The Moscow murders

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Noel King: The police department in Moscow, Idaho, publishes a daily log of calls that come in. On November 11th, a DUI, a disabled vehicle, an unconscious person outside of a frat house, a drug search, among others. Moscow is a college town. November 12th is a lot of the same. Loud music, officer responded, another DUI, another drug search, a stray puppy that was too skittish for anyone to grab a hold of. Then on November 13th, there's a report in the log that very rarely appears in Moscow. In fact, it hadn't appeared for the previous seven years. Homicide. In the three weeks since, police in Moscow have foundered. The homicides, four of them, are unsolved. They do not have a suspect. Residents are scared. And rumors, persistent distracting rumors ginned up by internet sleuths, have introduced chaos into the investigation.

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Noel King: It's coming up on Today Explained.

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Noel King: I'm Noelle King.

Sally Kruzig: I'm Sally Kruzig, a reporter with the Idaho Statesman. She's been covering the murders in Moscow from her home base in Boise.

Noel King: Sally, what happened in Moscow last month?

Sally Kruzig: So what we know happened is on Saturday, November 12th, four students who attended the University of Idaho were out on the town. Two of them were at a bar and two of them were at a fraternity party. By 1.56 a.m., they were all back home. The three women lived together in a house just off campus with two other roommates. And one of the victims was a boyfriend who was staying the night. Four of the people in that house that night were killed.

Noel King: Tell me about these four people. Tell me about the victims.

Sally Kruzig: So two of them were Madison. She went by Maddie and Kaylee. Kaylee was a senior. She was just about to graduate in December. She had plans to move to Austin. She was known for being outspoken and adventurous. She loved to play pranks. Then you had Maddie. Maddie was described as sweet, funny. Multiple people I spoke to brought up her deep love of the color pink. These girls were absolutely beautiful. They had been friends since sixth grade. And every day they did homework together. They came to our house together. They shared everything. And in the end, they died together. Zanna, she was a junior. She was really passionate about her major in marketing. She loved to attend live music shows. She was known for being driven and always positive. And then Ethan, her boyfriend, was a freshman. Well, Ethan tolerated school. For those of you guys who knew him really well, he tolerated school. He loved the social life. He was also a triplet and was really close to his brother and sister who actually also attended school with him.

Noel King: We were having, trying to have a conversation really quickly about our favorite memory. We can't come up with one. I mean, he literally lit up every room. These were kids, it sounds like, who were fairly carefree without a lot of problems.

Sally Kruzig: Right. Yeah. You know, if you look through their social media, you just see so many silly dance videos, photos surrounded by friends attending Greek parties. Guys, I met Charlie D'Amelio. These were popular kids. You know, people describe them using phrases like outgoing and life of the party.

Noel King: In terms of what you understood about your sister's life, was there any threat that she had ever had? Was there anybody who was coming after her on social media? Did she have a past, a problem with a boyfriend or a friend? Anything to inform why somebody would do something so violent to her, her friend, her other roommate, and her boyfriend?

Sally Kruzig: Absolutely. There's nothing. There's no boy problem. There's no threat. There's no high-risk lifestyle that could have indicated this. It has taken all of us completely by shock, and we have absolutely no ideas.

Noel King: So what we know is that the four students were out of the house. Ethan and Zanna were attending a fraternity party on campus. Maddie and Kaylee were spending time at a downtown bar before grabbing some pasta. At a nearby food truck, and then getting a ride home. By 1.56, they were all home. Phone records show that at 2.52, they were still alive. And we know this because Maddie and Kaylee, at around 2.30, started calling Kaylee's recent ex-boyfriend. They called him 10 times, and the last call came in at 2.52.

Sally Kruzig: You know, I know the phone calls sound kind of weird, but actually Kaylee's sister says this was a really normal thing for Kaylee to do. She was known for just late at night. She'd call you over and over and over until you finally picked up. And then she would just make you chat with her. You know, she'd ask you, what should I have for dinner tomorrow?

Noel King: At 2.52, they appear to still be alive. And between 3 a.m. and 6 a.m., someone went into their bedrooms and killed them. Two bodies were found on the second floor. Two bodies were found on the third floor. Maddie and Kaylee lived on the third floor.

Sally Kruzig: And you know one really sad detail that I think hit home for a lot of people is that Maddie and Kaylee, these two best friends since childhood, were found killed in the same bed, in the same bedroom together. You know, Kaylee's dad talked about how they did everything in life together, and then in the end, they died together. It comforts us. It lets us know that they were with their best friends in the whole world.

Noel King: Sally, did someone break into the house? There were no signs of forced entry.

