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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): I learned a whole lot hosting Today Explained this week about Canadian politics and about toothbrushes. I learned that the Quip has thousands of verified five-star reviews and is backed by over 20,000 dental professionals. I also learned that Quip starts at $25. And if you go to getquip.com slash explained right now, you get your first refill pack for free with a Quip electric toothbrush. That's your first refill pack free at G-E-T-Q-U-I-P dot com slash explained.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Last week, I was, like I'm sure a lot of you were, riveted by the Michael Cohen hearings. And I kept hearing this one name come up again and again. Allen Weisselberg, that's signed by Allen Weisselberg. In the office with me was Allen Weisselberg, the chief financial officer of the Trump organization. I was at the time with Allen Weisselberg. There are other people that we should be meeting with. Allen Weisselberg. Allen Weisselberg certainly knows more than anybody, Sarah, about Donald Trump's finances.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Congressional investigations are heating up. Democrats want to use their new House majority to dig into Trump's finances. Six House committees armed with subpoena power are now poised to examine every facet of President Trump's life, his campaign, his White House, his foundation, and the business that made him famous. Allen Weisselberg, who's a reticent, quiet man who has not sought the limelight, is suddenly going to be, I think, one of the pivotal forces in helping people better understand the answers to all of those questions.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Tim O'Brien, you are executive editor of Bloomberg Opinion. You are the author of Trump Nation. You probably know more about President Trump's finances than President Trump might or nearly any other person. And you are probably the best person to ask about Allen Weisselberg, this name who kept coming up during the Cohen hearings. Who is this guy?
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Alan Weisselberg joined the Trump Organization when Donald Trump's father, Fred, ran it. And Alan was the accountant for the Trumps back in the 70s. So he handled all of the founders' business dealings as well as his personal finances. And Weisselberg over the years graduated to becoming the chief financial officer or CFO of the Trump Organization. And in that capacity, he handles the financing on most major purchases Trump does, both as an individual and as a business person. He's handled the president's personal income tax returns. And he is one of two people in the organization, other than Trump himself, through which no deal could pass without his blessing.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: The other one's a guy named Jason Greenblatt, who was a lawyer there and is now Trump's special envoy to Israel. And now that he has come up a lot in these congressional hearings, what can members of Congress do to get information from him? What should they be asking for? Can they force him to appear in front of a committee?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): They can certainly force Allen Weisselberg to appear in front of a committee. It probably wouldn't be wise for anyone at this stage that the House is looking at to simply blow off an invitation to come and talk.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: At this point, the various House committees have also asked for voluntary disclosure or sharing of information that's already been shared with other investigators. When push comes to shove and this investigation gets more traction, subpoenas could be issued. And then you're going to have some real legal clashes.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: I suspect that Allen Weisselberg, of course, will show up. I suspect also that his lawyer will advise him not to cooperate as fully probably as some members of Congress would like him to.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): That doesn't mean, however, that he is not hugely important. And he's hugely important because of the classic investigative reporting advice of follow the money. But what happens if he pleads the fifth or refuses to answer questions? Like, is that a scenario that seems likely?
--:-- Tim O'Brien: It does. And I think that that's when the whole issue of Congress's subpoena power and these committees subpoena power will come into play.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): You know, specifically when you look at people like Adam Schiff and Jerry Nadler, they're both trained attorneys. What we learned from the Cohen testimony was that he directly implicated the president in various crimes, both while seeking the office of president and while in the White House.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: They know the ins and outs of the law. We're also looking at persistent allegations that the Russians have been laundering money through the Trump organization. I don't know that that's true. But if it is, again, it's a profound compromise of this president.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Who can answer that question for you? Who do you need to talk to?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Well, we'll need to talk to some of the banks that have been doing business with Mr. Trump. But we also will want to speak with the accountants, the chief financial officers for the Trump organization.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And Adam Schiff just hired a crackerjack person to lead his legal team and his investigative team, Dan Goldman, who's a veteran of the Southern District. They know their ways around how to deal with witnesses who don't want to cooperate.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): So I think there could be some legal jousting here. But we're at a point now where the Trump family and people who work for the Trump organization can't simply look away or flick their nose at these issues around financial conflicts of interest or potential financial improprieties.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: It won't be up to them to just walk away from it. The wheels of justice are in motion now.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): The president had this to say about these investigations. So now they go and morph into let inspect every deal he ever done We going to go and morph into let inspect every deal he ever done We going to go into his finances We going to check his deals We going to check These people are sick They're sick.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): I saw a little shifty Schiff yesterday. It's the first time. So if you are Adam Schiff, what questions are you going to be asking Weisselberg? What should they ask?
