--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Welcome to In Conversation from Apple News Today. I'm Shamita Bassu. Every weekend, we're taking you deeper into the best journalism on Apple News.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Journalist Bob Woodward has been on a streak with his books chronicling the Trump presidency. The first was called Fear. The second was called Rage. The third recounts the chaotic final months of the Trump presidency. This was a time of peril. Peril. That's the title of this last installment.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: In this book, Bob Woodward and his co-author, political reporter Robert Costa, argue that President Trump brought America to the brink of crisis, domestically and internationally, and ushered in what they call one of the most dangerous periods in American history, beginning just days after the 2020 election.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Here's Costa. He has some advisors, Trump, up to his residence in the White House. And we have this in the book. And they're serving pigs-in-a-blanket food that you would eat at a football game watch up in the residence of the White House.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And President Trump's saying to his close advisors and allies in private, where do I find thousands of votes in this state? Where do I find thousands of votes in that state? And that began what was a months-long pressure campaign to try to change an election and change American democracy.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And they write in the book that Trump's actions endangered not only American democracy, but the safety of the country from foreign adversaries.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Here's Woodward. This created a national security crisis. Everything was being observed by the Chinese, the Russians, the Iranians, and they went on alert. They actually thought that the United States might be experiencing a coup or some sort of collapse. They were horrified, and they took us potentially to the brink of some sort of conflict or war.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: I recently sat down with Woodward and Costa, and we started by talking about a revelation from their book that John Eastman, a conservative lawyer working with President Trump's legal team, wrote a memo, a six-point plan, in the last few weeks of Trump's term.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: The goal was to persuade Vice President Mike Pence to overturn the election results on January 6th. And Costa described just how seriously the vice president took this idea.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: He took it very seriously over the course of many weeks during this transition period. And what's important about this Eastman memo authored by conservative lawyer John Eastman is that it adds a new element of understanding to what happened during the insurrection.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: It was not just a storm of people, a mob of people going to the Capitol. January 6th was also the culmination of a pressure campaign, of action, of an attempt to seize power, to advise the vice president of the United States to essentially throw out electors during the certification process on January 6th, 2021.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: It was a legal argument. It was a political argument. On January 4th, 2021, we have this scene of President Trump and John Eastman standing in the Oval Office with Vice President Pence.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And Trump says to Pence, listen to John. Listen to John. This was not just some kind of document circulating in GOP circles. This was something that the president was pressing his own vice president about.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And Vice President Pence wanted to help President Trump. Our reporting bears that out. Ultimately, he decides to certify the election to count the votes.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: But this was a winding decision for him that even included a call with former Vice President Dan Quayle, who had his own experience certifying an election.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And Quayle said to Pence, another Indiana Republican, Mike, you have nothing to do but count the votes.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Yeah, tell us a little bit more about that phone call that he had with Dan Quayle, because that was a really interesting scene in the book.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Dan Quayle has all but disappeared from the American political scene since January 1993 when he certified the election of Bill Clinton and Al Gore against Bush and Quayle.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And he lives in Arizona these days. And our reporting shows in the book – and what a scene it is, two Indiana Republicans getting on the phone.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And Quayle, as a conservative Republican, just like Pence, and Pence says to Quayle based on our reporting, well, there's got to be some way here. There's maybe some fraud going on in Arizona.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: The Trump people are looking into that. And Quayle stops him and says, Mike, I live in Arizona. There's nothing going on here. That's illegal.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And so you had privately, it was Quayle, but also Pence's lawyers, his advisors saying you can't do anything here.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And for Pence, it's a personal, human, emotional struggle. Four years at Donald Trump's side, four years of trying to do his bidding.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: But the Constitution, his lawyers, Dan Quayle, all these forces are telling him you must stop at this line.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And this is new reporting. I mean, does knowledge of this conversation between Pence and Quayle change our understanding of what happened on January 6th?