Sally Kruzig: So the house had a code that you would punch in to get into it. And this was one of those houses that had been passed on from student to student. It was a party house. And so we're not sure if maybe someone knew the code. But what we do know is there were no signs of forced entry. Two bodies were found on the third floor, two bodies on the second floor. And then on the bottom floor, which is more of a walkout basement, the two additional surviving roommates were sleeping.

Noel King: They apparently slept in late and, you know, didn't hear anything to cause them at least enough alarm to call the police. They wake up and something caused them to be concerned about their roommates. We know that they tried to call Kaylee in the morning, but something caused them to be concerned about their roommates, so they summoned additional friends to the house. And as a group, the roommates and the friends, they called the police. They were very distraught. They were passing the phone back and forth, and they told the police, "We think someone is unconscious and isn't waking up."

Sally Kruzig: Police show up. They enter the second and third floor, and they find the four dead students.

Noel King: Where do the police stand today? Is there a suspect? Is there a motive?

Sally Kruzig: It's three weeks in, and there is still no suspect. We don't know what the motive is, but police have said that they seem to have reason to think. The community has nothing to worry about. Based on details of the scene, we believe this was an isolated, targeted attack on our victims. But it's kind of confusing because they'd say it's a targeted, isolated attack, but they haven't given us any reason why they believe this. And they also are saying they have no suspect. We do not have a suspect at this time, and that individual is still out there.

Noel King: So it's confusing about how that can both be true. They know it's a targeted killing. They don't have a suspect. So the community is understandably very on edge. They are not sure what to believe. You know, how can we believe this isn't going to happen again? How can we believe that I am not at risk of the same thing if we have no idea why you think this?

Sally Kruzig: Three weeks in, no suspect. What's happening there right now? What's it like there?

Noel King: People are really scared in the community right now. And they're also getting more and more frustrated with police as they continue to refuse to release information.

Sally Kruzig: People are still talking about it. It's kind of something that's on our minds every day. Everyone is just speculating, obviously, because the police haven't given us a ton of information. And that's how the rumors start.

Noel King: Thanksgiving break was just about to come up before these murders. And right after they happened, it seemed just there was an exodus of students. They all decided to go home early.

Sally Kruzig: You know, my colleague the next day was knocking on doors in the neighborhood, and this is a neighborhood that's, you know, all these homes are rented out by students, and it was difficult for her to find anyone because so many of them were too scared to stay on campus.

Noel King: The rest of the community is also you know just as scared. I talked to people who said they'd started carrying a gun. Someone who said, "I don't have a gun, so I started carrying a knife in case I have to fend off someone else with a knife."

Sally Kruzig: The community has just been so on edge and just the lack of information from police has contributed to that a lot because they don't know where to direct their fears.

Noel King: Moscow is a small town. It has a population of about 25,000 people in a very rural area, and it hasn't had a murder in seven years.

Sally Kruzig: I think the Moscow police don't have a lot of experience with how to handle this kind of murder, this, you know, brutal killing with no obvious immediate suspect.

Noel King: And even more so, the national media attention, the, you know, national internet attention that has been on this case, they just haven't known how to handle it.

Sally Kruzig: Support for today's show comes from Adio.

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Noel King: Let's be honest. Are you happy with your job? Like, really happy?

Sally Kruzig: The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that.

Noel King: Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown, or one we never wanted in the first place.

Sally Kruzig: But still, we stick it out. And we give reasons like, what if the next move is even worse? I already put years into this place, and maybe the most common one is everyone kind of miserable at work.

Noel King: But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving.

Sally Kruzig: It's time to get unstuck. It's time for Strawberry.me.

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Sally Kruzig: Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, create a plan, build your confidence, and keeps you accountable along the way.

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Sally Kruzig: Go to strawberry.me slash unstuck to claim a special offer.

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Noel King: It's Today Explained. We're back with Sally Kruzig of the Idaho Statesman.

Sally Kruzig: And Sally, the police are trying to solve these murders. The FBI is involved, the county sheriff, the state police. So law enforcement is there in a big way.

Noel King: But it's not just the police, is it?

Sally Kruzig: No, we have seen this whole field of Internet sleuths pop up around this case. Stabbing is personal. It's very messy, okay? So if four people were murdered and it was one suspect who did this, their clothes had to have blood all over it.

Noel King: There are Facebook groups with thousands and thousands of people in them who are, you know, posting all the time. Hey guys, so remember the other day I showed you guys the ladder that was beside the house where the four students were murdered. Well, I actually may have the reason why the latter is there.

Sally Kruzig: So one of my friends sent me a couple pictures last night. There are Reddit threads about this. There are Instagram pages dedicated to who they think did it.

