--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: And I'm Gustavo Solis, the border reporter for KPBS.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Gustavo, what's been different about your border beat lately?
--:-- Gustavo Solis: The unique thing about what's going on at the border right now is that we are seeing a rising number of Ukrainian, Russian, and Eastern European migrants to a part of the border that's usually used to getting migrants from the Western Hemisphere.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When did that start happening?
--:-- Gustavo Solis: Russians have been coming in small numbers for a while, like really, really small numbers. But it's really escalated in like the last six months.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How much has it ticked up since this war began?
--:-- Gustavo Solis: Anecdotally, it has gone up. I've seen it on the ground. I think Mexico reported something like 30,000 Russian nationals in January and February alone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it's becoming a more established migration route now. And we assume the ones going to Mexico are trying to get to the United States?
--:-- Gustavo Solis: Oh, definitely. I would say 99.9% are using Mexico as a way through.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why do Russians and Ukrainians try to enter through Mexico?
--:-- Gustavo Solis: It's right now very difficult to get a visa, a travel visa, to the U.S. So it's a lot easier to just fly to Mexico, buy a car, rent a car, drive to the border, and then cross that way.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's a lot easier to have access to the asylum process once you're already in the U.S.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: Yeah, that's right.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And here in San Ysidro, the port of entry is in U.S. territory.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: So you're technically already in the U.S. before you have your passport checked and you go through customs.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's actually a physical yellow line that marks the border boundary.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: And what was happening a lot more last year than this year because CBP has caught on, Russian nationals would drive from Mexico to the U.S. and they were kind of hard to spot at first just because migration from that part of the world isn't very common here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And just to be frank, they're white.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: So CBP doesn't really like, or at least back then, they wouldn't really stop too much to look at them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They buy used cars, but they're not total junkers. They're nice looking cars.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: So on the face, it's like, oh, it's another family from San Diego who went down for the weekend to Mexico.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they would wave through that yellow line, but not through the actual port of entry, right?
--:-- Gustavo Solis: So it's kind of like you get through the first part, you wouldn't get through because obviously they didn't have passports or visas to come into the country, but they were technically already in, so they would have access to a little bit more safety measures than they otherwise would.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now what has happened, the car situation isn't really working out as much.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: So you're saying for these Russians, at least in recent memory, it's easier to drive through the southern border of the United States because you might get mistaken for an American and just sort of get waved past.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Whereas if you're proud at driving through that southern border, you're more likely to get stopped.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: That's basically it, yeah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: CBP officers are standing a little bit before that yellow line and kind of checking to see if you have a passport.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: They're not making you open it and look at it. They just kind of non-verbally give you a little like, Hey, do you have your ID with you?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you show them through the windshield and then they wave you through
--:-- Gustavo Solis: But there been a couple of episodes of there was one last year of Russian nationals in a car just flooring it and kind of try trying to drive through the port of entry by force
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it got kind of nasty at one point
--:-- Gustavo Solis: So for those who make it through the border successfully, what happens to them once they get in?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It would be the normal asylum process, right? You tell a border official that you're afraid to go back to your country.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: You have a credible fear interview where you kind of establish why you're fleeing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For the Russian nationals, A lot of it is political persecution because they're pro-democracy activists.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: A lot of it is religious or anti-LGBTQ treatment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So they kind of they establish that fear and then they get a case for immigration court and they go through the asylum process.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: So is this like what we hear with Central American migrants where they're given humanitarian parole?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I would say the Russians are getting more similar treatment to what the Central Americans are getting in terms of how they go through the asylum process.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: What we're seeing more recently after the war started was Ukrainians are getting kind of fast track to humanitarian parole at the moment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How does the experience between, say, Ukrainian crossing the southern border of the United States differ from a Central American migrant?
