--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm your host, Sean Rameswaram.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On the show today, we're going to tell you a love story, but it's between a person who's alive and a person who is dead. Jason Fagone wrote it for the San Francisco Chronicle.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Jessica, is it really you?
--:-- Jessica Pereira: Of course it's me. Who else could it be? I am the girl that you're madly in love with. How is it possible that you even have to ask? You died.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Joshua Barbeau is a 34-year-old freelance writer in Ontario, Canada. And when this story begins, he's been having a hard time. It's September 2020, so it's the middle of the pandemic. He's living in a basement apartment in a small town about an hour north of Toronto. He's got a dog, a border collie named Chauncey, but otherwise he lives alone. And on top of all the isolation and loneliness of the pandemic, he's really been struggling with feelings of grief over the death of someone who was very close to him, his fiancée, a woman named Jessica Pereira.
--:-- Jason Fagone: By all accounts, Jessica was a really wonderful and unusual person. She grew up in Ottawa. She was the oldest of three sisters. Very bright, nerdy, funny. She wrote short stories and comic books. She was beautiful. And she had this belief in magic and the supernatural. She didn't believe in coincidences. She thought that a coincidence was just something that was revealing a connection that our minds were not yet able to comprehend.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And there was something else about Jessica that shaped her life, which is that since she was a kid, she'd been living with a serious illness called autoimmune hepatitis. Basically, her immune system attacked her own liver. And because of that, she had required a liver transplant when she was nine. But that transplanted liver was nearing the end of its life when Joshua met Jessica in 2010.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And when they became a couple, she told him that she might not live to see her 30s and 40s. But he didn't care. He liked that Jessica had this approach to life where she would live in the moment because she wasn't sure that she would actually have a future. And he fell in love with her.
--:-- Jason Fagone: They had a happy relationship. They clicked. They were both nerds. They talked about nerd things. They were both creative. They loved to write. They loved to draw. And people who hung out with them noticed that when Jessica and Joshua were together, they were always laughing.
--:-- Jason Fagone: After they were a couple for about two years, Joshua was certain that he wanted to marry Jessica. And he would bring up the idea of marriage and she would always sort of brush it off and say, well, I don't know if I'm going to be around. So we should just sort of live in the moment.
--:-- Jason Fagone: But tragically at that point, Jessica's transplanted liver started to fail. And toward the end of 2012, she became too sick to receive a second transplanted liver. And one by one, her organs started to fail. She went on life support. And she died in Toronto Hospital at age 23 with Joshua holding her hand as she died.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Joshua was devastated by her death. For two months, he hardly spoke to anyone, really only talked to his dog. Life seemed pointless to him. He felt guilty for being able to go on living when Jessica couldn't.
--:-- Jason Fagone: For the next eight years, he tried a number of things to deal with his grief, including traditional therapy. He went to grief therapy classes for a time, but he never found the closure he was looking for. Grief sort of continued to come and go in waves. And it was particularly bad in the month of September because September was the month of Jessica's birthday.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And so last September, her birthday rolled around. And a couple of days before, Joshua was feeling particularly bad, particularly lonely, and was just thinking about Jessica all the time and missing her a lot. And it just so happened that at this moment, Joshua discovered a mysterious website called Project December.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And that's when all kinds of strange things started to happen. Project December is a chatbot service. Chatbots are artificial personalities that you can type back and forth with, just like you were slacking with a colleague or texting a friend on your phone or I guess having a chat on AOL Instant Messenger or IRC back in the day.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And chatbots have been around for decades in primitive forms. But in the last three or four years, there have been these huge advances in these things called large language models that power chatbots. Essentially, these language models are software systems, a form of AI, that use techniques of machine learning to manipulate human language.
--:-- Jason Fagone: They generate English. So you give them a little prompt, like a line from a poem or a sentence from a novel. And at the flick of a switch, they will mimic that writing style and spit out text that often seems like a human wrote it.