Noel King: What the police aren't telling us is that they probably know who the murderer is, and they've probably known since day one or two of the investigation.

Sally Kruzig: It's just been amazing how these armchair detectives, these internet sleuths, have flocked to this case to try to solve it themselves.

Noel King: And they speak that way. I recently saw someone saying, why won't the police tell us this information? Don't they know we're trying to solve it?

Sally Kruzig: Their shoes play a big role in this, okay? It reminds me a lot of the Gabby Petito case.

Noel King: And I think one reason is because both these cases, there wasn't an immediate answer. But there were all these little clues you could put together.

Sally Kruzig: You could comb through the victim's social media pages. You could read their comments and, you know, interpret them. And people like to be detectives. They like to feel like, if I just find all the right clues, if I start putting it together, I can solve this.

Noel King: And I think you had that with both the Gabby Petito case and this Idaho case. Because there's no immediate answer, people, you know, put on their detective hats and want to try to solve it themselves.

Sally Kruzig: I came across a neighbor who gave an interview. And obviously the murder was done with like a hunting knife.

Noel King: And it's almost like when you hear him talk in this video, it's like almost like when you're a hunter and you're experiencing that adrenaline high.

Sally Kruzig: In these videos, he's like trying not to smile because it's like he got away with it. He got that trophy. He got that kill.

Noel King: Like Gabby Petito, these victims were young. They were white. They were conventionally attractive.

Sally Kruzig: And I think it's allowed people to latch onto them as a victim that they want to care about.

Noel King: Okay, so the internet becomes obsessed with this. And let me ask you, if I am to look online, where am I going to see this most?

Sally Kruzig: It's on Reddit. It's on Facebook. It's on Instagram. It's on web sleuths. Anywhere there's social media, I have basically seen accounts trying to solve this and people, you know, debating amongst themselves.

Noel King: You know, I think this isn't new. I think humans have always been captivated by crime.

Sally Kruzig: I think people probably sat around their kitchen table and debated who was Jack the Ripper.

Noel King: What's different now is that in the age of social media, these debates are public.

Sally Kruzig: Families of the victims are reading it. Friends are reading it. The people who they are naming as suspects are reading it.

Noel King: Are these internet sleuths having a real-world effect on people in Moscow?

Sally Kruzig: Yeah, I'll give you a couple examples. I saw at one point people going to Kayleigh's teenage sister's Instagram to comment on her photos with questions about the case.

Noel King: At one point, her younger sister was arguing with this internet sleuth account who was insisting the roommates must have done it.

Sally Kruzig: And her sister was saying, no, they wouldn't have done that. They loved Maddie and Kaylee.

Noel King: And you see them going back and forth, back and forth. And the sister is getting more and more upset as she's arguing with this complete stranger who is convinced they know who did it.

Sally Kruzig: Another example is, if you recall, Kaylee and Maddie stopped by a food truck on their way home. This food truck has a live video through Twitch where people can kind of watch everything that's happening outside the food truck.

Noel King: Hello. Hi. Welcome back.

Sally Kruzig: And the internet discovered that you could see Kaylee and Maddie walk up to the food truck, make their order, and then wait for their food.

Noel King: And in this video, you see Kaylee and Maddie have this brief interaction with this guy wearing a hoodie.

Sally Kruzig: And you know you can interpret it as him being annoyed at them. Some people felt like they were avoiding him.

Noel King: It's hard to say. Like I said, the interaction was very minor.

Sally Kruzig: And people have all these interpretations of what they were feeling and thinking. But the internet decided that this guy must have done it.

Noel King: If you were so concerned about the girls getting home and took off to your parents' cabin five hours away right after this year's alibi.

Sally Kruzig: Why weren't you the one to give them a safe ride home? Too much evidence that way, right?

Noel King: And police finally had to come out and say, we have looked into him and we do not believe he did it.

Sally Kruzig: Now, other information that we're learning here tonight detectives believe the other two surviving roommates or the male in this grub truck surveillance video are involved in this crime.

Noel King: But for days you had everyone going after this person convinced he must have killed these girls.

Sally Kruzig: Based on what you've told us, it sounds like people on the Internet are forcing the police in Moscow to react to theories that have sprung up on the Internet and which are not correct.

Noel King: And in some cases are really genuinely hurtful.

Sally Kruzig: One bizarre aspect has been that when police make a new public statement, maybe they hold a press conference, the majority of that statement is debunking rumors.

Noel King: A lot of people have expressed their desire to help. And the best thing that most people can do to help is to stop with any kind of rumors and just seek official information that comes out of the Moscow Police Department.