--:-- Gustavo Solis: Right now, it's night and day.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, just the fact that Ukrainians can cross and Central Americans, Mexicans, Haitians, basically anyone else can't cross right now.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: Even simultaneously, I mean, just a couple of days ago, I was at the port of entry.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They had the advocacy groups had this big two year anniversary of Title 42.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: And Title 42 and Title 42. Title 42 was first implemented by the Trump administration in March 2020.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It allows officials to use the pandemic as a justification for turning away asylum seekers at the southern border.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: And they got a transgender woman from Mexico, a Honduran mother with an epileptic son to try to go request asylum in the U.S.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They were like surrounded by cameras.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: They had two lawyers with them saying, hey, they're afraid to stay here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're victims of crime in Mexico and they're running from their city of origin.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: They need protection. They got turned away because of Title 42.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But while that conversation was happening simultaneously, three Ukrainian nationals came to the border.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: They waited maybe 10 seconds and then got waved through.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it's very impossible to ignore the optics of black and brown migrants are getting turned away while the white migrants are getting in.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: Today, the U.S. government continues to unlawfully expel individuals and families with absolutely no due process.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And to be clear, I don't want it to seem like people are pissed off that the Ukrainians are getting in.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: No, people are stoked and happy that these people who are fleeing a horrible situation in their country are getting access to the due process of asylum.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're just upset that everyone else isn't getting that same treatment.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: How are agents at the border justifying turning around Central Americans, Haitians, but waving the Ukrainians in to get asylum?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, I mean, they don't really say much when I ask them.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: I mean, it really comes down to Title 42.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It gives border officials absolute discretion over which asylum seekers can get through.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: It gives them the authority to turn everyone away, but also the discretion to exempt people on a case-by-case basis.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So Border Patrol is a law enforcement agency, right?
--:-- Gustavo Solis: So it'd be like giving cops the authority to say who can and cannot file domestic violence charges.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's just kind of bonkers in terms of how we normally think of our criminal justice system.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: And who's given these cops the order?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's a CDC order technically, but they were pressured by the White House.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: So I've asked the CDC a couple times now, hey, could you justify this?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like, why is this still in effect after most of the COVID restrictions are lifted?
--:-- Gustavo Solis: Why are there no carve outs, like maybe let in vaccinated asylum seekers?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Kind of basic questions you want to ask if this is really about public health.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: Yeah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Their answer is that I should ask the White House.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: When I asked the White House, their answer is that it's a CDC order and I should ask the CDC.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I would certainly point you to the CDC.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: They, of course, make the decisions and recommendations about maintaining Title 42 and keeping it in place.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's rooted in preventing the introduction of contagious diseases into the interior of the United States.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: But they have not made a decision to lift Title 42.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wow. No one's really taken ownership of this.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: The most public kind of guidance, if you can call it that, about how CBP's discretion is used came recently from the memo that said Ukrainian nationals should be exempted from Title 42 right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What the memo doesn't say is that that exception could be applied to any asylum seeker, including those for two years they've been blocked out from this asylum process.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: Maybe Ukrainians can't get COVID-19. Maybe, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: But if we're afraid of the pandemic, like just Title 42 doesn't make any sense.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like I could cross right now and I'd have to show my passport, but I don't have to show proof of vaccination.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: But these asylum seekers, a lot of them who are vaccinated, no, they can't come because of the pandemic.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know, as a reporter, like, right, you want to be neutral.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: You want to be objective.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I don't know how you can look at Title 42 from an objective or neutral standpoint and call it justified.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: And meanwhile, what's going on at the border?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, a couple of things.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: The fact that people are getting turned away at the ports of entry is causing them to try to cross between the ports of entry, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because as I said, if you're in the U.S., if you're physically in the U.S., you have greater access to some of the safety measures that asylum provide you.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: So people who have tried to enter the country like 40, 50 times through the port of entry, they're getting desperate, they're running out of money, they're looking into like hiring coyotes and paying thousands of to go over the mountains or through the desert.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There been reports of people drowning trying to swim across the ocean as well
--:-- Gustavo Solis: It is pushing illegal migrations more Title 42
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Also there is one carve to Title 42 which is that unaccompanied children are exempt
--:-- Gustavo Solis: So if unaccompanied minors from whatever country, they're more often than not getting in.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In practice, what that means is that families are self-separating at the border.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: So if you have a mother with a couple of teenagers, she has to make the really difficult choice of sending them and her staying in Mexico so that at least they have a chance for protection.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Going back to 2020, after Joe Biden got elected, right, he campaigned on restoring the asylum process, having a more humane approach to immigration.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: Migrants heard that, and they just kind of sat and waited and said, well, Joe Biden's going to be nicer than Donald Trump.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're still waiting today for that to happen.
