--:-- Shamitha Basu: This is In Conversation from Apple News Today. I'm Shamitha Basu. This week, we sat down with the subject of a recent profile in Sports Illustrated, Olympic athlete Lolo Jones.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Lolo Jones is a lot of things. She's a track and field star, a bobsledder, a reality TV personality. She's one of very few athletes who's competed in both the summer and winter Olympic Games.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: She won't be in Tokyo this year. She's got her eyes set on qualifying for the 2022 bobsled team. That would mean returning to Beijing, the site of her very first Olympic Games in 2008.
--:-- Lolo Jones: She was the favorite to take home the gold that year, but instead she suffered a crushing loss in the 100-meter hurdles.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: As she says, that loss propelled her to keep moving and keep redefining success for herself. The Sports Illustrated profile is called Lolo Jones's Eternal Reinvention. It was written by Julie Kliegman.
--:-- Lolo Jones: You can read and listen to it on Apple News+.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: Kliegman writes about how Jones has been able to pivot and find success in many different and unlikely fields. But Kliegman also says Jones' time in the spotlight had its drawbacks. She suffered a lot of scrutiny in the media, often intense, a lot of it negative.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: In my conversation with Lolo Jones, we started by talking about her experience in 2008. I thought maybe we could go back to your first Olympics and start there.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Oh, nice. I'm going to take the summary right from your Twitter bio because I liked it and I thought it was really succinct. You wrote, quote, in 2008, I was one hurdle away from Olympic gold. I hit a hurdle that changed it all.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: Yeah. What happened that year, Lolo?
--:-- Lolo Jones: I went to my first Olympic Games and I kind of had a whirlwind year. I went from no one even knowing who I was, not pegged to make the Olympic team, to becoming not only an Olympic athlete, but the fastest in the world and the spotlight on me.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so I go to Beijing. Everything is going right on track. I'm having personal bests in the semifinals. I'm running really smoothly. People are like, oh my gosh, she's on pace to break the Olympic record.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So I'm in the race and I was having a good race. Like I knew I was winning the race and the hurdles just started coming up incredibly fast.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And then I hit a hurdle and I don't hit a lot of hurdles. Like up to that point, I probably had hit a total of three hurdles in the course of my career. And we're talking about middle school, high school, college.
--:-- Lolo Jones: In the moment I was just okay, like let's just try to find a way to finish this race, see if we can still squeak out a bronze medal.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And when I crossed the finish line, that's when I realized how bad the damage was done. And I looked up and I saw that I got seventh and I was utterly devastated.
--:-- Lolo Jones: I mean this is everything you work for for years and I just collapsed to the track and I was holding back tears and just a wave of frustration and I pounded the track.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And then I just felt like God's peace in me and just say, but you're here. And four years ago, you were sitting at home watching the Olympics and you were frustrated because you weren't at the Olympics and now you're here.
--:-- Lolo Jones: The biggest failure in my life turning into one of the most peaceful moments. And I used that failure for many years.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: Your reaction to that loss in 2008, and I mean, your immediate reaction to it, which was documented, is now used as an example in media training sessions for Olympic athletes, right?
--:-- Lolo Jones: In terms of how to lose graciously. Correct. Yeah.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: And I didn't even know that until I was actually doing media training for another Olympics and they showed that race.
--:-- Lolo Jones: I was like, oh, this is so awkward. Oh, wow. Oh, I didn't realize that you learned it on the spotlight that.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Other Olympians have told me that too. They're like, we watched your post-race interview. So that meant a lot to have other athletes tell me that.
--:-- Lolo Jones: It's funny because if you compare that to like, I've been on reality TV shows and people were like, you're such a classless loser.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And then it's like, yeah, but then why is the Olympics showing my videos on how to lose?
--:-- Shamitha Basu: You have a book out among many things that you're busy with. It's called Over It, How to Face Life's Hurdles with Grit, Hustle and Grace.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Yeah. So I started writing it during the pandemic. You know, I was training for my last Olympics and then I didn't know if they were going to get canceled or shut down.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And then I was just stuck in my house. I didn't see another human being for over a month.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so, yeah, I had a lot of time on my hands and I thought it was a good time to kind of dive back into, you know, my Olympic experiences and what I've learned over my biggest failures and how that has helped put me on a path to break history and records.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: You been very open about your mental health after 2008 and throughout. I mean, can you talk a little bit about just the incredible emotional whiplash of before the competition, then making it to 2008 and truly everything that comes after it?