Sally Kruzig: They have had to say, we do not believe it was the roommates. We do not believe it was the man in the Twitch video.

Noel King: It got so bad and there were just so many rumors that they created a website with a list of questions and answers addressing all of the rumors.

Sally Kruzig: And, you know, police have said that people are calling and emailing in with tips. You know, they read something on the Internet and they go to tell police. And so they're getting these same questions over and over and over again.

Noel King: And they are just having to spend so much time and resources addressing these Internet rumors that, you know, have no factual basis to them.

Sally Kruzig: And at the same time, I mean, the people posting these TikToks and these Reddit threads, they would argue that they are not malicious. They believe this is a tragedy also and they want to help.

Noel King: How do you square that as a reporter covering this?

Sally Kruzig: I think they genuinely want to solve the case. I think they genuinely want to help. The problem being, you know, how much can the internet actually help?

Noel King: You know, we have not seen many cases where it was the internet who, you know, cracked this case wide open.

Sally Kruzig: And so the question becomes, are they helping more than they're hurting? Or are they hurting more than they're helping.

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Noel King: I am responsible culture 43 on Reddit. I am one of the moderators for the Moscow murder subreddit.

Sally Kruzig: I got interested in this case because I do live in Washington, so it was pretty local and it was big news.

Noel King: And it was pretty unique in how the case was because it was like a pretty big shock for such a small college town.

Sally Kruzig: So I was following it as it was always on like the local news and then looking at Reddit.

Noel King: I try to consider myself to be more of like an ethical true crime person.

Sally Kruzig: And we really wanted to make sure that this was going to be a subreddit that had the news and we didn't allow any disrespectful conversations towards the victims, their families or people that might be involved that haven't been identified by the police.

Noel King: I just talked to a reporter for a newspaper in Idaho who said her reporting shows that internet sleuths have done some real harm to victims' families by giving oxygen to rumors.

Sally Kruzig: They've sold the police down because the police are so busy responding to rumors that have popped up on internet forums.

Noel King: How do you reckon with the fact that perhaps what you're doing is really distracting here, distracting to the people who are supposed to solve this thing?

Sally Kruzig: Yeah, I mean, that's definitely a big thing that we take into consideration, and we've been changing our rules to kind of like, you know, lock down as we were talking about before on some of the speculation and rumors and theories that people have been coming up with.

Noel King: We've been trying to keep everything to those singular threads, I think, in comparison to some other of the other subreddits that have kind of popped up in reaction to us having such strong rules because it has taken a lot of the internet over.

Sally Kruzig: I know that there's a lot of like Facebook groups. There's about three other subreddits that have also popped up that are definitely a little bit more of like the Wild West than I would say our subreddit is.

Noel King: So we definitely have been trying to adjust our rules as things have been escalating to make sure that we're keeping it locked down.

Sally Kruzig: I think it's great to have like one place on Reddit that people can go to to be able to get the information.

Noel King: Also, everybody that I work with on the mod team is all really great. We're all of like the same mindset of respecting victims, their families, not having like propaganda and trying to just have like a really respectful place on the internet to be able to just get the news for this case that is very local for all of us on the mod team.

Noel King: I was on the Reddit for a couple of hours this morning. And, you know, it's possible that I'm just a very old school journalist. And I hear what you're saying about respect. But there's a lot of stuff on this Reddit that is just, from a journalistic perspective, that is just like wild speculation.

Sally Kruzig: Do you really think this is responsible?

Noel King: So definitely when it comes to Reddit, we as the moderators do the best that we can to be able to pull down any content that we find does not go in line with our separate rules or the Reddit rules.

Sally Kruzig: But as it is a community, we also still need people to report comments or posts that don't go in line with our rules that aren't filtered out by our bots.

Noel King: And so sometimes we do miss the mark on being able to find those things, but we do definitely try our best.

Sally Kruzig: I know as a team, we definitely want people to say if they're speculating or if they're doing their own theory. And that's not something that would be in line with our content that we agree with.

Noel King: Do you think that you and the subreddit can and will help solve this case?

Sally Kruzig: Definitely not. That is not even like the purpose of the subreddit. It was for news. And I definitely don't think that armchair detectives from across the country that have no law enforcement background, no investigative background will be able to do anything to solve this case.

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Noel King: Today's show was produced by Miles Bryan and Hady Mawajdeh.

Sally Kruzig: It was edited by Matt Collette.

Noel King: Fact-checked by Laura Bullard.

Sally Kruzig: Engineered by Paul Robert Mounsey and Efim Shapiro.

Noel King: And hosted by Noel King.

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Noel King: Thanks for listening to Today Explained.