--:-- Gustavo Solis: What's President Biden gonna do in a minute on Today Explained?
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--:-- [Theme music starts]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: All right. Today Explained, we're back.
--:-- [Discussion continues]
--:-- Steph Kite: The policy decision has been made that the war in Ukraine and the displacement of those people is more urgent to the United States than the displacement of millions of people due to earthquakes, hurricanes, and political strife in this hemisphere?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think that's a little bit putting words in my mouth.
--:-- Steph Kite: That's how we interpret it, though.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's a little bit putting words in my mouth.
--:-- Steph Kite: All I'm saying is that we have put forward a process to bring 100,000 Ukrainian refugees into the country, given the incredible duress.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: To further understand the politics of this double standard, we reached out to Steph Kite.
--:-- Steph Kite: She covers immigration policy for Axios.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We started with what happens to all the people turned away by Title 42.
--:-- Steph Kite: Well, under Title 42, a few different things can happen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Some are being returned to Mexico, just being kicked right back across the border and being told to go to various shelters that are set up in Mexico along the border.
--:-- Steph Kite: And others are being returned to their home countries.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Nearly 4,000 Haitian migrants have been expelled from the U.S. in the last nine days.
--:-- Steph Kite: The numbers are part of the Department of Homeland Security's latest deportation blitz.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The department is working to remove as many as 30,000 migrants, many of whom are from Haiti.
--:-- Steph Kite: The deportees were forced to leave the United States without ever having the chance to seek asylum.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this is the administration sort of enforcing and relying on a policy that came out of the Trump administration during the pandemic.
--:-- Steph Kite: Is that right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Exactly.
--:-- Steph Kite: In the beginning, this was always tied to COVID.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But of course, critics of this policy have raised the question of whether this really is about public health or being used more as an immigration policy.
--:-- Steph Kite: Right. I mean, their mask mandates are ending across the country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Regulations are ending across the country.
--:-- Steph Kite: And yet this Title 42 thing seems to be alive and well.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Exactly.
--:-- Steph Kite: The Biden administration continues to use it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's been used more than a million times by border officials under the Biden administration.
--:-- Steph Kite: But we are certainly keeping an eye on whether the CDC will ultimately lift this policy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's something that they reassess every 60 days.
--:-- Steph Kite: And the next deadline for that is in early April.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So there are lots of conversations internally in the administration and among immigration experts and reporters really watching to see whether we see this extended for another 60 days or ended in early April.
--:-- Steph Kite: And how many people are waiting in the wings in the meantime to try and get to the United States southern border or even get in?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Axios actually recently reported that DHS intelligence is looking at about 25,000 migrants who are already waiting in Mexican shelters just south of the border, waiting for Title 42 to end.
--:-- Steph Kite: They're believed to be ready to cross the border pretty much as soon as that policy is ended.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there could be 170,000 migrants total at various places throughout the region who are readying to try to cross the border once that policy is lifted.
--:-- Steph Kite: And do we get a sense what the administration wants to do once they potentially do lift Title 42?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do they want to let tens of thousands of migrants in?
--:-- Steph Kite: Do they want to figure out a different way to keep them out?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do we have any idea?
--:-- Steph Kite: Well the sense we have so far again according to some recent reporting by Axios is that they are certainly preparing for very large numbers at the border.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And most of that preparation is kind of collecting different things that they've done in the past.
--:-- Steph Kite: So this is, again, not the first time we've seen a surge at the U.S.-Mexico border.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This latest caravan passing through Mexico, now numbering in the thousands.
--:-- Steph Kite: We saw one in 2014 with mostly migrant kids and families.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They came without their parents, traveling into Guatemala, then Mexico, crossing the Rio Grande and just now arriving in Texas.
--:-- Steph Kite: We saw one again in 2019 under President Trump and we saw one last year under President Biden.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're overcrowded.
--:-- Steph Kite: We don't have anywhere to put people, but we have them in our custody and the system has bogged down and there's no place for us to send them because the next level is not open yet.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They've had opportunities to kind of look at ways to manage these high numbers.
