--:-- Noelle King: California Senator Dianne Feinstein was at a memorial service for a friend named Ann Halstead. So this took place last summer. She and Halstead knew each other a long time. We're very close. She stood up to give some remarks. She accidentally calls Pelosi the Senate majority leader and then corrects herself and jokes about promoting Pelosi to Senate because, of course, she serves in the House. That wasn't the moment that was striking, however. She never actually mentioned Halstead, the deceased person who they were all there to memorialize. The ripple went through the crowd. People were sort of a bit in disbelief.
--:-- Noelle King: What happens when age catches up with our elected leaders? That's on Today Explained. I'm Noelle King. Support for this show comes from ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into, don't you know? That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. Didn't know that. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. I've never met an AI agent. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.
--:-- Noelle King: Support for this show comes from Strawberry.me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Or are you stuck in one you've outgrown? Or never wanted in the first place? Sure, you can probably list the reasons for staying. But are they actually just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from Strawberry.me help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your corner. Go to strawberry.me slash unstuck to claim a special offer.
--:-- Noelle King: Tal Kopan is on the Washington, D.C. beat for the San Francisco Chronicle. That's Senator Dianne Feinstein's hometown paper. And she recently wrote a deeply sourced report in which colleagues of Feinstein say she's different. Tal, what's going on? What was brought to our attention, we feel like, is significantly more than simply a little bit of slowing down. And really a pattern of short-term memory issues that exceed what might be ascribed to perhaps a little forgetfulness.
--:-- Tal Kopan: So, for example, we spoke with a California Democratic member of Congress who said that they somewhat recently had a multi-hour long interaction with the senator. And this is a member of Congress who has known the senator for over a decade. And they were sort of expecting sort of a detailed, rigorous policy debate because that's what she always was sort of up for. And not only did that not take place, but they had to introduce themselves to the senator and then do so again multiple times over the course of the interaction because she was seemingly unable to recall parts of the conversation that had already happened in the span of this interaction.
--:-- Noelle King: And you spoke with two senators who have served with her for some time who say they get the sense that she can't always place them when they encounter each other.
--:-- Tal Kopan: We spoke with Senate colleagues, the California Democratic member of Congress, and three former staff members of the senator who all have seen very up close what the situation is and were in agreement on their assessments. That they do not believe that she's really up to the job anymore. The job that includes representing nearly 40 million people in California.
--:-- Noelle King: It was reporting that we just felt we couldn't ignore. How has Dianne Feinstein made her mark in the Senate up to this point?
--:-- Tal Kopan: Well, there's no denying that she has had a tremendous career, and not just in the Senate. I mean, going back in San Francisco politics, breaking barriers as a mayor of San Francisco. Her role in the assassination of Harvey Milk. The president of the Board of Supervisors, Dianne Feinstein, spoke. Both Mayor Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk have been shot and killed.
--:-- Noelle King: That's a very difficult moment in American history. And she was a pathbreaker for so long, one of the first women, along with Barbara Boxer, ever to represent the Senate for California.
--:-- Tal Kopan: And that you will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which you're about to enter, so help you God. I will. Thank you. And then in the Senate, I mean, she's worked and been a leader on so many issues, including gun violence prevention. She has been a leader on the Senate Judiciary Committee. She served on the Senate Intelligence Committee. She still serves on both of those committees.
--:-- Noelle King: The report released today examines the CIA's secret overseas detention of at least 119 individuals and the use of coercive interrogation techniques, in some cases, amounting to torture. And every single one of the conversations that I had for this piece was painful. And the people I spoke with really felt awful about having to even have these conversations because they respect and revere her so much. And many of them are voicing these concerns in part because they wish that she could have a dignified cap to her career and not be remembered for a public embarrassment.
--:-- Tal Kopan: They want her to be remembered for this legendary trajectory in politics. You asked House Speaker Nancy Pelosi for comment. She is both a colleague and a friend of Feinstein's. They're both from the Bay Area.
--:-- Noelle King: How did she respond?
--:-- Tal Kopan: She defended Senator Feinstein and, you know, spoke about her record for in delivering for the people of California, called her tireless. She used the word unconscionable to describe what she characterized as attacks. We don't believe them to be attacks. The people speaking with us were voicing concerns and very specific details in our actions.