--:-- Shamita Bassu: I think it does significantly because Quayle was going over it with Pence, quoting the Constitution, quoting the law.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And what the Constitution makes clear is the president of the Senate, who is the vice president, will count the votes of electors from all of the states and then officially, formally certify who is the next president.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: So this is a mechanical process in a way But if the president of the Senate Mike Pence decides gee I confused I going to walk away or accepts any of the argument that the Trump lawyer John Eastman made that there are other electors out there there confusion in the states Pence could have walked away and we would have had potentially a genuine constitutional crisis because the legitimacy of Biden taking office on January 20th would have been in doubt.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And that doubt would have ruptured this process of peaceful transfer of power, which is what people in both parties who are thinking about the Constitution and the responsibilities in a political system where we actually do have peaceful transfer of power.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: We don't have coups. We don't have the military taking over. And so this was in peril, in doubt for a while, but Pence did the right thing and, of course, averted that moment where things could have been hanging by a thread that might have been cut.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Let's talk about the events of January 6th. I mean, for so many of us, we were watching what happened and actually getting a lot of immediate information, I think, through social media.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: What was January 6th like for the people in President Trump's orbit? Your question is so important about the six. And we went into this, like anyone else as reporters, thinking the six seemed to be, in terms of the conventional wisdom, about President Trump idly watching television of the insurrection from his dining room in the Oval Office.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And that was the wave of news reports initially. And when you think about January 6th as just the 6th, it seems almost like a sporadic event and a television event where the president was a passive viewer.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: But when we spent nine months going back and back and deeper and deeper, you realize that just like almost with Watergate, Watergate wasn't about Nixon's resignation in August of 1974.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: It was about the years of activity and the conspiracy in the Nixon world, criminality in 1972's presidential election that led to Watergate, that led to that resignation.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And it's the action beforehand often that's the real story. And that's the case here.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: On the eve of the insurrection, after Pence leaves the White House around 7.30 at night to go home for dinner, Trump stays in the Oval Office and he opens the door out and towards the garden.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And it's a 31-degree freezing cold night, and he can hear the cries of his supporters in the streets on Pennsylvania Avenue.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And the cops were clashing with protesters. And when some of his aides come in, they say, Mr. President, would you like us to close the door? It's freezing in here.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: He says, leave it open. I want to hear my people. They have courage. The lawmakers don't have courage.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And that scene, it's not only chilly in terms of the weather, it's chilly in terms of the reporting.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Even after pressuring Pence, Trump's in that scene looking for other ways, more people to call. How can we change the election? Again, this is a day before the insurrection.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And Trump in the office, according to witnesses, participants there, is transfixed by the mob.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And as Robert said, you know, these are my people. And people in the room are hoping they close the door and Trump is not.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: I mean, this is his connection. And Robert and I talked about this back in 1974 when Nixon was president.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: One of the revelations was that Nixon was so unhinged that he was talking to the pictures of former presidents hung in the White House.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: This is the days before his resignation. Here's Nixon. And he's talking to portraits of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And the emotional equivalent for Donald Trump is the mob, his people out there.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And it's almost like a drug, a narcotic for Trump. You know, your reporting also makes so stark the contrast between what some Republican officials were saying publicly about the election versus what they were saying in private, even to each other.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Can you talk a little bit about that? Well, specifically the Republican leaders, Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate, Kevin McCarthy, the Republican leader in the House of Representatives.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And what you see from our reporting that they both held and hold Trump in a certain amount of disdain.
--:-- Robert Costa: Well, it boils down to this. Mitch McConnell is the majority leader, and he disdains President Trump based on our reporting.
--:-- Robert Costa: And we found out through the course of our work that he has a favorite joke that he tells in the cloakroom.
--:-- Robert Costa: And it goes like this. He'll be sitting around with senators in the cloakroom, and he'll go, do you remember that former Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, he called President Trump a moron and then denied it?
--:-- Robert Costa: And people will go, yes, we remember that. We remember that. Well, do you know why he was able to deny it?
