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--:-- Noel King: If you are a woman on God's green earth on Al Gore's internet, then your algorithm has at some point served you Nara Smith, the soft-spoken model who loves to cook for her husband and kids.
--:-- Noel King: My toddlers were playing in the backyard. They asked me for a Capri Sun. Since I had all the fruit at home to make some, I told them to give me a minute. Nara's Capri Sun doesn't have any added sugar or citric acid or any of those sus-natural flavors that are in the store-bought one. It's all from scratch.
--:-- Noel King: I also added some cold grapes and it was time to start juicing all of my fruit. But then she does put it in a little plastic pouch with the straw, just like it's a real Capri Sun, which is incredibly cute. And now somehow you've lost 10 minutes and there are hundreds more of these videos. And really, you need to get offline and go do something with yourself. But you cannot look away. What is happening to you? You have entered the world of Tradwives. They are coming up on Today Explained.
--:-- Noel King: Right as I was done cleaning up, they wanted a second one. Support for Today Explained comes from the FIFA World Cup, of all things. The FIFA World Cup 26 is coming to North America next summer. It is the ultimate celebration of sports and culture. You can get closer to the beautiful game with a hospitality package. Closer to the action, the best seats, the best suites. Closer to match day and that world-class food and that world-class entertainment. closer to the experience of a lifetime. Book a hospitality package at fifaworldcup.com slash hospitality.
--:-- Noel King: Support for this show comes from Macy's. Layering is an art form. All it takes is a bit of intention, style, and of course, the perfect cold weather staples. So find the perfect look for you with the help of Macy's Fall Fashion Guide, your one-stop shop for fall's latest trends and must-haves, curated by their experts. From leather to denim to cozy knits, find everything you need to piece together your new fall look. Explore the Macy's Fall Guide for yourself and shop in-store or online at Macy's.com.
--:-- Noel King: Sarah Peterson, author of Momfluenced and the Substack in Pursuit of Clean Countertops. What is a trad wife?
--:-- Sarah Peterson: So I would define a trad wife. My definition has kind of changed in the last couple of years, but I would define a trad wife as somebody who adheres to traditional gender norms and does so in a public-facing way.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: First of all, you should be a mother. If you're a woman, you should be a mother and you should glory in all things domestic. So not only should you take care of the house, clean the house, cook the meals, raise the children, ideally you're doing these things in a really aesthetically pleasing way.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: Often they homeschool their children. They're often making food from scratch. So they're doing all things, you know, mothering labor and domestic labor, but they're turning it up to 100. I submit and I serve my husband. And the Bible has the man of the household, not the woman.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: This morning, my toddlers really wanted to color, but we were all out of paper, so I decided to make my own. There's a lot of disillusionment, rightly so, with sort of, you know, the narratives of mainstream feminism that have been parceled out in, you know, the past 20 years. Lean in. So there's a real rejection of girlboss feminism at the heart of many of these accounts.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: There's a lot of exhaustion with the idea of having to work a full-time job in addition to raising a family without getting burnt out. You know, there's a lot of women who you know I wouldn't necessarily put in the trad wife bucket who are also sort of united in this rejection of the version of feminism that they've been fed.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: It doesn't apply to me. I live a soft life. I just want a soft life. Very soft. As soft as it can get. And then I'm thinking of the stay-at-home girlfriend phenomenon. And these women really prioritize keeping their homes immaculate, keeping their bodies immaculate.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: A lot of focus on physical appearance, maintaining beauty standards and body standards. And I'm thinking of one, Kendall Kay on TikTok. Day of my life as a stay-at-home girlfriend.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: I first did my skincare routine, then I did some ice rolling and some journaling and I made the bed. It's really simple content usually, but I think the appeal is that it feels simple and it feels sort of separate from the messiness of life that most of us are experiencing.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: So, yeah. So is the word trad wife, is it something that this group of women embraces? Like, is it something that they own? It depends, which I know is an obnoxious answer.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: But I'm thinking of one who, like, proudly wears the term, Aria Lewis. She's Mrs. Aria Lewis on Instagram. And she is constantly defining what it means to be a trad wife, owning the term trad wife.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: Being traditional is not a 1950s cosplay cult or a Little House on the Prairie cosplay cult. Being traditional is having a set of values that you make your life decisions from. But then you have people like Hannah Neelman who was interviewed by the London Times and said she didn't really identify with the term.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: I think a lot of the time these women are saying They're just living their lives. And, you know, we're the ones that are obsessed with labeling it and sort of pathologizing it, but they're just doing what feels right to them.