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Well, I think there's some broad silos for those, Sarah. I think that certainly the president's dealings with foreign entities that either purchased properties that he was in control over, involved with, or moved money through those properties to see if they were a conduit for dirty money.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And hence, were the Trumps in any fashion running a money laundering operation in their hotels or condominiums or golf courses? Did Trump as a business person and an individual make fair and honest representation to insurers and banks when he did business with them?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Those were issues that Michael Cohn raised last week.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: I know from my own reporting over the years that obviously he has a humongous issue with the banks because he routinely inflated how much money he had to banks and to the media for decades.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And Trump sues you at some point in all of this. Correct.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: I covered him for the New York Times on and off. And then out of that, I wrote a book about him in 2005 called Trump Nation. And in 2006, he sued me for libel.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): I think it's the largest libel lawsuit in U.S. history. He sued you. Wow. Congrats. Only journalists say congrats to that.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: What did he sue you over?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Well, he sued me for $6 billion, which was—and that's more than I got as an advance. And it was the difference, essentially, between what I said his net worth was and how much he said it was.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: He was telling me at the time that he was worth $6 billion. My sources had him in the low hundreds of millions.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): But because he sued me, I got access to his tax returns through my lawyers, all of his bank records and business records. And we litigated with Trump from 2006 till 2011.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: His case got dismissed in 2009. He appealed it, and he lost again on appeal in 2011.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): I think the first time I heard of Allen Weisselberg, it was this past summer when there was chatter that he might be cooperating with the U.S. Attorney's Office in Manhattan.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Federal prosecutors have granted immunity to the chief financial officer of the Trump organization in exchange for his testimony in Michael Cohen's case. And he reportedly gave them information about hush money payments made to two women during the 2016 presidential campaign.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And do we know if Weisselberg, is he also talking to Mueller as well?
--:-- Tim O'Brien: I don't know how the Mueller team could have avoided speaking to him if they're looking at the money question around quid pro quos between the Kremlin and the Trump campaign and then the Trump White House. But there's been no public record of it anywhere, not in any of the indictments that have come down thus far or the sentencing memos.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): So, so far, it looks like his work has been, Weisselberg's work has been confined to Manhattan. And I'm curious, when you think of like all these things that are going on, you have the legal investigations, the congressional probes of his finances. What feels more significant politically to you? Like, do you think some Weisselberg testimony could ultimately hurt President Trump?
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Well, I think the broader thing going on, Sarah, is that it's televised. because I think it makes it human and understandable and apprehensible for average Americans.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And I think that the Michael Cohn testimony brought the Trump saga into people's living rooms for the first time. And we're going to have Felix Sater and Allen Weisselberg next week.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: I don't think these will be the only installments of a reality television show that the president probably never wanted to be part of and now is.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): There's a lot of Americans who issues around national security and foreign policy fall by the wayside. Issues about money and malfeasance having to do with money often don't. And so there's a possibility that those kinds of issues may get greater traction in the American imagination.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): After the break, Tim tells us about the time that Allen Weisselberg lost a billion dollars.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Oh, and that one time he made a cameo on The Apprentice.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): I'm Sarah Cliff. This is Today Explained.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Sean, your mom says you're pretty good at dental hygiene.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think I've gotten better over the years.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): As an adult, I've been good. As a child, I was a mess. How were you when you were a kid? I mean, I knocked out my front two teeth when I was little.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My front teeth were gone, but now I have fake ones.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): I didn't know you had fake teeth.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I do. They look revelatory.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): They look pretty good, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They look great.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Product of the Canadian healthcare system, let me tell you.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Sarah, can the Quip electric toothbrush work for fake teeth, too?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hell yeah, it can.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): All right, good. You know, those sensitive sonic vibrations, they feel very nice on fake teeth, on real teeth.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you can obviously use the two-minute timer, which tells you when to switch sides.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): You can benefit from the lack of a clunky charger.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And if you go to getquip.com slash explained, do you know what you get there right now?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): What is it? Is it? A free refill.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It starts at $25. Free refill backed by 20 dental professionals G dot com slash explained.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Tim O'Brien, you've spent all this time with Allen Weisselberg when you were reporting on Trump Inc. What is the guy like?
