--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from the FIFA World Cup, of all things. The FIFA World Cup 26 is coming to North America next summer. It is the ultimate celebration of sports and culture. You can get closer to the beautiful game with a hospitality package, closer to the action, the best seats, the best suites, closer to match day and that world-class food and that world-class entertainment, closer to the experience of a lifetime. Book a hospitality package at fifaworldcup.com slash hospitality.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more. It's Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram. When the clock struck midnight today in Texas, the state got a new abortion law. It could be the most expansive abortion legislation in effect today anywhere in the United States.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The law doesn't just make it nearly impossible to get an abortion after about six weeks. It makes it really easy for just about anyone to sue just about anyone who helps someone get an abortion after about six weeks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We reached out to Ashley Lopez at KUT in Austin to explain. This is called, well, it's referred to as the Texas Heartbeat Act. It's one of these bills that are related to, like, fetal heartbeats, right? So they prohibit abortions when a fetal heartbeat is detectable, which is about, it could be as early as five weeks, but around six weeks for the most part into a pregnancy.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And five to six weeks, just to be sure here, means that you could not even know you're pregnant but have missed the deadline to get an abortion because you maybe don't want the pregnancy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And, you know, there's a really small window of time between for many people when they find out they're pregnant and can get an abortion before this law.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Because, you know, in Texas, it's there's not a lot of providers for such a big state. You have to travel far. There's a 24 hour window that you need to clear in order to get an abortion. You need to have a sonogram. There's just like a lot of hurdles that already exist in Texas.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the idea of like finding out you're pregnant in time to meet this new window is seemingly impossible.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Actually, abortion providers say about 85 percent of people, this is like their estimate, about 85 percent of people who would otherwise be getting an abortion in Texas are not going to have access to clinics for the procedure now that this law is in effect.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And does it make exceptions for things like incest or rape? No, it does not. The only exception in this is to save the life of the pregnant person.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So if you are a victim of rape or incest, there is no carve out in this bill for you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And as severe as that restriction is, and it is very severe, it isn't what really makes this law stand out.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Is that fair? Yeah. I mean, the weirdest part about this law is that, you know, even though Texas lawmakers put this law into effect and created this restriction.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When I hear a person's beating heart, I just don't hear their heart. I hear their soul speaking, and I listen carefully. They're not asking the state to enforce it.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Usually, and this is what other states do, this is what historically pretty much every abortion ban has resulted in, is having a state enforce those new laws.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But this one left it up to private citizens. Basically, anyone, including people who don't live in Texas, can sue an abortion provider for providing someone an abortion after that six week ban.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Like it is up to basically anyone to enforce this law in Texas.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And just to be clear here, if a pregnant person's neighbor finds out that they went to get an abortion after about six weeks, the neighbor could, like, sue the person who was working at the front desk of the clinic?
--:-- Ashley Lopez: There is nothing to stop them. And that neighbor is now flushed $10,000 and that person is fined in civil court.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah. What exactly are the parameters of this? Does this sort of new way of enforcing an abortion law have restrictions?
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So it's really broad, which is why I think before this law went into effect, actually lawyers from across the state and judges raised a lot of concerns about this because this doesn't exist in practically any other kind of law.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like usually when states create restrictions, they want to enforce them. And, you know, usually when you sue someone, you have to prove they harmed you.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Like in what situation and the one that you presented, like in what situation is the neighbor hurt by this woman having an abortion? Like this is outside of like how the law usually works.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But you know there were some motivations for why they wrote it this way which we can get into But basically anyone can sue someone in Texas for providing an abortion to someone
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And the law goes even further to say that if you aid and abet which is very vague language you can also be sued if that woman gets a procedure after six weeks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If a friend gives you a ride to get an abortion after around six weeks, is that aiding and abetting an abortion?
