--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Noel King: And I'm Noel King.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today, we're talking about President Trump's breakup with the Federalist Society. But before we dive in, let's talk about the other breakup that's been making headlines.
--:-- Noel King: That's right. We'll get to that on tomorrow's show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But for now, let's focus on the Federalist Society. Breakup-wise, all the attention is on Donald and Elon. I mean, my mind is a storm. But it's not Trump's only breakup of note. There's also his breakup with the Federalist Society, or as it's known to its friends, FedSoc.
--:-- Noel King: We turn now to Truth Social. Truth Social. The U.S. Court of International Trade incredibly ruled against the United States of America on desperately needed tariffs.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I was new to Washington, and it was suggested that I use the Federalist Society as a recommending source on judges. I did so openly and freely, but then realized that they were under the thumb of a real sleazebag named Leonard Leo, a bad person who, in his own way, probably hates America and obviously has his own separate ambitions.
--:-- Noel King: If allowed to stand, this would completely destroy presidential power. The president of the United States must be allowed to protect America against those that are doing it economic and financial harm. Yikes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's on Today Explained. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
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--:-- Noel King: Mr. President, do you have any reaction to today's flame being named the best news show?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wow. I didn't know that. I just, you're telling me now for the first time.
--:-- Noel King: Let's just have you start by saying your name and how you'd like us to identify on the show.
--:-- David French: David French, New York Times columnist.
--:-- Noel King: Okay, David French, are you now or have you ever been a member of the Federalist Society?
--:-- David French: I am not now, but I have been a member of the Federalist Society. I was a member of the Federalist Society when I was, I believe, it was either all three years of law school or the first two years of law school, but it was also a very, very, very different time.
--:-- Noel King: I think the Federalist Society at the law school at that time, when we would have meetings, maybe 10 or 12 people would show up. Definitely things have changed.
--:-- David French: No question about that. I mean, and maybe one of the biggest changes or one of the most conspicuous changes is that FedSoc has become an enemy of the president of the United States.
--:-- Noel King: So if you're familiar with how the conservative legal movement has interacted with MAGA, you have seen this coming for a while. You knew this was coming really after 2020, because it's in 2020 after Trump had really stocked the federal judiciary with an awful lot of FedSoc judges and justices.
--:-- David French: Today, I am keeping another promise to the American people by nominating Judge Neil Gorsuch. Neil Gorsuch is a 49-year-old federal judge, member of the Federalist Society.
--:-- Noel King: And central to the president's selection of Judge Brett Kavanaugh last night was the Federalist Society.
--:-- David French: Is it your testimony that you don't know what the role of the Federalist Society was in your selection?
--:-- David French: My experience, of my personal experience and what I know, is that President Trump made the decision.
--:-- Noel King: So by the time the election challenge rolls around, he's got three members of the Supreme Court that he's nominated. Who were all members of FedSoc?
--:-- David French: I believe so. Probably all affiliated at some point. Been a part of FedSoc events. And then dozens of appellate judges, I think more than 100 district court judges. And none of them, zero of them, helped him try to steal the election.
--:-- Noel King: Out front tonight, the breaking news this hour. Supreme Court moments ago speaking and flat out rejecting President Trump's last-ditch effort to steal the election from Joe Biden. Tonight, the Supreme Court has just rejected Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton's lawsuit to overturn Joe Biden's victory.
--:-- David French: From that point forward, you began to see this drifting apart between sort of FedSoc and MAGA.
--:-- Noel King: And so then when Trump comes back into office and he doubles down on being Donald Trump, All of this became very, very predictable because if the Trump administration's argument dovetailed, say, with their originalist legal philosophy, they would rule for it. But if it was just simply Trump's lawless demands, they were going to reject it.
--:-- David French: And Trump is baffled by this distinction. I mean, he's baffled by it because the congressional Republicans haven't drawn this line at all. Not at all.
--:-- Noel King: When Trump's demands conflict with conservative principles, they will yield to Trump's demands every time.
--:-- David French: And the judges and justices have taken the opposite tack to such an extent that Republican-nominated judges have ruled against Trump about 72 percent of the time, which is remarkably close to about the 80 percent or so of the time that Democratic-appointed judges have ruled against Trump.
--:-- Noel King: But, you know, you mentioned a whole host of issues here where FedSoc judges have perhaps not given Trump what he wanted. Does the one that finally tips Trump off to start ranting, I guess maybe he's ranted before, but he really goes for it on Truth Social. Does the case study here sort of surprise you?
--:-- David French: No, it doesn't, because what really set him off was striking down tariffs. To the extent that Trump loves a policy, he loves tariffs.
--:-- Noel King: I always say tariffs is the most beautiful word to me in the dictionary.
--:-- David French: And when the Court of International Trade, and then followed up by other judges, struck it down, and it was pointed out to him that one of the judges on the Court of International Trade that struck down the tariffs was appointed by him.
