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--:-- Noelle King: In late May, a Christian woman got very mad at Chick-fil-A. So I'm grieving. It's lunchtime. I'm here with Aubrey. And we really wanted some Chick-fil-A. But because they decided to hire a diversity, equity and inclusion corporate position and also bow down to the woke lords because... You know what she found out? I know this. Their chicken is funded by BlackRock and Vanguard. Are you kidding? Yeah. The critique of wokeness, the finger pointed at BlackRock and Vanguard. This is the language of Vivek Ramaswamy. He's running for the GOP nomination, almost certainly cannot win it. But with his attacks on woke capitalism, he's hurled himself into the national conversation in a way that your Doug Burghams and your Nikki Haley's and your Asa Hutchinson's might envy.
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--:-- Noelle King: Today on Today Explained, a conversation with Vivek Ramaswamy. Chick-fil-A, you are no longer the Lord's chicken. You're actually the woke chicken.
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--:-- Noelle King: This is very Sean. This is very Sean-coded. Gucci loafers. Saks says Saks makes shopping feel totally customized to you, whether that's from an in-store stylist or a visit to Saks.com, where they can show you just what you want to see. They say they'll even let you know when arrivals from your favorite designers are in or when something you've been eyeing is back in stock.
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--:-- Noelle King: You can find inspiration for your personal style every day at Saks Fifth Avenue. Not all journalism is the same. Take The Guardian. Our coverage has something unique. Fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say. So we're free to report the whole picture. We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe. expose corruption wherever we find it, and give fresh perspective on everything from wellness and soccer to culture, the climate and more.
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--:-- Noelle King: Read, watch and listen to The Guardian for free at TheGuardian.com. I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. Last week, I sat down on Zoom with Vivek Ramaswamy. He's running to be the Republican nominee for president of the United States.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: Now to look at the polls, I'm running based on my national vision. That's actually what guides me. I'm an outsider in this race. That's what it means to be an outsider. You start from the outside and you work your way to the top.
--:-- Noelle King: But I'm guided by my vision of what it means to be an American. I think we lack a good answer to that question in our country today. I'm an unapologetic American nationalist. That means I believe in the ideals of the American Revolution, the ideals that set this country into motion 250 years ago. And I am running to revive them and civic pride in our country in the process.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: You have said repeatedly that this country is in a national identity crisis. What do you mean by that?
--:-- Noelle King: Sure. I think that if you ask most people my age, and I'm the first millennial ever to run for president as a Republican, by the way, I'm 37 years old. If you ask people in my generation, what does it mean to be an American? You get a blank stare in response. We're hungry for purpose and meaning and identity. Yet the things that used to fill that void from faith to patriotism to hard work to family, these things have disappeared.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: That leaves a black hole in its wake. And when you have a black hole that runs that deep, that's when the poison begins to fill the void. We can debate what the poison is. I would put wokeism, transgenderism, climatism, COVIDism, depression, anxiety, a lot we can debate, but the poison fills the void.
--:-- Noelle King: And I think too often conservatives in the Republican Party, frankly, including myself, in the last few years, have been focused on stamping out the poison, focusing on what we're running away from. I think it's now time to turn our attention to what are we running to? That's what I'm running to lead is a national revival based on that vision.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: Vivek Ramaswamy is an entrepreneur. He co-founded Strive Asset Management, a firm that has financial backing from Peter Thiel and J.D. Vance, among others. But he's never written a bill or voted to pass a law. He didn't serve in the military or in the foreign service. His bona fides are in business, and he made his name criticizing what he refers to as woke capitalism.
--:-- Noelle King: So we focus this interview, which took place a few days before Donald Trump was indicted again, on his vision for the American economy.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: Yeah, so if I'm to distill my vision into a clear commitment to what I'll actually get done in my eight years in office, the first thing I'm going to do is shut down the administrative state. The second thing I'll do is declare independence from China. And the third thing that I'll do is revive civic pride in our country.
--:-- Noelle King: Tell me about China. What's the plan there?
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: Yeah. So I think that we're dependent on our enemy for our modern way of life. That's different than even what Reagan faced against the USSR. They never put the shoes on our feet or the phones in our pockets. So what I favor is total economic decoupling from China.
