--:-- Sean Rameswaram: All right, it's officially been a month now, and to his credit, President Trump waited almost an entire month before doing a 180 on U.S.-Russia relations.
--:-- Noel King: Trump had a nice long phone call with Vladimir Putin about a week ago. Ukraine was not invited.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My call was perfect. And then on Tuesday, Trump blamed Ukraine for being invaded by Russia.
--:-- Noel King: And then, to top it off, on Truth Social yesterday, he called Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky a dictator without elections.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Shortly thereafter, on that same website, Trump called himself a king. Totally cool. Normal stuff.
--:-- Noel King: But you might be old enough to remember the United States being on Ukraine's side of this war.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On Today Explained, we're getting used to this new normal, being BFFs with Russia.
--:-- Noel King: And we're going to start with the person Trump has put in charge of U.S. intelligence. A Russia sympathizer with no intelligence experience to speak of named Tulsi Gabbard.
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--:-- Noel King: Let me tell you a true story. Last weekend, I got an email from a listener who wanted to discuss their problems with me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I said, look, I don't think that this is about me personally. At least I hope it's not.
--:-- Noel King: Why don't you try BetterHelp? BetterHelp.com slash explained. Absolute truth.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise.
--:-- Noel King: Find the one with BetterHelp. The one is not me, guys.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash explained. That's BetterHelp.com slash explained.
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--:-- Noel King: Why shop at Burlington? Maybe it's the deals that are new each time you drop by.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Maybe it's the brand names you'll be shocked Burlington has in store.
--:-- Noel King: Or maybe it's the quality of the items, the amazing selection, and the newest trends.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you like to save, but also like to stay in style, Burlington is your answer.
--:-- Noel King: And the question you'll be asking yourself is, why go anywhere else? Burlington. Deals. Brands. Wow.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Сегодня и что оно означает. This is Today Explained.
--:-- [Support for Today Explained from Chime]
--:-- Noel King: Vladimir Putin got his start as a spy. And now our top spy in the United States has a soft spot for Vladimir Putin.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In fact, some people sincerely believe she's a straight up Russian operative. That is a charge that's been leveled against her.
--:-- Noel King: She's a favorite of the Russians. She once sued Hillary Clinton for $50 million for saying something along those lines.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I will not stand quietly by as Hillary Clinton or anyone else tries to smear my character.
--:-- Noel King: I think that goes too far, but she has expressed sympathy for Putin's dilemma.
--:-- Steve Kahl: You hear President Biden say, well, this is Putin's war. This is Putin's fault. It's Putin who's the one who's solely responsible.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, the United States and some of these European NATO countries are fueling this war.
--:-- Steve Kahl: And for dictators like Bashar al-Assad, the former dictator of Syria.
--:-- Noel King: Do you think Assad is our enemy? Assad is not the enemy of the United States because Syria does not pose a direct threat to the United States.
--:-- Steve Kahl: She has called for a pardon for Edward Snowden, the whistleblower who exposed illegal surveillance of Americans.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You've celebrated Snowden as, quote, brave whistleblower.
--:-- Steve Kahl: So she sounds more like a progressive politician sometimes than a establishment spy chief.
--:-- Noel King: And I think she would say that's kind of the point. We need a different perspective on top of the American intelligence system.
--:-- Steve Kahl: Steve Kahl is a senior editor at what I'm told is a leading magazine, The Economist.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he's here to help you understand who's just been put in charge of U.S. intelligence and how that might shift the course of U.S. foreign policy.
--:-- Steve Kahl: Well, she grew up in Hawaii in somewhat unusual circumstances.
--:-- Noel King: Her parents were members of a religious community called the Science of Identity Foundation, which was derived from the Hare Krishna branch of sort of meditation and yoga teaching.
--:-- Steve Kahl: And the community that her parents belonged to and that she had considerable exposure to as a child was led by a charismatic guru named Chris Butler, who was a former surfer and college dropout who had lived on the streets as a Hare Krishna follower, but then started his own community.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So one of Chris Butler's most adamant views, at least in the 80s and 90s, was an opposition to homosexuality, which he regarded as an abomination, but also to the establishment of rights for gay and lesbian couples.
