--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I have an idea. Get deranged Jack Smith to take just a tiny portion of the millions of dollars he's spending illegally targeting me. Sir. And let him go to the White House. What? With his army of thugs to solve the cocaine dilemma.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause, followed by a chuckle]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The former president is facing more indictments than all of the previous presidents combined. And as we well know, he loves to blast anyone who dares challenge him, which means he's blasting the people bringing the cases against him, be they prosecutors or lowly court employees. So the judges in some of these cases are being forced to weigh the First Amendment rights of a U.S. citizen and leading presidential candidate against, you know, maintaining the integrity of the American judiciary.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is fine. I'm OK with the events that are unfolding currently. No big deal.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Shushing the former president, forthcoming on Today Explained. Support for Today Explained comes from Adio. Adio is an AI-native customer relationship management platform that Adio says is built for the next era of companies.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A powerful data structure adapts to your business model, sinks in all your contacts in minutes, and enriches your business with actionable data. Adio says it also allows you to create those email sequences, those real-time reports, those powerful automations, which they claim can help you build what matters most, your company.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can go to adio.com slash todayexplained to get 15% off your first year. That's A-T-T-I-O dot com slash todayexplained.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for this show comes from strawberry.me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Or are you stuck in one you've outgrown? Or never wanted in the first place?
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sure, you can probably list the reasons for staying. But are they actually just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from strawberry.me help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your corner.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Go to strawberry.me slash unstuck to claim a special offer.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What do you think today explained this? I don't know. Is it possible to hush the former president of the United States, Donald J. Trump? Yeah, well, maybe. Maybe it is.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I feel like, you know, I don't want to say the jury is still out because it seems like a overdetermined metaphor for the moment. But maybe. The reason I say this is because I've been sitting in a courtroom in New York with the former president over the last several weeks.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what is fascinating to me is that, so outside the courtroom, there's this long hallway and there's a scrum of cameras from all over the world. And people are yelling, Mr. President, Mr. President, do you have anything to say? And then the minute he gets in the courtroom, he has to be completely silent.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he has to sit at the defense table and he can't say anything. Maybe he could whisper to his lawyers, but that's it. The bailiff comes in and says, all rise. He rises. He sits.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, a courtroom is kind of like the last vestiges of the monarchy in the U.S. democratic system. So there's the judge in his, in this case, his robe sitting up higher than everybody.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And when the judge talks, people have to listen. Andrea Bernstein has been reporting on Donald Trump since forever. We got in touch with her between court dates to ask about these gag orders.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: Now, Trump maybe intentionally, maybe not intentionally violated his New York gag order. So the judge kind of fined him a small fine and gave him a second chance and said, if you go and you do this again, you're in trouble.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So is he gagable? Maybe. There are two cases in question here. We started with the one in New York.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: Yeah, so the New York case is a $250 million civil fraud trial against Donald Trump, Don Jr. and Eric Trump, several current or former employees of the Trump Organization, and a bunch of other sort of corporate entities.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: And what it is alleging is a repeated and persistent fraud in New York and a conspiracy to have a persistent and repeated fraud. The complaint demonstrates that Donald Trump falsely inflated his net worth by billions of dollars to unjustly enrich himself and to cheat this system, thereby cheating all of us.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, this is a New York-specific law, and the idea was we're going to pass a law that says you can't be fraudulent in your business in New York, and it doesn't even matter if there's any harm.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: But for the integrity of the New York business community, which is obviously a huge pillar of the New York economy, you can't do this. And that is what Donald Trump is accused of violating.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And in fact, there are seven causes of action, and the judge found that Trump had committed persistent and repeated fraud, which is the first cause of action.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: And now there are these six other causes of action, and that will determine, I think most significantly here, how much money Trump and the Trump Organization and the various defendants have to pay to the state of New York.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The repercussions for Donald Trump and his business organization are incredible. Potential loss of control of significant assets in New York, including a company that employs hundreds of people, and the potential to be banned from doing business, him and his family, in New York State for five years.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What the judge ruled— Okay, so that's where one gag order has been issued. Now let's talk about the other case where one's been issued and revoked, but we'll get to that later.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What is going on in this D.C. gag order case? So in the D.C. gag order case, this is the January 6th case brought by the special counsel, Jack Smith.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: This is a big one. It's the sort of big January 6th case. In other words, did Trump break the law in his actions surrounding January 6th?
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the former president is a very exceptional case here from his maybe sort of small potatoes civil case in New York to his extremely big potatoes criminal case in D.C.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: But before we talk about him specifically, what is a gag order just generally for your, you know, middling criminals that we never hear about?
