--:-- Ryan Hanley: In the beginning, though, when I was selling BOR, when I started doing it, I didn't want to talk about price. Because it was like, that's beneath me.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'm not going to discuss.
--:-- Nick Aube: Yeah. Premium? Like, are you kidding me? Like, if you want somebody to talk premium, that guy will quote you all day long. Like, I couldn't get myself to do it. But as I went through it over the years, and then ultimately, I see believing, you know, and doing what I'm doing now, and actually getting to go talk with people, hire other coaches, and really dissect the process. It's like, holy shit, that's all we should be talking about in the sales process. Because if you think about it, that's their number one problem we were talking about earlier, right?
--:-- [Transition to podcast intro]
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today we have a tremendous episode for you, a conversation with Nick Obie, the founder of Producer Systems, a BOR strategist, a producer coach, a longtime producer in the insurance industry and somebody who I think has a very practical and straightforward approach to helping customers, particularly in the middle market, as we work through the BOR process.
--:-- Now, one of the things that I find incredibly interesting is that even though I have a bunch of friends, people I really respect who work through BORs and use BOR related systems to bring in new clients and help grow their own book of business as well as just be value providers to their communities, it's a process I've never really used that much of. I've never engaged in a kind of strategic BOR initiative. I've taken BORs. I've gotten BORs from people dozens of times. But always in the context of working through a system or a coverage review. The BOR was just the best thing to do. It was never something that I strategically went after, thought through, or planned around.
--:-- So I love these kinds of episodes because they're conversations where I know a little, maybe just enough to be dangerous, but certainly I am not an expert. It allows me to dive into my curiosity. If you're coming from where I am, where you've heard about using BORs as a first principle strategy for growing your book of business but aren't exactly sure what that means or how it works, you're going to learn a lot. I know I did.
--:-- Also, something I found really interesting that we get into is Nick and I discuss how similar the underlying core concepts are of approaching a client from a BOR strategy and how we at Finding Peak and my team teach the inbound sales process, what we call the one-call closed process. The underlying structure, ideas, concepts, the feelings we're trying to get from those clients — how similar they are. So this is a wide-ranging, dynamic conversation all about growth and BORs and inbound sales. I think you're going to love it. Nick's a great guy. I highly recommend that you connect with him on LinkedIn. He posts a ton of great stuff.
--:-- All right, before we get to Nick and that conversation, I just want to remind you guys: the Insurance Growth Masterclass, the first offering coming out of Finding Peak, which will be a membership community specifically focused on helping you grow the inbound side of your business. Helping you understand how to get a consistent flow of qualified inbound leads, taking that through to how we actually use the one-call closed system that I kind of patented over the last 18 years of my career to drive max conversions, setting up clients to then maximize their lifetime value as part of your agency.
--:-- There are a lot of conversations happening on LinkedIn. We even discuss it here inside of this conversation with Nick because it was kind of happening in real time. So many people operate from a place of "you need to completely round out an account to write them" and "monoline businesses are garbage." I think those are fine concepts, but they do not allow us to maximize the conversion rate that we have for our inbound business. They tend to keep CAC high — cost of acquisition.
--:-- Ultimately, if we're doing the right things in the third model that we teach in Finding Peak — maximizing lifetime value — then if you're not getting the opportunities in, if you're not closing the opportunities at a max rate, then you don't have the ability to maximize the lifetime value of the maximum number of clients out the back end of that process.
--:-- I believe the traditional, slightly more ego-driven mentality of "I have to round out all the accounts" and "it's about educating customers" and "they don't know what they don't know" — I think all that is great. I understand it. I am sure many businesses have been built with that philosophy. However, I do not believe it is a philosophy that allows you to rapidly scale your agency. I think it limits your ability to take in customers from a wide range of sources of inbound opportunities, if that makes sense.
--:-- More than that to come. Incredible conversation with Nick. Guys, if you want to learn more about what we're doing at the Insurance Growth Masterclass, go to masterclass.insure. Put that into your browser. You can either sign up for the waitlist if we haven't launched yet, or once we're live, that link will take you directly to where you can learn more about the Insurance Growth Masterclass and what we're doing at Finding Peak.
--:-- Guys, I love you for listening to this podcast. It is my great pleasure to share conversations like this with you. And here we go. Let's get on to Nick.
--:-- Nick Aube: Well, good. I appreciate you having me on. It's good to get together here.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. I'm excited to chat. It's funny — I'm glad we're chatting. I just posted a video on LinkedIn, which I'll have linked up in the show notes for people, and I want to get your take on it because you're a BOR guy. People take my take on this particular issue all different directions. So I'll have it linked up in the show notes, guys, so you can check out the video. It's actually from a solo episode that I did of the podcast earlier, but it's around this idea of stop trying to round out inbound accounts.
--:-- The take I took on this video, and this is what I believe, is that when it comes to inbound accounts — we're not talking about cold call prospecting or networking or even referrals. We're talking about someone who goes on the interwebs, searches for insurance problems, finds your agency, and decides to either fill out a form on your website or call you. My take is very specifically that you do not try to solve all their insurance. You solve the problem that they addressed when they called you.
--:-- So if I own a business, let's say I own a bakery, and I call you and I say, "Hey Nick, this is Ryan. I just hired my first employee. I have no idea what to do. Do you need to help me?" You write the worker's comp. Now you can say, "Hey, it's easier if I work with everything," and if they want to give you the business real quick, that's great. But what I've found over and over and over again, listening to thousands of calls through TrustedChoice.com, through my work coaching clients, through all the time at Rogue Risk, through all my time at the Murray Group when I've been doing inbound — I find it very interesting.