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Well, my favorite anecdote is this was around April of 2005. and they were, after much delay, were going to roll out their final assessment for me of how much money the president had. And I went into the boardroom in the Trump organization and the table there was piled high with all of these old deal books, leather-bound deal books on different transactions, which weren't really very helpful at all for determining his net worth because net worth is how much your assets are worth minus how much debt you have against them.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And then Alan is standing there with a yellow legal pad. Okay. And I said, Alan, do you guys have any documentation?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): He goes, I'm just going to walk it through with you, Tim, by word of mouth.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And I said, okay. So we sit down and we just start ticking through every building that Trump owns. I take out my calculator and I add up all the numbers and the figure comes to $5 billion.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And I said, Alan, you know, this only adds up to $5 billion.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And he looks at me kind of quizzically and he goes, really?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And he said, I'm going to go back to my office and find that other billion.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Did he find the other billion?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Yeah, and he never returned.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And Allen Weisselberg is a very nice, unassuming bald guy with a handlebar mustache and glasses who grew up in Brooklyn and found himself in the Trump organization in the 1970s and never left.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: He's been there since the early 1970s.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): So, you know, how does a man spend almost 50 years in the employ of one company that has a take no prisoners and mind no independence kind of culture like the Trump organization?
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And I think you do that by subsuming your personality to someone else's and being a profound yes man.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And Allen Weisselberg is the most profound of yes men. He does what he's told. He never argues. He never criticizes. He's a loyalist.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And he's done well for himself.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Do you think it's accurate to say he's the single most important person in this Trump Inc. world?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): He's certainly first, I think, among equals because he knows where all the financial bodies are buried.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: He handled the president's tax returns. And I think the House is going to go to great lengths to try to get those.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And, you know, Weisselberg's testimony about the president's finances, his tax returns and his business dealings, all could open a Pandora's box of issues that the House could pursue to great effect.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: So here's this guy who spent nearly five decades working for the Trumps. Is being this profound yes-man the only key to a long career? Or is he also this guy who really admires Donald Trump?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Well, I think he's someone who's uniquely comfortable in turning over his identity and his independence to Donald Trump, which isn't the case for a lot of people who go through the Trump organization.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And because Donald Trump, first and foremost, is a performance artist and first and foremost thrives on being the center of attention, anytime anyone around him starts to become the center of attention themselves, the clock begins ticking on their longevity.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And in Allen Weisselberg's case, he's been a survivor of the Trump Organization for so long because he's been willing and wanting to stay out of the limelight. He's a numbers cruncher. He is the quintessential boring accountant.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: It's also worth remembering that it was Al Capone's accountant who finally put Al Capone in jail, not anything else that Al Capone was doing.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And it's often the money guys and the boring accountants who can cause the most trouble for their bosses because they know where the money is.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: You know, he appeared, I think, a couple of times on The Apprentice.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): At different times, Trump rolled everyone from his organization through that show for a little cameo appearance.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And it was one of the final board appearances where they had to decide who was fired.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And Donald looked over to get Allen's input.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: So it wasn't a huge star turn.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Should you have thought more along the lines of services? Washing or grooming or trimming or massaging?
--:-- Tim O'Brien: From what I'm told, they do, Donald. What kind of charity?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Only God knows. I mean, the best one ever is the Matt Calamari appearance on The Apprentice.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Matt Calamari is the chief operating officer of the Trump organization who had been Trump's bodyguard for quite a long time.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Trump hired him after seeing him beat the heck out of somebody one summer and decided, I want somebody like that working for me, although he's never had any business training.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And he appeared on The Apprentice once and got incredible stage fright.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Donald, you know I don't care for Jen very much. Got to be honest with you.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Because, wow. Because, well, I'm not doing too good, have you?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Matt is a very big guy. He's like 6'4", very well built.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): As long as we're on this, this is another thing. If someone at some point should do mashups of the Trump's business prowess on YouTube video mashups, there's a great one where Howard Stern interviews Ivanka, Don Jr., and the paterfamilias.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: I'm going to ask you a tough question. At one point asks them, What's 17 times 6?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): See, that's not a practical... 96? Wrong! 94? Wrong!
