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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's kind of hard to wrap your head around the scale of the catastrophic fires in Los Angeles. They've burned 40,000 acres throughout the city. That's roughly the size of Washington, D.C. Some estimates are putting the damage upwards of $250 billion. That'll make these the most economically devastating fires in the history of the United States. And then one thing people can't seem to get over is that in this wildfire-prone city, in a wildfire-prone state, firefighters battling these blazes somehow ran out of water.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We have no water on these streets, and we have multiple structures taken off. Why is there no water in the hydrants, Governor? That's all being like, that's all, literally. Is it going to be different next time? They have no water. They had no water in the fire hydrants today in Los Angeles. It was a terrible thing. And we're going to get that done. Everyone gets that this is tragic.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On Today Explained, we're going to try to understand why this has to be political. Support for Today Explained comes from BetterHelp. Let me tell you a true story. Last weekend, I got an email from a listener who wanted to discuss their problems with me. And I said, look, I don't think that this is about me personally. At least I hope it's not. Why don't you try BetterHelp.com slash Explained? Absolute truth. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Find the one with BetterHelp. The one is not me, guys. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash explain. That's BetterHelp.com slash explain.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained. Greg Pierce is the director of the UCLA Water Resources Group and a professor at UCLA, which means, of course, he lives in L.A. And like just about everyone else who lives in L.A., he knows people affected by these fires.
--:-- Greg Pierce: Yeah, I'm in Los Angeles. I am OK. Everyone I know is safe. A close relative lost their home and plenty of people were evacuated and facing much worse things than me. But yes, I am in Los Angeles.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How quickly, when these fires started, Greg, did you look at this and say, oh gosh, they're going to run out of water? Or did you have that thought at all?
--:-- Greg Pierce: I can't say that I had that thought independently. And I guess in some ways, I think, you know, it's a little bit of a boring story. But what the public officials have been saying, though, is true by my judgment. And everyone I've talked to who actually knows about the topic, which is that urban water systems aren't equipped to fight wildfires of this nature.
--:-- Greg Pierce: But when I first heard or actually saw the smoke plume as I was coming to UCLA that day, I didn't know that it was going to be such an intense fire and that our ability to fight it would be so poor. Can you help people understand how exactly firefighters would run out of water while fighting these wildfires in the Pacific Palisades?
--:-- Greg Pierce: Yeah, it's pretty simple in a way, which is that the water system in the Pacific Palisades, which is the city of Los Angeles' water system, the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, the largest and certainly among the most technically competent water systems in the county, if not the state, is not set up to fight wildfires. The fire hydrants and the fire flow are really there for everyday fires. Structure fires, whatnot. And that capacity to fight wildfires is not something that I'm aware of that any water system in the world has, especially when they grew this quickly, this fast.
--:-- Greg Pierce: We all know that this has been an unprecedented event. We also know that fire hydrants are not constructed to deal with this type of massive devastation and that the number one problem, especially on Tuesday, I mean on Wednesday, was the fact that we weren't able to do the air support because of the winds. The municipal water systems that service our homes and businesses continue to work effectively. However, they are not designed to fight wildfires.
--:-- Greg Pierce: A firefight with multiple fire hydrants drawing water from the system for several hours is unsustainable. This is a known fact. Our hydrant ran dry about two minutes ago. And is that the water pressure issue? Because there's so many engines tapping the grid and multiple grids, we're basically just taking all the water out of the grid.
--:-- Greg Pierce: That's not to say that if some things had not been different, that the water would have lasted a bit longer and gone a bit further. But it certainly wasn't going to stop a fire of this nature in its tracks and probably wasn't going to even make a big dent. I understand that's a kind of a frustrating or non-intuitive answer for folks. But that is the reality. And again, it's been confirmed by everyone who seems to know about the topic.
--:-- Greg Pierce: You know, first of all, part of the reason why the water pressure runs dry is that, I mean, rationally, individual homeowners are leaving on their hoses and other things trying to water their own place. So the pressure is dropping because a lot of the private property around is trying to water. But when firefighters run out of water, the pressure runs low. They go to private pools because there's a lot of private pools in these areas, which tend to be quite wealthy. And they started to drive tanker trucks up with water to try to fight the fire.