--:-- Noel King: He had been ranting about judges in general. Now he got specific. He got specific with Leonard Leo. He got specific with the Fed Soc.
--:-- David French: But like I said people like me who had been watching this for a very long time were not wondering if this was going to happen We were just wondering when this was what was going to be the tipping point Was it going to be a Supreme Court case Was it going to be an appellate court?
--:-- Noel King: Turns out it was court of trade that brought us to this moment.
--:-- David French: So Trump gets mad at the judges of this court and also a guy named Leonard Leo, who we have spoken about on this program before.
--:-- Noel King: Leonard Leo did not author a decision from this court. Why is he mad at Leonard Leo?
--:-- David French: Well, Leonard Leo has long been sort of a key, not the only key, but a key figure in the Federalist Society. And was very much a part of the first Trump administration, working closely with the administration to put forward judges.
--:-- Noel King: You've been described by some as the most powerful recruiter in the world. the conservative pipeline to the Supreme Court, less kindly perhaps, but just as much emphasizing your influence, the judicial puppet master.
--:-- David French: I suspect the Federalist Society and lots of other groups and Americans will want to weigh in because the Supreme Court is such an important institution in our country. It is decisive on so many important issues.
--:-- Noel King: So we'll play some role, I'm sure, in helping to foster a robust discussion and conversation about the role of the court.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: David French, opinion columnist at the New York Times.
--:-- David French: Is that a lifetime appointment?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: No, no, it is not a lifetime appointment.
--:-- David French: All right, so Trump's wicked mad at the Federalist Society and Leonard Leo. but it may not matter because Leonard Leo is moving on.
--:-- Noel King: You might be surprised where to, though. We tell you when we back on Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Chime. Nobody likes fees and complicated banking, says Chime. And Chime gets that, says Chime.
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--:-- Noel King: Plus, they say you don't need to worry about monthly fees or maintenance fees. You can work on your financial goals through Chime today.
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--:-- Noel King: That's Chime.com slash explained. Chime feels like progress.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Upwork. If you run a business, you know that scaling your business requires the right expertise at the right time.
--:-- Noel King: I sometimes wonder how many of you are running businesses out there. I would love to know. Please email me, noelle at king.com.
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--:-- Noel King: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today, explain is back. I'm Sean Rameswaram from Frenchies Gone, but we've got friend of the show, Andy Kroll.
--:-- Andy Kroll: Andy's an investigative reporter for ProPublica, who also once helped make a podcast for them called We Don't Talk About Leonard.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was all about longtime FedSoc VP Leonard Leo. We asked him what Leo's been up to lately or what season two of his podcast would be about.
--:-- Andy Kroll: Season two is all about Leonard Leo taking all the lessons that he learned in the trenches of the American legal world and applying them to a whole bunch of other parts of American life, including Hollywood and the entertainment industry.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And now he's got more than a billion dollars to spend on trying to accomplish that mission. Where did he get the money?
--:-- Andy Kroll: This is an interesting story. Around 2020 and 2021, he is rolling off of his work advising then President Trump on who to put in the courts. And right around the time that he's wrapping up that work, he comes into possession of the entire fortune, $1.6 billion of, I kid you not, the power strip magnate of America.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh my God, that guy would have a lot of money. I assume guy, that person would have a lot of money. He's a guy. His name's Barry Side.
--:-- Andy Kroll: No one will have heard of him. And that is very much by design. He has, even more so than Leonard Leo, operated completely out of the public eye for the entire time that he has been a businessman, industrialist, whatever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When I think about him, I just, I can't not think of the Ferris Bueller scene where they talk about, you know, I'm Abe Froman, the sausage king of Chicago. That's right. I'm Abe Froman. The sausage king of Chicago.
--:-- Andy Kroll: Yeah, that's me. And Barry Side is actually in Chicago, so the Chicago connection's there. He's the power strip magnate of America.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you look under your desk and you see a power strip or any kind of electrical product that says trip light on it, two-piece, that is Barry Side.
--:-- Andy Kroll: And the fortune that he amassed selling power strips and all kinds of other electrical supplies and gadgets and stuff, that money got transferred to Leonard Leo about four or five years ago with essentially the mandate to go out and do whatever Leonard Leo wants to do with the money in service of this larger mission.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when Mr. Powerstrip gives you a billion dollars and says remake American culture where do you go first?
--:-- Andy Kroll: We see Leonard Leo trying to start entertainment projects trying to get movies and television shows off the ground are these the people behind passion of the Christ too what are they making they're making what they say is more sort of family friendly wholesome entertainment, but that still appeals to a broad enough swath of folks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So one of them is a show called House of David. It's a series, tells the biblical story of David. Can one stone change the course of history?
