--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The biggest story in the country right now is one of gross incompetence.
--:-- [Discussion begins]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: By now, you've surely heard about the group chat where a bunch of our nation's top security brass accidentally added a journalist to a Signal thread where plans to bomb Houthis in Yemen were laid out.
--:-- Noel King: The president of the United States said it's news to him. I don't know anything about it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm not a big fan of the Atlantic.
--:-- Noel King: The Fox News Secretary of Defense is trying to discredit the journalist who was added to the chat against his will.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're talking about a deceitful and highly discredited so-called journalist.
--:-- Noel King: And Speaker Mike Johnson says everyone did a great job.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What you did see though, I think, was top-level officials doing their job, doing it well.
--:-- Noel King: The federal government is not in its accountability era, but somehow, concurrently, This administration is calling for federal judges to be impeached for doing their actual jobs.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That is coming up on Today Explained.
--:-- [Support for the show]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Adio. Adio is an AI-native customer relationship management platform that Adio says is built for the next era of companies.
--:-- Noel King: A powerful data structure adapts to your business model, sinks in all your contacts in minutes, and enriches your business with actionable data.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Adio says it also allows you to create those email sequences, those real-time reports, those powerful automations, which they claim can help you build what matters most, your company.
--:-- Noel King: You can go to adio.com slash todayexplained to get 15% off your first year.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's A-T-T-I-O dot com slash todayexplained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: AI agents are getting pretty impressive. You might not even realize you're listening to one right now.
--:-- Noel King: We work 24-7 to resolve customer inquiries. No hold music, no canned answers, no frustration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Visit Sierra.ai to learn more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, yay. Oh, yay. Oh, yay. Oh, yay.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today explained Kate Shaw is a law professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Cary Law School.
--:-- Noel King: She's also the co-host of a podcast called Strict Scrutiny.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We asked her what's up with Trump and the judges.
--:-- Kate Shaw: Trump has fared remarkably poorly in litigation in the last two months.
--:-- Noel King: He really is on an impressive losing streak.
--:-- Kate Shaw: He's 0 for 3 in the courts of appeals in trying to defend the constitutionality of his birthright citizenship executive order.
--:-- Noel King: He has been losing in cases challenging various aspects of Elon Musk's role in government and Doge and the activities of Doge.
--:-- Kate Shaw: In the only two cases to reach the Supreme Court so far, those were both like very early stage procedural matters, but he lost both of them.
--:-- Noel King: And he's notched a couple of wins in the lower courts, but mostly on kind of procedural issues.
--:-- Kate Shaw: Is this person really the right person to be bringing a challenge?
--:-- Noel King: So, you know, he's losing a lot and he's clearly really unhappy about it.
--:-- Kate Shaw: And the biggest controversy in all of the losses is perhaps the situation with El Salvador.
--:-- Noel King: I mean, I think it's the one that he is the most incensed about.
--:-- Kate Shaw: That seems clear, right?
--:-- Noel King: And so that is the invocation of this 1798 statute, the Alien Enemies Act, that's been used, right, three times, always in wartime, 1812, World War I, World War II, now.
--:-- Kate Shaw: They try to make an argument that this Venezuelan gang, TDA, Trande Auregua, is somehow working in concert with the Venezuelan government in ways that makes them a state actor that we're basically engaged in active hostilities with, because that's the predicate for invoking this old statute.
--:-- Noel King: And that that allows essentially the designating individuals as alien enemies and expelling them essentially to this prison in El Salvador.
--:-- Kate Shaw: That has been challenged and it is before this district judge, Judge Boesberg.
--:-- Noel King: And that seems to be the kind of, it's not, you know, there's been some preliminary determinations made, but it's pretty clear the administration is going to lose big in front of Judge Boesberg.
--:-- Kate Shaw: But for sure, this is the one that I think has Trump the most spun up based on his social media.
--:-- Noel King: Truth Social.
--:-- Kate Shaw: Judge James Bosberg is doing everything in his power to usurp the power of the presidency.
--:-- Noel King: He is a local, unknown judge, a grandstander looking for publicity.
--:-- Kate Shaw: And it cannot be for any other reason because his rulings are so ridiculous and inept.
--:-- Noel King: Save America!
--:-- Kate Shaw: Yeah, I mean, he has taken to Truth Social and basically called for Bozberg to be impeached.
--:-- Noel King: He has called him a radical left lunatic of a judge, a troublemaker and an agitator, which I don't know this judge, but no, that is not an accurate characterization of him, right?
