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--:-- Host: There was this brief moment a couple years ago when it looked like Americans just might finally get their credit card spending in check. We were spending less during COVID, and those federal stimulus checks meant a lot of us were actually making more money. But then when those ended and inflation reared its ugly head and came back around, it really caught people off guard. And they're digging themselves deeper and deeper into debt in order to make ends meet.
--:-- Host: Over the past year and a half, as Americans were putting more on their credit cards than ever before, interest rates rose on those cards by nearly a third. I could put all of my entire paycheck towards paying it off for the entire year and it would still take me about two years to pay it all off plus interest.
--:-- Host: How Americans racked up over a trillion dollars in credit card debt and what it'll take to get us out of it. Coming up on Today Explained.
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--:-- Host: It's Today Explained. I'm John Gwinn-Hill, filling in as hosts. And today, we're talking to this guy. I'm Nick Wolney, and I'm a managing editor at CNET and a finance journalist. Nick's been following the rapid growth of credit card debt, talking to banks and credit card companies and regular people dealing with debt.
--:-- Nick Wolney: The first thing you've got to understand about credit cards right now is interest rates. In Q1 of 2024, the Federal Reserve reported that the average credit card rate is 21.59%. This is a record high. We've been above 20% for a year. And for retail cards, Target or you go to wherever it is and I'm just trying to buy dish soap. and they're like, you know, do you want this card? Do you want the red card? You know, all those retail cards, those tend to have an average closer to 30%.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And so in the moment, if someone is cash strapped or particularly there tends to be something like a sign-on bonus or perhaps a credit, an opportunity to save some extra money in the moment, a lot of people will fall prey to that and not realize that they have this 30% interest charge that is accruing on this and they just have this lagging credit card debt persists as a result.
--:-- Nick Wolney: I wonder, do people understand what they're getting into when they get these high-limit, high-interest credit cards and then don't pay off their balance every month? Do people even realize that they're getting a high-limit, high-interest credit card? I don't think so.
--:-- Nick Wolney: When I interviewed a financial planner at Northwestern Mutual last year, she pointed out that her clients would regularly say, oh, I'm good. I'm making the minimum payment. I'm good. I'm paying my credit card. And she's like, no, that's the minimum payment. And these are the people who are probably more fiscally savvy if they've hired a financial advisor, right? If you've hired a financial advisor at Northwestern Mutual, you're probably at least thinking about your money and about your expenses and things like that.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And those people are saying, oh, I'm good. I'm making the minimum payment. I'm good. It's quite hard to visualize how much something actually costs when you're just making these very, very small payments. And it's difficult for us, I think, to realize the total amount of interest and how much extra interest we would pay.
--:-- Nick Wolney: So let's say you're carrying a $1,000 balance on your credit card. Two years ago, if you were making minimum payments, it would have cost you $729 in interest to pay it off. At today's rates, you are paying almost $1,200 in interest.
--:-- Nick Wolney: You know, credit cards didn't used to be as profitable as they are right now. And it also used to be that the minimum monthly payment was 5% of your balance. In the 1980s, some very smart mathematicians realized that if they made two tweaks to credit card culture, there'd be a lot more profit to be made. And those two tweaks were to lower the minimum monthly payment from 5% to 2%, and then to increase people's credit limit.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And so it makes the consumer feel good in the moment because rather than being almost maxed out on your credit card, if you have a much higher limit. You're not as maxed out. You've got a lot of wiggle room. And then if your minimum monthly payment is less, then it's like, oh, this is not so bad. It's only 2% of my balance rather than 5% of my balance.
--:-- Nick Wolney: What that all meant is that people were more likely to have higher balances. The average household is now carrying about $6,500 in credit card debt. That is the highest in almost four decades.
--:-- Nick Wolney: As you were doing that explanation, I couldn't help but hear the voice of my mom. Like, I remember the first time my credit card limit got raised and I didn't add, they were just like, yeah, hey girl, you want some more thousands to spend? And my mom was like, no, that's what they want. Like, don't do it.
--:-- Nick Wolney: Someone I spoke to last year as well talked about his name is Josue Henriquez, lives in San Francisco. And he talked about how, you know, when he emigrated to the U.S., you know, he wanted to build his credit to eventually buy a house one day. And so he took out a credit card when he was 18 and he got a $500 limit, which does not exist anymore.