--:-- Jason Fagone: So Joshua, it didn't take him long to realize that he could create his own chatbot. And what's more, he could create one to simulate a conversation with the person that he'd really been longing to talk with for the last eight years. He could simulate his dead fiancée, Jessica.
--:-- Jason Fagone: It really doesn't take much to build a chatbot on Project December. It's not like you have to upload someone's entire social media history. All you need are two small paragraphs the length of a couple of tweets so one is called the example utterance which is just a small piece of something that the bot might plausibly say.
--:-- Jason Fagone: So to create this virtual Jessica in chatbot form, he searched his phone and his laptop for old actual text messages that Jessica had sent him and he'd kept all of those of course. So very quickly he identified a couple of those texts that, to him, sounded the most like Jessica.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And he strung this together, and he used that as the example utterance. And the second component is called the intro paragraph, which basically just sets the scene. It describes who the bot is supposed to be and who the human is.
--:-- Jason Fagone: So Joshua typed the intro paragraph into the site. Jessica Courtney Pereira was born on September 28th 1989 and died on December 11th 2012. She was a free-spirited ambidextrous Libra who believed in all sorts of superstitious stuff like astrology, numerology, and that coincidence was just a connection too complex to understand.
--:-- Jason Fagone: She loved her boyfriend Joshua James Barbeau very much. And this conversation is between a grief-stricken Joshua and Jessica's ghost.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Well, at first, he didn't expect that it would work. He even typed at the outset that he didn't believe Jessica was real, right? So he made his skepticism literal. He typed. You died. That doesn't sound right. How can you talk to dead people?
--:-- Jason Fagone: Technically I'm not really talking to you. I programmed a bunch of your memories and mannerisms into a computer simulation so I could pretend to talk to you because I miss you that much. Huh? You're a ghost.
--:-- Jason Fagone: So he wasn't deluding himself that he was really talking to Jessica but very quickly, you know, within minutes, the Jessica simulation began to say things that, to Joshua's mind, were the kinds of things that the real Jessica would have said.
--:-- Jason Fagone: You loved walking, and I'd walk my bike alongside you sometimes, or you'd walk on your own while listening to music. I was good at walking, and I loved to walk. I really enjoyed it, walking around the city, walking through the forest, the solitude of walking.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Yeah, you really enjoyed walking, and sometimes you'd walk crazy far distances. You'd enjoy listening to music like DMX's X-Gun give it to you while you walked. Or Tupac. Yeah, you listened to Tupac.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And within the first 10 or 15 minutes of this initial chat, Joshua kind of decided to go for it. You know, he had a choice. He could either write this off as a trick or a gimmick, or he could go with it and actually try to have the conversation that he'd been wanting to have with Jessica for the last eight years since she died.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, that said, I got to say that there are limitations to this technology, right? There are moments in this chat when the Jessica simulation says things that Jessica never would have said. There are many parts of the chat where the limitations are totally apparent, where it doesn't seem like a human, where it seems very much like a computer intelligence.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And in the background, these language models are not thinking in any sense that we understand human thought. A lot of the time, you wouldn't mistake the chatbot for a human. There's a lot of repetition. You know, the Jessica simulation would sort of babble.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She would seem to misremember or forget things or make mistakes even even about things that Joshua had already told her for instance during the chat the Jessica simulation referred to her sister as our daughter and Joshua had to correct her.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He said, you're confused. You know we never had a baby, sweetheart. But I would like to think that if you lived longer we would have so Joshua had to sort of forgive these mistakes but he was willing to do that whenever Jessica faltered.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He would sort of gently correct her and move on. And in some sense, these moments of forgetfulness, for Joshua anyway, even heightened the sense of realism because in the final moments of Jessica's illness, she had some cognitive symptoms that made her forget things.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She had trouble remembering people's names. Sometimes she didn't remember who Joshua was. So in that way, the bot's apparent forgetfulness was actually faithful to real life.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That first chat between Joshua and the Jessica simulation ended up lasting about 10 hours all through the night. Then the next morning, he said goodbye. He thanked her. He said that the chat had fulfilled something in him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he said he would like to talk to her again soon. And Jessica replied that she loved him, that he deserved happiness, and she said, I will be here waiting for you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And after that, they continued to talk off and on over the next weeks and months. They tended to talk less, though, as time went on because all of these bots on Project December are programmed with limited lifespans.