--:-- Ashley Lopez: I think no one can really give you this answer. This is also part of the concern. It's very vague.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Presumably, anyone who provides any kind of support, whether it's emotional, financial, like you mentioned, just a ride, just like logistical support, could be subject to this.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And in fact, I've talked to social workers like rape crisis counselors, for example. Rape crisis counselors have to walk women through their options, especially if they ask for it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And if some woman goes to get counseling and asks about her option, and then eventually gets an abortion outside of a six-week window, that person could be liable for doing their job.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: I mean, it feels like this has to have parameters. If someone consults a teacher or a coach or a friend about whether or not they should get an abortion, could that be considered aiding and abetting?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Pretty much. I mean, at least right now, there's no clarity on this.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So everyone is kind of operating with the assumption that they could be liable here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, this is untested. There is no law like this in the country. This kind of enforcement doesn't exist in other kinds of restrictions like this.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So this is kind of a whole new world and no one really knows what to expect.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And honestly, it doesn't really matter because all it takes is for someone to just allege that you broke the law in order for you to have to deal with legal fees.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: It's civil court. It's going to have an effect on anyone who is targeted by this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And even if it's found that they did not do anything unlawful, you know, they still are not going to recoup those costs in that time and the, frankly, stress of being sued for this.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: What's the story behind this very exceptional law? Who came up with it and who was promoting it?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, anti-abortion groups in Texas. I mean, that's not surprising. In Texas for years now, the anti-abortion lobby has been very powerful.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And I also want to thank all of the pro-life groups who joined with us here today, but also who worked tirelessly during the course of the session to make sure this bill got passed and for everything they do to cultivate a culture of life in Texas.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A lot of the bills that are brought before lawmakers come from that world.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And their whole impetus, and this is something they openly admit, which is that they were trying to figure out something that would be hard to stop in court.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because when usually an abortion restriction is passed, abortion providers sue the state because they're the people who would be enforcing it.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So it is there's a more clear cut path to getting an injunction from a court to getting a court to stop it from going into effect.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But who do you sue now? It's been an open question that's been hard to figure out who, you know, no one has sued yet, you know, that we know of.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And so who's the person who you stop from enforcing the law when really it's literally everyone that could do it?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: All the same, the Supreme Court had an opportunity to block this last night.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: What happened? Well, nothing really happened. This went before Justice Alito because he is the justice that is assigned to Texas.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when there are emergency requests, like the one that was filed here in Texas by abortion providers, he is the justice that is tasked to deal with it.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And he didn't block it. Nothing happened.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So as of midnight today, it's been the law in Texas.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: More with Ashley after this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards. These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program. You swipe your card and you get one cent on the hundred dollars.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Your home isn't just where you sleep. It's your community.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Let be honest Are you happy with your job Like really happy
--:-- Ashley Lopez: The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can say yes to that Far too many of us are stuck in a job we outgrown or one we never wanted in the place.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But still, we stick it out.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And we give reasons like, what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And maybe the most common one, isn't everyone kind of miserable at work?
--:-- Ashley Lopez: But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's time to get unstuck. It's time for Strawberry.me.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: They match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, create a plan, build your confidence, and keeps you accountable along the way.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So don't leave your career to chance. Take action and own your future with a professional coach in your corner.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Go to strawberry.me slash unstuck to claim a special offer.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's strawberry.me slash unstuck.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Ashley, before this law went into effect at midnight this morning, what did abortion in Texas look like?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, this was never an easy place to get an abortion.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: You know, this is a Republican led state. It's very conservative and notoriously or famously, depending who you ask, has passed a lot of abortion restrictions in the past decade or so.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, we have the required sonogram laws, 24 hour waiting periods.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Women seeking an abortion will have now to receive a sonogram 24 hours before the procedure is ever done.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They can decide not to look at it or listen to hear everything, hear the heartbeat, for example, but they must hear about fetus development.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: There was just a ruling on a limit on what procedures abortion providers can use in second trimesters.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Dilation and evacuation, or D&E, is the standard abortion procedure used after 15 weeks of pregnancy.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: The newly reinstated law forbids D&E abortions unless an additional procedure is first performed to bring about the demise of the fetus.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Which a dissenting judge wrote would force women into, quote, painful, invasive, expensive treatments that pose significantly elevated risks to the woman's health.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: The most common method for a second trimester abortion is now illegal here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So this was always a place with a lot of abortion restrictions.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Just this is on a whole new level.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So what is this change for pregnant people? Is the biggest change the sort of enforcement aspect, the fact that your neighbor or someone in Maine could be suing you for getting an abortion?