--:-- Noelle King: But Speaker Pelosi called it unconscionable for these to be raised at this time in particular Senator Feinstein lost her husband in February. He passed after a long illness. Senator Feinstein issued a statement saying my heart is broken today. My husband was my partner and best friend for more than 40 years. I am going to miss him terribly.
--:-- Tal Kopan: While our reporting absolutely takes into account the sad situation with her husband, the reporting also indicates that these issues predate that situation. And while certainly stress and grief can exacerbate things and we don't have the ability to say to what degree, that the situation with our husband does not explain the episodes that we were told about in the piece.
--:-- Noelle King: In a statement to KCRA tonight, the senator wrote in part, while I have focused for much of the past year on my husband's health and ultimate passing, I have remained committed to achieving results and I'd put my record up against anyone's.
--:-- Tal Kopan: Tal, if Senator Feinstein is struggling with memory loss to such a degree, how is she getting her job done well enough to keep being reelected? She was last reelected in 2018. She has the right to serve through the end of her term in 2024. You know, in the Senate, she's just over halfway through her six-year term.
--:-- Noelle King: And in 2018, she faced her first real challenge in a long time from a Democrat, Kevin DeLeon. He came close to defeating her, but she has had a storied career. She has a very strong reputation in California.
--:-- Tal Kopan: It was remarkable that he came so close to defeating her. But there was one sort of candidate forum, and she got through that without any major slip-ups or anything of the sort and won her seat again. And I don't think anyone on Capitol Hill would deny that she has a very experienced and skilled staff.
--:-- Noelle King: But especially the former staffers I spoke with said it's increasingly difficult for that office to operate at full strength because she does need to sign off on things. And she does need to understand everything they want to put out, every letter they want to send, every statement, every bill they want to sign on to.
--:-- Tal Kopan: And the former staffers I spoke with described an increasingly difficult time doing that because they would brief her on something and then perhaps the next day she wouldn't remember. Or she couldn't follow complex threads and the staff at least believed it was in part because of these issues and not because it was too complicated to be understood.
--:-- Noelle King: Does anyone know if she plans to run again when this term is up?
--:-- Tal Kopan: We don't know at this time. She has filed paperwork with the FEC, the Federal Elections Commission, to be able to continue having a political operation. It's sort of a formality. It doesn't necessarily commit her to running. So at this time, she has not made any declarations, but she has also not foreclosed the possibility of running again.
--:-- Noelle King: If it's true that Senator Feinstein can't do her job anymore, like in the present tense, is there anything that can be done about it?
--:-- Tal Kopan: There's sort of the realistic answer and the technical answer. Technically, the Senate has a process for expelling a member. It requires a vote of the other members of the Senate. Historically, it has pretty much only been used in cases of basically treason. You know, many of the expulsions took place around the Civil War with Confederate sympathizers.
--:-- Noelle King: It would take something tremendous to see the Senate resort to that. And I believe it's a two-thirds vote that it's the threshold of that.
--:-- Tal Kopan: So realistically, no, there's virtually nothing that can be done. It's up to her whether she wants to finish her term.
--:-- Noelle King: Your report came out. It got a lot of attention. And reporters get complaints. That's fair. We all know it happens. We've all experienced it. But there was one complaint in particular that seemed to be recurring. It is ageist. It is possibly even sexist to examine an 88-year-old senator's mental fitness, especially when President Joe Biden, Senator Mitch McConnell, Representative Jim Clyburn are still doing their jobs.
--:-- Tal Kopan: What do you think?
--:-- Noelle King: I interact with plenty of politicians in their 80s on a regular basis who are sharp as a tack. If what was described to me about Senator Feinstein was described to me about someone in their 60s or 50s or any age, it would be a matter of concern and of importance to report.
--:-- Tal Kopan: I have been here for about 42 years. And every day, there are new challenges. I like challenges.
--:-- Noelle King: Now, I completely respect the conversation that is happening about these questions. And one of the things that has been striking to me is how many readers have reached out to me with a very personal connection to the piece. Many folks have written me about difficult conversations they've had to have in their families and with loved ones about, in their instances, diagnosed conditions.
--:-- Tal Kopan: And they wrote to me just with how much what we reported resonated with them.
--:-- Noelle King: Do you know why our lawmakers in this country are so much older than the median age, even elderly in general?