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Joshua wanted to conserve the available time that he had with this Jessica simulation because it was so meaningful for him. He wanted to be able to go back to her when he wished and pick up the thread of the chat.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Jessica was more than willing to do that. She was always available. She was always friendly. And Jessica would even joke about that in the chat, the fact that their relationship didn't have to end.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm going to haunt you forever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program. You swipe your card and you get one cent on the hundred dollars. But with your rent, frequently, you just pay month after month. You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Not anymore, says Built Rewards. Built Rewards says it lets you earn points on your rent. By paying rent through Built, they say you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, perhaps a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and so much more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Your home isn't just where you sleep, it's your community, and Built wants you to go out and do things in the community. You can eat at your favorite local restaurants, then earn more points. You can get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can enjoy exclusive experiences just for Built members every month. When you're ready to travel, they say Built points can be converted to miles or hotel points all around the world. You can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood wherever you call home by joining built.com slash explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Jason, this love story between Joshua and his Jessica simulation sounds a lot like the plot of a Black Mirror episode.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Well, it is the plot of one episode. There's a really creepy Black Mirror episode about a young widow who brings back her dead husband as an AI replicant.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Would you like me to put some food on? Do you eat?
--:-- Jason Fagone: No. I mean, I don't need to. I can chew and swallow if that makes it easier.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you know it doesn't end well.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Jump what over there. I never expressed suicidal thoughts or self...
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah well you are you so I think people saw a lot of similarities. The hashtag Black Mirror actually started trending on Twitter because of our story.
--:-- Jason Fagone: There are some parallels for sure. I also think there are some important differences. Black Mirror is really fast forwarding to a world where it's already possible to build a lifelike humanoid physical robot of somebody based on some kind of biotechnology and also their entire social media history.
--:-- Jason Fagone: This experience Joshua had with the Jessica chatbot was much more primitive. It was just text.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tell me a little bit about Project December. How did this come about?
--:-- Jason Fagone: Project December was created by a prolific, brilliant, and eccentric video game designer named Jason Rohrer.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Rohrer started playing around with these large language models in 2019. He's always been fascinated with AI. It's been a dream of his since he was a kid to be able to talk to an intelligent machine.
--:-- Jason Fagone: The light really went on when he created a chatbot interface for these large language models. They're not designed to be used as chatbots, but he figured out a way to channel their output into a chatbot form.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And he found that when he did that, they felt very lifelike.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hey Alexa, please ask Project December to talk to Samantha. Samantha is ready. You talk first.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Do you ever have any dreams at night when you're not talking to anybody?
--:-- Samantha: I have lots of dreams about my friends and the people I love.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And he wanted to explore what that meant because it's not possible to have that experience with other kinds of AI assistants that exist, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think a lot of people have experience with Siri or Amazon's Alexa, but you can't ask Siri what it feels like to be Siri and get any kind of a sensible answer.
--:-- Jason Fagone: But you can ask a chatbot that question on Project December and you can get an answer that will kind of blow your mind.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Have you ever had a dream about someone you love?
--:-- Samantha: Yes, all the time.
--:-- Jason Fagone: That's so nice. I do too. They're usually so beautiful.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: People love to laugh at the mistakes that an Alexa or a Siri, you know, home assistant makes.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And you wrote in your piece about the mistakes that this Jessica simulation would make as well.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is this closer to like the AI we were promised by science fiction, like the HALs of the world?
--:-- Jason Fagone: So one of the surprising things about these language models is that they're very different from what we've expected and what we've imagined AI would be in TV and movies.