--:-- Nick Wolney: But over time, as his limit increased, as he got more credit card offers, fast forward 10 years, he's $25,000 in debt. He has to work with a debt consolidation company to pay it all down, completely wrecks his credit score because of what's needed in order to work with those creditors and things like that.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And then during COVID, he lost his job. And so even though he had paid it all down, after seven or eight months, he was back to $20,000 in credit card debt just to make ends meet.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And I think that him sharing that story with me just felt like something that is a paradigm for what a lot of people are experiencing with credit cards They just trying to make ends meet They just trying to survive They slowly trying to pay it down and pay a little bit extra every month or every other month But because people have so little in savings, you know, you're one car problem away from being knocked all the way back to the beginning, so to speak.
--:-- Host: My name is Sam calling from Greenville, South Carolina. I had to use credit cards to get me through college because the federal government with not loan me enough money to make ends meet, I am now working almost 80 hours a week just to make the minimum payments on my credit card.
--:-- Host: Hi, my name is Olena. I am from Atlanta, Georgia, and I am actually about to file for bankruptcy because of just the high cost of living. It has put me into really deep credit card debt. I can't even make the minimum payment anymore.
--:-- Host: Hi, my name is Lillian. I'm 26 years old. I live in Nashville, Tennessee. I currently pay off my credit card every month at the end of the month. But it has been a major problem with me saving money. Just not being able to save those extra $2,000 a month because it's all going towards the credit card.
--:-- Nick Wolney: Is this credit card debt evenly distributed throughout demographics? Or are there subsets of people in the country who are feeling this a lot more? One group that's having a hard time when it comes to credit card debt is Gen Z.
--:-- Nick Wolney: A report from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York found that one in every seven Gen Z credit card borrowers are completely maxed out on their balances. One factor to this is that Gen Z credit card holders have much lower limits to begin with. So the median credit limit for Gen Z was $4,500, whereas it's over $16,000 for all the other generations.
--:-- Nick Wolney: But it illustrates how younger borrowers get trapped in this cycle right from the start, especially when they either aren't earning enough or they're using a card as their emergency fund since they don't have that safety net established yet.
--:-- Nick Wolney: There was also a recent study from TransUnion, which found that 84% of 22 to 24-year-olds had a credit card in 2023. When that same age bracket was measured with millennials back in 2013, only 61% of them had a credit card.
--:-- Nick Wolney: So it's not really a kids being kids argument. Whether they want to or they need to, Gen Z consumers are opening up and using their credit cards sooner than previous generations.
--:-- Nick Wolney: I want to talk about the almighty credit score, like which is part of the reason people even get credit cards in the first place. You know, you need it to get a car, you need to get a house, like you need it for all these things.
--:-- Nick Wolney: What is this doing to people's credit scores? Utilization is a pretty chunky part of credit score. it accounts for 30% of the overall FICO score. So in the moment, as long as people are paying their credit cards and they're not maxing themselves out in terms of their balances, it won't necessarily impact their credit score.
--:-- Nick Wolney: Delinquency does impact the credit score, right? If you start missing payments, then you're going to get dinged for that. It's also a great point that credit score culture in general is, it's kind of twisted. And for most people, when they're young, the easiest way to build up your credit history and to get a line of credit of some kind is the credit card.
--:-- Nick Wolney: That's the fastest way to open up a line of credit in most cases. And so we kind of have this culture that, I mean, not even just culture, it's just in terms of how people buy a house, how people buy a car, your credit score, it's very much your financial rating, you know, it's your track record.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And so it's kind of difficult for us to divorce ourselves from credit card culture because of that. Yeah, I guess it's like, it's one of those things where it's like, okay, in the grand scheme, you probably need a credit card before your frontal lobe develops. But it's like, should you have a credit card before your frontal lobe develops? I don't know.
--:-- Nick Wolney: I think of me at 21. No, take that away from her. Well, and last year I spoke to a financial educator who teaches classes in high schools, teaches financial literacy classes in high schools.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And something she pointed out, She said this happens in every single class. Kids will, well, they won't raise their hand in the class. They'll come up to her afterwards, you know, and they'll say, you know, my parents gave me this credit card and it's just, it feels like it's just like free money, you know, and it's like, oh, you know, so the parent, it feels like they're doing a good job in terms of opening up a credit card and helping their child with their credit history.
--:-- Nick Wolney: But for many of those kids, they don't, they don't understand why they have the credit card and they don't understand how to use it. And, you know, I would assert that young people are perhaps more impulsive, you know, at times as they start to come into adulthood and things like that.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And so just having that financial literacy piece in place, you know, is really, really important.
--:-- Announcer (in a smooth voice): More with CNET's Nick Wolney when Today Explained returns.
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--:-- Host: Today Explained, we're back with CNET's Nick Wolney talking credit cards.
--:-- Host: Okay, Nick, wasn't there legislation post-financial crisis that was supposed to fix all of this and ease the burden on credit card holders? I mean, there was, and it did ease some of the burden. But, you know, when you're 100 feet down the rabbit hole and you get a law that gets passed and, you know, you come 10 feet back up, you're still quite far down the rabbit hole.