--:-- I've probably listened to and/or taken as many or more inbound leads, talking just about inbound, than anybody else in the space. What I found is that if you try to write the entire account or try to sell them additional products, you lose that business more often than you get it. The pushback is, "Well, we differentiate." And I love this. Zach Gould is pushing back on me a little bit, and Michael Cruz, who I love. I love all these guys, and I love their takes. I'm not saying their takes are wrong. I have just found that I think we operate — and this is really where I'm interested in your position, and I'm interested in your take on this particular topic.
--:-- I feel like a lot of the pushback I get on this topic comes from a legacy mindset idea that somehow writing the entire account is doing proper risk management. There is absolutely undeniable evidence that the more policies you have, the higher your retention rate. So I'm not arguing that. I just feel like — and I think about my own customer experience — when I need help with something, let's say I call Spectrum, our cable service here. Let's say I call Spectrum and I need help with my Wi-Fi. And then they start: "Okay, great. Well, what about TV?" "Well, I don't need TV." "Yeah, but we have the TV package." "I don't need the TV package. I need you to make sure that my Wi-Fi works." "Well, if we speed up your internet, you could also get TV and phone." "No, I have a phone. I don't need a phone. I don't need TV. I need you to take me from the base level Spectrum internet to the top level Spectrum. That's why I'm calling you."
--:-- Now I'm pissed off. Now I'm getting frustrated. I feel like this happens in our space too. I'm a business owner. I hire my first employee. I've heard of workers comp. I know I need it, but I have no idea where to get it or what it is. I call you. And now you're talking to me about my commercial auto and my cyber and "Hey, who does your personal lines?" And now I'm like, "All this person wants to do is sell me shit." I'm calling someone else. And then they ghost you. And then agents go, "Well, inbound leads are crap," or "The internet leads are crap," or "People are just tire-kickers." No — they called you with a problem and you didn't solve their problem. You tried to do what was in your best interest, which was all their policies at one time.
--:-- What I'm advocating for is this idea: solve their problem, and then have systems, processes, and a cultural belief structure of account rounding and upselling at every touch in the future. I find it interesting that there's this legacy concept that if I don't write all their business and I don't write it all in the initial interaction, somehow they're not going to stick. I just haven't found that to be the case. But I love your take on all this. I know that was a lot of intro.
--:-- Nick Aube: No, it was good, dude. I hadn't quite thought about it that way before. I honestly never did a ton of inbound. That's one thing with this business that I've really started dabbling with and kind of focused on. But it's interesting. My wife and I, this was like a couple of years ago. I'm like, "Son of a bitch. I need a personal stylist. I want somebody to help me out." But in the beginning, it didn't start like that. It was like, "I need a pair of pants for this wedding to go with this jacket that I've got." And you call all these people that do custom clothes. They're like, "Okay, well, you need to come in and we're going to do some measurements. We've got to figure out your summer casual style." I'm like, "Summer casual? Dude, it's the dead of winter. I got a wedding in the spring. I just need a damn jacket."
--:-- As you were saying that, it hit me. I hadn't thought about inbound that way before. When you're talking about it, I wouldn't get frustrated. What's the take? You respond on it. You're just trying to sell me a bunch more shit that I don't necessarily need. Did I probably need a stylist and do I need the full measurement? Yeah, probably. But was I personally there yet to actually sit down and go through that? No. I needed to solve that one problem. So I think you're spot on.
--:-- The take that I would add to it is transparency on the front end of how the process works. Especially with the BOR and everything that I'll do with that. It's the simplest thing. Take the amount of thing: "Hey prospect, I'll solve this problem all day long. You need to understand some ways that the industry works though. Here's what it looks like. Ultimately, long-term, the best strategy for you is going to have everything with one carrier, one policy, or one renewal date, multiple carriers, one broker at least. We can get to that point, but let's get this thing solved so you can get that employee hired and go do whatever you need to do."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, and you just hit on it. I'm perfectly willing — and again, this is from doing thousands and thousands of these calls that I have this perspective. This is not theory for me. This is I've tried it every way. I've lost more accounts than any — I've watched more accounts ghost me or not call me back or say no for every reason. What is wrong with saying, "Hey, I'm going to do a tremendous job for you on your workers' comp. I'm going to crush it. You're going to have no workers' comp problems." I think it's perfectly fine to even say, "Look, man, it may even be easier for you if you just bring over your package too. Let's deal with that in a couple weeks. No problem. Let's get your person on the job, and I want to make sure you're squared away."
--:-- Because you know what I'm doing? Guys, if you're listening to this and struggling with this concept: when you solve the one problem up front that they have, you've just become a massive value creator in that person's mind. Because you didn't try to sell them something they need. You weren't pushy. Doesn't mean you can't ask them open-ended questions and figure out what's going on with their account. Doesn't mean you can't be taking notes going, "This company probably really does need cyber" or "Hey, I need to BOR the front end." To me, it's very similar to a BOR strategy. You're just trying to be a value creator for them and getting them to choose you. That's what you're trying to do. You're trying to get them to choose you as someone they trust. Once they trust you, they're going to be willing to bring all their other stuff around and refer you and leave a Google review and all the things. But they don't trust you yet. The more you try to push on them, the more they're going to go, "All they care about is the money." Even if that's not true.
--:-- Again, I don't believe anybody who's pushing back on me on this post is wrong. I love everybody who is. I think they're all amazing. I think the difference is I don't think we're necessarily thinking through — particularly to inbound. Referrals, completely different. Outbound prospects that we reach out to do BOR because we think we can be better — completely different. There are other veins where I would say this is not the tact I would take. Only specifically to inbound people who reached out their hand and said, "I have a problem. I need help." That's what I'm trying to get to.
--:-- Right before we got on the call to do the podcast, all these comments started blowing up with this video that I put out. I just thought it was really—
--:-- Nick Aube: You're going viral.
