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--:-- Michelle Martin: The military is in Los Angeles in response to anti-ice protests. If the crowds were trying to push through them or throwing rocks at their face, they could protect themselves, but they can't enforce the law.
--:-- A Martinez: So what's the military allowed to do?
--:-- Michelle Martin: I'm Michelle Martin, that's A. Martinez, and this is Up First from NPR News.
--:-- A Martinez: As immigration enforcement efforts expand, raids are driving some workers into hiding. It has had a chilling effect in terms of people showing up for work.
--:-- Michelle Martin: How are businesses that rely on workers without legal authorization thinking about the crackdown?
--:-- A Martinez: And a Manhattan federal court of appeals will hear an argument to overturn President Trump's criminal conviction. This argument is such a stretch in this particular case.
--:-- Michelle Martin: What argument will Trump's lawyers make? Stay with us.
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--:-- Michelle Martin: Downtown Los Angeles was under curfew last night for the first time since anti-ice protests began on Friday. City officials said the protests have been largely peaceful, but instances of vandalism and looting led them to implement the curfew.
--:-- A Martinez: Meanwhile, the Trump administration has moved ahead with the deployment of Marines and more National Guard over the objections of state and city leaders.
--:-- Michelle Martin: Joining us now to talk about the military's role in Los Angeles is NPR's Martin Costi.
--:-- Martin Costi: So, Martin, the National Guard arrived over the weekend. Marines are now in the city, though we don't yet know where they'll be. Is it clear what their mission is?
--:-- Michelle Martin: Well, the administration says they're there to protect federal facilities and employees.
--:-- Martin Costi: And we've seen some of that, you know, the row of National Guard with shields standing there as a human barrier in front of federal buildings. There have also been reports, though, of the Guard protecting ICE agents out in the field as they do their jobs.
--:-- A Martinez: And that could put some of those soldiers into more dynamic situations that might start to look a little bit like they're part of enforcement.
--:-- Martin Costi: Okay, would they be allowed to do that to assist ICE directly with its enforcement work?
--:-- Michelle Martin: The experts say no because of a 19th century law known as posse comitatus, which bars the military from acting as police inside the country.
--:-- Martin Costi: I asked William Banks about this. He's a professor at Syracuse University and he's been studying this very question about what's legal for the military inside the country for years.
--:-- William Banks: For sure they can arrest if the crowds are trying to push through them or throwing rocks at their face or something like that. They could protect themselves. That federal protection but they can enforce the law.
--:-- Michelle Martin: Okay, so he says the military's not supposed to do law enforcement but they have been deployed inside the country over the years.
--:-- Martin Costi: I mean, I remember back in 1992 right here in Los Angeles where I was during the Rodney King riots. I mean, how is this military deployment different?
--:-- William Banks: Well, legally, the difference is that in '92, President George H.W. Bush invoked the Insurrection Act, which allows for the use of the active military to quell civil disturbances.
--:-- Martin Costi: But maybe just as important here is the difference that this time around, the state and local authorities don't want the military's help, and they don't know what to expect from the military now that they're here.
--:-- Michelle Martin: And you can hear that frustration in the voice of L.A. Mayor Karen Bass.
--:-- Martin Costi: This is her last night when someone asked her, what are the Marines doing? Who knows? I mean, the bottom line is that we're not told. Basically, we have to operate on rumors.
--:-- Michelle Martin: So rumor has it that there's 700 Marines that are going to come here. I have no idea what they would do when they would get here.
--:-- Martin Costi: And, you know, this is really unusual. Normally, you'd have the military plugged into the local emergency management system coordinating with the police.
--:-- Michelle Martin: Instead, what we have here is the state suing the feds to pull the military out.
--:-- Martin Costi: And that's not really a great climate for smooth coordination.
--:-- Michelle Martin: So what happens then if, say, the National Guard and or the Marines get into a situation that requires force?
--:-- Martin Costi: I mean, how prepared is the military to use force against American civilians?
--:-- William Banks: The National Guard get crowd control training, and they have some of the gear, such as those shields.
--:-- Martin Costi: As to the Marines, well, I talked to Mick Wagoner. He's a retired Marine Corps lieutenant colonel who focused on military law.
--:-- Mick Wagoner: There are some Marines who get specialized training for missions such as evacuating U.S. embassies that are threatened by crowds.
--:-- Martin Costi: But he said that's just not the same as police work.
--:-- Mick Wagoner: And he recalled an infamous case during the '92 riots in L.A. when the police asked some Marines to cover them as they approached a house.
--:-- Michelle Martin: And the Marines then lay down suppressing fire.
--:-- Mick Wagoner: The police were completely aghast. What are you doing? And you said, you said to cover you. It's like, yeah, tell us if somebody sticks their head out or if you see a gun or something.
--:-- Martin Costi: But Jesus, you just lit up that house.