--:-- Tal Kopan: For one, there's a lot of power in incumbency. You know, once you're in, there's some very institutional privileges, including, you know, it's very political nerd, but it's called franked mail. So there's an ability of an officeholder to use government resources to send communications to their constituents, which is theoretically supposed to be to keep them informed of what's happening in Washington.
--:-- Noelle King: Awards says it lets you earn points on your rent. By paying rent through Bilt, they say you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, perhaps a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and so much more.
--:-- Tal Kopan: Your home isn't just where you sleep, it's your community. And Bilt wants you to go out and do things in the community. You can eat at your favorite local restaurants, then earn more points. You can get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios. You can enjoy exclusive experiences just for Built members every month.
--:-- Noelle King: When you're ready to travel, they say Built points can be converted to miles or hotel points all around the world. You can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home by joining built.com slash explained.
--:-- Tal Kopan: That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash explained.
--:-- Noelle King: Support for this show comes from Macy's. It's almost fall, And that means it's time to cycle your wardrobe to the cold setting. Because while everyone loves a breezy summer outfit, let's be real, layering is even more fun. That's why Macy's Fall Fashion Guide has everything you need to piece together the perfect look for you.
--:-- Tal Kopan: It's your one-stop shop for fall's latest trends and must-haves, curated by their experts. Add a statement shoe to your collection, like the calf hair loafers from Steve Madden.
--:-- Noelle King: Or tap into your romantic side with flowy dresses from CC and sheer pieces from INC. You can even throw in some textural layers for contrast, like a faux fur bomber jacket from Karl Lagerfeld Paris.
--:-- Tal Kopan: Whether your old favorite sweater or coat is on its last threads or you're just craving a new vibe to switch things up, Macy's has got you covered this season. Find the perfect layering pieces for you by exploring the Macy's Fall Fashion Style Guide.
--:-- Noelle King: Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com. It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King.
--:-- Tal Kopan: There is a minimum age for U.S. senators. It's 30. A 30-year-old named Joe Biden was sworn into the Senate once upon a time. Today, the youngest U.S. senator is 35. We see you, John Ossoff.
--:-- Noelle King: Shauna Chalmers is a professor of political science at Rutgers. She wondered why the young people around her seemed put off by the idea of running for office. So she asked around 800 of them and then wrote a book called Out of the Running, Why Millennials Reject Political Careers.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: The age kind of increase is not itself about age. I think it is a factor of several other bad trends that I dislike about American politics, particularly in terms of how we finance campaigns.
--:-- Noelle King: We are the only advanced post-industrial democracy to make individual candidates create brand new organizations to run every single time, to raise all of their own money, to raise money from weird shadowy groups that have, you know, no connection to political parties.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: But also we prioritize incumbents, right, so that we have incredible amounts of partisan gerrymandering that has only been increasing in the past two decades to protect incumbents. Incumbents, if they aren't old to start with, certainly grow old in office.
--:-- Noelle King: And then we reward seniority, especially in the Senate. People know the longer you're in office, the more you can get done while you're there because it's a seniority system.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: So it's like all of these things together, this is a recipe for kind of attracting and then keeping older people in office.
--:-- Noelle King: Define a word for me, if you would. What is a gerontocracy?
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: Gerontocracy is literally ruled by the old. And it's kind of like plutocracy would be ruled by the rich or theocracy would be ruled by religious leaders. Democracy is ruled by the people.
--:-- Noelle King: Do you think the United States runs the risk of becoming a gerontocracy, or is one already?
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: If you look at the demographics, you could certainly make a case that we're already a gerontocracy. The most represented group in Congress is between 60 and 69. That's kind of where the median is.
--:-- Noelle King: After that, the most represented group is 50 to 59. There's very few under 40s at all. There's none in the Senate.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: The leadership is even older on average. And the average for the U.S. population is 47. So that's a serious discrepancy.
--:-- Noelle King: And the median is even younger, I think. I think the median is closer in age to me, 39 or 40.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: Right. So you began looking into why millennials weren't running for public office. What was the data that you were looking at that made you think, huh, this is a real thing?
--:-- Noelle King: What I did is survey about 800 of these law and policy school students who I thought should have been interested in running. The sample was elite law and policy school students in the Boston area.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: I looked at Harvard Law School, Harvard Kennedy School students. And then because I did not want it to be just a Harvard project I had to check by also recruiting and testing students from Suffolk Law School Suffolk Law School is the institution that sent the most of its graduates into state-level politics.