--:-- Steve Kahl: And as a teenager, Tulsi Gabbard found herself on the streets of Honolulu protesting alongside her parents against the establishment of gay marriage rights in Hawaii.
--:-- Noel King: Don't open the door to weird marriages. Don't let homosexuals force their values on the people of Hawaii. Vote yes on the marriage amendment.
--:-- Steve Kahl: And it was in that time when she was very young, I think just 20 or 21 years old, that she and her father simultaneously ran for public office in Hawaii.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She was elected to the state legislature and her father was elected as a city councilman initially.
--:-- Steve Kahl: So she was she was in politics, but she decided after 9-11 that she wanted to join the military.
--:-- Noel King: I enlisted in the Army because of the horrific terrorist attack on September 11th and volunteered to deploy to Iraq in 2005, where I served in a medical unit.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And she has described this experience of war as transformational in her outlook on the American government, on American power.
--:-- Steve Kahl: I mean, it was something every day that we all experienced firsthand, the terribly high human cost of war.
--:-- Noel King: We have to honor our servicemen and women by only sending them on missions that are worthy of their sacrifice.
--:-- Steve Kahl: She did eventually come back to politics after establishing her military career as a part-time reservist.
--:-- Noel King: And she found an opening first on the Honolulu City Council and then in 2012, a seat in Congress, one of the four that Hawaii has opened up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Tulsi Gabbard. I approve this message. I work to end tax loopholes end the war in Afghanistan now protect Medicare and Social Security and work for
--:-- Steve Kahl: She arrived in Washington and Nancy Pelosi took her under her wing.
--:-- Noel King: She was seen as maybe the next Obama, another Hawaiian politician, a woman of color, military career, what's not to like, good speaker, telegenic.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Come on, man.
--:-- Steve Kahl: And then very quickly, as these things go in Washington,
--:-- Noel King: Partly, she didn't play the game.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And she started to pick fights with the leaders of her party, including Barack Obama, who she called out for not being sufficiently tough on Islamic terrorism.
--:-- Noel King: Our administration refuses to recognize who our enemy is.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And unless and until that happens, then it's impossible to come up with a strategy to defeat that enemy.
--:-- Noel King: We have to recognize that this is about radical Islam.
--:-- Steve Kahl: So by the time the 2016 presidential cycle arrived, she was starting to drift away from the party that had embraced her.
--:-- Noel King: What you can see by 2016 is the beginnings of what some people have called the horseshoe shape of American political populism, where the farther you go to the left, the closer you get to the MAGA right.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: By 2019, she's still a Democrat, and she can be critical of Donald Trump in public.
--:-- Steve Kahl: What is happening right now is a very clear consequence of having a commander-in-chief who doesn't know what he's doing.
--:-- Noel King: She was already part of the MAGA conversation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She knew Tucker Carlson went on his show on Fox News and she won praise from some ardent Trump supporters in the manosphere and podcasting landscape and so forth.
--:-- Noel King: And so she, in 2022, she left the party to become an independent.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I can no longer remain in today's Democratic Party.
--:-- Noel King: It's now under the complete control of an elitist cabal of warmongers driven by cowardly wokeness.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And in 2024, she campaigned with Donald Trump, but then she endorsed him.
--:-- Noel King: I invite you to join me in doing all that we can to save our country and elect President Donald J. Trump and send him back to the White House.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then finally, toward the end of the campaign, she announced that she was becoming a Republican.
--:-- Noel King: I'm proud to stand here with you today, President Trump, and announce that I'm joining the Republican Party.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Good for her.
--:-- Steve Kahl: How does she go from becoming a Republican to becoming one of the most important players in our intelligence community, if not the most important player?
--:-- Noel King: Well, you know, it really is a puzzle because Donald Trump could have nominated her to be Secretary of Veterans Affairs or something.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And everyone would have said, oh, what an innovative choice.
--:-- Noel King: And she would have gotten confirmed with no difficulty.
--:-- Steve Kahl: Instead, he named her the top spy of the U.S. system.
--:-- Noel King: Now, she has no experience of these bureaucracies.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She has not been an intelligence analyst or a synthesizer of complicated information.
--:-- Steve Kahl: Indeed, a lot of her takes over the years on the foreign policy questions that she was most interested in were a bit garbled or a bit puzzling in different ways.