--:-- Lolo Jones: Because I think so much of what we talk about with athletes is the buildup to the competition. And there's so much that comes after, whether you've lost or won.
--:-- Lolo Jones: My Olympic tournaments have experienced different kind of attacks on me mentally. So in 2008, I actually, afterwards, I struggled with PTSD because I kept replaying the moment in my head.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Even though I had peace about, okay, this happened, I processed it, I still would relive the moment. And I didn't think athletes could get PTSD.
--:-- Lolo Jones: I thought only soldiers in the battlefield could get it. I didn't know anyone could get it from any traumatic event that's happened to them.
--:-- Lolo Jones: For me, I was like, I'm just an athlete. That's silly. But, you know, I lost the Olympics in front of millions of people.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So I had people stopping me in the grocery store. I had people, you know, all over like sending me mail and like reaching out to me.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so I would just replay that event, like what I should have done differently. Oh, if I just would have like did this instead of that, you know?
--:-- Shamitha Basu: And then in the London Olympics, I got it completely different. I got attacked in the press and also from some of my teammates.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so I was dealing with online bullying or trolls or just those kinds of attacks. Social media was just getting started in 2008.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So people weren't that rude on there. Like Twitter had just started. Well, now in London 2012, You had Instagram and Twitter and people were very comfortable with saying more rude things.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So that affected my mental state in a completely different mannerism. I mean, so much of this mental health conversation ties into the media.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So how can we rethink this relationship between athletes and the media? What's best for the athletes?
--:-- Lolo Jones: It's really tough because in some sporting events, we really rely heavily on the media to help us. Like track and field without the media is dead.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So I try to be as open as I can with the media because they're helping promote our track meet.
--:-- Lolo Jones: But in the same essence, I mean, I've had stories written about me two days before I competed in the Olympics where I was completely ripped apart.
--:-- Lolo Jones: I understand that sensationalizing headlines get more clicks, but that would be what I would just hope that the media changes is the just aggressive headlines.
--:-- Lolo Jones: You could say something and it's just like they'll spin it away just to get readers to read it.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And it's just very frustrating because I'll give an example. I did a show with Kevin Hart.
--:-- Lolo Jones: He has a thing where he goes in the cold tub with an athlete and interviews the athlete. And so we were just making jokes about like how I've decided to wait until I'm married to have sex.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And I made a joke. I said, I kind of regret that because now no one wants to date me. Well, then headlines everywhere were like, Lolo made a mistake.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Like they made it spin it in a bad way. And it was totally me and Kevin Hart just joking around like in a very nice way about it.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And they made it seem like I totally regretted my rescission, which I don't at all. And so it's just clickbait.
--:-- Lolo Jones: It's what, you know, they want to do for headlines to get readers to click. And then it just spins everything that the person is saying.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: And I mean, this is a hallmark of celebrity, which is not necessarily what athletes sign up for. Right.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So how can athletes reclaim their own narratives? If I had the key to that, that would save me a lot of stress.
--:-- Lolo Jones: They can write a book, perhaps write a memoir. Exactly. Then that's what it comes down to.
--:-- Lolo Jones: The number one question I'm being getting is why did I write this book? And I wrote this book to provide inspiration.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And I also wrote it because I've had so much bad press and so much negativity. It's starting to overwhelm me.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So I was like, you know what? You guys want to really know what happened. Here's what really happened.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And here's the actual tea from the person that lived in these shoes. The person that hit the hurdle. And this is what went on behind the closed doors.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So now people will have that perspective. And you know, you can reclaim your power as well by social media.
--:-- Lolo Jones: That's why I'm very active on my social media. But that also opens you up to online trolls as well.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: You were recently profiled in Sports Illustrated by Julie Kliegman. And the piece was called Lolo Jones's Eternal Reinvention.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And you posted a link to it on Facebook. And you said that you never read stuff about yourself, but you read this one.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Can you explain your reaction to her piece?
--:-- Lolo Jones: Yeah. So at first I actually had my friend read the article because I was just like, just let me know if it's bad because if it's bad I'm not going to read it and I'm not going to talk about it.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Because I'm so used to just getting bad press at this point I'm kind of shell-shocked.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so she's like no it's good you should check it out and so when I read it then I was able to I guess really realize I'm always working a lot like training for one Olympics is hard but I went on to train for two Olympics at the same time.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Like I always like non working like I barely have any free time.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And in the article she said something about like you know because I grew up poor that she just wondering if I worked so hard to just make sure I never returned to that state.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And I thought it was a valid point because I am very afraid that, you know, I'll go back to a life of poverty because I was just so overwhelmed in that growing up.