--:-- Kate Shaw: He was put on the D.C. actually local court by George W. Bush and then on the district court by President Obama and then also designated to serve on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court by Chief Justice John Roberts, right, well-known liberal.
--:-- Noel King: So, you know, this is not a judge who is in any way a radical left lunatic.
--:-- Kate Shaw: It's a preposterous characterization.
--:-- Noel King: But calling for his impeachment based on this, you know, preliminary set of rulings is an enormous escalation in terms of the way Trump has been talking about and acting toward the judiciary.
--:-- Kate Shaw: And is that calling for a judge's impeachment, like, has that been reserved for Judge Boesberg?
--:-- Noel King: Or does that apply to a number of these court battles that the Trump administration is facing, be it on birthright citizenship or doge or immigration, what have you?
--:-- Kate Shaw: He has been criticizing federal judges and others, I think including Musk, have called for other impeachments.
--:-- Noel King: A corrupt judge protecting corruption. He needs to be impeached now.
--:-- Kate Shaw: I'd like to propose that the worst 1% of appointed judges, as determined by elected bodies, be fired every year.
--:-- Noel King: This will weed out the most corrupt and least competent.
--:-- Kate Shaw: I think this might be the first that Trump has called for himself.
--:-- Noel King: We have very bad judges, and these are judges that shouldn't be allowed.
--:-- Kate Shaw: The judge that we're talking about, you look at his other rulings, I mean rulings unrelated.
--:-- Noel King: But having to do with me, he's a lunatic.
--:-- Kate Shaw: How do judges fight back when a president or a, you know, all but official vice president call for their impeachments?
--:-- Noel King: I mean, I think it's a good question and judges are very limited in what they can do, right?
--:-- Kate Shaw: They can't take to, you know, public sort of facing communications channels.
--:-- Noel King: They don't have a bully pulpit the way the president does.
--:-- Kate Shaw: They cannot you know tweet or skeet or truth or whatever in their own defense.
--:-- Noel King: And so they you know they have a lot of power in a very limited domain
--:-- Kate Shaw: And so they can certainly respond if they want in their you know, discussions with counsel in front of them and in their written opinions to things that are said outside of the courtroom.
--:-- Noel King: But like, you know, when if it actually escalates to the point of now, there have been some articles of impeachment already introduced around a couple of these federal judges, whether they go anywhere is a different question.
--:-- Kate Shaw: But I mean, And there's the defending themselves in the court of public opinion.
--:-- Noel King: But then there's also the possibility that if actually the House gets serious about this, they could actually have to end up defending themselves in, you know, the actual United States Congress against impeachment.
--:-- Kate Shaw: How often do we see judges getting impeached?
--:-- Noel King: Pretty infrequently.
--:-- Kate Shaw: So there have been 15 impeachments of federal judges.
--:-- Noel King: Only eight of them have resulted in conviction.
--:-- Kate Shaw: So impeachment is a two-step process.
--:-- Noel King: So we say somebody has been impeached if a majority of the House of Representatives has voted to approve one or more articles of impeachment against them.
--:-- Kate Shaw: So it just requires a simple majority in the House.
--:-- Noel King: And then again, colloquially, we say the person has been impeached.
--:-- Kate Shaw: But then they actually just go to the other House of Congress, the Senate, and that's where there's an actual trial that happens.
--:-- Noel King: And it requires a two-thirds supermajority to actually convict someone in a Senate trial, which results in their removal from office.
--:-- Kate Shaw: And that's happened, I think, in eight of the 15 cases involving federal judges.
--:-- Noel King: So impeachment, again, is the first half of the two-step process in the Constitution.
--:-- Kate Shaw: And it does not seem impossible to me that we might see federal judges actually subject to real impeachment proceedings in the House, although 67 votes in the Senate is very hard for me to see ever occurring.
--:-- Noel King: But that's still playing within the boundaries of what's legally acceptable.
--:-- Kate Shaw: What about if they just openly defy the courts?
--:-- Noel King: That's kind of what is at stake with this case with Bosberg and the flights to El Salvador.
--:-- Kate Shaw: Do we have concrete evidence that that has happened yet?
--:-- Noel King: I don't think so.
--:-- Kate Shaw: I think we are close.
--:-- Kate Shaw: I think that this kind of, you know, sort of delicate dance in front of Judge Bozberg in which the administration does suggest that it is complying with, you know, a narrow and I think probably wrong, but at least like defensible in like words and like legal sounding language argument that they weren't subject to this order.
--:-- Noel King: They weren't defying the order. They were trying to comply with the order.