--:-- Noel King: She sometimes aligned herself with misinformation and propaganda that was coming out of Russia or Syria's dictatorship.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She seemed kind of an uncritical thinker.
--:-- Steve Kahl: She clearly had strong policy views, but she would select facts as if she was just cruising the Internet and making her arguments out of what she found.
--:-- Noel King: And so it left me initially, as I was working on her biography, kind of puzzled, like, why this job?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the answer reveals itself in her own speaking and writing and her own convictions.
--:-- Steve Kahl: And she brought some of this even to her confirmation hearing.
--:-- Noel King: Chuck Schumer admitted a few years ago, quote, you take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so this is, in fact, why Donald Trump, I think, is attracted to her leadership and why she's aligned with Donald Trump's agenda in the intelligence community,
--:-- Noel King: Which is that her first job includes carrying out two executive orders that the president signed fairly early on that basically designate the director of national intelligence for a period of a couple or three months.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: To conduct a review of people who are disloyal and to take disciplinary action against them, people who had, quote unquote, weaponized intelligence in the previous administration or who were otherwise unreliable politically.
--:-- Noel King: And so she's going to lead that review.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what you can say is that she's motivated to do it.
--:-- Noel King: She thinks there is a really deep-seated problem in the intelligence communities that she will now have the power to do something about.
--:-- Steve Kahl: So those are her first tasks from her boss.
--:-- Noel King: But obviously, a big part of her job will be countering U.S. adversaries.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: China comes to mind.
--:-- Noel King: Russia historically would have come to mind.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But what does putting Tulsi Gabbard in charge of our national intelligence say about where we're heading with Russia and about what Trump wants to accomplish with Russia?
--:-- Steve Kahl: Well, she never appeared to regard Vladimir Putin as an enemy of the United States.
--:-- Noel King: She tended to express herself indirectly about this by criticizing the democratic elites for demonizing Putin.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And she would mock them for calling him the new Hitler.
--:-- Noel King: And she blamed NATO for provoking Putin.
--:-- Steve Kahl: So in that sense, she was aligned with President Trump's assessments of Putin as someone he could do business with, as someone he should try to do business with.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, perhaps there are people around President Trump who see grand strategy in this.
--:-- Noel King: They might say that U.S. policy has driven Russia and China closely together, complicating America's great power position, and that the U.S. has to pull one of those two away, and Russia is the better choice.
--:-- Steve Kahl: That seems to be the hypothesis that has brought hawks and non together in this early period of the Trump administration
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But for Tulsi Gabbard I don hear anything on the chessboard like that.
--:-- Noel King: I think she just has an instinct that the elites have gotten it all wrong and that Vladimir Putin has been unfairly maligned.
--:-- Steve Kahl: Steve Call, Economist.com. Whatever you want, Vladimir, ahead on Today Explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Chime gets that, says Chime.
--:-- Noel King: Chime is a financial technology company that says they understand that every dollar counts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when you set up direct deposit through Chime, they say you get access to fee-free features such as free overdraft coverage,
--:-- Noel King: Getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit, so much more.
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--:-- Noel King: Plus, they say you don't need to worry about monthly fees or maintenance fees.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can work on your financial goals through Chime today.
--:-- Noel King: You can open an account in two minutes at Chime.com slash explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's Chime.com slash explained.
--:-- [Support for Today Explained from Mint]
--:-- Noel King: Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should.
--:-- Noel King: One, it's $15 a month.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Two, seriously, it's $15 a month.
--:-- Noel King: Three, no big contracts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Four, I use it.
--:-- Noel King: Five, my mom uses it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right?
--:-- Noel King: Okay. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, $15 per month equivalent required.
--:-- Noel King: New customer offer first three months only. Then full price plan options available.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.
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--:-- Noel King: If you run a business, you know that scaling your business requires the right expertise at the right time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I sometimes wonder how many of you are running businesses out there.
--:-- Noel King: I would love to know. Please email me, noelle at king dot com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: With Upwork, you can find specialized freelancers in IT, web development, AI, design, admin support, marketing, and more.