--:-- Robert Costa: And they'll go, no, we don't know why. And he goes, because he called him an effing moron.
--:-- Robert Costa: Now, he used the real word, but that just shows you that in the Republican cloakroom, they're making jokes about President Trump.
--:-- Robert Costa: Yet McConnell is the same man in this book who, even though he cracks jokes about President Trump, when it comes time to the transition period, he needs President Trump to not erupt.
--:-- Robert Costa: He's trying to calm him from disrupting those elections in Georgia.
--:-- Robert Costa: So he has a back channel message to Biden. Don't call me because I don't want to make President Trump angry.
--:-- Robert Costa: And that the complication in this book It a story that has portraits with many sides McConnell like Trump but at the same time he often needs Trump to keep power
--:-- Shamita Bassu: I just curious whether anyone whether you expect any of these Republican lawmakers who are still publicly supporting Trump to ever change their tune publicly going forward.
--:-- Robert Costa: The answer to that is their actions. And look at Senator Lindsey Graham.
--:-- Robert Costa: He's such a prism for the Republican Party, a golf partner with President Trump is taken by President Trump personally.
--:-- Robert Costa: He really finds President Trump to be an enjoyable confidant, and they have a friendly, almost chummy relationship.
--:-- Robert Costa: But as we show in the book, Graham knows that the president's claims about election fraud are false.
--:-- Robert Costa: Graham and his advisors, including Lee Holmes, his Judiciary Committee advisor, worked to try to figure out whether there was evidence or not, as Bob said.
--:-- Robert Costa: And knowing that, Graham still is working with Trump now to try to get him rehabilitated politically to come back in 2024.
--:-- Robert Costa: In part, that's because Graham likes Trump personally, but it's more nuanced than that.
--:-- Robert Costa: Graham and so many other Republicans right now see Trump as the political figure, the leader who has political capital.
--:-- Robert Costa: I remember covering the 2012 presidential election when Mitt Romney was the candidate, and Republicans, when he lost, would pull me aside and say, I don't think we can ever win again.
--:-- Robert Costa: This country is changing too fast. States like Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are blue. I don't see a path back.
--:-- Robert Costa: And Trump seized history's clock in 2016 and found a way with his populist message, his incendiary rhetoric on immigration, along with so many other things he did to the extreme in terms of his policies and proposals.
--:-- Robert Costa: He put together a new coalition in some of these states where Republicans felt they were all but gone, never to come back.
--:-- Robert Costa: And so as much as so many of them disdain him, despise him, think he's way out there to the point of being in mental decline.
--:-- Robert Costa: They still see him as a source of power for the party and for themselves.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: You know, Bob, you mentioned the phrase constitutional crisis earlier, but I think a lot of people would argue that we're heading toward another one with our next election, with our next major presidential election.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Robert, we're seeing efforts led by people like Steve Bannon and others to reshape the GOP at the local level.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: People who are still claiming that the election was stolen from Trump are becoming poll workers and county clerks.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: How do you see us heading into the next election? What does it mean for a democratic system that these changes are taking place?
--:-- Robert Costa: Well, as a reporter, my approach is always to not turn my head away, to not avert the gaze to what's actually happening.
--:-- Robert Costa: And what you see is exactly what you laid out. And we document this in the book.
--:-- Robert Costa: President Trump is not going away like Nixon went away in 74, going on the helicopter back to California.
--:-- Robert Costa: He's out there having rallies. And his supporters out there in all these states, especially where there's a lot of contention over the election result, they are rallying to his side.
--:-- Robert Costa: And not only rallying to his side in terms of attending an event, but they're trying to get elected to positions as secretaries of state in various states, as local election officials.
--:-- Robert Costa: And one quote that really stands out in the book is, it's near the end, and Brad Parscale, Trump's former campaign manager, says in July of 2021 privately to others that, President Trump had an army, an army for Trump.