--:-- Greg Pierce: But if they don't have water, they need to get off the ground for their own safety, get out of that area because there's nothing they can do. And just rely purely on sort of aerial approaches and dropping other types of wildfire retardants or foams. So it a pretty bleak picture If they run out of water they basically useless especially if there not some truck around that got reserves
--:-- Greg Pierce: Yeah, and it is the, I mean, you've heard the really big frustration of the fire agency and agencies that they are entirely reliant on the water systems to provide the water. It's not like the firefighters have their own reserve of water. So they do show up and, you know, hope, pray it works. And in this case, it didn't work as well as anyone would have liked. But again, I think in some ways that was to be expected if we were realistic about it.
--:-- Greg Pierce: I saw someone just post a map on social media of the Palisades fire, and then they circled the ocean right next to it. And they said, you know, here's some water, guys. Why don't we just put a hose in the ocean and then spray the fire with the ocean? Okay, can someone please explain to me why they can't use the water from the ocean that's like right by where a lot of the fire is happening to put out the fire?
--:-- Greg Pierce: For people who just can't fathom how these hydrants ran dry and they didn't just stick a straw in the ocean, what are they missing? Yeah, I do get the intuition, but they're missing several things. Most important traditionally, although you could say maybe none of this should matter because it's an emergency, is that saltwater is corrosive, So it damages sort of the infrastructure and the vehicles that pick up the water for future use.
--:-- Greg Pierce: And it damages the environment and the ecology when you drop a bunch of salt water on landscapes and leads to other sort of toxic cleanup effects. Another aspect of this was the unusually strong wind event that occurred. And so asking people to go fly helicopters or I guess maybe planes and try to pick up water from the ocean in those conditions, you're putting people at great risk directly.
--:-- Greg Pierce: And that also made fighting the fire, actually for aspects that don't involve water like aerial firefighting, dropping wildfire, foams on the fire, which are incredibly important in hilly areas like this, nearly impossible in the early hours of the fire. But yes, in some other ways, again, just our systems, our water systems and our power systems, we're not built to fight wildfires encroaching right in our urban areas.
--:-- Greg Pierce: So in order to think about really being robust to fight them or really think about not rebuilding in certain areas, but to do that, build back, build back so resilient that we could actually fight a fire of this nature. We're just talking about, no one knows the exact number, but five to ten times more expense. So it probably can be done, but it'll just be incredibly expensive.
--:-- Greg Pierce: What would it look like if there were the money to build these houses along with water systems that actually were sufficient to put out these kinds of fires? What would that look like and how would it be done? It's really just a lot more and sort of, we would say, positive redundancy in three aspects. One is the actual water supply, the raw water. I mean, there's a lot of misinformation about how water from Northern California to Southern California would have made a difference. It wouldn't.
--:-- Greg Pierce: But just having more water in that specific area that happened to have the extraordinarily bad luck of having a reservoir offline is a big factor, as well as the infrastructure. And you heard a lot about fire hydrants. There's not super clear evidence around the fire hydrants performing poorly, but certainly having top of the line and more fire hydrants, as well as tanks, holding tanks.
--:-- Greg Pierce: This isn't very exciting stuff. You need all of that. But the biggest thing is probably improvements, some of which aren't technologically feasible at this moment, around how to move water around. And that's really about power and how quickly you can move water around a network. And there are some core sort of physical limitations we still face with moving water quickly up hills that we have to, I guess, burst through, as it were, if we really want to make systems like this work in hilly areas.
--:-- Greg Pierce: But you're saying the expense makes this an impossibility. So absent the money to invest to make these communities safe, what do we do? It sounds like we're going to rebuild in the same neighborhoods, and we're not going to make it safer to live there. Where does that leave us? Yeah, that's a question a lot of people are asking who are honest about this.
--:-- Greg Pierce: But yes, it appears the politics, you know, I'm not insensitive to the personal loss, had personal loss in my family through one of these fires. But the politics are dictating that apparently we're going to try to rebuild back everywhere. Don't turn your back. Don't walk away because we want you to come back, rebuild and rebuild. With so many homes and businesses lost, we are already putting plans in place to make sure that we aggressively rebuild.
--:-- Greg Pierce: My office is leading the city effort to clear the way. Red tape, bureaucracy, all of it must go. I do want to make it clear, though, I think we can do maybe 50% to even 200% better with some expensive but not crazily expensive adjustments that would help us fight the typical fire better. But if a wildfire of the same nature or worse occurs, which is not outside the realm of possibility, then yeah, we're looking at a 5 to 15 times more expensive system.
--:-- Greg Pierce: And we could do that. We could pay for that. But that's a societal choice. And there are all sorts of sort of trade-off questions and societal value questions there that are really difficult to sort through. It's a political question, isn't it? Oh, absolutely.