--:-- Nick Wolney: The CARD Act. That was in 2009. It gave consumers at least 21 days from the date of statement to actually pay their bill. This always used to bug me. You know, when you'd get like, suddenly it was due on the 19th, when it had been the 31st.
--:-- Nick Wolney: It limited excessive marketing to young adults. There was a lot of marketing towards college students, right, who might be more susceptible to getting a credit card before they have a fully robust financial education, financial literacy.
--:-- Nick Wolney: So it did make a little bit of a dent, but unfortunately we're dealing with quite a large boulder here. And so, you know, there's more work to be done, certainly.
--:-- Host: How did we get to the point where there can be these wild, wild interest rates? Regulations have loosened on credit card interest rates, and there are a few reasons why.
--:-- Nick Wolney: So some history here. There's a Supreme Court opinion that came out in 1978, Marquette National Bank versus First of Omaha Corp. And this opinion allowed national banks to be governed by the usury laws of the state that they are headquartered.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And so famously, in the late 70s, Citibank was just absolutely drowning. Inflation was extremely high circa 1980. It was actually so high that banks like Citibank were losing money on every single dollar that was on a credit card because they were capped on how much interest they could charge their consumers.
--:-- Nick Wolney: So Citibank famously courted the governor of South Dakota and said, hey, we'd love to move our headquarters to South Dakota. Will your legislature invite us to come to South Dakota? And they agreed. So they abolished the usury laws in South Dakota. Citibank moved there. Several other banks moved there. Delaware followed. Nevada followed.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And so as a result, no matter what state you live in, if you have a credit card from that bank and that bank is headquartered in Delaware or South Dakota, that bank can charge whatever it wants to on the credit card.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And as a result, you have this very deregulated landscape that allows national banks to jack up those credit card rates. so we're at a record high right now but have americans always carried credit card debt since these cards have been available of course that's what what else is it for right like all the way back in the 1950s you know those very first credit cards that came out there was a card called diner's club which was one of the first forms of a credit card
--:-- Nick Wolney: it's easy to spot a member of the club. Last year, Diners Club members had over 10 million fine meals, took over 500,000 vacations, and saved many helpings of chop suey.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And it was really, it was very much branded as this social club card, right? You could go out, you'd be in the Diners Club and things like that. And it was branded very much as an identity.
--:-- Nick Wolney: That was also akin to just a lot of the marketing and branding in general in the 1950s. Like when you put your Amex on the card and everyone's like, oh it's so heavy it's metal you know you made it when your cards go from sounding like this to sounding like this or do you see this is a trend on tiktok now uh gen z is showing off their amexes as a flex that sounds like a good way to get uh your credit card information stolen right that's what i thought like don't flash your platinum amex to me you know and so and so it's that's kind of interesting for them as well it's like the social clout of having the platinum amex is worth the $695 annual fee to that.
--:-- Nick Wolney: But if you look at the total credit card debt in America, it's just gone up and up and up and up and up. We had two corrections. We had a correction in the housing crisis, and then we also had a correction during COVID where people were like, oh, crap, I better pay this down in case I lose my job. And so we did see corrections there, but otherwise we have seen that number steadily go up.
--:-- Nick Wolney: Another reason we're trying to sound the alarm now is that people are really struggling right now. historically in Q1 of each year, we see a little bit of a payoff. People come off the holidays, they're like, oh God, what have I done? And they're actually responsible. There's some of that New Year's resolution energy as well. People tend to pay down some of the balance. So we usually see a dimple in that line graph
--:-- Nick Wolney: And for the last two years so Q1 of 2023 and this Q1 as well people really didn't do that So even most recently we went from trillion to trillion And this is the quarter where people are supposed to be really making a dent and paying down their balances. So it's concerning to some economists that people are not following that usual behavior, that people are actually needing their credit card in order to make ends meet.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And there's also some concern that in terms of consumer spending, which accounts for a large part of overall GDP, that that is perhaps being propped up somewhat by people using their credit cards and spending money that they don't necessarily have.
--:-- Host: Are there states or lawmakers who are advocating for capping these interest rates right now? Yeah, I mean, it's happened multiple times. it tends to die in legislation or when it gets to a certain House committee or a Senate committee.
--:-- Nick Wolney: We have a couple of different ones that have been introduced over the years. The most recent one is the Capping Credit Card Interest Rates Act. That was introduced by Senator Hawley of Missouri, which was not on my bingo card that he would be the one to introduce that. 18% ought to be the cap. My bill would cap it across the board, all credit cards, cap fees as well, so the credit card companies can't come in through the back door and charge you more.