--:-- Nick Aube: I said you're going viral with the thing. You're pissing people off.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I don't know about that. But it is fun. I love these conversations. I feel like these are the great conversations that we have. The people that are pushing back — it's Michael Cruz and Zach Gould. These are great guys, great thoughts. I'm not hating. I just feel very strongly on this particular topic about this particular workflow from my own beats.
--:-- Dude, I want to talk to you about what you have going on with Producer Systems and particularly this whole BOR thing. I think there are a few different people teaching some different strategies. We can get into your particular style. But before we get to that, I was never a guy who sold or prospected on BORs. I never did what you teach. It was never the way that I operated. So I'm a neophyte to this to a certain extent. I'm very interested — maybe for those who are listening who are more like me, maybe they do more personal lines and BORs just aren't a big part of their process, or small commercial or main street. Or maybe they're just new in their career and haven't gotten there yet. Talk to me just a little bit about the baseline — super remedial — on what exactly is a BOR and what are you trying to accomplish from a tactical sense using a BOR to bring in business? Before we get into the whys and the hows, just the very baseline of versus just rewriting someone's insurance. What are we actually doing here?
--:-- Nick Aube: Yeah, the baseline is we are literally presenting the prospect with why they should go with me. Here's why you should choose me to be your broker to go to the entire market on your behalf rather than quoting. By doing that as the broker, you're guaranteeing revenue. We're going to get paid or we know we're going to get paid at the end of it. Let's say it's 90 days. We know we're going to get paid at the end because regardless of what happens with the marketplace, we know we're at least controlling their current insurance program. They have insurance, we're going to take it off.
--:-- The client doesn't give a shit about you getting to guarantee revenue. Who cares for you? What's in it for me? For the client, the benefit, the strategy is to have one broker to actually see the entire marketplace, actually have a solid negotiation. What we're positioning and pitching to the client is like, "I don't care if it's me or not, dude." Kind of like we're talking about the inbound — just educate them. "You want to get the most of the market? Well, it's changed. You used to quote multiple brokers back when the agents sold that exclusivity — this broker had this carrier and this broker had that carrier. So you had to go to both to see two options. But now both brokers have both carriers. You're better off finding one broker to get to the whole market, and then they can go out and negotiate and pit the market against each other and come back to you with one option."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Back in the day, the idea was that carriers used to pitch their appointments on franchise value. There's like a franchise value to the appointment. I felt really bad one time because a carrier pitched me on it. We were going back and forth and this guy was a little old school and a little pompous. He talked about the franchise value of this appointment. I kind of giggled a little bit. He kind of did the thing. I was like, "Dude, it's 2022. Are we still talking about franchise value with carriers? I'm not saying your appointment isn't important to me — that's why we're on the phone. But do we really believe that I'm going to sell more because I have your appointment? Is that what you're pitching me right now?"
--:-- So what you're saying is that there was a day when this guy would have X carrier and Y carrier, and this over here would have ABC. To get to all these carriers, an account would have to shop multiple brokers. But today, for the most part, through wholesalers, through networks, aggregators, and just in general, agents and brokers have the looseness of carrier appointments or the spread of carrier appointments. Most agents are going to be able to get to most carriers. In that way, it does not make sense for a large account to — I'm assuming this is middle market stuff. Small accounts, this isn't really as important or maybe as much of a pitch, right?
--:-- Nick Aube: On small, I would still run it into the broker and just condense the process, make it short, still educate them on it, because I think it still is effective. You're spot on the way you're thinking about it. The broker in town could be the biggest prick in the world, but they're the only one with a hundred mile radius that has Travelers, and Travelers are really good at landscapers, and you're a landscaper. Shit. Okay, I got to go to that guy. That's how it was sold. "You had to come to me. My service can suck. I could not pay attention to your experience about any of that stuff, but I've got the best carrier. The price is 20% lower. So you got to come through me."
--:-- That's where we were. It's evolved to your point. We've got pretty much every broker has access to pretty much every carrier. So the client, the consumer — the best strategy is to have one broker do that. You don't have multiple CPAs. Can you imagine if that's how we ran the tax system? "All right, I got to lower my taxes. I've got three CPAs in here beating it up, see what they can do." It just doesn't work that way. Then you add on top of that, the carriers block the marketplace. Every year you have three CPAs, but you can only get one to actually give you a damn tax return. Finally a broker comes in and says, "Hey, I have a CPA. You know why that happens? Because the IRS is only going to release your taxes once. They're only going to do it with one CPA. They send it to the first person that actually submits your tax return. That's the CPA that gets it. That's the CPA that gets paid."
--:-- The brokerage is the same way. The carrier is only releasing one quote.
--:-- [Episode pause for sponsor message]
--:-- Ryan Hanley: What's up, guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode. As you know, we do not run ads on this show. In exchange for that, I need your help. If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment if you're on YouTube, leave a rating review if you're on Spotify or Apple iTunes. This helps the show grow. It helps me bring more guests in. We have a tremendous lineup of people coming in — men and women who've done incredible things, sharing their stories around peak performance, leadership, growth, sales — the things that are going to help you grow as a person and grow your business. They all check out comments, ratings, reviews. They check out all this information before they come on. So as I reach out to more and more people and want to bring them in and share their stories with you, I need your help. Share the show. Subscribe if you're not subscribed. I'd love for you to leave a comment about the show because I read all the comments. Or if you're on Apple or Spotify, leave a rating review of this show. I love you for listening to this show and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I enjoy creating the show for you. All right, I'm out of here. Peace. Let's get back to the episode.