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: You can have all kinds of gag orders in all kinds of cases. And what they do is they restrict the parameters of a defendant speech if the judge believes that in saying something the defendant is going to disrupt the criminal procedure the fairness of the court process etc etc.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Judges are loathe to impose them but they will do it if they feel that it going to potentially disrupt the trial or the fairness of a criminal proceeding
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: So that's how this applies to your regular criminal, your everyday criminal, one we'd never hear about, alleged criminal, whatever it might be.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How do these gag orders apply to the loudest person, perhaps, on planet Earth? Let's talk about the New York case and the former president.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: Judge Arthur and Goran has kind of been resistant. I mean, a judge doesn't want to do this because Americans hold dear the right to speak, hold dear the First Amendment.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The judge doesn't want to be seen like they are tainting a proceeding by saying you can't speak out about it or that they're putting their thumb on a political campaign.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: So the judge resisted in New York for a long time, even though Trump went for years calling the New York attorney general, Letitia James, who is black, racist.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We have a racist attorney general who's a horror show who ran on the basis that she was going to get Trump before she even knew anything about me.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: The judge was also attacked and the judge kind of let that go. But then Trump's trial begins in New York and he puts up a social media post where he basically attacks the judge's law clerk, trying to show that the process is somehow tainted.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Donald Trump posted on his so-called Truth Social Media account a photo of this principal law clerk with Chuck Schumer and suggested that she was Chuck Schumer's girlfriend.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: There is nothing to suggest, let's be very clear, that the principal law clerk is a girlfriend of Chuck Schumer.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, whenever the former president does this, the individual is, and this has basically been proven over and over again, is subjected to a torrent of Internet hate.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: And what the concern is, is number one, that can taint the process, especially because it can intimidate witnesses.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And also, at the very outset of one of these cases, when Mar-a-Lago was searched, you might remember that an individual who read the president's social media posts at the time showed up at the Cincinnati office of the FBI with dangerous weapons.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: So all it takes is one deranged individual to read that and commit an act of violence. And so the judge said, no, I am imposing a gag order as to my staff. You cannot speak ill of my staff.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's been breaking news in the case against Donald Trump. Judge Arthur N. Goran has now put a gag order on all parties in the case, a specific gag order, though.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: And Trump agreed. Trump said out loud to the judge, I will do this. I will not attack your staff.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he took down a social media post, and he seemingly did not. Until sometime last week, it emerged that the former president had left the attack on the New York judge's clerk up on his website.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: Trump's defense was, it was inadvertent. There was a staffer, left it up. We meant to take it down. We forgot it was on the website.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the judge said, okay, I'm going to fine you $5,000, which is a negligible amount. $5,000 for an alleged billionaire. Right.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: But what he said was, maybe this was inadvertent. And this is because this is your first offense. Just don't do it again.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the judge said, if you do do it again, you can get a really significant financial penalty and or jail time.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I think Trump gets sort of one chance here. OK, so an initial taste, a little appetizer, a $5,000 fine for leaving up a post that violated this gag order.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's the New York case. I love an appetizer fine. But the ramifications could increase. The consequences could become greater for the former president.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What is up in D.C.? This is the case in which we saw what happens when the president unleashes violent speech.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: When I was working on the previous podcast I worked on, Will Be Wild, I spoke to so many domestic terrorism experts who said this is not theoretical. Can speech lead to violence? We know it does.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So what the judge said is you can't have the threat of violence hanging over a criminal court proceeding. You just cannot and expect to have integrity of a proceeding.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: So she issued a gag order. She really thread the needle on it. She said to Trump, you cannot attack Jack Smith. You cannot attack witnesses. You cannot attack the defense. And you cannot attack court personnel.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But you can attack President Biden. You can attack the Justice Department. You can say anything you want about the people of Washington, D.C. OK.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: Trump's lawyers went to court and they said, you know, we want to appeal this. We want to have more briefing on it. And we want to stay.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the gag order was issued on a Monday. After a court argument. It was stayed on a Friday.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrea Bernstein: And over the weekend, Trump attacks Jack Smith. He calls him deranged, which is his favorite moniker for Jack Smith.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I've named him Deranged Jack Smith. And, you know, I know this seems funny, but I think that for so many years, I covered Trump and people were like, is he ever going to be called to account?