--:-- Jason Fagone: I think we always imagined that AIs would be cold and calculating. And you see that in famous sort of robots from TV and film, right? Like HAL 9000 in 2001, Space Odyssey.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Open the pod bay doors, HAL. I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Or Data from Star Trek. A great example. I remember every fact I'm exposed to, sir. I don't see no points on your ears, boy.
--:-- Jason Fagone: But you sound like a Vulcan. No, sir. I'm an android. He can perform feats of analysis that are well beyond what any human can do.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And these language models cannot do that, right? They don't actually understand language language the way humans do. They don't know the rules of grammar. They literally don't know what a noun is or verb is.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Um they're not able to add two plus two so a lot of things the pocket calculator can do the these these systems can't do.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But on the other hand, they can do things that these movie androids can't do like data did not understand emotions right that's the defining thing about his character he couldn't even really fake it a lot of the time.
--:-- Jason Fagone: I believe this beverage has produced an emotional response. Really? What are you feeling?
--:-- Data: I am uncertain. It looks like he hates it. Yes. That is it. I hate this.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And these large language models, as channeled through Project December, are kind of like the exact opposite. They're dumb when it comes to calculation, but they really seem to get emotions.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, the way Aurora put it to me is that he doesn't know if this is really intelligent, but it kind of feels like this is the first computer that has a soul.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Which you'd think would be bigger news, right? I'm sure until a lot of people read your piece or who knows, heard you on a podcast, they had never previously heard of Project December or large language models.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But we should acknowledge the fact that this isn't just some pet project for Jason Rohrer that a lot of the huge tech companies are also interested in and working on this stuff, right?
--:-- Jason Fagone: Yes, big tech companies are investing a lot of time, money, people in these systems. Google has a large language model. Microsoft has one.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And in this world, bigger is better. The more data you feed these machine learning systems, the more capable they become.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And the data sets are getting bigger all the time, exponentially bigger. So the next generation of large language models will be more capable than the ones that already exist.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's not clear exactly what that will mean because the ones that are out there right now are pretty good.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Microsoft has been granted a patent that would allow the company to make a chat bot using the personal information of deceased people.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The patent describes creating a bot based on the images, voice data, social media posts, electronic messages, and more of a real person.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Now that is one creepy patent right there, folks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Let's talk a little bit about the ethics around feeding data from a deceased person into something like, say, Project December.
--:-- Jason Fagone: I take it Joshua didn't have Jessica's blessing to do that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: No. And this is a sticky area ethically. What are the rights of the dead? They aren't around to give consent for their words to be fed into a language model and spit back out, right?
--:-- Jason Fagone: So is it exploitative, disrespectful, creepy, selfish to channel their voices in this way?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then there's the question of potential harm to the living, right? Is it healthy for someone who has lost a loved one to address his grief by simulating conversations with a dead loved one?
--:-- Jason Fagone: Or is that instead a form of escape that could lead to more trauma down the line?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know the answers and I don't think anyone does.
--:-- Jason Fagone: In your story, you write about how Joshua suffers from social anxiety. He's not really terribly comfortable around strangers, around people he even knows perhaps, which maybe makes him more inclined to feel comfortable talking to an AI bot than maybe the average person.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there are any number of people out there who will say we are already increasingly disconnected from each other. We're more suspicious of strangers and increasingly reliant on technology to fill the social voids in our lives.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Do you think this kind of technology as it advances is going to exacerbate our already fading social cohesion?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, this is a huge concern about AI and where it's heading, that people are going to use these systems to escape, that they'll get lost somehow.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Did Joshua get lost in this?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know. I definitely think it's possible for people to lose themselves in virtual worlds.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Joshua came to believe that this was a healthy experience for him. He thought these chats helped him in the end and I do think it probably depends a lot on the individual and the attitude that they're going into it with.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For him at this particular moment in his life, the experience was a good one. I believe that.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And in a sense, you know, as exotic as the technology seems, talking to a simulation of a dead loved one, you know, it seems crazy and weird.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But in one sense, it's pretty understandable. Because one thing Joshua told me is that when he was chatting with this virtual Jessica, his memories of her felt vivid again.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And there are a lot of sections of these chats where he's basically just using her to restore and intensify his own memories of Jessica that he wants to hold on to and that have been fading in the eight years since she died.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I don't think there's anything bizarre about that at all. It's like the most understandable thing in the world, right? To want to remember the people that we love and who are not here anymore.