--:-- Robert Costa: He wants that back. And when he runs again, it will be for vengeance. That's no joke. That's reporting. That's what's happening.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: One of the big revelations in the book Peril is the story of the top U.S. military officer, General Mark Milley, and a phone call he made to his counterpart in China.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: It was just days before the 2020 election, and there was growing fear in Beijing that President Trump would do something erratic in an effort to hold on to power.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: General Milley picked up the phone to assure China the United States was not about to launch a surprise attack.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Since the details of this phone call came to light, several Republicans have been vocal in their criticism of Milley, accusing the general of undermining the commander-in-chief and considering sharing classified information with a foreign adversary.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: This week, General Milley was called to testify on Capitol Hill.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: The specific purpose of the October and January calls were generated by concerning intelligence, which caused us to believe the Chinese were worried about an attack on them by the United States.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: I know, I am certain that President Trump did not intend to attack the Chinese.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And it is my directed responsibility, and it was my directed responsibility by the secretary, to convey that intent to the Chinese.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: My task at that time was to de-escalate.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Woodward describes what led to that phone call. This is October 30th of last year, four days before the presidential election.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: General Milley, who's the top military officer, the chief advisor to the president on military matters, gets intelligence that the Chinese think we, the United States, are going to attack them.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: This is a nightmare world for somebody in the military because, as we quote Milley telling senior staff, that China in this condition could make a first move, could launch a Pearl Harbor.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: They think we're going to attack them. This is a tinderbox in the national security world.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Miscommunications are often the seeds of war So Milley contacts General Lee who the head of the military in China and he wants to make it seem like kind of a normal call.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And then he finally gets to the point, General Lee, I want to assure you that the American government is stable and everything is going to be okay.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: We are not going to attack or conduct any kinetic operations against you.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: General Lee, you and I have known each other now for five years. If we're going to attack, I'm going to call you ahead of time.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: It's not going to be a surprise. If there was a war or conflict of some kind between the United States and China, there's going to be a buildup. like there always has been in history.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And what he's saying, it's not going to tip off the Chinese if we're going to attack.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: He said, if there's tension that will lead to war, we're going to be communicating, talking to each other regularly.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And then he says, so this is not one of those times. It's going to be okay. We're not going to have a fight.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Finally, General Lee says, OK, I take you at your word.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Some of your reporting has led to some criticism coming from conservative voices, GOP voices, criticism of Milley and his actions and saying that he overstepped the boundaries of his role and undermined the president as commander in chief.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Do they have a point? Put yourself in General Milley's shoes. This is a crisis. I somehow have to persuade my contact, somebody who's known for five years in China, who's his equivalent.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: We found no evidence at all that General Milley did anything other than protect the country.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: I'm curious to hear from both of you. How do you square the importance of entering this reporting into the public record with the importance of sharing this information at the right time when it can have the most impact?
--:-- Bob Woodward: Well, Bob Woodward and I worked very hard to get this full story over the course of a very tight time period, about nine months.
--:-- Bob Woodward: And we were working on this story until the absolute latest deadline in late July.
--:-- Bob Woodward: All of these threads on January 6th on the Trump White House, on the Biden White House, have been complicated, challenging in terms of the reporting.
--:-- Bob Woodward: And it was important for us to spend as much time as possible to do the reporting.
--:-- Bob Woodward: And that's what the benefit of doing a book is. You have the luxury of time to build the reporting as much as possible.
--:-- Bob Woodward: We don't report for impact, quite frankly. That's not our job.
--:-- Bob Woodward: Our job is to find out what we call the best obtainable version of the truth.
--:-- Bob Woodward: And in this case, some of the final interviews were conducted in July, and the book comes out two months later, which is a fast-track pace, believe me.
--:-- Bob Woodward: Often it takes six months or a year after a book is completed.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Robert, we're seeing efforts led by people like Steve Bannon and others to reshape the GOP at the local level.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: People who are still claiming that the election was stolen from Trump are becoming poll workers and county clerks.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: How do you see us heading into the next election? What does it mean for a democratic system that these changes are taking place?