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: Hannah Nealman is fascinating. Tell us about her.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: I started following Hannah Neelman in 2019 or 2020. I wrote a piece for Harper's Bazaar. And at that point, she had under 200,000 followers on Instagram, which is absolutely wild considering she now has roughly 22 million followers across all platforms.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: She has just absolutely exploded in fame and just visibility. She is a mother of eight. She's Mormon. She lives on a ranch in Utah with her husband, Daniel Neeloman, who is one of the children of David Neeloman, who founded Jet Blue.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: So there's certainly generational wealth at play. Yeah, they are hugely controversial, mostly because Hannah's Instagram makes her life look really serene, I would say.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: She just leans into motherhood and domesticity in a way that feels absolutely impossible unless you have a ton of money and a ton of other privileges.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: I think a Hallmark Hannah Neelman reel is her cooking some sort of elaborate scratch meal. I'm getting started on my meat, so I put tons of herbs, breadcrumbs, some spices, and then I put it in a loaf pan and baked that.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: Then while that was baking, I rolled out my sourdough pita. And pita is literally so easy to make.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: And she's either wearing a baby or has a toddler on her hip. Children are coming in and out of frame. And her voice, it never really changes in pitch or tone. It's like always calm.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: I wake up, nurse floor Joe, then we get the kids fed and ready for school, which is in a little schoolhouse we have here on the farm.
--:-- Sarah Peterson: And I think if you were to ask most people, like, do you follow any trad wives? The one they would reference the most is Hannah Naleman.
--:-- Noel King: Producer Victoria Chamberlain, notably not a trad wife, she buys French salt from Ballerina Farm, and then she posts images on our work slack. She loves the content. She watches it on Instagram. I do too.
--:-- Noel King: I don't want to be a trad wife. Why do I want to watch it so much? Why do we want to buy the salt? Like, what is the allure here?
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: It's really beautiful content a lot of the time. You know, there's all these rolling hills, you know, open plains. The kitchen is rustic in this very like, you know, yesteryear type of way.
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: And I think there's something so intoxicating about the idea of devoting oneself to just to one thing or to go all in on one aspect of your identity.
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: I think that's especially salient for moms who, you know, we can't find affordable childcare. We're constantly torn in two directions. And so to see somebody who isn't torn in two directions and who seems really happy and is living this beautiful life.
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: Yeah, I think we all just want more simplicity. And I think we're also longing for the certainty that she seems to have in her lifestyle.
--:-- Noel King: You said she was controversial. What makes her controversial?
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: Really that she's adhering to super specific standards of femininity and motherhood. She's very thin. She's conventionally attractive.
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: She even, you know, she participates in beauty pageants, which is just, you know, an explicit, like, best domestic goddess contest.
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: And I think mothers across this country are mad. We're exhausted. We're under-resourced. We're not supported by our government.
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: And so to see somebody constantly selling this idyllic, romanticized version of motherhood that is wildly impossible for the vast majority of people feels sort of like a form of gaslighting.
--:-- Noel King: I think a defender of Hannah Nealman might say, but she's not doing anything bad. She and other women like her are just living their best lives, however, realistically, on Instagram.
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: And that's not a real problem. And if that's a real problem, then anybody who pretends their life is better than it is on social media is a problem.
--:-- Noel King: I don't even care. I'm not even particularly interested in whether or not, you know, all of this comes as easily to her as she makes it seem.
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: I do think Hannah Neelman has, her responsibility in the trad wife sort of phenomenon is hard to parse.
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: I think what's more important is what politicians do with Tradwives and how they, you know, explicitly or not weaponize them in the culture wars.
--:-- Noel King: While she has said that she aims to be apolitical for most of her public-facing years, she recently did a cover shoot with Evie magazine.
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: It looks a lot like Glamour or Elle, but they're publishing articles about, you know, the toxicity of birth control and the importance of the nuclear family and how to be your best feminine self.
--:-- Victoria Chamberlain: And they were really big supporters of Donald Trump. So I don't think she can claim an apolitical stance anymore.