--:-- Nick Aube: The brokers that are actually in there competing — they need to be the first one in. What are they going to do? They're going to put together a shiny submission so it's the first one to the carrier. Now your first representation, your first impression with the carrier is shitty because it's an incomplete submission. That's the concept. You go and you hire a CPA, you do all this work, you spend all this time to make sure you get your best shot to file your tax return because you only get one shot to reduce that tax line dollar. It's the same with the insurance companies — going after them and negotiating with them.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I had this happen to me once early with Rogue. I brought an account to a carrier and submitted it. I thought this was a lock-in because in my mind, the carrier I was submitting it to — this was something that was in appetite, seemed to fit, the size fit, I had the loss runs, it was a full submission. A couple of days go by and I'm like, "This is odd that I haven't got a response. This is a knockdown account. I would think I would have this back and we'd be writing this already." I reach out to the underwriter and the underwriter goes, "Oh, you know, I bottom-piled that because every year a different broker submits it to me."
--:-- That was a really interesting moment for me. I had heard things about it, but I never actually experienced that. She's a good underwriter and a good friend. She wasn't doing anything wrong. I understood where she was coming from. Her point was: if every year this account is submitted to me by a different broker, it shows a lack of loyalty by the customer or by the client. If you're telling me you have some unique and different relationship with them that's going to get us the business, I'll spend time on it. But I'm not just going to re-quote and fire off a new proposal to a different broker every year just to not get the business.
--:-- While you don't always love to hear that, especially early in a business cycle when you're like, "I want to write everything I can," I took that to heart. It really makes a lot of sense to me. A lot of these underwriters, especially the ones doing middle market or larger accounts, this takes real work for them. You need to present them with something that they think they're going to win because they're humans with their own goals, just like us. Just like salespeople. That was a really interesting take for me. It got me thinking about this process a lot. How you submit the business, who submits the business — it's meaningful to these guys. There are only so many accounts in these regions and they see a lot of the same stuff.
--:-- Nick Aube: If you took that back to the prospect — "Hey, just got off a call with an underwriter" — in a sense of what you're saying, your name's trash in the marketplace. It's absolutely been destroyed based on how you navigated the market over the past three to five years. They would have no idea. They're like, "Hey dude, I'm just playing the game. I'm just trying to lower my premium. What do you mean I need to try? This is what I was trained to do." The industry trained the brokers and producers to go out and quote, so then they trained the consumers. The consumer was like, "Oh, these people are calling me, so I let them quote. What do you mean I destroyed my name in the marketplace?"
--:-- It's that education to the prospect: "Hey, here's how you actually navigate. Here's how you repair in the marketplace. Here's your name in the market. Here's what you need to do. You need one broker to do it. Maybe stay out of the market one or two years. And then if you want me to be the broker in its simplest form, here's what I can do to help you do that."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Do you think that clients actually care? I mean that honestly. Do you think you bring that back and you're like, "Look, man, this market's a no-go for you for a while because they've seen the submission too many times by too many different people and it shows them that you're not serious" — or at least that's what they believe that to mean — do you think they care? Or are they just like, "Whatever, just shot me someplace else"? Does that really carry weight with them?
--:-- Nick Aube: It's interesting. Before you were saying, "Hey, this is what I know about the inbound stuff because I've had beats." I was in a 12-year science experiment. I was literally in this lab figuring out this BOR stuff. In the beginning, they didn't give a shit. They did not care. My attitude in the beginning, right?
--:-- Nick Aube: Prospects are about price. All I gotta pay less, and you can't avoid it. Everyone — I've never met anybody that is not price sensitive when it comes to insurance. There's different variations of it, like "they're robbing me blind" or "they come to the tallest buildings," whatever bullshit. They're concerned about price.
--:-- In the beginning, when I was selling BOR, when I started doing it, I didn't want to talk about price because it was like that's beneath me. I'm not going to discuss premium. Like, are you kidding me? If you want something printed and go, that guy will quote you all day long. I couldn't get myself to do it.
--:-- But as I went through it over the years, and then ultimately leaving and doing what I'm doing now, actually getting to talk with people and hire other coaches, I really dissected the process. It's like, holy shit, that's all we should be talking about in the sales process. Because if you think about it, that's their number one problem. We were talking about earlier, right? "Hey, my problem is premium." "Yeah, that's great. Shut up. And let me show you all this coverage stuff." "Yeah, yeah, yeah." Right? "You don't have a premium problem. Did you know you're missing debris removal? That's such an important..." Right? And that's what we're doing in the beginning, especially when I was basing my BOR pitch off a coverage analysis or experience amount analysis. What I wasn't doing was solving their problems.
--:-- So to answer your question, do they care about it? Only if you position it correctly. When we position it back to them solving their problem: "Hey, look, prospect, I get you want to pay the least amount possible. Who wouldn't? I've never met anybody that wants to pay more. The way you go about that and the strategy that you run to navigate the market directly impacts your premium and your chance to pay the least amount over the next three to five years. Here's the strategy you need to run."
--:-- If we could frame it in a way that's tied to them solving their problem, and really what we're doing — the sale, the actual BOR sale — isn't about asking for the BOR. It isn't about our risk management services, our loss control, our experience. I need that bullshit. Even though it's important, right? There's a smart concern. You've probably heard it: sell them what they want and give them what they need. So let's give them all that stuff in the back end because we know they need it. They need a good agent. They need the right coverage. They need all that. But they're trying to solve the premium problem.
--:-- When we connect it to that, the pitch for the BOR is actually selling them on a new way to think about their problem. If we can even get them to do that — instead of quoting to solve your premium problem, hire one broker and run this strategy — if they do that, it's game over. They're going to sign the BOR. So you sell them what they want, give them what they need.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That is the whole crux of my inbound selling system, the one call closed process. It's literally — and this is the disconnect that I think going back to the very beginning of our conversation, and I love that it's now connecting — I really believe this is how you sell. But I love that you're connecting it to this BOR process because that's the whole thing.
--:-- I said this in one of the comments back to one of the people who were sharing their thoughts: you're associating the fact that I'm saying solve their problem with this being transactional. I said that's an assumption, not a reality. What I'm doing is solving a problem, but I'm also giving them what they need. I'm not just pushing things on them today that they don't necessarily need. If they have a package policy and that package policy is fine for today, it serves their need for today. Why would I mess with that when what they really need is to get their employee on the job site through this workers' comp policy? So I'm going to get them what they need. I'm going to understand what they want, come behind them.