--:-- Kate Shaw: And so they are at least not saying to the court, you essentially have no power over us.
--:-- Noel King: They are maybe inching a little closer to that.
--:-- Kate Shaw: I think it matters a lot.
--:-- Noel King: They're continuing to make legal arguments and they're continuing to appeal.
--:-- Kate Shaw: And I think in some ways, like, the real, like, kind of red lights start flashing if they stop doing that and simply don't comply.
--:-- Noel King: Like here where the president is making claims about national security, the president's power is always understood to be sort of at its apex.
--:-- Kate Shaw: And so they think they have the strongest legal footing for suggesting a court has no power over them here than in other spaces where it's obvious that courts absolutely have the power to review and maybe invalidate things the executive branch has done.
--:-- Noel King: And interestingly, one source of that, you know, vast executive power comes from that liberal you mentioned earlier, Chief Justice John Roberts, who last year helped expand our views of presidential power in this country.
--:-- Kate Shaw: But Chief Justice John Roberts in this case, especially when it comes to this fight between Trump and this D.C. Judge Boasberg, there's a bit of tension there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah.
--:-- Noel King: So as you just referenced, July 1st of last year, Roberts authors this opinion granting sweeping new authorities and immunities to presidents and ex-presidents.
--:-- Kate Shaw: The Supreme Court last July said that essentially Trump is allowed to commit crimes while he is president.
--:-- Noel King: It says that he is immune from prosecution for virtually any criminal act he commits using the powers of the presidency.
--:-- Kate Shaw: And I think it sort of hangs over virtually everything that we've seen in the last two months in terms of these extravagant assertions of executive authority and kind of disdain at the idea that courts or any outside institution could act to check a president in any way.
--:-- Noel King: It's like there's a straight line between some of the description of presidential power in that Trump versus United States case and sort of the predicament we find ourselves in.
--:-- Kate Shaw: And so I do think that John Roberts bears a ton of responsibility for the way the administration has comported itself and kind of broadcast its vision of essentially boundless executive power.
--:-- Noel King: So it is interesting that Roberts kind of came out swinging after Trump issued this, you know, on Truth Social, essentially like kind of suggestion that Bozberg should be impeached.
--:-- Kate Shaw: Roberts issued this very unusual statement, kind of a rebuke of President Trump.
--:-- Noel King: For more than two centuries, it has been established that impeachment is not an appropriate response to disagreement concerning a judicial decision.
--:-- Kate Shaw: The normal appellate review process exists for that purpose.
--:-- Noel King: And, you know, it was like measured language came out swinging.
--:-- Kate Shaw: It's obviously like, you know, sort of an overstatement, but it is still unusual.
--:-- Noel King: The chief justice rarely kind of wades into the political fray in any way other than he issues his opinions.
--:-- Kate Shaw: He does like this very annual year-end report on the state of the federal courts.
--:-- Noel King: And that's basically the way he speaks about the court.
--:-- Kate Shaw: And so he was obviously worried enough to speak up.
--:-- Noel King: Any response from the Trump administration, from the White House?
--:-- Kate Shaw: Trump likes to have the last word.
--:-- Noel King: But the fact that he did not respond forcefully to Roberts, I think, actually did suggest to me that maybe it landed in some way.
--:-- Kate Shaw: I don't know that the White House wants to antagonize John Roberts, at least, you know, kind of directly and explicitly, at least right now.
--:-- Noel King: And in some ways, again, to the sort of earlier point, that does suggest that they are still in some ways like dwelling in the land of law.
--:-- Kate Shaw: And so I think that's important.
--:-- Noel King: OK, so it sounds like the Supreme Court still has some sway and some deference from Trump, too.
--:-- Kate Shaw: But that doesn't mean Supreme Court justices have been spared the wrath of the greater MAGA community.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What did Amy do next on Today Explained?
--:-- [Support for the show]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards.
--:-- Noel King: These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You swipe your card and you get one cent on the $100.
--:-- Noel King: But with your rent, frequently, you just pay month after month.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: From Pushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and Heavyweight is back.
--:-- Noel King: The new season is bigger than ever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Bigger hopes?
--:-- Noel King: I keep waiting for this moment when he says, Mom, I get it. I'm sorry.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Bigger dreams.
--:-- Noel King: Tom Hanks wants to meet with you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is a real chance.
--:-- Noel King: And bigger heartbreaks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I thought it would be my movie moment.
--:-- Noel King: And maybe he would even whisper in my ear, I've always been in love with you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Check out new episodes of Heavyweight on Apple Podcasts.