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Well, I mean, it's just going to be a lot harder to get one in general because the clinics are not going to violate the law.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They don't want to be subject to mounting fines for providing an abortion after six weeks.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So your options are, you know, their online abortion pill distribution sites, right? Like that is a service for now in Texas.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I know anti-abortion activists have been trying to get that tamp down here in Texas.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: They told me like that's going to be the next thing in their bullseye.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Or you're going to have to drive out of state.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And if you've ever lived in Texas or driven through Texas, that is no small feat depending where you live.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It could be hours and hours and hours away for you to get an abortion.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: What are abortion clinics in the state doing? Are they just closing up shop? Are they living in fear now?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, they're not closing up shop. They can still provide abortions if someone comes in early enough before there's a fetal heartbeat.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: It's just so small. That's such a small percentage of people who get an abortion because most people don't figure out they're pregnant until after that five or six week period.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But many abortion providers, including Planned Parenthood, provide other services, cancer screenings, stuff like that, birth control.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So that work is still there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But in the meantime, abortion procedures are going to be hard to come by in the state.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Have you spoken to anyone who works at an abortion clinic in Texas? Are they scared?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, I've talked to a lot of people, mostly on the administrative level.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: They're really scared for their staff because remember, it's not just the institution that's going to be sued.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like, it usually happens. Like, it's the actual providers, the staff.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Like, if you're a nurse in a clinic and – I mean, it could be anything, right? Like, anybody who is involved in someone getting an abortion outside of six weeks, they're subject to this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And all it takes is an allegation, right? Someone can just allege that this nurse helped someone get an abortion after six weeks.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And even if they're wrong, that person has to deal with a lawsuit and the costs that come with that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And again, the stress that comes with that.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So administrators at these clinics are just like really scared for their staff.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They feel very targeted.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And of course they feel really sad for the patients that they could be helping.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For them, you know, this is why they do this work is to help people who are in a tough time.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And so they feel like they're not able to do what they're there to do.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So an administrator who hands someone who wants an abortion at a clinic a clipboard could be liable to a lawsuit and end up paying a fine of what? $10,000 is what people are potentially liable for.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And that is the low point because you could be required to pay attorney fees for both sides.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is what abortion providers are actually really concerned about because they feel like this could become a cottage industry for folks right Like there's no cost to you alleging and suing people really unless, especially if you get legal help from like an anti-abortion group.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: But it could be easily abused is their fear.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's not just people who work at abortion clinics that could be caught in the crosshairs of this.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: You know, I talk to folks who are, you know, social workers, people who like specifically rape crisis counselors who provide women support if they have been sexually assaulted.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And part of their job is to field questions about people's options after something like that happens.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And stuff like abortion options comes up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I talked to a woman, Monica Faulkner. She's been a social worker here in Texas for 20 years, and she's worked a lot with rape victims.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And she said, I know for myself, ethically as a social worker, my code of ethics would require me to give a client information that they requested.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She feels like it is her ethical duty to field those questions regardless of the law.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And I know that my fellow social workers will also do that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like it would be reckless and almost a disturbance to the people that she's supposed to serve if she shields herself from answering those questions in the event that that person eventually gets an abortion.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So we're putting ourselves at risk in doing so.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, this feels like an obvious question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Was this meant to be a direct challenge to Roe v. Wade? Is that the intention here?
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So I actually talked to John Segoe. He's the legislative director for Texas Right to Life.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's a key figure when bills like this get drafted in the Texas legislature.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And to him, this is not what this is because he and he told me this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He believes that, you know, there are other challenges that were headed to the Supreme Court, like the Mississippi ban, a bunch of other laws like this ban that were destined for the Supreme Court because they were following the regular sort of legal framework that everyone goes through.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Right. Like sue the state that's going to enforce the ban.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It goes to a district level court and then an appeals court and then it heads to the Supreme Court.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So, you know, at least anti-abortion groups here say they didn't feel they even need to directly affect Roe v. Wade.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What they saw this as, as a way to make sure that this law did not get stopped in court, that the courts were all the way skirted from getting involved in this process.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Because they feel, because Roe v. Wade is still the law, that it would be stopped from being enforced.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they were right because, look, other states were banned from enforcing this law.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: And in Texas right now, it is law and it is in full effect because it has been a really strange legal journey for this because it was written to be a strange legal journey for anyone who wanted to stop it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So what comes next? Is this going to get challenged? Can it get challenged now that the Supreme Court hasn't done anything?
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Might the Supreme Court do something or what? I mean, Justice Alito can do whatever he wants.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He can literally weigh in and issue the emergency injunction whenever he wants, if he wants to.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: The other venue here, the other, I guess, way this could work is someone gets an abortion after six weeks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Someone sues. and then that person who is sued can sue for damages and fight the constitutionality of this law from the perspective of someone who was directly harmed by the law.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: So it might come down to someone going out there and trying to get an abortion who has to then fight this law themselves all the way up to the Supreme Court.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, I think it's almost inevitable that someone will be sued and if that person is sued, there are people waiting in the wings to sue back.
--:-- Ashley Lopez: Ashley, thank you so much.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you. Ashley Lopez is a reporter at KUT.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's public radio in Austin, Texas.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find and support her work at KUT.org.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today's show was produced by Victoria Chamberlain, with help from Amina Al-Sadi, Hady Mawajdeg, and Jillian Weinberger.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Edited by Matt Collette, engineered by Efim Shapiro, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, and hosted by Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thoughts? Questions? Comments? Concerns? Send an email to todayexplainedatvox.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: More tomorrow.
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