--:-- Noel King: I think if we weren't living in this really broken, you know, country where women's rights are just this like, you know, constant object of debate, I don't think she would be quite the lightning rod she is.
--:-- Noel King: Sarah Peterson, Momfluenced is the book and in pursuit of clean countertops is the Substack. Coming up, Evie Magazine, Cosmo for conservatives. What's the sex column like? We're going to get into it.
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--:-- Noel King: Let's be honest. Are you happy with your job? Like, really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that.
--:-- Noel King: Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown, or one we never wanted in the first place. But still, we stick it out.
--:-- Noel King: And we give reasons like, what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place.
--:-- Noel King: And maybe the most common one, isn't everyone kind of miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving.
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--:-- Noel King: That's strawberry.me slash unstuck.
--:-- Noel King: Support for Today Explained comes from Upwork. If you run a business, you know that scaling your business requires the right expertise at the right time.
--:-- Noel King: I sometimes wonder how many of you are running businesses out there. I would love to know. Please email me, noelle at king dot com.
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--:-- Noel King: This is Today Explained. My name is E.J. Dixon, and I am a senior writer at New York Magazine's The Cut.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Tell me about Evie Magazine.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Evie Magazine is a magazine that was started by a model named Brittany Martinez that was sort of branded as like the Gen Z right wing version of Cosmo.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And the mission was basically stemming from her frustration with the fact that most women's magazines are left-leaning.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: You know, they're too permissive about premarital sex. For years, women have been sold this lie by progressive media sources. Sleep around, do hookup culture, don't worry about family and kids, all this stuff.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And now, like, women are more miserable than ever. And she wanted to come up with an alternative for conservative women aged 18 to 35, approximately.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: We're never going to encourage orgies or cheating on your spouse or whatever that women's magazines have talked about for decades.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: So we are counterculture in that way. She wrote an op-ed for this, I would categorize it as a right-leaning website, Quillette.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And she sort of said that the mission was to, quote, empower, educate, and entertain young women with content that celebrates femininity, encourages virtue, and offers a more honest perspective than they get elsewhere.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: She's classier than Cosmo, sexier than Refinery29, and smarter than Bustle.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And I immediately know what that means. Like, at first glance, it really looks like a lot of content that you would find geared toward Gen Z women.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Like, the main story on the homepage right now is an SEO story about how much money Mariah Carey makes every year from All I Want for Christmas is You.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And, like, I bet it's doing good traffic because, like, people are probably searching that this time of year. Ten romantic Christmas holiday ideas. Best accessories. New feminine fragrances to try.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And so it's all like none of that really seems conservative outright, but it's really when you scroll down that you kind of see these articles that are really buried that are more insidious.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Like it's a very obvious pro-Trump conservative slant, but it's sort of buried amongst the more innocuous like apolitical pieces that you find on there.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Can I tell you about one that I found fascinating?
--:-- E.J. Dixon: So it was a first-person article. It was titled, We had sex in a car with strangers zooming by, and it was the most thrilling quickie of my life.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Did you read that one?
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Okay, so this woman is newly married. She's on her honeymoon. She's wearing a bikini. Hobby was shirtless, aviators on, and the humidity had his skin glistening.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: So she's totally into him. Suddenly, he hit the hazard lights and pulled over. My heart instantly raced. I knew exactly what was coming.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And then they proceed to have sex in the car. But here's the thing. After the first paragraph where you're hooked, you're like, I'm going to hear this wild tale of this sexy time.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: There is a disclaimer that says, this is educational material for married women only.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: It made me think, what exactly are you trying to do with this disclaimer? First of all, is Evie Magazine serious? Am I really supposed to avert my eyes from the sexy tale because I'm an unmarried woman?
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Like, what do you think that's trying to say there? And who is it for?