--:-- And so much of this — and I want to get your take on this too as it goes to BORs, and I'm assuming there's a little bit of congruency here — so much of this is open-ended questions. This is the part that I really find the biggest disconnect in so much of what we do, particularly on the sales process: information gathering versus asking open-ended questions.
--:-- We get a prospect on the phone, and all of a sudden it's like, "Well, who does your comp and what's your limit and how much payroll do you have? And what are your class codes?" And you're like, none of that means anything to me. I don't care. What are you saying? All I know is I got a big audit bill last year and I don't want that to happen again. And you're like, "Well, what about it?" And it's like, how about we slow down and let's figure out what their problem actually is?
--:-- Oftentimes they'll lead with price, but that's not really what they're going to buy. Because if you come back with price — and again, listening to thousands of inbound calls, price, price, price, price, price is the beginning of the call. And because we don't actually dig into what's going on, we just take their information. Even if we quote their whole account and we come back on price, they don't close. And then we go, "They're tire kickers. They're BS accounts. These people don't really care. They don't value relationships." Like, no. Price wasn't actually the real problem. They may have called you on price. They may have led with price because, as you said and I love it, they've been trained to lead with price. But that's not actually what the problem was. And we didn't slow down long enough to figure out what the real problem was that would get them to buy the policy. That's such a nuance, but to me, it's crucial. Does that make sense?
--:-- Nick Aube: It totally makes sense. It brings me back to when I was probably like six months in, eight months in. I left Brown and Brown. I went to this agency out in California. I was looking at Boston at the time. It snowed on Halloween. And I literally am like, "Fuck this. I've lived in New England my whole life. I'm going somewhere warm." So I moved out to California and I landed at this agency. And they're like, "Dude, perfect timing. It's everything we're talking about. We've got access to a hot new landscaping program. We're one of four agents in all of California. So we're exclusivity on price. It's going to be 40% less than the current landscape association program or some bullshit." I literally moved there in the morning.
--:-- So me and a couple other producers — I'm the newest, the youngest, we just started. They have connections out. I don't know anybody. I literally moved there with six suitcases, broke into a friend's place, crashed for a couple of weeks. I started hitting the phones and I built up a $4.8 million pipeline in like a quarter. Everything renewed premium. At the time I was still talking premium. Everything renewed between April 1st and April 13th.
--:-- And what was the pitch? "Hey, one of four agents in all the state, we're going to be 40% less. It's time this monopoly comes to an end. We're just going to kick this carrier's ass. Boom. I'm taking applications." Everything we're just talking about — payroll, sales, all that shit. The reality is we weren't 40% less. The other carriers didn't roll over and watch half their book walk out the door. So they came out. We weren't as competitive as the program thought it was the first year. So we were about 12% less. And on the entire thing, I wrote a thousand dollar BOP. And I was 22. I already spent some of the damn money. It hurt. It was not a good situation.
--:-- The reality was I sold it completely on price and exclusivity, and I didn't deliver. At the end of the day, it was out of my control. And what did they do? They looked at two quotes. "Nick, you said you'd be 40. You're only 10. We know the other broker. We trust them. They solved other problems. We're staying with them." At that point, I'm like, "Fuck this energy. I'm quitting or I'm figuring out a different way because I'm not going to do this for 20 years" — which is what I'm now doing. It was so eye-opening to me. That's when I started figuring out this BOR thing.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So let's talk about the BOR thing. When you approach someone, how do you put yourself in front of somebody and start to create differentiation? What does that look like? I mean, obviously you have a secret sauce to your system and I'm not asking for that, but at a high level, how do you start? You call somebody and you say, "You've got this broker and you've had them for five years, and I'm calling you to tell you that you should work with me." And here's the process. How do you start to break down how you might differentiate from them? Why they might get more value from working with you? What does that start to look like? How are you helping your coaching clients do that? What are your theories around that stuff?
--:-- Nick Aube: Yeah, so I mean it all comes down to positioning on the front end. I think some of the biggest mistakes in getting the BOR are caused by positioning on the front end. You have to position it from — I would say lead with the BOR without saying BOR. Gotcha? It's like if you're going to go on your first date and you're interested in marrying the girl, okay, you can think that and you can be taking her down that path, but don't freaking say the word marriage on the first damn day. You're in. That's one of the mistakes. People are jumping, "You're going to have to fire your agent." It's like, you've been talking to this person for 10 minutes, less than that.
--:-- The other mistake I made in the beginning: I would say anything just to get a damn meeting on the books. So they said, "Oh, hey, you want to come quote?" "Yeah, yeah, shit. I'll quote. I'll be there. I'll be there tomorrow. What time?" And then in that meeting, I would try and convince them that they should move down this path and BOR. It was too late because it was like bait and switch. I'm going to say, "Nick, you showed me. You told me..." Whoa.
--:-- So when we talk about positioning on the front end, really what we're trying to do is get them to think differently about solving this premium problem. Think differently about this strategic approach that they're taking to the marketplace, which they're not getting. Every broker's calling and giving them some version, right? There's all these different levels from quoting all the way down to "I'm going to do a full risk management review of your entire program and get back to some results." Everyone sounds a little different, but it's all the same. It's the same experience. "I need data to show you value." That's the transaction. And the prospect's been through it a thousand times, or they've at least gotten a thousand phone calls.
--:-- So it's like, okay, do I want to engage with this broker, have them come out to my office, spend 90 minutes with me, then try and take my ass out to lunch just to build rapport? Then I'm going to send them all the policies and all this information. Then I'm going to work with them for 90 days. They're going to ask a thousand freaking questions to maybe find out if they can save me money and if I should move with them. That's what's going on in the prospect's head.