--:-- Mick Wagoner: Wagner says that case shows just how differently the police and military approach things and even understand basic words like cover me.
--:-- Michelle Martin: And he says he really hopes that these Marines in L.A. now will be kept in the rear behind the National Guard because at least some of them may be police officers in their day jobs and may have more training for crowds.
--:-- Martin Costi: All right. That's NPR's Martin Costi. Thanks a lot.
--:-- Martin Costi: You're welcome.
--:-- Michelle Martin: President Trump's immigration crackdown is driving some people out of the country. It's also driving others underground, and that poses a challenge for businesses that have traditionally relied on workers who are in the country without legal authorization.
--:-- A Martinez: NPR's Scott Horsley is with us now with the economic impact of the president's immigration actions.
--:-- Scott Horsley: Good morning, Michelle.
--:-- Michelle Martin: Good morning, Scott. So who's being targeted in these latest efforts?
--:-- Scott Horsley: The dragnet is getting wider. During the campaign, the president promised mass deportation. But during his first few months in the White House, Trump and his team struggled to reach that kind of mass.
--:-- Michelle Martin: There are very few people coming across the southern border now.
--:-- Scott Horsley: So the administration has stepped up its arrest in the middle of the country. And speaking to reporters outside the White House recently, Borders are Tom Homan promised an increased focus on workplace raids.
--:-- Michelle Martin: So you're going to see more teams on the streets you've never seen before. You're going to see more work site enforcement than you've ever seen in the history of this nation.
--:-- Scott Horsley: Well, no, flood the zone. High-profile raids on farms and construction sites and restaurants have certainly captured attention and driven some workers into hiding.
--:-- Michelle Martin: According to the Labor Department's tally, more than a million foreign-born workers dropped out of the labor force over the last two months.
--:-- Scott Horsley: Now we don't know how many of those were in the country illegally, but it's likely some people have quit going to work because they're fearful of being arrested and possibly deported.
--:-- Michelle Martin: And how is that affecting the economy?
--:-- Scott Horsley: If you look at the broad national numbers, it's not having a huge impact yet.
--:-- Michelle Martin: Both construction companies and restaurants, for example, continued to add jobs last month.
--:-- Scott Horsley: Those are two industries that typically employ a lot of workers who are in the country illegally.
--:-- Michelle Martin: But there are plenty of anecdotal reports of economic fallout from these enforcement actions.
--:-- Scott Horsley: Robert Dietz is chief economist at the National Association of Home Builders. He says every time there's a raid on a big box store or a restaurant, word gets around at nearby construction sites.
--:-- Robert Dietz: It has had a chilling effect in terms of people showing up for work, but it tends to be kind of localized.
--:-- Michelle Martin: You know, the impact is for a week or two, and then people have got to show up and work and earn money for their families.
--:-- Scott Horsley: Still, Dietz is concerned about what stepped-up enforcement might mean for the home building industry, where a third of the workforce is foreign-born.
--:-- Michelle Martin: It's not likely to ease what is already a severe housing shortage in the country.
--:-- Scott Horsley: So how critical are workers without legal status to the overall job market?
--:-- Michelle Martin: A couple of years ago, economists at Goldman Sachs estimated that something over 4% of all workers in the U.S. are living here illegally.
--:-- Scott Horsley: In addition to targeting those workers, the president's also been closing off various legal avenues of immigration.
--:-- Michelle Martin: And he's been stripping hundreds of thousands of immigrants who did have some kind of temporary permission to be in the country of their right to work.
--:-- Scott Horsley: Muzaffar Chishti, who's a senior fellow at the Migration Policy Institute, says the combined effects of all those immigration policies could be far-reaching.
--:-- Muzaffar Chishti: Our economy, especially certain sectors of economy, are heavily driven by immigrant labor.
--:-- Michelle Martin: We may want to not tolerate unauthorized immigration, but we still need real labor market needs to be met.
--:-- Scott Horsley: Keep in mind, the native-born population of the U.S. is getting older. 10,000 baby boomers are retiring every single day.
--:-- Michelle Martin: And in recent years, it has really been the growth of the foreign-born workforce that has allowed the U.S. economy to keep growing.
--:-- Scott Horsley: Now, the president and his team have a different strategy. It's one that depends on pulling more native-born people, especially men, off the sidelines and getting them into the workforce.
--:-- Michelle Martin: Nothing in recent history suggests that's likely, but that is what would be needed to replace the immigrant workers we're now losing.
--:-- Scott Horsley: That is NPR's Scott Horsley. Scott, thank you.
--:-- Scott Horsley: You're welcome.
--:-- Michelle Martin: An appeal hearing for President Trump's criminal conviction and sentencing is set to take place in a federal court of appeals in Manhattan today.
--:-- A Martinez: It is the latest in a case involving hush money payments to the adult film star Stormy Daniels ahead of the 2016 election in which Trump was convicted on all 34 counts last year.