--:-- Noelle King: What does that mean?
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: That doesn't mean we're able to bring it all to the US. I would wish to do that. We can't do that. But it does mean then opening up relations with our allies in the Pacific and around the Pacific, including Japan, South Korea, India, Vietnam, Taiwan, the Philippines, Australia, Brazil, and so on.
--:-- Noelle King: And I think that this is an achievable vision where if we're able to stand up with the spine across the table from Xi Jinping, that's what I'm volunteering to do as our next president, and say that unless you reform, unless you dramatically change your mercantilist practices, we are cutting the cord, then I predict Xi Jinping will fold.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: But if he doesn't, then we are willing and able to make that tradeoff to say that we are still now independent from our top enemy.
--:-- Noelle King: I also think it involves cutting off the Russia China alliance and I plan to use ending the Ukraine war in the peace treaty that I will strike with Russia as the trade for getting Russia to exit its alliance with China.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: I think that significantly weakens China and deters war against the United States around the circumstance of Taiwan.
--:-- Noelle King: That a sweeping foreign policy vision that's different than you'll hear from candidates in either major party today. For me, it's part of my broader vision of being what I call a George Washington, America first conservative, putting the country first, declaring independence from our foreign autocrats, and more importantly, avoiding foreign entanglements that do not advance our national interest.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: For the past couple of years, even before you were running for president, you made a bit of a name for yourself, taking aim or criticizing something that you call woke capitalism. Can you define for me what you mean?
--:-- Noelle King: Yes, it is the merger of political agendas into the corporate functions of businesses. So the use of social and environmental and political agendas in corporate America's boardrooms to actually use other people's money to advance agenda that most capital owners did not actually want to advance.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: Broadly speaking, that's what I described in my first book, Woke Inc., which I wrote a few years ago. Say that like a normal person, though. I mean, there were a lot of words in there.
--:-- Noelle King: Yeah, sure, it takes a whole book to explain it, but I can lay it out very simply. I'm the voter. I'm the voter. What are you talking about?
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: Well, I want to clarify one thing. I wrote that book a few years ago. I'm running for president. This is not the heart of my campaign platform. But if you're asking me about what my book was about, I'll tell you what it was about.
--:-- Noelle King: It means businesses pretend like they care about something other than profit and power precisely to gain more profit and power. They're blowing woke smoke to deflect accountability from the questions that they would rather not answer to their customers or to their shareholders or the people who would actually scrutinize those businesses in other ways.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: That's a sham. It's dishonest. It betrays both conservatives and liberals alike. It betrays the heart of the American experiment itself, which said that we settle our political differences through free speech and open debate in the public square where everybody's voice and vote counts equally.
--:-- Noelle King: What woke capitalism says is, no, a small group of business elites get to decide how we settle questions on climate change to racial justice instead. And I reject that vision. And that's not a left wing or a right wing point. That's a fundamentally American point.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: Businesses, though, do operate out of self-interest. This seems like an example of them doing it again. So the reality is businesses today, most publicly traded large businesses in the United States, aren't really comprised of one actor.
--:-- Noelle King: There are so-called shareholders that own those businesses, but I call them so-called shareholders because the shareholders who hold the shares in those companies are firms like BlackRock, State Street, and Vanguard that aren't actually investing their own money.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: They're investing the money of everyday citizens, retirees, 401k plans across this country. And they're using that money of everyday Americans to vote for racial equity audits or environmental constraints that most of those everyday capital owners are not aware of and do not agree with.
--:-- Noelle King: And more importantly, which do not advance their best financial interests. And so that's why you get this puzzling result where in many cases businesses are taking steps that don't necessarily advance their best economic interests because a small group of financial institutions are using other people's money to advance social and political agendas.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: That, of course, begs the question of why those financial institutions aren't then acting in best financial interests of their shareholders. That would be curious.
--:-- Noelle King: Well, the answer is because most of the money they're managing or much of it, the plurality of it, comes from government actors like state pension funds, like that in California or New York, that tell those financial institutions that they don't get to manage that government pension money unless those financial institutions behave exactly the way that they do.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: You have a problem with woke capitalism. I want to ask you about capitalism, though, more broadly.