--:-- Noel King: Experts who they say are ready to help you take your business to the next level.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: With more than two decades of experience, Upwork has a simple and ambitious goal to pioneer a better way of working.
--:-- Noel King: Companies at every stage turn to Upwork to get things done and find more flexibility in the way they staff key projects and initiatives by accessing a global marketplace filled with top talent.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Plus, Upwork makes posting your job easy with no cost to join.
--:-- Noel King: You can register, browse, freelance, or profiles, get help drafting a job post, or even book a consultation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free.
--:-- Noel King: That is Upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talents ready to help your business grow.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com, Upwork.com.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: I still haven't understood how can someone so beautiful be an Iraq war veteran.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ladies and gentlemen, presenting a video address by Ms. Sean Ramos from Today Explained.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: Here now with Matthew Luxmore. He covers the war in Ukraine for The Wall Street Journal, a war whose end the United States wants to accelerate with Russia the victor.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: It all started around a week ago last Wednesday when, firstly, Trump's new Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announced, quite surprisingly, that NATO membership for Ukraine is off the table.
--:-- Noel King: The United States does not believe that NATO membership for Ukraine is a realistic outcome of a negotiated settlement.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: He later walked back some of those comments, but it's been quite a clear line for the Trump administration ever since.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then the same day, Trump announced that he had had a phone call with Russia's president, Vladimir Putin.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: We had a great call and it lasted for a long time, over an hour.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Essentially bringing the Kremlin leader in from the cold after three years of isolation by Biden's administration.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: And then in a press conference, you know, batting away criticism from reporters, he said that the only way to fix this is to start with talks directly with Russia.
--:-- Noel King: We ultimately expect to meet.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In fact, we expect that he'll come here and I'll go there.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: And he announced that a meeting would take place in Saudi Arabia between the US side and the Russian side,
--:-- Noel King: Which, of course, left the Europeans and the Ukrainians, most importantly, scrambling for a response since they had thought all along that they would be key players in any negotiation over the end of this war.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: What sense do we have of what exactly the peace deal might be, the one that the Trump administration is shopping around for?
--:-- Noel King: Well, it's very unclear at this stage.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: Of course, we had this meeting between the US and the Russian side in Saudi Arabia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Trump has all along said that the war must be ended, that, you know, Ukraine is a huge killing field, many lives being lost, which is all correct.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: But he's driving towards a peace without really explaining how this peace would be negotiated.
--:-- Noel King: The main problem is that Russia's position and Ukraine's position completely don't overlap.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: Ukraine, until recently, was saying that it's going to regain at least a large part of the land that it lost.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Russia was saying that it's going to keep all the territory that it's taken, and it's been calling for a complete disarmament of Ukraine and a kind of neutered, neutral version of Ukraine that is not allowed to participate in any international military coalitions and would certainly not be a member of NATO,
--:-- Noel King: Which is a key aspiration for Ukraine written into its constitution.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: So Trump, of course, is talking a good game about fixing this war.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's met with the Russian side. Ukraine says there's going to be no deal that it accepts unless it's involved directly in negotiations.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: So I think we're very short on the specifics at the moment.
--:-- Noel King: All we know at this stage is that talks have begun and presumably Ukraine will be involved in those talks soon when all sides come to the table.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: But it's very unclear whether the Europeans will be.
--:-- Noel King: And that too is contentious.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: Yes Trump members of his team have suggested that the Europeans will not be at the table
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I said I a school of realism I think that not going to happen
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: Even though of course it the continent that sits closest to Ukraine that will be directly impacted by whatever peace deal is made of Ukraine
--:-- Noel King: But they cannot agree on the specifics of what their version of a peace deal would be.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: France is not preparing to send ground troops as belligerents in a conflict to the front line.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I'm prepared to consider committing British forces on the ground alongside others if there is a lasting peace agreement.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: It is completely premature and completely the wrong time to have this discussion now.
--:-- Noel King: I'm even a little irritated by these debates, I have to say.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: This is highly inappropriate, to put it bluntly and honestly.
--:-- Noel King: And this is one of the things that Trump's team has expressed very publicly that Europe is divided and there is no cohesive narrative in Europe about how to end this war.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: A lot of people are upset right now because it seems like the United States is taking a rather sympathetic view towards Russia's side of this war, towards Russia's arguments around this war.