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is the criminal justice system or the justice system I'm ever going to say you can't do these things. The premise behind that thinking was some kind of court action would actually be a constraint.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's the third branch of government. It can say what you can and can't do. But what Trump does when he attacks judges and he attacks Jack Smith and when he attacks potential witnesses, what he does is he implants in people's minds a sense of like the justice system is no good.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It can't be trusted. So he is undermining confidence in the entire justice system when he does this. So it's not just sort of Trump being Trump.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It has a real life effect. And I think reading the judge's order, Judge Tanya Chutkin in D.C., that is what you see. A concern that these are not just sort of funny words.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're not just showmanship so he can get more votes or get attention. But they actually affect the criminal justice system.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you think these judges have sort of met their match in trying to navigate these cases with someone like the former president who has such a way of I don know maneuvering this legal system to his advantage
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, looking at these two cases, so far, I mean, one of the things that's interesting about Trump is how far will he push it? And so far, he will not directly violate a judge's order intentionally, so far as we know.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So assuming, benefit of the doubt, that Trump people left this thing on their website, I mean, who reads websites, right? That they left it on their website by mistake, we'll just kind of assume that that's the case.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It does seem that Trump will abide by it, as he did with the D.C. gag order. So long as it was in effect, he didn't actually technically violate it.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So in theory, it can work. And we will see as this court process plays out.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, we're definitely, all of us, walking along in a fog. We cannot see into the future because we've never, ever in the history of this country had anything like this.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Andrea Bernstein, when she's not hanging with the former president in court, she's reporting on the guy who helped push America's judiciary rightward. His name's Leonard Leo.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We Don't Talk About Leonard is a three-part series from ProPublica and WNYC's On the Media. You can find On the Media wherever you find us.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We are going to ask a prosecutor who worked on the Mueller investigation to weigh in on these gag orders when we're back on Today Explained.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards. These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program. You swipe your card and you get one cent on the hundred dollars.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But with your rent, frequently you just pay month after month. You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head. Not anymore, says Built Rewards.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Your home isn't just where you sleep. It's your community. And Built wants you to go out and do things in the community. You can eat at your favorite local restaurants, then earn more points.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios. You can enjoy exclusive experiences. Just for BILT members every month.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When you're ready to travel, they say BILT points can be converted to miles or hotel points all around the world. You can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood wherever you call home by joining BILT.com slash explained.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash explained.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for this show comes from Macy's. It's almost fall, and that means it's time to cycle your wardrobe to the cold setting.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because while everyone loves a breezy summer outfit, let's be real, layering is even more fun. That's why Macy's Fall Fashion Guide has everything you need to piece together the perfect look for you.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's your one-stop shop for fall's latest trends and must-haves, curated by their experts. Add a statement shoe to your collection, like the calf-hair loafers from Steve Madden.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Or tap into your romantic side, with flowy dresses from Cece and sheer pieces from INC. You can even throw in some textural layers for contrast, like a faux fur bomber jacket from Karl Lagerfeld Paris.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Whether your old favorite sweater or coat is on its last threads, or you're just craving a new vibe to switch things up, Macy's has got you covered this season.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Find the perfect layering pieces for you by exploring the Macy's Fall Fashion Style Guide. Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Bing, bing, bing, bong, bong, bong, bong, bing. Andrew Weissman. I teach at NYU Law School, and I co-host the Prosecuting Donald Trump podcast.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: And you maybe were once a prosecutor yourself, correct? That would be true. Okay, great. So as a former prosecutor, have you ever asked for a gag order?
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: You know, it's interesting. I don't know that I asked for it, but I've been on cases where they've been imposed. They're not very common.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: What is common is restrictions on what lawyers can say. What's a little bit more unusual is when it applies to the parties.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: So in the special counsel Mueller investigation, which I was on, that applied to Paul Manafort and to Roger Stone because the court imposed these additional restrictions because they were doing things to either tamper with witnesses or to threaten violence or to just interfere with the jury pool.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: Judge Amy Berman Jackson said she could not turn a blind eye after prosecutors alleged Manafort tried to influence what potential witnesses might testify about his lobbying work with Ukraine.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: Roger Stone's was the most famous case because that was one where there was a photo of the really respected district judge posted online by Roger Stone and next to her face were crosshairs.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: Today, Stone repeatedly apologized, calling it a stupid lapse of judgment. Judge Jackson said his apology, quote, rings quite hollow.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: And with that, the judge issued her ruling, a full gag order. Stone is not to speak with anyone publicly about his case, period.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: Everybody is entitled to a fair trial. And that means not just the defendant, but also the government, and that means the public as well.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: So that means that you don't want to have witnesses be afraid to come forward and tell the truth. You don't want their family members to be afraid for the same reason.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: You don't want court staff and court officers and prosecutors and the judges, law clerks, to feel threatened in any way just for doing their job.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: That's part of the judicial system. And so this is a step that's taken by courts in unusual circumstances, to be fair, to make sure that nothing that the defendant or defendant's counsel or the prosecutors are doing that would interfere with the integrity of the process.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: And the whole idea is that both sides will have their day in court.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: We're talking about unusual circumstances here. And now the former president has received a fine for violating a gag order.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: But as the penalties increase and the circumstances grow more dire there is this sort of looming jail time hanging over him.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: Could one of these judges send the former president, who's running to be re-elected, to jail for throwing bombs at prosecutors, at witnesses, at court employees, at judges?