--:-- Noelle King: For a generation, American companies sent jobs overseas that led to the hollowing out of American communities. It led to some real problems in this country. So along comes an anti-globalization contingent. And this can be illustrated by Donald Trump saying, stop sending American manufacturing jobs overseas.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: Right. This was and it is a real shift in the way we think about business in this country. Are you saying it's OK to send the jobs overseas as long as you're not selling pride merchandise?
--:-- Noelle King: Oh, there's really two different points in there, both of which I'm happy to address. I'm also happy for any business to follow its own stated mission, right? If your mission is to serve customers who want to buy pride merchandise, I don't think it's the role of the state or anybody else or me, for that matter, to interfere with that business objective.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: What I have a problem with is when businesses deviate from that mission at behest of third party actors like BlackRock and State Street that are using other people's money without their permission to steer those businesses in that direction. That's where my problem is.
--:-- Noelle King: Now, that's a different question about our perspectives on trade and protectionism. And here there is some daylight between Trump and myself. I agree with Trump on most of the America First agenda. Here we have some daylight between us.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: I don't believe in protectionism for the sake of protectionism. I think that we should compete in a meritocratic economy.
--:-- Noelle King: A bit of a sharper angle on my question. If an American company needs to ship jobs to Mexico to make its products cheaper, is that okay?
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: That is okay. You and other Republicans make me wonder whether the Republican Party is still the party of business.
--:-- Noelle King: You and others have these frustrations. And I listen to a candidate like you and I think, well, he's either Donald Trump or he's Ronald Reagan, and I can't figure out which.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: Is the Republican Party still the party of business?
--:-- Noelle King: Well, I think that it is. I empathize with your challenge because it's very different to put me in a box, difficult to put me in a box. I think there are elements of Reagan in my vision. There are strong elements of Trump. But I go back, I call myself a George Washington, America first conservative.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: So I'm going to resist the game of putting me in some box and analogizing me to somebody else. I'm running to lead us to the future. That's what I'm chasing, not chasing the past.
--:-- Noelle King: I'm not anti-business. To the contrary, I've lived the full arc of the American dream because capitalism is, I believe, the best known system known to mankind to lift all people up, including people at the bottom up from poverty.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: I didn't grow up in money. My parents came here with almost no money. I've built multi-billion dollar businesses. That is the American dream. I don't apologize for that. I think we should be proud of it.
--:-- Noelle King: But I think the way that businesses are co to advance political agendas including foremost the political agendas of the CCP I think is a real threat And that not capitalism That a Trojan horse disguised as capitalism.
--:-- Vivek Ramaswamy: But the heart of what's in that Trojan horse is a political agenda. And whether that political agenda comes from a certain political movement here at home or more concerningly comes from the Chinese Communist Party across the Pacific, that's actually what I resist.
--:-- Noelle King: That was Vivek Ramaswamy running for the Republican nomination for the presidency of the United States.
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--:-- Noelle King: Coming up next, so is everyone else. Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards. These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program. You swipe your card and you get one cent on the hundred dollars. But with your rent, frequently you just pay month after month. You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head. Not anymore, says Built Rewards.
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--:-- Noelle King: Built Rewards says it lets you earn points on your rent. By paying rent through Built, they say you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, perhaps a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and so much more.
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--:-- Noelle King: 2024 on Today Explained. Dave Weigel is a political reporter at Semaphore. Dave is not a pundit. He's a real reporter. And he's been spending a lot of time on the trail with Republicans who want to be president.
--:-- Dave Weigel: I was at the Iowa Roast and Ride in Des Moines, where eight candidates spoke. It is great to be back at the Roast and Ride. I rode and I roasted on the ride. Before this, I was with Nikki Haley, with Tim Scott, as respectively. He launched his campaign and she continued hers in New Hampshire.
--:-- Noelle King: You've got biological boys playing in girls' sports. It is the women's issue of our time. Where is everybody?
--:-- Dave Weigel: If I can get out with a candidate, I try to do so. I want to ask you about the candidate that I just spoke to, Vivek Ramaswamy. He would seem to have one or two advantages, including this very sticky anti-woke capitalism bid that is resonating with certain parts of the country.
--:-- Noelle King: You've looked at them all. Let me ask you about Ramaswamy in particular. How much is he resonating with voters out on the trail?