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And Don Jr. cannot do it in his head and starts stumbling, and Ivanka begins making fun of him laughing.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And then Howard Stern tells her, well then you do it smarty And she can Oh God You right And the father to rescue the two children jumps in and says the correct answer as he rocking back and forth on his haunches is It's 11. It's 11.12.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And Howard Stern begins swearing and says, What kind of new math is that? It's not 11.12? What are you talking about? Donald, you're wrong. Donald, you're wrong. Everybody was wrong. I'm right.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): But I've taken you far off track here. I'm sorry.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Have you tried calling up Alan Weisselberg to talk to him, you know, since this stuff has started unfolding?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): I have not, largely because I'm certain I'd be wasting my time.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: I have, you know, over the last few years called the Trump organization on a number of occasions to get comments on various things that I've been writing.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And they don't call me back. They don't email me. They just leave me alone, sad, left with my beer and my pen.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Left sitting in that conference room wondering where the billion dollars are.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Yes. Yeah. Stood up by the Trumps once again. Touche. Yes, exactly.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Do you think Allen Weisselberg's life as a private citizen is about to change?
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Those days are over.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: You know, investigations like this, when you look back at all of the sort of nondescript or side players in the Watergate saga who no one had heard of, who became household names when that rolled into TV and onto the front page of newspapers from John Dean.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): I began by telling the president that there was a cancer growing on the presidency. To Martha Mitchell. We're sick of the Watergate. Shut the mess up. So what? To John Mitchell, Gordon Liddy. I'm well, thank you. Virile, vigorous, potent, fecund, all of those good things.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: All of these people who, up until that point, most Americans hadn't heard of became household names because they had to give testimony on TV.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Mr. Butterfield, are you aware of the installation of any listening devices in the Oval Office of the President?
--:-- Tim O'Brien: I was aware of listening devices. Yes, sir.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And 14 million people watched Michael Cohn testify, which I think is extraordinary, given how long it was and how much minutiae was involved in the testimony.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: I think Alan Weisselberg is going to be a more recognized name than he probably ever wanted, at a minimum.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And is that something the president should be worried about? Are we at some kind of turning point for the Trump presidency?
--:-- Tim O'Brien: I think what's interesting about where we've arrived is the investigative pressure is high. The consequences for lying are high.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Years and years and years of the Trump Organization's business are now getting scrutinized.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And it raises the issue of whether or not it will end up being every man or woman for themselves or not.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And I don't think many people in the Trump Organization are willing to go to prison or face financial penalties or see their own reputations completely savaged in order to protect Donald Trump.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: But Weisselberg's the guy who's stuck there for five decades.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Is he the one who's willing to go down with the ship?
--:-- Tim O'Brien: I don't think Alan Weisselberg will go down with the ship.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): He understands that in the Trump organization, loyalty is a one-way street.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: Everybody knows that about Donald Trump, that you never get back from him what you give him.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And most of the time, for some of them, that probably doesn't matter.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: But most of the time was, I don't know what we call it, PM, pre-Mueller.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And most of that time was pre-U.S. attorney.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And most of it was pre-Adam Schiff and pre-Jerry Nadler and pre-Maxine Waters and pre-Elijah Cummings and pre-three different state attorney general investigations.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): There is an intense legal vice closing in around these folks.
--:-- Tim O'Brien: And I just don't understand why any of them would be willing to spend a significant portion of their time in prison if it comes to that in order to protect someone who might not have protected them under the same circumstances.
--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Tim O'Brien is executive editor of Bloomberg Opinion and the author of Trump Nation.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): This is Today Explained. I'm Sarah Cliff, filling in this week for Sean Ramos Firm, who will be back on Monday.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): I will be back to some of the other podcasts I host here at Vox, even though I've had so much fun on this one.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): You can find me over on The Weeds, where we talk about all sorts of policy issues.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): You can also find me on The Impact. It is our show devoted to how policy affects people.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Here at Today Explained, Irene Noguchi is our executive producer.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Bridget McCarthy is our editor.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Noam Hasenfeld and Luke Vanderplug produce.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And we had a bunch of help from Jillian Weinberger.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Afim Shapiro is our engineer and Siona Petras is our intern.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): And Breakmaster Cylinder makes music for us, but I didn't even get to meet him or her while I was guest hosting.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Today Explained is produced in association with Stitcher and we're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): If you like the show, rate and review us on iTunes. It would be a big help.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Now that it is time to head into the weekend, I figured you might want to do that with some facts about toothbrushes, like the Quip, which is a better electric toothbrush created by dentists and designers to make brushing your teeth simpler, more affordable, and even more enjoyable.
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--:-- Host (Sarah Cliff): Quip starts at $25 and if you go to getquip.com slash explained now, you get your first refill free. That's your first refill pack free at getquip.com slash explained.