--:-- Andy Kroll: Cowards! Send me your channel! Goliath!
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The premiere for Amazon Prime's House of David series finally delivers on what I've wanted from biblical fiction on the screen for decades.
--:-- Andy Kroll: I Peter Franson from ChristianGeekCentral and Spirit Blade Productions House of David is a Leo entertainment play
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know I watched the trailer for it I've watched a little bit of the show itself. Can't say that it necessarily appeals to me. But it did hit the top of the Amazon Prime streaming list at one point earlier this year. So clearly it's finding an audience.
--:-- Andy Kroll: The question is, is it finding an audience outside of true believers? Is that the idea, though, to find an audience outside true believers, or is the idea to just appeal to the faithful?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, I think it's absolutely intended to appeal to folks beyond the faithful. Leo is too smart to think that you can have the kind of change that he wants preaching to the converted.
--:-- Andy Kroll: That doesn't get you really anywhere. You're just hardening the folks who already agree with you. And if you look at some of the projects that he's funding, you know, some of them House of David. It's a biblical story. Like, you kind of get where they're going with that. But then there's, you know, a remake of Dr. Doolittle.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He is enlisting people who worked on the Paw Patrol shows.
--:-- Andy Kroll: Yeah, there's a couple other interesting examples that have come out. One is a movie called Pinball And honestly, this is straight up my alley It's a story of a GQ writer in the 70s in New York City Who makes it his mission to convince the New York City Council That pinball is not a gambling game, not a game of chance but it's a game of skill.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This probably sounds weird, but I play pinball all the time. It helps me focus.
--:-- Andy Kroll: Are you a reporter? I just have a question about the pinball ban, sir. Somebody keep these damn kids away from me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Pinball was essentially treated like slot machines at that time in New York City. If you think about it for a sec, you realize, oh, maybe this is a story about big government and regulatory overreach, you know, stomping on a beloved pastime.
--:-- Andy Kroll: But honestly, I actually, you know, I found it kind of compelling.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there any way to know that, you know, what you're watching is, you know, brought to you by Leonard Leo? Or is part of the strategy to sort of, you know, blend into the wallpaper?
--:-- Andy Kroll: That's definitely his modus operandi. I think these movies, these television projects, the other things that he's working on, very much the goal is to try to say fund filmmakers or fund studios it's not going to be leonard leo productions brings you the animated version of dr dolittle that's just not plausible credible there's no way that would work but if you say it's through the motion picture institute or if you're funding a studio that has a whole bunch of different projects then I think you can accomplish both things.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, it's funny. We started the show talking about this Truth Social post from the president calling Leonard Leo a sleazebag. And yet you're talking about his plans in Hollywood. And the one thing it's reminding me of is like Donald Trump's ambitions to reshape Hollywood by, you know, negotiating where productions can be filmed abroad or at home or, you know, assigning Mel Gibson and John Voight and whomever else as, like, their Hollywood ambassadors in the White House.
--:-- Andy Kroll: It feels like they're trying to do the same thing, but, you know, using different means.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My fellow Americans and my peers of Hollywood, I recently met with our president, Donald J. Trump. I found out I was some kind of ambassador on a tweet. So I was surprised, but hey, I'm ready, willing, and able to be of service in any way I can.
--:-- Andy Kroll: The real connection between what Leo's trying to do and what Trump seems to be trying to do here is this recognition, and I think Andrew Breitbart put it best many years ago, the belief that politics is downstream from culture.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that you can win all the elections you want. You can change the Supreme Court. You can start and grow a whole political movement, if you will, talking about the MAGA movement. But if you don't have a cultural influence in the way that Netflix does or in the way that iconic filmmakers do or famous actors do, you're always losing the war, winning the battle maybe, but losing the war.
--:-- Andy Kroll: And I think Leo recognizes that. Trump, I think, probably wouldn't put it in such precise terms, but he's a guy who's been around actors in the entertainment industry for a really long time, long predating his political career. So surely he gets it too.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I don't know whether that will work. There's a long history of piecemeal efforts to try to make Hollywood more conservative that kind of seem to miss the way culture and art and entertainment work.
--:-- Andy Kroll: But again, Leo's got this fortune and he's got 40 years of hard-won lessons to bring to this. So it'll be really, really interesting to see what he actually invests in and what, if anything, come to that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Andy Kroll, friend of the show, propublica.org.
--:-- Noel King: Miles Bryan and Gabrielle Burbay made the show today. Congratulations are in order.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Jolie Myers edited. Victoria Chamberlain fact-checked with Laura Bullard, who's back.
--:-- Noel King: Patrick Boyd and Andrea Kristinsdottir never left.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On Tomorrow's Today Explained, we'll talk about that other breakup. Thank you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening to Today Explained. If you want to support the show, you can become a Vox Member at vox.com/members.