--:-- Robert Costa: Well, as a reporter, my approach is always to not turn my head away, to not avert the gaze to what's actually happening.
--:-- Robert Costa: And what you see is exactly what you laid out. And we document this in the book.
--:-- Robert Costa: President Trump is not going away like Nixon went away in 74, going on the helicopter back to California.
--:-- Robert Costa: He's out there having rallies. And his supporters out there in all these states, especially where there's a lot of contention over the election result, they are rallying to his side.
--:-- Robert Costa: And not only rallying to his side in terms of attending an event, but they're trying to get elected to positions as secretaries of state in various states, as local election officials.
--:-- Robert Costa: And one quote that really stands out in the book is, it's near the end, and Brad Parscale, Trump's former campaign manager, says in July of 2021 privately to others that, President Trump had an army, an army for Trump.
--:-- Robert Costa: He wants that back. And when he runs again, it will be for vengeance. That's no joke. That's reporting. That's what's happening.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Robert, we're seeing efforts led by people like Steve Bannon and others to reshape the GOP at the local level.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: People who are still claiming that the election was stolen from Trump are becoming poll workers and county clerks.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: How do you see us heading into the next election? What does it mean for a democratic system that these changes are taking place?
--:-- Robert Costa: Well, as a reporter, my approach is always to not turn my head away, to not avert the gaze to what's actually happening.
--:-- Robert Costa: And what you see is exactly what you laid out. And we document this in the book.
--:-- Robert Costa: President Trump is not going away like Nixon went away in 74, going on the helicopter back to California.
--:-- Robert Costa: He's out there having rallies. And his supporters out there in all these states, especially where there's a lot of contention over the election result, they are rallying to his side.
--:-- Robert Costa: And not only rallying to his side in terms of attending an event, but they're trying to get elected to positions as secretaries of state in various states, as local election officials.
--:-- Robert Costa: And one quote that really stands out in the book is, it's near the end, and Brad Parscale, Trump's former campaign manager, says in July of 2021 privately to others that, President Trump had an army, an army for Trump.
--:-- Robert Costa: He wants that back. And when he runs again, it will be for vengeance. That's no joke. That's reporting. That's what's happening.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: One of the big revelations in the book Peril is the story of the top U.S. military officer, General Mark Milley, and a phone call he made to his counterpart in China.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: It was just days before the 2020 election, and there was growing fear in Beijing that President Trump would do something erratic in an effort to hold on to power.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: General Milley picked up the phone to assure China the United States was not about to launch a surprise attack.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Since the details of this phone call came to light, several Republicans have been vocal in their criticism of Milley, accusing the general of undermining the commander-in-chief and considering sharing classified information with a foreign adversary.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: This week, General Milley was called to testify on Capitol Hill.
--:-- Bob Woodward: This is a crisis. I somehow have to persuade my contact, somebody who's known for five years in China, who's his equivalent.
--:-- Bob Woodward: We found no evidence at all that General Milley did anything other than protect the country.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: I'm curious to hear from both of you. How do you square the importance of entering this reporting into the public record with the importance of sharing this information at the right time when it can have the most impact?
--:-- Bob Woodward: Well, Bob Woodward and I worked very hard to get this full story over the course of a very tight time period, about nine months.
--:-- Bob Woodward: And we were working on this story until the absolute latest deadline in late July.
--:-- Bob Woodward: All of these threads on January 6th on the Trump White House, on the Biden White House, have been complicated, challenging in terms of the reporting.
--:-- Bob Woodward: And it was important for us to spend as much time as possible to do the reporting.
--:-- Bob Woodward: And that's what the benefit of doing a book is. You have the luxury of time to build the reporting as much as possible.
--:-- Bob Woodward: We don't report for impact, quite frankly. That's not our job.