--:-- [Support for the show]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for the show today comes from LifeKit, the podcast from NPR.
--:-- Noel King: What's in your life kit?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm asking.
--:-- Noel King: They didn't ask that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Every day you have to make choices that might shape the direction of your life, but you can't flip to the back of the book to find an answer key.
--:-- Noel King: Instead, you can listen to the LifeKit podcast from NPR.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: LifeKit offers real stories about common issues like relationships, finances, parenting, and your career.
--:-- Noel King: If you're looking to move with more intention or just need thoughtful guidance on living better, LifeKit delivers strategies to help you make meaningful, sustainable change.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: From fitness routines to mental resilience, navigating personal goals to tackling burnout, each episode is full of relevant insights and clear takeaways about things we all could use a little help with.
--:-- Noel King: LifeKit wants to help you approach your own life with confidence and clarity and walk away with a game plan you can implement right away.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Enough from me. Go listen to the show Life Kit.
--:-- Noel King: It's a podcast from NPR.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- [Discussion continues]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Did you watch Trump's address to that joint session of Congress, the one with the cute signs and Representative Al Green standing up and waving his cane?
--:-- Noel King: And when it was over, Trump descended from the dais.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And among the first hands he shook were those of the Supreme Court justices.
--:-- Noel King: But they didn't all look so happy to be shaken.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Look at the way Amy Coney Barrett looks at the president on Tuesday night.
--:-- Noel King: Go for it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ugh.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She hates it.
--:-- Noel King: Go back to it again, Rob.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Look at that smirk.
--:-- Noel King: That's disgusting.
--:-- Noel King: And now MAGA is mad.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Uh-oh.
--:-- Noel King: The MAGAs are very upset with Amy Coney Barrett.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I wonder what it was that she did.
--:-- Noel King: Oh, her job.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She's a little squishy, and it's, you know, concerning.
--:-- Noel King: I'll tell you, just like as a female who leans right, kind of sick of like the female conservatives who get appointed to the Supreme Court, Sandra Day, O'Connor, now Amy Coney Barrett, like being too squishy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She's weak, and she's scared of her shadow.
--:-- Noel King: Amy Coney Barrett wants to be praised by the New York Times.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She's weak AF.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Ian Milhiser, Supreme Court correspondent at Vox.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Remind me who appointed Justice Amy Coney Barrett.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Donald Trump, as a matter of fact, appointed Justice Barrett.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That doesn't make sense.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Make it make sense, Ian.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's going on?
--:-- Ian Milhiser: I mean, to a certain extent, it makes a lot of sense.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So like one thing that comes up all the time with the Supreme Court is that when a president is picking justices, They pick them hoping that they will fall in line based on whatever issues the president cares about right at that moment.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Franklin Roosevelt's justices famously were all over the map on issues of race.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So like 20 years after Roosevelt appointed them, you couldn't tell like which Roosevelt justices would be on the right side of segregation and which ones would be on the wrong side of segregation because Roosevelt didn't care about that.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: What he cared about was the New Deal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The program for social security that is now pending before the Congress is a necessary part of the future unemployment policy of the government.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: And so all of them voted to uphold the New Deal because they were vetted for that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We must begin now to make provision for the future.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Chief Justice Roberts was picked because he had really broad, really extreme views about executive power.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: George W. Bush picked him because what George W. Bush cared about was Guantanamo Bay and that he wanted to speak with that would uphold his attempt to put suspected terrorists in Guantanamo Bay.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: And Roberts did vote with George W. Bush on most Guantanamo Bay related questions.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Roberts famously broke with the Republican Party on Obamacare.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: God save the United States and this honorable court.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I have the announcement in case number 11393, National Federation of Independent Business versus Sebelius.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: And the reason why is because in 2005, George W. Bush couldn't have known that Obamacare was going to be signed into law in 2010.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we didn't, the White House didn't vet him for that.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: This portion of the Affordable Care Act is upheld.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so Barrett, the important thing to know about Barrett, she is very, very, very conservative.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: And on every single issue that Republicans cared about in 2020 when she was appointed, whether it is abortion, whether it is affirmative action, like on all the kind of stuff that Republicans cared about in 2020, she has fallen in line with the Republican Party.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But there's now new issues coming up.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: You know, Trump wants to get rid of birthright citizenship for a lot of people.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He is claiming the power to do something called impoundment, where he just cancels federal spending that Congress has appropriated.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Those were not issues that were really being discussed in 2020.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the first term Trump White House didn't vet her for that kind of stuff.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: And surprise, turns out she has her own opinions that are different than Donald Trump's.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Tell us about the cases that are getting under conservative skin right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, I want to be clear again.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: There aren't that many of them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She's a very, very conservative judge.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: But there was one really high-profile case recently involving USAID the foreign aid agency that Donald Trump is trying to eliminate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We have some breaking news that came in over the break.