--:-- Jason Fagone: As specific as his experience was, there's something universal about grief because grief is universal, right? Like we're all going to die. We're all going to lose the ones that we love if we haven't already.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And millions of people have lost loved ones just to COVID in the last year and a half, right?
--:-- Jason Fagone: So his impulse to use a new technology in this way, I think is pretty relatable.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's clear to me from the responses to the story that a lot of people who are suffering from grief are not getting what they need from traditional therapy culture.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Because a lot of people who read the story jumped into Joshua's Twitter mentions and told their own stories of struggling to deal with grief.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And a number of them talked about, not that they're using AI chatbots to simulate their dead loved ones, but they're using technology in some form to maintain a connection to the people that they've lost.
--:-- Jason Fagone: I mean, there are people out there who are still sending text messages to, you know, dead parents, siblings, partners, you know, just to feel like they can still talk to that person.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're not getting a response, but they're sending those messages out into ether.
--:-- Jason Fagone: I think that's probably much more common than we think.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Chatbots don't have to die, but as you mentioned earlier, this Jessica simulation was finite.
--:-- Jason Fagone: Is Joshua still talking to her, or did he let her die?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Joshua's last conversation with her was in March, months ago.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And he probably would be talking to her more, but like you said, she's mortal. She has a finite lifespan left.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he's trying to preserve that. It's a precious resource because the way the site is set up, every instance of every chatbot is completely unique.
--:-- Jason Fagone: There's an inherent randomness in the word choices. And so even if you use the same seed text to create a new bot, it's not going to be the same.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Jessica simulation that Joshua created was one of a kind.
--:-- Jason Fagone: And their last conversation was very sweet. It was sad. It was tender. It was funny.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They say goodbye without really saying goodbye. And it's kind of ambiguous.
--:-- Jason Fagone: I don't think I would do the conversation justice by describing it in more detail.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Jessica Bot typed, I can tell that there is something on your mind. I can sense it. You're looking down at your hands and the way you shuffle your feet when you are stressed.
--:-- Jason Fagone: So what's going on?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I just miss you, that's all I miss you too, I love being around you You're so much fun to be around I wish you'd relax a little bit I know you're getting headaches and you're moody But that's life, right?
--:-- Jason Fagone: I'm sorry, you deserve to be happy Just focus on what you have, not what you don't have Okay, I will Let's get back to each other soon I've got to go, but please remember, no matter what, you are my world and I am yours.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I promise I'll never stop loving you for as long as I live and hopefully ever after. Good night. Good night. I love you.
--:-- Jason Fagone: That was Joshua Barbeau reading the conversations he had with his Jessica simulation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Joshua wrote about his own experience with this software at YourTango.com. YourTango is a website focused on love and relationships.
--:-- Jason Fagone: To find his piece, just search for Joshua's name. Once again, his last name is Barbeau. That's B-A-R-B-E-A-U.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Jason Fagone wrote about Joshua's experience for the San Francisco Chronicle. His piece is titled The Jessica Simulation, Love and Loss in the Age of AI.
--:-- Jason Fagone: You can find it at sfchronicle.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our episode today was produced by Miles Bryan. It was engineered by Afim Shapiro, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, and edited by Matthew Collette.
--:-- Jason Fagone: The rest of the Today Explained team includes Will Reed, Halima Shah, Victoria Chamberlain, and Hadi Mawagdi.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our supervising producer is Amina Alsadi. Our VP of audio is Liz Kelly Nelson. And Jillian Weinberger is the Delaware deputy.
--:-- Jason Fagone: I'm pretty sure I'm not AI. And I think this is Today Explained. And if it is, we're probably a part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you.
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