--:-- Dave Weigel: Well, he's gone from zero to low single digits, which is all you can ask for as a startup candidate like him. The model he is following, I think, was built by Pete Buttigieg in 2020, which is be very accessible to the media, be very present in front of voters and say things that they're interested in.
--:-- Noelle King: The difference was Buttigieg was trying kind of an Obama way to look as electable and as broad appealing as possible. I believe in this country because America uniquely holds the promise of a place where everyone can belong.
--:-- Dave Weigel: Whereas Ramoswamy's argument is he's running on a MAGA plus agenda that he says is just going to be so popular that the party will win by a landslide.
--:-- Noelle King: You might disagree with each other about corporate tax rates or about whether ivermectin treats COVID, but those are details. Off the top of your head, can you list for me those who are running in the Republican presidential primary?
--:-- Dave Weigel: Yes. Vivek is the easy one to name. Thank you for that. And Donald Trump, Ron DeSantis, officially in it. Nikki Haley, officially in it. Mike Pence, Asa Hutchinson, the former governor of Arkansas.
--:-- Noelle King: I'm convinced that people want leaders that appeal to the best of America and not simply appeal to our worst instincts.
--:-- Dave Weigel: Steve Laffey, the former mayor of Cranston, who is running, but I've yet to see him in person or anything. We need someone who's a financial expert now, who has the business acumen. Larry Elder, the conservative author, radio host.
--:-- Noelle King: If you like the America First agenda, but you want a vehicle who has not turned off suburban women, I'm your man. Harry Johnson, who's a quality inspection businessman.
--:-- Dave Weigel: I am pro-life, pro-Second Amendment, anti-woke, anti-China. Tim Scott, the senator from South Carolina. We must protect the America we love. And that starts with our southern border. It is time to build a wall and close our southern border.
--:-- Noelle King: Those are the key candidates, except, and I should have mentioned Chris Christie's getting into this.
--:-- Dave Weigel: Did he ever do this with you? Did Donald Trump come to New Hampshire seven years ago and stand in the middle of the room and take any question from anybody without knowing who you were or what your question was going to be?
--:-- Noelle King: Oh, no.
--:-- Dave Weigel: There's a lot of people like Christie, like these other candidates who say, well, I can break through and be the anti-Trump candidate. I don't believe that anyone else in this race can pull it off.
--:-- Noelle King: Dave, how did the large Republican field react to the news last week that Donald Trump had been indicted again?
--:-- Dave Weigel: Well, with one exception, that's Aisha Hutchinson, the former governor of Arkansas. Every Republican condemned some part of this indictment, whether it looked bad and it set a bad precedent, that was kind of the Mike Pence position, or whether it was just a total miscarriage of justice That the Vivek Ramaswamy position
--:-- Noelle King: What we see right now is a ruling party in our country that will stop at nothing even using police force to arrest its political opponents
--:-- Dave Weigel: So most of the people competing with Donald Trump who want him to not be the nominee, want themselves to be the nominee, they took the Trump position, the modified version of the Trump position, that this should not be happening.
--:-- Noelle King: I think there needs to be one standard of justice in this country. Let's enforce it on everybody and make sure we all know the rules.
--:-- Dave Weigel: If you're looking at the guys in the lead, Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis, you have to be thinking each one of those guys has a weakness. What is it for Trump? What is it for DeSantis? Or am I entirely wrong and they're not like, no, no, this guy doesn't have one weakness. This guy is just weak in general.
--:-- Noelle King: Well, they have a couple with DeSantis. They're grasping around. Nobody's figured it out yet. The basic one, which I think you see echoed in the press, is that DeSantis is not very warm. How are you doing? Wow, look at this. How are you guys? Good to see you. So what do you got? Go right over here? Okay, good deal. Good deal.
--:-- Dave Weigel: The other is that he is too conservative to really come over. And you see in some public polling, as DeSantis has gotten better known, viewers have started to see him as more conservative. He's gotten a little less popular. They'll say, and Chris Sinunu, who said he's not going to run Governor New Hampshire, I think is the most explicit about this, that just the stuff he's doing, the six-week abortion ban, the battle with Disney, they're just convinced that stuff is going to be a loser in a national election.