--:-- Greg Pierce: And you've already seen the politics at the city level, at the state level, and the federal level play into this. There's a lot of finger pointing going on in the city of Los Angeles right now. At the local level, at the state level, at the federal level, incoming president level. Whose fault do you think it is Greg expert water expert at UCLA that there wasn enough water to save every last house when the firefighters needed it?
--:-- Greg Pierce: Well, I don't think it was anyone's fault that there wasn't enough water because, again, from what I've been told and seen, that wasn't really possible. And no one, I can tell you for sure, no one was really talking about this a week ago or calling out that this area needed more water or that Los Angeles Department of Water and Power wasn't well equipped to fight this fire.
--:-- Greg Pierce: So I think they're going to find things already, things have been found that could have been done better. But I think the finger pointing there is largely political and was started at the city level and just escalated. But in terms of finger-pointing about what could be done in the future, I think that's more about how we've allowed people to get comfortable and not really anticipate that the climate change stories that we've already seen elsewhere hadn't quite experienced here with respect to fire.
--:-- Greg Pierce: We're going to come to bear here, as well as us not wanting to pay for things that, once they occur and hit us really hard, we wish we had paid for. But I'm not sure we'll even be willing to pay for again in two years when some of this has settled down and people who weren't directly personally affected and lost their homes, or worse, forget about this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Greg Pierce, University of California, Los Angeles. The politics of fire when we're back on Today Explained. Support for Today Explained comes from Chime. Nobody likes fees and complicated banking, says Chime. And Chime gets that, says Chime. Chime is a financial technology company that says they understand that every dollar counts.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Real friends. Wow. Support for the show today comes from LifeKit, the podcast from NPR. What's in your life kit? I'm asking. They didn't ask that. Every day you have to make choices that might shape the direction of your life, but you can't flip to the back of the book to find an answer key. Instead, you can listen to the LifeKit podcast from NPR.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: LifeKit offers real stories about common issues like relationships, finances, parenting, and your career. If you're looking to move with more intention or just need thoughtful guidance on living better, LifeKit delivers strategies to help you make meaningful, sustainable change. From fitness routines to mental resilience, navigating personal goals to tackling burnout, each episode is full of relevant insights and clear takeaways about things we all could use a little help with.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: LifeKit wants to help you approach your own life with confidence and clarity and walk away with a game plan you can implement right away. Enough from me. Go listen to the show Life Kit. It's a podcast from NPR. Today Explained is back. David Siders is here. He's an Angeleno and also a politics editor at Politico. So he's poised to help us understand how quickly these fires became political.
--:-- David Siders: Well, I'd say nearly instantaneously. You had Trump posting about it by Wednesday morning, pointing blame at California leaders. I think that Gavin is largely incompetent and I think the mayor is largely incompetent and probably both of them are just stone cold incompetent. What they've done is terrible.
--:-- David Siders: Other Republicans talking about Karen Bass, the Los Angeles mayor, and broadly, I think, a condemnation by Republicans of Democrats. So I think it started within hours. What are the arguments that people like Trump, I know his vice president Elon Musk has opinions to, what are the arguments they're making?
--:-- David Siders: I think the most prominent one is also probably the most baseless, which is so interesting. And that's about the Delta smelt, that he says that Gavin Newsom diverted water to protect this endangered fish. I've been trying to get Gavin Newsom to allow water to come. You'd have tremendous water up there. They send it out to the Pacific because they're trying to protect a tiny little fish, which is in other areas, by the way, called a smelt.
--:-- David Siders: And for the sake of a smelt, they have no water. It's a small, not very nice looking fish. And it's just not the case. There are controversies in California, huge ones around the Delta smelt. There's always controversy around water, and it has to do with, I mean, there are restrictions that are meant to protect that fish and also the ecosystem around it.
--:-- David Siders: And those restrictions may come at the cost of various farmers, for example, in central California. You're exactly right. It's about the agriculture interests there, the farmers and some communities further south. Can you imagine, you have farmers that don't have any water in California. They have plenty of water. They don't have a drought. They send it out to the Pacific, and it's crazy.
--:-- David Siders: But in this case, authorities have been very clear that the reservoirs were full, that this wasn't an issue of turning on the taps in the Delta up north. And obviously, when firefighters are running out of water, it makes it easier to point fingers. What are the recipients of the pointed fingers saying, Gavin Newsom, L.A. Mayor Karen Bass?