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Yeah, you know, when you were initially describing the angle to me, I was like, huh, that doesn't sound like something that they would run.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: But then when you mentioned that the woman had just gotten married and this was on her honeymoon, I was like, oh, okay, that makes sense.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: So yeah, it makes perfect sense that they would run that disclaimer. They are very, and they have been basically since their genesis, very aggressively anti-premarital sex.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: They sort of adhere to this very old-fashioned line of thinking that sex is for after marriage, sex is for someone you love and if you have sex before marriage that you're somehow spoiled or tainted in some way and men and it always men then men then men will find you won be interested in you anymore.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: I think they serious as a heart attack honestly I think they trying to make money I think they're trying to capitalize on what they believe to be, and correctly, I think, believe to be an untapped audience.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: But I also think they genuinely believe a lot of the stuff that they're writing.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: I mean, you look no further than like the people who you see contributing. Like when I was trying to reach out to writers, when I was reporting the piece out, there were all these names.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Like when I looked at people on LinkedIn, these were people with ties to PragerU, which is this conservative digital media behemoth.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: These were people who, you know, attended Hillsdale College, which is this private Christian college in Michigan with strong ties to the Trump administration.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Like these were like one of the contributors early on was like the conservative influencer, Abby Shapiro, who's the sister of the Daily Wire founder, Ben Shapiro, except she was going by her married name then, Abby Roth.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: I mean, you really only need to look at like the people who have invested in EV adjacent enterprises like the natural family planning app that Brittany Martinez launched to know that they're serious.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Brittany Martinez is also the founder of this planning app called 28, which launched in August 2022.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And it's basically this wellness app that encourages people to adopt natural family planning methods and offers like personalized fitness and nutrition recommendations based on where a user is in their cycle.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Which kind of sounds like innocuous and apolitical on the surface, but it's actually like the anti-birth control argument is like a pretty strong talking point on the right.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: I don't think that birth control is moral. I think that there are a lot of other better, healthier methods that are good for your body and don't introduce hormones into your body.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Actually when Evie you know in the first year or two that Evie was running uh there were a lot of stories that were like very broadly skeptical of birth control in general these are headlines like the birth control pill could increase your risk for breast cancer 13 reasons why you should quit hormonal birth control.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And it didn't disclose the relationship between Evie magazine and 28 so obviously there's sort of an inherent conflict of interest there.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And 28 had conservative backing it had $3 million in backing from Peter Thiel, who's the right-wing billionaire who served on Trump's transition committee.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And she's denied that he has any involvement with Evie in general, but it really does raise questions, especially since 28 was initially branded as 28 by Evie in the URL for 28 initially redirected to Evie.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: It does raise questions about what the agenda is here.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: I think in the past couple of years, there's definitely been a reckoning about the kinds of magazines that women were sold for many years, things like Cosmo, right?
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And we're looking back and we're like, was Cosmo good for women? And I think the answers are mixed, right?
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And so what I'm wondering about is like, I was like, I was like a Cosmo girl in like the early 2000s and whatnot.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: I was reading about how to like, make an appletini. And I do wonder, in 2024, we've got this magazine that is very popular, that appeals to be growing, that is selling a very different story about what it means to be a woman.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And I'll use one of their kind of lines that I read repeatedly, which is, it's great to be feminine, it's not great to be feminist.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And I'm just wondering if you think Evie magazine tells us something about the time that we're living in in the way that I think Cosmo really did tell us something about where we were 20 years ago.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: I do. And this is sort of where my feelings about Evie magazine get a little bit more complicated, because I think everything that you're saying is like totally spot on.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Like, I do think I came of age in the early 2000s where I was being inundated with, you know, the how to give a good blowjob listicles, but also told that I shouldn't dress too sexy and be very, very thin and yeah.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: Yeah, exactly. And like a really bad time in retrospect for young women.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And I do think that this idea that young women— these very conflicting messages that young women got about being sexual were really harmful and continue to do harm to this day.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And I do think that there is a need for a corrective to that. And there is a need for a conversation about how like, well, women were sold a false bill of goods to some extent.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: You know, we were told we could have it all. We were told we could have great sex lives and have these amazing careers and like have these families.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And now as millennials are coming of age, we're sort of slowly realizing that no, like this is actually not possible. in this country. Like, it's really, really hard to have even one of those things.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: And we feel like we've been sold a false bill of goods.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: So I think they're really tapping into that. Whether or not I agree with it as a blanket statement, like, obviously, I don't.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: But I think the, like, I don't think it needs to be either or, you know, like, I don't think it needs to be so black and white as to say, well, casual sex is good for women or casual sex is bad for women.
--:-- E.J. Dixon: I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, but I will say I do give them credit for sort of trying to carve out a space in the conversation.
--:-- Noel King: Thank you.
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