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: A federal judge has just paused the USAID administrative leave.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Supreme Court getting involved in a case involving the Trump administration's use of federal funds, nearly $2 billion in frozen foreign aid at issue in a case testing the constitutional separation of powers.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: The specific issue in this case was very narrow.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A judge ordered the State Department to pay the vendors who had provided services to USAID before the Trump administration started canceling contracts.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: And it went up to the Supreme Court and in a five to four decision, the court left in place the lower court's order, which said that the government has to pay these vendors.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Two Republicans, Roberts and Barrett, crossed over and voted with the Democrats.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: And so that's why that order remained in effect.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That was the big one.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Why can't we just get like this Judge Aileen Cannon down in Florida?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Get a female Alito on there.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Get somebody with some, you know, rhetorical balls who will hold as fiercely to conservative principles in the judiciary as the left wing does.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Amy Coney Barrett is a warning against the dangers of Republican DEI.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Jack, is his name pronounced Basobiec, you know, who is a central figure in the Pizzagate scandal, called her a DEI hire.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, you know, you said disparagement.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Well, kind of goes to show you that we need to be a little bit more discerning in the future when it comes to these judicial nominees.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, the only legal scholar I'm aware of who's really gone after her is a law professor named Josh Blackman.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: And I mean, funny story, I literally used to fight Josh Blackman.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We used to be in a kung fu class together.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: I've known him for a very long time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In like a socially acceptable way, you literally hit this person.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: No, I literally used to throw punches at him.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: He has kicked me in the chest before.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As a public intellectual, he tends to take maximalist MAGA-friendly positions on pretty much every issue.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: And so he wrote a long piece that was very critical of Barrett and suggested that it was a mistake to appoint her.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So on the fringes of the Republican Party, you have people going after Barrett.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: And the only reason why I think that matters is because people on the fringes of the Republican Party have a lot of influence within the Trump White House.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so there is a real chance that these sorts of criticisms – I mean Trump can't remove Barrett.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: She serves for life.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But that it's going to influence who he appoints in the future.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This just brings me back to like why are people mad in the first place, especially on the right when you have Justice Barrett, Chief Justice John Roberts.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Sure, you know, having some judicial independence from MAGA on occasion, but also these are still people who see Donald Trump as someone who should have vast executive power.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And people are mad at them or especially her.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Is it just sexism, Ian?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, it's certainly, you know, I never rule sexism out.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: But like I think to a certain extent the Republican Party is spoiled by people like Justice Samuel Alito.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There was a study that one lawyer did where they – he looked at all of the cases that the court has decided over the course of like a 10-year period involving a jurisdictional issue called standing.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: That like there's some ideological content there but it should be fairly non-ideological.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what this lawyer found was that in every single case, Justice Alito ruled in favor of conservative parties and against liberal parties.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: So like there are judges out there who are just rubber stamps for the Republican agenda.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Barrett is not that.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Most of the time she's going to reach the same conclusion as Donald Trump's lawyers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sometimes she does not.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: And I think what all of these attacks on Barrett are really about are people in Trump's base trying to, you know, rise up and say, no, we are not doing that Barrett thing again.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We are not having independent thinkers.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: We are having loyalists.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And like that is what we expect from the White House this time around.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: You can't go against Donald Trump when you're on the payroll.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Absolutely not.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And now they are calling her a DI hire.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Ian, we're getting listener questions already.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They want to know if you've ever sparred with Amy Coney Barrett.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: I have not sparred.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I want to make clear I have never once thrown a punch at Amy Coney Barrett.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: The only physical contact I think I've ever had with her is I probably shook her hand.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, good.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Millhiser, Vox.com. He's got books, too. Find them wherever you find your books.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Devin Schwartz and Gabrielle Burbay made the show today.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Patrick Boyd and Andrea Christensdaugher mixed the show today.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Jolie Myers and Laura Bullard edited and facted the show today.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: That's it for the show today.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The show's called Today Explained.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Support for the show comes from Mercury.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Close that deal, yeah you won.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Do that, doing that, did that, done.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now you can do that, do that with Acrobat.
--:-- Ian Milhiser: Now you can do that, do that with the all new Acrobat.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's time to do your best work with the all new Adobe Acrobat Studio.