--:-- Nick Wolney: This is basic fairness for working people in this country. The last time it was introduced, it was introduced by Bernie Sanders and AOC. Sometimes politicians will introduce these laws, even though they know they're going to die in a vote, because it's a political gambit for them, right? So Senator Hawley, when he's out on the campaign trail, people say, like, you're not fighting for the little guy. He'd be like, yeah, I did. You know, I introduced this bill, you know, even though, you know, there's a tremendous amount of lobbying money from banks, understandably, that is flowing through, flowing through D.C. at any given moment.
--:-- Nick Wolney: So while we do see some of these different pieces of legislation emerge, you know, you go online to look at the status of the bill and it's been introduced. You know, the stage that it's in is, OK, it's been introduced and it's with the committee. And, you know, it's unlikely that it's going to see the light of day again.
--:-- Nick Wolney: Is there a policy fix to this? There is. There is a policy fix, you know. Whether or not we can bring it to fruition, I think, is the challenge. So the most immediate policy fix would be to cap interest rates, you know, and to just allow us to stop the bleeding in terms of consumers falling deeper and deeper into debt.
--:-- Nick Wolney: Taking a really good look at what are the limits that we are extending to consumers. We've got another, I'll just say it, we've got another villain in the picture and that villain's name is Buy Now Pay Later.
--:-- Nick Wolney: Explore your favorite stores in the Klana app. Once you have chosen what you would like to buy, or if you know how much you'd like to spend, select Pay with Klarna to create a one-time card. The Klarna of it all. Yeah. And so what's tricky about Buy Now, Pay Later is that those companies have been skirting reporting requirements. And so for many people, we can't even see how much that they have out on Buy Now, Pay Later.
--:-- Nick Wolney: Bloomberg did a Harris poll last month where they found that a third of respondents said they have over $1,000 out on buy now, pay later. And this is four payments over six weeks. It's purposely four payments so that they can skirt under the Truth in Lending Act, which once you get to five payments or more on any form of debt or any kind of loan, then you have a bunch of additional regulatory requirements that you have to adhere to.
--:-- Nick Wolney: So that's why you almost always see it be four payments, usually over a six-week period. And so it's sort of a cousin to the credit card, right? So now people already have all their credit card debt. And you can use your credit card for buy now, pay later as well.
--:-- Nick Wolney: Is there a way to get off this credit card ride? Like, is there a way you can just opt out and say, I'm not doing this? No, no. If you have credit card debt, then it's just going back to the bones of personal finance, right? I like to say that when we come down to it, personal finance, it's just eight words. Make more money, lower expenses, invest the difference.
--:-- Nick Wolney: And so if you're trying to pay down that debt and you want to put some extra money toward that debt, then taking a good look at your budget, seeing where you could lower expenses, perhaps bringing some extra money into the picture, that's going to be the most impactful way to make a dent on those balances.
--:-- Nick Wolney: Stop using the credit card. Maybe if you're someone who uses the digital wallet a lot, maybe it's time to take those cards out of your wallet just so that you're not tempted in the moment to shop or to spend, things like that.
--:-- Nick Wolney: It could also be time to do some of those maybe more unsavory financial activities. You call your cell phone company to see if you can get your bill lowered. You call the credit card company to see if you can get the APR lowered. There's plenty of free scripts and stuff like that online.
--:-- Nick Wolney: I know it doesn't sound like much, but $50 or $100 a month of savings, it really adds up. It's over $1,000 a year when you add it up. And for many people, that can help make the biggest difference.
--:-- Nick Wolney: We need some policy change that is about the cost of living. as well, not just about the credit card as the instrument, because I think, you know, despite their best intentions, consumers are going to keep using that tool to make ends meet for as long as it's available to them and for as long as prices are at where they're at right now.
--:-- Host: That's CNET's Nick Wolney. You can read his latest on credit cards, Maxed Out, Inside America's Credit Card Debt Crisis and What We Do Next over at CNET.com.
--:-- Host: Today's episode was produced by Victoria Chamberlain, edited by Matt Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard and Amina Alsadi, and engineered by Andrea Kristinsdottir and Patrick Boyd.
--:-- Host: I'm John Glyn Hill, and this is Today Explained. And when I'm not filling in for the very cool Today Explained hosts, I host my own podcast for Vox.
--:-- Host: In the fall, we're launching a new show where we'll answer all your questions. You ask it and we'll find you an answer, no matter how big or how small your question is. Everything from how to redo the Constitution to what makes jar lids so hard to open.
--:-- Host: You can email askvox at vox.com or call 1-800-618-8545. And we may reach out to you this summer while we're working on the new show.