--:-- Noelle King: I don't like the wokeism. We need to stand up and fight wokeism and cancel culture, but you don't penalize private businesses because they disagree with you politically. They are not sure in their minds and their arguments how you can win the Midwest if that's what you're known for, if that's what you're talking about all the time.
--:-- Dave Weigel: I've seen that even with some conservatives who like DeSantis. Why can't he talk a little bit more about the economy, a little bit less about that?
--:-- Noelle King: And with Trump, he has this hardcore base. The candidates know they're not going to break into that base. There's nobody who's going to convince the front row MAGA supporter, the guy who shows up to 50 Trump rallies. They're going to stay with him. But most Republican base electorate, the voters who maybe skip some primaries but come and turn out for others, they like him mostly but are not necessarily wedded to voting for him again.
--:-- Dave Weigel: And there's a small share of Republicans, and we're talking like 30 percent, sometimes less, that do not like Trump and think there should be another candidate. And you meet them. If you're out on the trail talking to Republican voters, you do meet people. And I don't think they're trying to flatter reporters when we asked about it. They really think he didn't need to lose the 2020 election. He lost it because of mistakes he made and because of an attitude that was very good for content, very good for clicks, but didn't serve him very well.
--:-- Noelle King: That's the argument people are making to themselves and they think they can beat Trump is, look, there's enough of that opinion out there that if they meet me and they see how broad I'm trying to appeal to the country and how nice I am, Nikki Haley is somebody I think who makes this really explicit, then yeah, they're going to go for me.
--:-- Dave Weigel: Is a field this big to Donald Trump's advantage? Yeah, the size of the field definitely helps Donald Trump. I think there are efforts to calculate how much of the Republican Party is his base, how flexible they are. A lot of people will flatter themselves and say, well, maybe it's 30 percent and I can get the rest of it. Chris Christie in New Hampshire announcing his campaign challenged the premise that there was such a thing as a Trump voter. He doesn't own them. He didn't take title to them. By the way, I voted for him twice. Okay? Am I a Trump voter then? Hell no, man.
--:-- Noelle King: It's very clear from polling, and it's accentuated when he is in legal trouble, that most of the Republican Party really likes Donald Trump, would not mind if he was president again. It just has some concerns about electability. There's some new polling out this morning on former President Trump's favorability with voters, and this poll was conducted after the indictment was announced, and it appears to show some good news for Trump.
--:-- Dave Weigel: And in that climate, every candidate who presents an alternative divvies up the vote against Trump. And as we saw over the last few days, sometimes just amplifies Trump. Sometimes just in the race getting some of the name for themselves, but adding one more voice to this chorus saying that what happens to Trump is unconscionable, illegal, unconstitutional, etc., which helps him.
--:-- Noelle King: If these candidates who poll at 1%, 2%, 4%, if it is really unlikely that any of them is going to win, why do they run? No one will say I'm doing this just for media attention. That might be the end result. I mean, there are people whose political careers were over, like Rick Santorum, who gained years of relevance by running for president, even though when they got in the race, they did not have a hardcore plan of how to win it.
--:-- Dave Weigel: So I think Ramaswamy, who I've talked about a couple of times, does he want to be president? I think he does. Would he be happy if after this race is over, he's in the cabinet or strive? His anti-woke capital firm has a lot of new clients. I don't think that would be bad. I think there are candidates like Hutchinson who really believe that they should be president, that they could do the job well, and that somebody needs to speak out against the lurch in the party towards just defending Trump all the time.
--:-- Noelle King: Everyone in the race will say they want to be president, but both those people I just mentioned have such a tough road ahead that they really think we need a few things to break our way. We need Donald Trump to be so damaged that he can't really be the nominee. We need Ron DeSantis to alienate people, and that's our path.
--:-- Dave Weigel: That's the answer there, is that there are people who maybe doesn't make sense right now that they could ever win the nomination. They think if a few things happen and they're in the right position, they have introduced themselves, run ads, toured Iowa, met people that they can inherit the Republican electorate. That's their theory.
--:-- Noelle King: That was reporter Dave Weigel of Semaphore. Today's show was produced by Miles Bryan and edited by Matthew Collette. It was fact-checked by Laura Bullard and engineered by Patrick Boyd. I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained.