--:-- We can't just have a different version of that or a better version of that. "My script's better," right? No. What we need to do is create a completely different experience and be able to provide value to the prospect without getting anything in return. That's what we're looking to do on the front end from the positioning perspective.
--:-- So typically it would go: "Okay, look, I know you get calls from hundreds of brokers. I don't actually quote insurance. What we found is that that actually hurts your chances to pay the least amount of premium. You have 15 minutes to talk about maybe a better strategy to navigate the market, drive down cost." So we're taking them somewhere in a different direction. We don't need anything from them. Then we're getting on that 15-minute call. We can actually interview them and start to frame the process that we're taking them down. But the key to it is at the end of that 15-minute call, prospect, you're going to have a strategy to navigate the market better than you currently are. So all we got to do is show up and they're getting something, compared to the traditional model where they've got to give and give and give to maybe get something.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I love that approach. It's very similar to what we do with inbound stuff. To me, the longer you can go without asking for the particulars of their account — the info gathering stage — the more that prospect's going to trust you. Because the minute you know... How I would always position it is I would get to a certain point when you're qualifying the prospect. Not everyone's a good fit, and it goes for inbound accounts just like outbound.
--:-- We work through the process, and at a certain point you realize, okay, this person is someone I can work with and I can help. I would say my kill shot phrase is, "We got you." That's what I tell everybody. I teach every one of my producers. I go, "Hey, Nick, the good news is, I got you, man. I've worked with hundreds of accounts like yours. I got you. So here's where I got to do my job. I got to do my job now. Is that all right?" And you're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." And I'm like, "Okay, I got to grab some info from you. It's going to take 20 minutes. I can do it on the phone or I can send you a form, whatever. Either way, I got to get that info to do my job. But it's time for me to do my job. How do you want to do it? Choose. No problem." Boom.
--:-- But that's after 10, 15, 20 minutes of talking. You get to that point, then you ask for the information at the end. If you go, "Hey, Nick, I work with tons of bakeries. How many employees do you have?" You're like, "What the — who are you? What are you doing?" Because you're trying to qualify them out based on data, demographics, when really I think we should be qualifying people out on mindset.
--:-- One, if you're not doing your job on the front end and understanding and filtering, then that's part of it. But I believe a much better way to go about selling insurance is to disqualify people on mindset. There are a couple of reasons for that. One, it drastically improves your close ratio because if someone believes what you believe and buys into the process, then they're almost sold before you even get off the phone. Two, and this goes for small accounts becoming big accounts and big accounts becoming small accounts — what matters is that you have accounts on the books.
--:-- Now, granted, there are some situations where "hey, we don't write anything less than $5,000 in revenue premium." Those things are real. I get that. But your prospecting or your inbound lead flow should be generating accounts closer to that ilk more consistently. There's always going to be exceptions. But if you are a general agency or you do a broad spectrum of commercial or a wide range, writing the type of people who believe what you believe — that I'm choosing you, I'm willing to buy into the mindset that I'm going to choose you, I'm going to trust you — versus "Nick, you seem like a nice guy and I'm willing to let you quote my insurance. And hey, maybe we can even go golfing together. But next year, regardless of what you say, I'm going to do the same crap again and I'm going to send it out to all these guys."
--:-- Even if they're the perfect account and all their demographics line up exactly with what you want, if their mindset doesn't match your mindset, it's not going to be a great account. You might be able to write it once and post on LinkedIn and thump your chest and tell everyone how you're this great producer, but you're going to go through all the same bullshit again next year if their mindset doesn't align with you.
--:-- Nick Aube: Dude, 100% agree. The process for me — I started running it and I'm like, "I want to see these bastards' true colors as early as I can." Because what kept happening was no matter how I qualified it, I quoted, small percentage were giving that number to the incumbent. If you're going to do me like that, well, I don't want to work with you. That's not how I would operate. But I want to find that out before I spend 90 to 120 days quoting you. So let's shrink the process and let's force the prospect to actually answer a question: "Are you going to hire me or not?"
--:-- That's some of the biggest pushback I've gotten: "How can you possibly BOR without a coverage analysis or without finding pain or experience analysis?" And it's like, all that's going to show you is that the other agent did a shitty job. If you look at the coverage, okay, great. That's shitty coverage. You're going to rewrite it anyway. Why do you need that to qualify the prospect? It's exactly what you're saying. Is this prospect going to be a good fit for my process? Do I want to work with them? Do they want to work with me? Because believe it or not, they have a say in this.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, yeah.
--:-- Nick Aube: "And here's how I work. If that's not going to be a fit, prospect, then there are other brokers who are willing to quote it. I will happily make the introduction for you." Particularly to my top competition, so you can waste their time for 120 days while I'm not working on other stuff.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. You don't need that to qualify. I agree with you. It's funny, Mike Asalis posted something the other day about how someone he was talking to said that their agency principal wouldn't allow them to BOR because of E&O issues, E&O concerns. And I was like, that's beautiful because one, most likely if that agency principal looked into their own agency, there's probably E&O concerns all over like every freaking agency that exists. And two, if you properly document your conversations, there is quite literally no additional E&O exposure by BORing an account because you haven't actually changed coverage.
--:-- Where the real E&O issues start to come in is on misrepresentations around coverage. If you properly articulate and document a BOR process, you're not increasing — and let me know if I'm wrong about this, but my understanding is that you're in no way increasing your E&O exposure by BORing an account. Am I correct in saying that?
--:-- Nick Aube: It took me a while and going on a lot of these calls to figure out why agencies were saying that. I had it internally when I first started. One of our account managers, that's the first thing she said to me: "It's an E&O issue." Son of a bitch. I don't even care about that. We got guaranteed revenue. Let's figure out the E&O. Let's make it not an E&O issue, whatever we need to do. That was the first time I heard that. "What do you mean it's an E&O issue?" So I dug into it. I understood, okay, well, what can I do on the front end to prevent it from being an E&O issue? So we worked through that.