--:-- Bob Woodward: Our job is to find out what we call the best obtainable version of the truth.
--:-- Bob Woodward: And in this case, some of the final interviews were conducted in July, and the book comes out two months later, which is a fast-track pace, believe me.
--:-- Bob Woodward: Often it takes six months or a year after a book is completed.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Robert, we're seeing efforts led by people like Steve Bannon and others to reshape the GOP at the local level.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: People who are still claiming that the election was stolen from Trump are becoming poll workers and county clerks.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: How do you see us heading into the next election? What does it mean for a democratic system that these changes are taking place?
--:-- Robert Costa: Well, as a reporter, my approach is always to not turn my head away, to not avert the gaze to what's actually happening.
--:-- Robert Costa: And what you see is exactly what you laid out. And we document this in the book.
--:-- Robert Costa: President Trump is not going away like Nixon went away in 74, going on the helicopter back to California.
--:-- Robert Costa: He's out there having rallies. And his supporters out there in all these states, especially where there's a lot of contention over the election result, they are rallying to his side.
--:-- Robert Costa: And not only rallying to his side in terms of attending an event, but they're trying to get elected to positions as secretaries of state in various states, as local election officials.
--:-- Robert Costa: And one quote that really stands out in the book is, it's near the end, and Brad Parscale, Trump's former campaign manager, says in July of 2021 privately to others that, President Trump had an army, an army for Trump.
--:-- Robert Costa: He wants that back. And when he runs again, it will be for vengeance. That's no joke. That's reporting. That's what's happening.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Robert, we're seeing efforts led by people like Steve Bannon and others to reshape the GOP at the local level.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: People who are still claiming that the election was stolen from Trump are becoming poll workers and county clerks.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: How do you see us heading into the next election? What does it mean for a democratic system that these changes are taking place?
--:-- Robert Costa: Well, as a reporter, my approach is always to not turn my head away, to not avert the gaze to what's actually happening.
--:-- Robert Costa: And what you see is exactly what you laid out. And we document this in the book.
--:-- Robert Costa: President Trump is not going away like Nixon went away in 74, going on the helicopter back to California.
--:-- Robert Costa: He's out there having rallies. And his supporters out there in all these states, especially where there's a lot of contention over the election result, they are rallying to his side.
--:-- Robert Costa: And not only rallying to his side in terms of attending an event, but they're trying to get elected to positions as secretaries of state in various states, as local election officials.
--:-- Robert Costa: And one quote that really stands out in the book is, it's near the end, and Brad Parscale, Trump's former campaign manager, says in July of 2021 privately to others that, President Trump had an army, an army for Trump.
--:-- Robert Costa: He wants that back. And when he runs again, it will be for vengeance. That's no joke. That's reporting. That's what's happening.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: One of the big revelations in the book Peril is the story of the top U.S. military officer, General Mark Milley, and a phone call he made to his counterpart in China.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: It was just days before the 2020 election, and there was growing fear in Beijing that President Trump would do something erratic in an effort to hold on to power.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: General Milley picked up the phone to assure China the United States was not about to launch a surprise attack.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Since the details of this phone call came to light, several Republicans have been vocal in their criticism of Milley, accusing the general of undermining the commander-in-chief and considering sharing classified information with a foreign adversary.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: This week, General Milley was called to testify on Capitol Hill.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: The specific purpose of the October and January calls were generated by concerning intelligence, which caused us to believe the Chinese were worried about an attack on them by the United States.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: I know, I am certain that President Trump did not intend to attack the Chinese.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And it is my directed responsibility, and it was my directed responsibility by the secretary, to convey that intent to the Chinese.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: My task at that time was to de-escalate.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Woodward describes what led to that phone call. This is October 30th of last year, four days before the presidential election.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: General Milley, who's the top military officer, the chief advisor to the president on military matters, gets intelligence that the Chinese think we, the United States, are going to attack them.