--:-- Michelle Martin: NPR's Kat Lonsdorf is in New York for the hearing.
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: So Trump was convicted in May of last year before the election on 34 counts of falsifying business records, which he did to conceal a payment to Stormy Daniels.
--:-- Michelle Martin: The payment was in exchange for her silence ahead of the 2016 election about an alleged sexual encounter.
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: And just a reminder, there were several cases, both civil and criminal, against Trump ahead of last year's election. But this was the only criminal case to go to trial.
--:-- Michelle Martin: The conviction made Trump the first president to also be a convicted felon.
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: And as far as sentencing goes, the judge ruled that basically because Trump's president, he won't face prison time or other penalties.
--:-- Michelle Martin: But the conviction will remain on his record.
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: OK, the hearing today, what argument for appeal are Trump's lawyers making?
--:-- Michelle Martin: OK, so it's a little wonky, but basically Trump was tried, convicted and sentenced in the New York state court system.
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: His lawyers have tried and failed twice before to get the case moved to federal court essentially hoping it would get dismissed that way.
--:-- Michelle Martin: And they keep citing a specific law that allows federal officials to make such a move if the case involves conduct well in office.
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: But it is yet to work. Remember the hush money payment at the heart of this case occurred before the 2016 election, when Trump was still a candidate.
--:-- Michelle Martin: But now Trump's lawyers are making the argument again, saying that prosecutors during the trial relied on evidence related to Trump's first term, and therefore this law applies.
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: All right. What are the chances that's going to work?
--:-- Michelle Martin: Well, legal experts I talk to say it's a long shot, basically.
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: Here's Jed Sugarman. He's a professor at Boston University School of Law.
--:-- Jed Sugarman: This argument is such a stretch in this particular case. It's a clearly losing argument that any federal judge on the Second Circuit, Republican or Democratic appointee, would and should reject.
--:-- Michelle Martin: But, you know, Trump has also filed an appeal through the state court system.
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: And Sugarman says that is actually where he thinks the strongest possible arguments are.
--:-- Jed Sugarman: Those hearings just haven't happened yet.
--:-- Michelle Martin: All right. So what do you think we're going to find out about today?
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: So today's hearing is in front of a three-judge panel, and they'll have to confer, so there won't be a decision today.
--:-- Michelle Martin: But what we'll really be listening for is what questions the judges ask, if they're skeptical or not, what they're skeptical about.
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: This hearing and the decision will have implications beyond just Trump's case.
--:-- Michelle Martin: If the judges rule in Trump's favor, it could ultimately make it easier to work around the state courts in our judicial system.
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: All right. That's NPR's Kat Lonsdorf in New York. Kat, thanks.
--:-- Kat Lonsdorf: Thank you.
--:-- Michelle Martin: And that's Up First for Wednesday, June 11th.
--:-- A Martinez: I'm A. Martinez.
--:-- Michelle Martin: I'm Michelle Martin. Your next listen is Consider This from NPR.
--:-- A Martinez: We hear it up first, give you the three big stories of the day.
--:-- Michelle Martin: Our Consider This colleagues take a different approach. They dive into a single news story and what it means to you in less than 15 minutes.
--:-- A Martinez: Listen now on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Michelle Martin: Today's episode of Up First was edited by Gigi Dubin, Rafael Nam, Emma Bowman, Lisa Thompson, and Alice Wolfley.
--:-- A Martinez: It was produced by Ziad Butch, Nia Dumas, and Christopher Thomas.
--:-- Michelle Martin: We get engineering support from David Greenberg.
--:-- A Martinez: Our technical director is Carly Strange.
--:-- Michelle Martin: Join us again tomorrow.
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--:-- Michelle Martin: With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities.
--:-- A Martinez: Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash story.
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--:-- A Martinez: And each mattress is designed with specific sleep positions and feel preferences in mind.
--:-- Michelle Martin: Plus, they back it all up with free shipping, easy returns, and a 100-night sleep trial.
--:-- A Martinez: Visit Lisa.com for 25% off mattresses, plus get an extra $50 off with promo code NPR.
--:-- Michelle Martin: That's L-E-E-S-A dot com, promo code NPR.
--:-- A Martinez: This message comes from NPR sponsor Rosetta Stone, an expert in language learning for 30 years.
--:-- Michelle Martin: Right now, NPR listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership to 25 different languages for 50% off.
--:-- A Martinez: Learn more at rosettastone.com slash NPR.
--:-- Michelle Martin: And that's a wrap for today's show.
--:-- A Martinez: Thanks for listening to Up First.
--:-- Michelle Martin: We'll be back tomorrow with more news and analysis.
--:-- A Martinez: I'm A. Martinez.
--:-- Michelle Martin: I'm Michelle Martin.
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