--:-- What I found going through all these calls with producers, agency owners — I didn't know this until I started doing this full time — years ago to BOR, you did not have to submit a new application or a new submission. So you'd sign the BOR and the policy would just transfer to you. You didn't even have to look at it. So okay, oh, I get it now. I get where they're saying it's an E&O issue because if you don't actually re-underwrite it and the thing just transfers, you truly are inheriting somebody else's mistakes at that point.
--:-- But that doesn't exist anymore. For the most part, most carriers — I'm sure there's one or two, somebody's going to be listening, "Well, technically this carrier out in whatever Alabama requires..." For the most part, you can't do that. You have to submit a completely new submission. So you have to re-underwrite it. The process actually forces you to re-underwrite it.
--:-- The only potential issue that you would have is if they had a coverage on their current policy, you take it over on BOR, you resubmit to that carrier or to the rest of the marketplace, and you place that coverage with anybody — the incumbent carrier or a new carrier — and you missed one of the coverages during your analysis process. However, that same exposure exists if you quote.
--:-- Nick Aube: If you're canceling and rewriting, the same exact thing happens. Because if you quote and they had a coverage and they go, "You didn't put it on there," they're probably going to sue you anyway. I had that with my old agency where the quote didn't have it. So you have the same exposure. I think it's just a way for people to say, "I don't want to deal with the BOR."
--:-- I was the same way in the beginning. The first time I heard it, it was a job interview in California. I was working at Brown & Brown, quoting stuff, cold calling, just grinding it out. I interviewed with this one firm and it wasn't clear on their website that they did this. I sit down in the interview and the principal was like, "We only BOR here." And I couldn't get it at all. The first question I asked: "Well, then how do you write new business?" I wasn't going to get the damn job. In his face, it's like, "This guy just doesn't understand." But I started asking questions like, "Okay, so I don't get it. How do you write new business? How do you do this?"
--:-- Basically what he came down to, and he said to me, "Hey, clearly you don't get this. Why don't you go be an underwriter for five years? Then you can come back, and maybe we would consider hiring you to go out in the field." I was pissed. I'm like, one, I would get fired as an underwriter. I would not last a day as an underwriter. I was frustrated. That's why I took the other job as a broker in California. That's where I quoted all those landscapers. It wasn't until after that I'm like, "Maybe that dude's onto something." It kind of opened my eyes to like, okay, maybe there's a different way that I can bring in new business rather than just going out and quoting it.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I think, just putting a pin in the E&O thing, if you're documenting your conversations and you're working through processes, there is no additional E&O concern. Because even if you did straight BOR — even if you just sign the letter, letter goes in, all of a sudden the policies are in your name — well, then all you need to do when you get them is look at them and review them and make sure that the coverage is right. If all of a sudden you see that the liability is half of what it should be, you call your now new client and go, "Hey man, just so you know, this is not near where it should be. We just need to bump this up or whatever." Then you make the proper adjustment.
--:-- I think oftentimes people, the idea of anything different scares them. I know for a long time, BOR scared me. I think the BOR process exposes our insecurities in sales. Because when we're canceling and rewriting something, we feel confident that we're coming in with a better price and different coverage and a new carrier and look at all this work I did and I earned this business. Whereas with the BOR, we're like, "Look, you need to buy me. I have a strategy that I'm gonna deliver. I'm gonna work with you. I'm gonna be a partner." However you position yourself exactly. But that so much of that has to do with my confidence to help you versus me bringing you something that I feel is superior and therefore gives me confidence. If that makes sense, it's like intrinsic versus extrinsic confidence in terms of whether we're comfortable with a BOR or not.
--:-- I definitely think it exposes people who are not — and again, all of us probably, especially early in our careers. I'm not trying to say that some are better than others. I do think it exposes our insecurities and our own ability to be valued providers.
--:-- Nick Aube: I could not agree 100% more. I think that 100% more. That's how you say it. Damn, I got all tripped up. Basically, I could BOR. I can't talk.
--:-- But I'll never forget it, dude. I was trying to get other people at different agencies I was at. I was like, "Hey, we should all be doing this. This is the way." You said all the time, "This is the way." That's how I felt about the BOR. I'm like, "Come on."
--:-- We're sitting around the office and this producer came in and was like, "I didn't get the deal because the carrier pricing wasn't good enough. Bummer. Next year." Nonchalant, casual. That was it. And I went home to my wife. I'm like, "I finally get it. I get why people don't want to do this." Because they have an out. There's an excuse when you don't get a deal when you quoted it. There's always somebody to blame. "The carrier wasn't competitive enough. They gave the number to the incumbent. All this stuff's out of my control."
--:-- Well, I was tired of having stuff out of my control. So I wanted to be the way that you control that. But ultimately, it's on you. There is no excuse. "I didn't do a good enough job. I didn't explain it correctly. They didn't get it." Whatever it is. But there's no way out. There's no excuse other than your process. I think that's a huge hurdle to get over.
--:-- Even me at the beginning, I was like, I couldn't fully get to it. I had this vision, this dream. "Okay, I want to build it completely on BOR. That's all I want to operate on." And at the beginning, I would still — if the revenue was big enough, I'd freaking back down and I'd quote it. I'd make the BOR pitch and go, "Hey, Nick, that's great, but we're not going to do that. You're interested in quoting though? Shit, sure. Hey, I'll do it." It ruins all credibility. Not only with that prospect, but then the next prospect. Because now I'm going into the next prospect's eye and I'm like, "I only BOR." Well, except the one yesterday when I caved and I quoted.