--:-- Noelle King: Only about 15 percent of this, you know, highly political and policy-minded sample wanted to run for office. And when you asked them why, when you asked the other 85 percent, why don't you want to run for office? What do they tell you?
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: The most immediate finding, which was repeated across almost everybody I talked to, was about the role of money in campaigns. And that had to do with two different factors. I talk about it in my book as the ick factors of campaigns.
--:-- Noelle King: I had one interviewee who told me, I don't even like to take 40 bucks from my dad when he puts me back on the bus to go to law school. I don't like to take money from people because then I feel indebted.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: Several people use the word corrupt because even though the Supreme Court has said money is speech and corporations are people, it feels like legal corruption. If you're an idealistic young person looking at the world, you think maybe that's not how I want it to work.
--:-- Noelle King: And then there's the more instrumental secondary part, which is also I can't get anything done. Because you could imagine working with a lot of good intentioned people and not getting anything done could be frustrating.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: And that's one kind of deterrent. But working with people who maybe you don't respect and also through a process that you don't like doing, where about 70% of your time is fundraising, which you don't like doing, and that feels icky, that's separate from not being able to get anything done. Those are two separate deterrents.
--:-- Noelle King: We are not waiting for justice! Distrustful of politicians and institutions, many millennials turn to grassroots movements, Black Lives Matter demonstrations, boycotts, and climate change protests.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: I cannot tell you how many of the interviewees I talked to said, oh, I'd love to do a career in politics that's not being the politician, right? I like to do the strategy or I like to do the legislative work.
--:-- Noelle King: Some political scientists have called it electoral aversion, right? The idea that it's not government per se that is a problem maybe, but our electoral systems in terms of turning young people off.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: I was doing this research about 10 years ago is when I started collecting the data. So increasingly since then, I think it is unfortunately getting worse, the sense that there is gridlock and acrimony and a sense of politics as a toxic work environment.
--:-- Noelle King: There were reporters in the front of the Capitol and in front of reporters, Representative Yoho called me and I quote, a f***ing f***ing.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: These are the words that Representative Yoho levied against a congresswoman. The idea of like putting yourself in a bad workplace is less and less appealing.
--:-- Noelle King: Have older generations made politics so dirty that young people simply want nothing to do with it?
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: I mean, the way that we think about that there was a golden age and we're now fallen out of Eden, it seems a little silly if you think about it.
--:-- Noelle King: I teach the 1796 election to my students for this reason. Welcome, folks, to the Adams administration. That was probably far dirtier than anything we've seen. John Adams running against Thomas Jefferson. Adam spires Hamilton, privately calls him creole bastard in his tongue.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: The nastiest kind of mud you can imagine even without Twitter. Sit down, John, you fat s***. And then the election of 1860 literally did rip the nation apart. Post-Reconstruction, I think, of the election of 1884, there was this famous mudslinging thing against Grover Cleveland with a whole song about his illicit love child.
--:-- Noelle King: Wow. Right? It's always been gross. It is always gross. And yet democracy is just so painful and so difficult. And unfortunately, it is really the best thing we can come up with.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: I was reading that Chuck Grassley, who is 88, plans to run again. And it made me wonder, in all honesty, do you think the U.S. is going to stay this way?
--:-- Noelle King: I do. For the foreseeable future. It won't always be the boomers, right? Because we're going to run out of them. So we, millennials, are likely going to take over and age in office if we keep the current political systems the way they are that reward name recognition, that reward incumbency and seniority.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: All of those things will kind of contribute to young people staying away. And yet, I was encouraged to see a lot of young people through movements literally in the streets, Black Lives Matter and Me Too, and kind of this sense that there is something to save, though, that we can revitalize or change things.
--:-- Noelle King: After 2016, there was a spike in women running for office, especially women of color. It was really an exciting moment in some ways, while also terrifying to those worried about democracy.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: So the feeling that our democracy is in trouble does still seem to motivate at least some young people.
--:-- Noelle King: Today's show was produced by Halima Shah, edited by Matthew Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, and engineered by Afim Shapiro, who, like me, is in his 40s.
--:-- Shauna Chalmers: I'm Noelle King. This has been Today Explained. Thank you.