--:-- David Siders: They're saying that this is disinformation, and Newsom's been very aggressive about this. I don't know what he's referring to when he talks about the Delta smelt and reservoirs. The reservoirs are completely full of the state reservoirs here in Southern California. That mis and disinformation I think advantages or aids any of us.
--:-- David Siders: Local water authorities are saying the same thing Newsom is also inviting Trump to visit California So that the other part of the response I would say And then, not a direct response, but one that tacitly acknowledges, I think, the conservative criticism. We saw Newsom sign an executive order suspending some environmental regulations to help streamline rebuilding after the fires.
--:-- David Siders: And L.A. Mayor Karen Bass has perhaps been the biggest recipient of blame here, obviously not helping her case. She was not in the city of Los Angeles when these fires began. And this is after she pledged to not be such an international figure before she took office and maybe once she entered office.
--:-- David Siders: How is she responding? Yeah, she has been brutalized, too, as you say, for being abroad at the time. We've got a mayor that's out of the country and we've got a city that's burning and there's no resources to put out fires. Do you think you should have been visiting Ghana while this was unfolding back home? How are you not there with your team? Who gives a heck about Ghana?
--:-- David Siders: She's pushing back in similar ways. She's faced some disinformation to the fire department budget, for example. There is not agreement as to whether or not the budget was cut. On the other hand, there's been concern for a long time in the area about staffing levels with FD. I think the problem for her with being away is that she had really cultivated this image of being a mayor who was in the weeds, prioritizing local issues.
--:-- David Siders: Although I was not physically here, I was in contact with many of the individuals that are standing here throughout the entire time. When my flight landed, immediately went to the fire zone and saw what happened in Pacific Palisades. Not being there at the start, no matter what she says, that hurts. And I think that hurts her image.
--:-- David Siders: And even Democrats acknowledge that that's a liability for her. So we've been talking about the politics that have arisen in the wake of these fires. But of course, preventing future fires is also a political issue. Where do you think California needs to focus after seeing this, perhaps, again, one of the most destructive fires in its history, and certainly in terms of financial losses, economic losses?
--:-- David Siders: Well, I think there'll be a lot of immediate things they need to do, right? And some of it we're already seeing, like they have to finish putting out the fires, I mean, that's not done, and they have to do all of that immediate kind of work. And then the midterm stuff, and this could take a long time, like getting the utilities back in place, clearing the lots, demolition.
--:-- David Siders: The broader question, I suppose, or some of the broader questions they have to deal with is a land use question, first of all, and housing, where to build, how to build, something about resiliency probably. And then there's this bigger question, too, about climate change and what does not only the state do about that, but then I think if you're a Democratic leader in the state, you're looking for this to be some kind of catalyst for more climate action.
--:-- David Siders: And yet so much of the talk right now from Gavin Newsom, from Karen Bass, from the residents who have lost their homes is about rebuilding. And I don't want to blame or question these people who have been through this traumatic experience, especially in this moment. But when you hear that and you just think about this rationally, it feels like that may not be the answer because this could just happen again in 5, 10, 15 years, if not sooner.
--:-- David Siders: What do you think it takes for us to start talking about how we build houses in this country when it comes to preventing them from being at risk of going down in wildfires? Yeah, and not only how, but where. And there has been some criticism online. Why do these people live here? And I think some people grappling with it themselves. Yes, we will be rebuilt, but why are we doing it here? And I guess I think about it, well, first of all, it's a personal decision some people in very high-profile ways have made, right? They've left Malibu or they've left the Palisades or Altadena because of climate change.
--:-- David Siders: And many of us in California know people who have shed investments in this state and looked elsewhere because they see a climate future that looks better somewhere else. I mean, it's tough for a couple of reasons, right? A home is not just four walls. It's where their kids go to school and it's a job. It's also, it comes from an incredible place of privilege, I think, to think, yes, I could move to a different state. Not everybody is in that kind of position.
--:-- David Siders: And then ultimately, individual decisions to move somewhere else might be good and rational for them, but that doesn't solve the climate problem. So let's say I go to northern Minnesota or somebody else in this area does. That might be very good for a lot of years. But ultimately that catches up to you, right? Unless there's something done.
--:-- David Siders: I'm sympathetic to the idea that we should be careful about where we build and, jeez, I mean, people in California knew that tucking themselves into the foothills like this, getting so close to nature came with this kind of risk. And I think it's only going to get harder now. You think about the fragile insurance market and the regulations and the reality of something like this happening.
--:-- David Siders: But I don't think this problem is solved simply by individual decisions to move.