--:-- Lolo Jones: You know, I was shoplifting in elementary and I was shoplifting TV dinners so that I would have enough food to eat.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So we would go to food banks a lot, food pantries to pick up free food. We were on welfare.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so like the normal track season for a professional hurdler, you run about 20 or 30 races. One year I ran 60 races so that I can make sure I had enough money.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So yeah, so that stood out for me. And I was like, okay, well, maybe I need to like learn to have more of a balance, you know?
--:-- Lolo Jones: Yes. I think balance is sort of the word of the moment, right?
--:-- Lolo Jones: But at the end of the day, like real financial concerns can't be ignored.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And I think a lot of people don't realize they think that sports is really lucrative, right?
--:-- Lolo Jones: Yeah, well, especially for Olympic athletes. And that's one of the chapters I write about in my book, how Olympians are ridiculously poor, and that 50% of US athletes that will go on to the Olympics make under $15,000 a year with all their combined income resources.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So I really take a huge dive into Olympics payment and how the Olympics is a multi-billion dollar basically corporation that essentially comes off as a charity, but they're not because they don't really give as much money back to the athletes and the talent that is producing these Olympic games.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so needless to say, I'll probably never get a job at the International Olympic Committee.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: Let's talk about your stints on reality TV.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Yeah. So I've done a ton of stints on reality TV shows.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Lately, it's been perceived as, oh, she's like wanting attention.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And in my book, I'm like, if you go back and you look at every reality show I've signed up for, either I was hurt and injured and I couldn't compete that year.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So I was literally essentially robbed of a whole year of income or a contract was up.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Dancing with the Stars in 2014, my shoe deal was up. So I went on that show just to make sure that I would have enough money to train for another Olympic cycle.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Celebrity Big Brother, I was injured and two contracts were up that year.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Then you had MTV The Challenge. The pandemic hit. I wasn't able to run one track meet and earned one dollar on the track.
--:-- Lolo Jones: All of my money essentially was ripped away. Every athlete I know was not able to make one dollar when the pandemic hit.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And it's not like we can file for unemployment like most people because we have such a rare job.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So so I was like, OK, let me just go on that show. And so, you know, I'm not married. I don't have a husband.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And, you know, I pay all of my bills and I actually take care of my family sometimes.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So I have to be the financial breadwinner. And if I have to go on a crummy reality TV show so that I can make another Olympic push, I'm all for it.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: Are there other things that you're also interested in doing that relate to sort of your financial goals in being able to fuel your career?
--:-- Lolo Jones: The problem is, like, let's say, you know, I have an economics degree. Let's say I wanted to go get a job in that field.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Most of the time would be a nine to five job where I'd be sitting behind a desk.
--:-- Lolo Jones: It would take up many, many hours. And then that would not allow me the ability to train.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Whereas if you do like a reality show, you're only on the show for two weeks to a month, which usually is filmed in my off season.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So I can go film that show and then I can go back to just training full time.
--:-- Lolo Jones: The biggest leap I ever made as an athlete was when I was able to quit. I had two part time jobs and I was OK.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Like I was getting fifth through eighth place in every race. But it wasn't until I started to make enough money running and quit those jobs.
--:-- Lolo Jones: That's when I was really able to go from an OK hurdler to the best in the world, because now my focus was only on running.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: Another major reinvention point for you was when you joined the U.S. bobsledding team in 2012.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Why did you make this decision to take on a whole new sport?
--:-- Lolo Jones: Well, even before the London Olympics, I had spine surgery and I thought my career was over and they found a birth defect in me.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so a year out, I had to basically go back from learning to walk to, you know, running to becoming the best hurdle in the world.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Everybody's like, there's no way she's going to make this Olympic team. Absolutely no way after spine surgery.
--:-- Lolo Jones: I was one of the last people to enter into the Olympic trials. I was able to get the last spot to qualify for the Olympic team.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So I got third and then I go over to the London Olympics and fight through the rounds.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And then I get fourth at the London Olympics. And I was really proud of getting fourth because I was like, man, like a year ago, I had spine surgery and I could barely walk.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And I was so happy. And then as soon as I left the track, the media destroyed me.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Teammates, everyone was like, there's so much attention on her. The media was like, calling me a flop.