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: This is a nightmare world for somebody in the military because, as we quote Milley telling senior staff, that China in this condition could make a first move, could launch a Pearl Harbor.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: They think we're going to attack them. This is a tinderbox in the national security world.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Miscommunications are often the seeds of war So Milley contacts General Lee who the head of the military in China and he wants to make it seem like kind of a normal call.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And then he finally gets to the point, General Lee, I want to assure you that the American government is stable and everything is going to be okay.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: We are not going to attack or conduct any kinetic operations against you.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: General Lee, you and I have known each other now for five years. If we're going to attack, I'm going to call you ahead of time.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: It's not going to be a surprise. If there was a war or conflict of some kind between the United States and China, there's going to be a buildup. like there always has been in history.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And what he's saying, it's not going to tip off the Chinese if we're going to attack.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: He said, if there's tension that will lead to war, we're going to be communicating, talking to each other regularly.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: And then he says, so this is not one of those times. It's going to be okay. We're not going to have a fight.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Finally, General Lee says, OK, I take you at your word.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Some of your reporting has led to some criticism coming from conservative voices, GOP voices, criticism of Milley and his actions and saying that he overstepped the boundaries of his role and undermined the president as commander in chief.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Do they have a point? Put yourself in General Milley's shoes. This is a crisis. I somehow have to persuade my contact, somebody who's known for five years in China, who's his equivalent.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: We found no evidence at all that General Milley did anything other than protect the country.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: I'm curious to hear from both of you. How do you square the importance of entering this reporting into the public record with the importance of sharing this information at the right time when it can have the most impact?
--:-- Bob Woodward: Well, Bob Woodward and I worked very hard to get this full story over the course of a very tight time period, about nine months.
--:-- Bob Woodward: And we were working on this story until the absolute latest deadline in late July.
--:-- Bob Woodward: All of these threads on January 6th on the Trump White House, on the Biden White House, have been complicated, challenging in terms of the reporting.
--:-- Bob Woodward: And it was important for us to spend as much time as possible to do the reporting.
--:-- Bob Woodward: And that's what the benefit of doing a book is. You have the luxury of time to build the reporting as much as possible.
--:-- Bob Woodward: We don't report for impact, quite frankly. That's not our job.
--:-- Bob Woodward: Our job is to find out what we call the best obtainable version of the truth.
--:-- Bob Woodward: And in this case, some of the final interviews were conducted in July, and the book comes out two months later, which is a fast-track pace, believe me.
--:-- Bob Woodward: Often it takes six months or a year after a book is completed.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: Robert, we're seeing efforts led by people like Steve Bannon and others to reshape the GOP at the local level.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: People who are still claiming that the election was stolen from Trump are becoming poll workers and county clerks.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: How do you see us heading into the next election? What does it mean for a democratic system that these changes are taking place?
--:-- Robert Costa: Well, as a reporter, my approach is always to not turn my head away, to not avert the gaze to what's actually happening.
--:-- Robert Costa: And what you see is exactly what you laid out. And we document this in the book.
--:-- Robert Costa: President Trump is not going away like Nixon went away in 74, going on the helicopter back to California.
--:-- Robert Costa: He's out there having rallies. And his supporters out there in all these states, especially where there's a lot of contention over the election result, they are rallying to his side.
--:-- Robert Costa: And not only rallying to his side in terms of attending an event, but they're trying to get elected to positions as secretaries of state in various states, as local election officials.
--:-- Robert Costa: And one quote that really stands out in the book is, it's near the end, and Brad Parscale, Trump's former campaign manager, says in July of 2021 privately to others that, President Trump had an army, an army for Trump.
--:-- Robert Costa: He wants that back. And when he runs again, it will be for vengeance. That's no joke. That's reporting. That's what's happening.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: One of the big revelations in the book Peril is the story of the top U.S. military officer, General Mark Milley, and a phone call he made to his counterpart in China.
--:-- Shamita Bassu: It was just days before the 2020 election, and there was