--:-- Noel King: Do we have any idea why that is?
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: Well, yeah, of course, here in Europe, in Ukraine as well, people have been quite shocked by statements made by Trump on Tuesday suggesting that Ukraine had started the war.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But today I heard, oh, we weren't invited.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: Well, you've been there for three years. You should have ended it three years.
--:-- Noel King: You should have never started it. You could have made a deal.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: Which, of course, is not the case.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Three years ago, Russia sent hundreds of thousands of troops over the border into Ukraine and tanks and armored vehicles and planes in a full-scale invasion of the country.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: So this is obviously ruffled feathers in Ukraine.
--:-- Noel King: And there is very broadly a sense that the Trump administration, if it doesn't outright favor the Russian narrative on things, it seems at least to be sympathetic to it in a way that was almost impossible to expect from a U.S. government a year ago when Biden was in power.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: Right. I mean, I think the new director of national intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, has said that Ukraine and NATO provoked Putin into starting this war.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Donald Trump has said similar things.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: Is the general vibe that the United States is sending to Europe, to Ukraine, to Russia, that Ukraine bears some responsibility here and thus will have to pay for it?
--:-- Noel King: Yeah, I mean, there's the transactional nature of Trump's approach to this conflict, of course.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: There's also the statements that you referenced that have been made publicly by members of his team, which to anyone in Ukraine sound very much like the statements that Russian officials have made since the war started.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So people are very, very concerned that, you know, Russia has swayed the Trump administration.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: And just on Wednesday, Ukrainian President Zelensky suggested in his most forceful statements about Trump so far that... President Trump, who we have great respect for as the leader of the American people, whom we respect very much, who supports us constantly, unfortunately lives in this disinformation space.
--:-- Noel King: And suggested there should be more truth coming from the Trump administration.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: As far as the kind of transactional nature of all this is concerned, the U.S. position is that it has sent billions of dollars in military and financial aid to back Ukraine since the war started,
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As have the Europeans, of course, and that the U.S. side deserves to have something back.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: And it will give no more, as Trump puts it, aid for nothing to Ukraine.
--:-- Noel King: It wants something in exchange.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: And one of the things it wants in exchange is access to these so-called rare earths in Ukraine, mineral resources that Ukraine has in abundance,
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Many of which are Russian-occupied territory and very, very difficult to dig out of the ground.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: But it's one of the ways in which Trump is saying that Ukraine needs to pay the US side back for the help that it's supporting and basically keeping Ukraine as a sovereign state.
--:-- Noel King: It's quite an incredible turnaround from the situation a year ago.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: Ukraine kind of scuffling with the country that has been instrumental in keeping it, you know, alive, essentially keeping it surviving over the past three years since Russia invaded.
--:-- Noel King: You're in Kiev right now. When you talk to Ukrainians about what's happening here.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: I think it's kind of a mixture between defiance, resignation, caution over what this all means.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When you walk the streets of Kiev today, I think you definitely do sense this kind of tension, this mood of experiencing a calm before the storm.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: And Zelensky, the president, he, since the beginning of the war, has been recording each evening a video address to the people.
--:-- Noel King: And this week, he's suddenly kind of stopped recording these addresses.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: Now, maybe this is not something that we need to read too much into, but some people, I think, almost feel like things are more unstable than they used to be,
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that Zelensky does appear to be flustered and frustrated because I think he's struggling to understand how to respond to this whole situation.
--:-- Matthew Luxmore: And Ukrainians, I think, are just as confused as he is.
--:-- Noel King: Thank you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And welcome, Gabrielle Berbet.
--:-- Gabrielle Berbet: Believe it or not, we use music by Breakmaster Cylinder.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is distributed by WNYC.
--:-- Noel King: The show is a part of Vox.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support our journalism, if you will, by joining our membership program today.
--:-- Noel King: Go to vox.com slash members to sign up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And have you heard about the Log Off newsletter?
--:-- Noel King: It's a Vox product that tells one story about what happened in Trump world each afternoon.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So then you can just log off and forget about him for the rest of the night.
--:-- Noel King: Consider it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We'll be logging off in the meantime.
--:-- Noel King: Goodbye. Thank you.