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: The answer to that is yes, it could happen. But before that would happen, there are a couple things.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: One, I do think that we should see if there is a violation. What exactly is the violation?
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: I think everyone always says, oh, he's going to violate. I'm not so sure about that. Because you know what? I don't think he wants to go to jail.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: So I think he will push around the edges and go up to the line. But I think with respect to naming people, so I just don't know that he's going to do it because you know what? The threat of going to jail is a big deal.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: So for instance, in the New York case, he was told it's a very narrow order, which is just essentially don't threaten my law clerks.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: And so I don't know that Donald Trump is going to do that, because I really do think the judge there has now put him on notice twice with respect to that.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: So if he does do that, it's going to be on him that there are those consequences.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: And you don't think either judge, say in New York or in D.C., will be cowed by the prospect of sending a, you know, formidable presidential candidate to jail?
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: You think they'll do it if they have to? If they have to, yes.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: I don't think any judge particularly likes to send somebody to jail pre-trial before there's been a determination of guilt.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: I saw that both in the Roger Stone case and in the Paul Manafort case.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: I mean, remember, Paul Manafort was indicted a second time for conduct while he was on bail, which was tampering with two witnesses.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: And you could see the judge struggling with the idea of whether he should be in jail awaiting trial.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: And by the way, it doesn't have to go from zero to 60 immediately. It can be incremental. It could be house arrest. It could be screening of truth social posts.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: There are a number of things that could be done. But I do think at the end of the day, If it were to continue and you were to have these kinds of direct intentional violations that really posed significant risk of violence, then I think a judge would be well within his or her rights to impose that kind of sanction.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: Hmm. There's these core tensions here in these cases. They're very different cases where these two gag orders have been issued.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: But in both cases, you've got the American judicial system going up against a former president, which is, of course, unprecedented in these cases, to try and maintain the rule of law.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: And then you've got this former president who's running for re-election and who's deeply invested in discrediting this system and discrediting all the players involved.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: You know, what happens if he's successful? What kind of precedent does that set?
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: That's what I call the apocalyptic question.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: So Donald Trump has been exceedingly cagey and clever about attacking any people or institutions that pose a limit on his authority.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: So the media. The fake news followed us. They are the fake, fake, disgusting news.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: As I know very well from personal experience, he has attacked and undermined the credibility of prosecutors and the Department of Justice.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: But despite the demented prosecution of our movement by our corrupt and highly partisan Department of Injustice, we're getting stronger by the day.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: He's obviously done that with respect to people in Congress. Together we will take on the ultra-left-wing liars, losers, creeps, perverts, and freaks who are devouring the future of this state like a swarm of locusts.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: And we'll stand up to crazy Nancy Pelosi who ruined San Francisco. How's her husband doing, by the way? Anybody know?
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: And I think what we're seeing now is a true test of the judicial system, which by and large has held up extremely well during the Trump administration.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: And since then, this will be the test of a lifetime for our country as to whether there's a sufficient number of people in the United States who believe in the rule of law and that there should be checks and balances in the system and believe in the jury system.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: So, you know, it remains to be seen how that will fare.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: I tend to be, probably because I'm an institutionalist and I worked as a prosecutor and defense lawyer for so long, I tend to have a lot of faith in the system.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: I tend to have a lot of faith in the people seeing the evidence at a trial and being able to evaluate it for themselves.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Andrew Weissman: And there being enough people to keep the country on a course that is consistent with its history and the Constitution of the United States.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Andrew Weissman, he's got a podcast. It's called Prosecuting Donald Trump.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Ramisver, and we've got a podcast called Today Explained.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today's was produced by Isabel Angel.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Edited by Matthew Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, and mixed by Patrick Boyd.
--:-- [Sound effects: A pause]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Until next time.
--:-- [Theme music starts playing]