--:-- Steph Kite: So the administration is certainly looking at, you know, using not only resources within the Department of Homeland Security, but also resources in other agencies that they can bring in and help control the numbers, make sure that they can provide humane care for migrants.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We'll have to see kind of what direction they go as those numbers tick up.
--:-- Steph Kite: Has the Ukrainian crisis and the fact that there are now Ukrainians and more Russians at the southern border changed the calculus here for the administration or changed the sort of optics of what's going on at the southern border?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, we have seen the administration respond to concerns about Ukrainians by, first of all, reportedly stopping deportations to Ukraine and surrounding countries.
--:-- Steph Kite: And they've also directed border officials to consider not putting Ukrainians in Title 42, to allow Ukrainians to apply for asylum in the U.S. through the normal process, using some exemptions that are worked into Title 42.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There is a little bit of leeway for border officials to decide, you know, this person probably should come through the normal process and not be expelled under Title 42.
--:-- Steph Kite: They'll go through the normal process through USAIS and immigration judges who will look at their claims and decide whether they do prove that they would face persecution in their home country if deported there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, you know, that can be a pretty long process, though.
--:-- Steph Kite: And they'll be kind of in that backlog that has been forming over the years with so many people claiming asylum, especially those at the border.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I just wonder, what is your sense here?
--:-- Steph Kite: I mean, obviously, the Trump administration's policies at the southern border of the United States were wildly controversial, though it's probably worth noting that a lot of people approved of those policies.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Biden's coming in, pledging to be a more compassionate president, more friendly to those people who are trying to get in through the southern border of the United States.
--:-- Steph Kite: But so far, he's sort of been maintaining these Trump policies, but now making this awkward exception for Ukrainian immigrants, though we're still dealing with the pandemic.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you get the sense that the Biden administration has been a little more capable or purposeful in how it deals with the southern border?
--:-- Steph Kite: You know, that's a really difficult question.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There has certainly been a lot of criticism for the Biden administration on how they've handled immigration, particularly at the border.
--:-- Steph Kite: And that has come, honestly, from both sides of the aisle.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We've seen Republicans accuse, you know, Biden of being too lenient, of being too welcoming, of allowing open borders.
--:-- Steph Kite: He does not care about Americans. He cares more about people who are not from this country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I need the Biden administration to step up and start providing the safety and security that Texans and Americans deserve.
--:-- Steph Kite: They point to reports of overwhelmed border officials releasing migrants into the country as an example of there being no order at the border.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But at the same time, more progressives and Democrats have very harshly criticized the administration, especially for its use of Title 42.
--:-- Steph Kite: I mean, the reality is they use it as an excuse to keep people out.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's always the case.
--:-- Steph Kite: It has never been about public health.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They think it's inhumane to be turning back migrants and not allowing them to claim asylum.
--:-- Steph Kite: They point to the fact that a lot of these people are very desperate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're leaving desperate situations and that they can face harm when they're returned to Mexico or other countries.
--:-- Steph Kite: So it has certainly been a mixed bag when it comes to the Biden administration's handling of immigration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it's hard to really provide a clear answer on what their goal really is at the border.
--:-- Steph Kite: Do you get the sense covering this story that you're just kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like no one has the answers that satisfy a broad swath of Americans about the southern border?
--:-- Steph Kite: Politically, absolutely.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, when it comes to immigration, it really is an issue that has become increasingly polarizing over the past few years, both before President Trump and, of course, during his presidency.
--:-- Steph Kite: And we've seen both the right really attach onto this issue as something that they love to criticize Democrats over, criticize President Biden over.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we are seeing, you know, progressives continuing to push the administration to do more, to do more, to do more.
--:-- Steph Kite: And nothing ever really seems to be enough.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it's certainly something that we see a lot of criticism over.
--:-- Steph Kite: And it's hard to see how to really navigate this issue politically.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Steph Kite. You can find her work over at Axios.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Before her, you heard from Gustavo Solis.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He covers the border for KPBS in San Diego.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Find and support them at kpbs.org.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our program today was produced by Halima Shah and Hady Mawajdeh.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was engineered by Paul Mounsey.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was fact-checked by Laura Bullard.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was edited by Matthew Collette and me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It is Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you.