--:-- Lolo Jones: My at mentions on Twitter were like, she's a failure. She just give up all her sponsorships.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And basically fourth place wasn't good enough for everybody after everything I overcame.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so I was so frustrated by that I just went home and I sat on my couch and for a month I left my house and I just watched TV and I was absolutely 100 depressed.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And I knew I wanted to compete still but I just didn't want to run again. Like I didn't want to go back to the sport of track and field because I just felt like it kept ripping my heart out.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so you know I grew up watching the movie Cool Runnings.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so I remembered that. And I you know bobsled is such an under the radar sport.
--:-- Lolo Jones: There's not a lot of viewership on it. And so I felt like I could go to bobsled and kind of hide out and just compete as an athlete.
--:-- Lolo Jones: There would be no pressure. There would be no spotlight. And essentially, that's what I was able to do for a little bit.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: One thing that I keep hearing about when we talk about Olympic athletes who are in their late 30s and are deemed at the end of their career. Right.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And it's such an unusual thing to to be expected to shift careers at that early age.
--:-- Lolo Jones: What is it like for you to sort of be at this point where you're hoping to head to 2022?
--:-- Lolo Jones: And what are you eyeing next?
--:-- Lolo Jones: Well, I'm just excited because I am an older athlete. And I think that that provides a lot of inspiration because the Olympics is great because every Olympics they usher in these new younger athletes.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And it's so inspiring. And they bring that new energy to the Olympics. But, man, to see an older athlete still doing it after all these years.
--:-- Lolo Jones: I mean, I wake up and I'm like, man, do I already have arthritis? How am I feeling today? How's my body doing today?
--:-- Lolo Jones: You know, just like it's really inspiring to just still be in the game and still be able to compete with these younger athletes.
--:-- Lolo Jones: But what gave me the most energy about staying in this game is the summer and winter Olympics have never been held in the same place ever.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so my first Olympics were in Beijing and the winter Olympics in 2022 are going to be in Beijing.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So I would have the rare opportunity if I make the team to go back and redeem myself from losing Olympic gold.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And I just am so excited by that, that it just shook off all the age. I feel like I'm in my 20s now because I'm ready to cross this finish line.
--:-- Lolo Jones: I'm ready to redeem myself and I'm ready to inspire a world that, you know, one failure is not going to break you.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: These games are going to be really hard on athletes because they have to navigate such tough COVID protocols.
--:-- Lolo Jones: They won't have fans cheering them on. And not only that, they won't have their friends and family to support them there in the venues.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so they're dealing with a lot of different changes. I think some sports will fare better than others because some sports don't always sell out crowds.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Like I've been to many track meets where the stadium is half empty or there's only a few people in the stands and you're having to get that energy up and still perform regardless.
--:-- Lolo Jones: I think Olympic trials for a lot of the athletes were a taste of that because many of the Olympic trials were not sold out and some had just a handful of fans.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So I think that they know that the stakes, it's the Olympics, it's the highest competition for many of them.
--:-- Lolo Jones: So I think they'll be able to push that all out. I think when it's going to get hard is after they run their races and they win the medals or they don't win the medals and they need their support system to just help talk them through that.
--:-- Lolo Jones: That's going to be really tough, you know, not being able to hug your family, whether it's for a victory hug or whether it's for a hug to just wipe away the tears after a frustrating competition.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: As a three-time Olympian who has seen plenty of highs and lows, what is your advice to athletes on how to be gracious with themselves no matter what happens?
--:-- Lolo Jones: You know, everybody says it's just be proud that you're an Olympian, but I would say be proud of your effort because at the end of the day, I know that no matter if I never medal in any Olympics, I did everything in my power to medal.
--:-- Lolo Jones: I did the extra abs. I did the workouts. I ate really healthy. I focused as much as I could on improving every single day.
--:-- Lolo Jones: And so when they go out there and compete and they put their heart on the line, whether they come up short or whether they get a medal, that they should be incredibly proud of their effort because that's at the end of the day, which will bring them tremendous amount a peace.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: Lolo Jones, it's been so nice talking with you. Thank you so much for your time.
--:-- Lolo Jones: Thank you for having me. And it was lovely to be here.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: Lolo Jones is co-hosting Peacock's On Her Turf at the Olympics. It's the first NBC Olympics show dedicated to covering women's sports.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: You can watch it on Peacock starting this weekend.
--:-- Shamitha Basu: Julie Kliegman's profile of Lolo Jones for Sports Illustrated is available for Apple News Plus subscribers. iPhone users can subscribe in the Apple News app.