--:-- So talking about confidence, unless you fully commit to it, it starts to eat away at what you're doing because you're saying one thing and you're doing another. "Well, I only BOR unless you push me hard enough, then I'll quote." Really buying in and fully going in — "This is how I do business" — that was game changing for me because now it unlocks a different level of conversation with the prospects.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: It's so funny, the similarities between the BOR process now that you're explaining it and we're talking through it and how I teach selling inbound insurance. When I'm working with a coaching client, one of the things that I talk them through is if you focus and develop a flow of inbound leads, you become supremely confident in the fact that you don't need that lead to be successful. That person calls you. And if you don't go straight to information gathering, if you flip the standard process on its head and you move information gathering to the very last step, and you ask some open-ended questions, and you confirm what's actually where they add value, you're able to disqualify the people right up front who aren't a good fit for your business. Because you're never going to be able to control — one with BORs, when you reach out to somebody on paper and InfoZoom in the magazine article, you found their business, they could seem amazing. And you get on the phone with them and they could be a complete jackass and just not a good fit for you.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So like, but you know, and like you said, you got to have the confidence to back away and say, "Hey, this is how I do business. I'm sorry." With inbound, it's made even easier because if you ask those questions up front, you can just say, "Hey, I'm sorry, but I don't have a good market for you," or "I just don't have a good solution for what you're asking for." And you never have to get to the point where you're spending 30 minutes gathering information, sending it to whoever does your quoting or quoting it yourself, worrying about following up.
--:-- If you go information gathering first, then you do all this wasted time upfront. You go through all this process on the backend. You send them their proposal or you try to get them back on the phone, whatever your process is, only to find out that their brother's their agent and they were just trying to get another price to give them a hard time. And then you back all the way through that process and you start going, "Inbound leads? They're terrible. These people are tire kickers. Small commercials? The worst. You can't grow up."
--:-- And I'm like, no, this is not a prospect problem. This is a systems and process problem. If we spend that time and have a set of standards — right? "I only work on BOR. I only work with customers who believe in this. You have to buy into my process. But in exchange, I'm going to deliver this strategy for you and blah, blah, blah." Your value pitch, right? It's the same exact thing with inbound, where if you ask those questions up front, if you allow people to define what actually is success to them — and that's a big part of what our process is — you let the person tell you why they're actually going to buy.
--:-- They may call you on price. Price may actually be a concern. But if you let them talk and you label and reconfirm what is really important to them, oftentimes — well, price might be why they called, and study after study has found this to be true — it is rarely why they actually buy. But we don't realize that if we gather information up front and we don't know what that information is, we don't know what the real reason they're buying is if we go information gathering first.
--:-- So to me, it's really opening my eyes to how different but similar this focusing on BOR is and the inbound process. Done correctly, they're actually fairly similar. I had no idea. I'm one of the guys that assumed — I just assumed inbound, you're getting all the information up front. You're trying to sell them on a quick quote, right?
--:-- Nick Aube: Yeah. And you're spot on. And the similarity is, I think, fighting that urge for every insurance broker. I don't know why, but the first thing is like, "Give me the information. What do I need?" That's the first step when they get a prospect inbound, outbound, whatever it is. We need to change what our first step is.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. And that's the biggest thing to create a different experience for these prospects. It's scarcity versus abundance mindset. One of the reasons why I've always leaned into inbound is that I knew that with the right amount of focus and work upfront and building these educational platforms — be they on YouTube, your website, et cetera, wherever you decide to build it out — you create a consistent flow of business. What that allows you to do, from a confidence perspective, is operate from a place of complete abundance. Which is: I could go 0 for 10 today and it doesn't mean shit because I got 10 more leads coming in tomorrow and I can get after it again. I had a bad day. Maybe I'm in a bad mood. Maybe my mind's just off. Maybe I got something going on at home and I'm not fucking.
--:-- But I think the problem is when we don't do that work and we are just getting one inbound lead a week or maybe two referrals and it's not enough, and we haven't built that engine or we don't have a way of prospecting or consistency in our prospecting or whatever, then everything is so scarce that if a lead comes in, it's like, "Oh my God, I gotta write this. If I don't write this, we're not gonna put premium on the books this week." That desperation and scarcity surrounding that is what forces us to — or not forces us, but I think is part of the reason why we operate in these ways that don't actually produce results.
--:-- I know I need this information to quote and, "Oh my God, I gotta get this business in. So give me that information so I can go quote, feel like I've done something, and hopefully get premium on the books." And it's like, okay, I get that, but let's remove that by building abundance into the front end. I've talked about on the show before how I do that with inbound. But when you're prospecting from a BOR perspective, how do you go about creating abundance in the prospects that you have in front of you? Are you subscribed to insurancexstates.com? What kind of systems, what kind of ideas are you using in order to create that prospect abundance on the front end?
--:-- Nick Aube: Yeah, so it's interesting. I think you had just started Rogue Risk. At the time, I started doing videos in 2019. And I built my book 12 years on cold calling. That's what I did. Every agency has that. It's cold calling. I would grind it out. I still know I can make 25 calls in a 40-minute period. So I'd schedule those. I'd go anywhere from 50 to 100 a day, depending on the time. And I'd just hammer the phone. So that's the system that I used. And to me, it was reliable. I knew if I made X amount of calls, I'd get X amount of appointments. And I protected that time like crazy. Nothing could get in the way in that time. Because I knew if I just did that, I would be okay. I would have leads coming in.
--:-- And so for me, it was always cold calling. I was trying to figure out the video thing. And I remember watching your shit and not that you should be — you get my point.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: No, no, yeah, yeah.
--:-- Nick Aube: This dude, he's got this name about thing to all live. And for me, I never could break away enough from the cold calling to actually — because it worked. And so I was having a hard time to just totally blowing it up. So I used the video a little bit differently, but for me, it was cold call.
--:-- And the other thing that I think — this misconception out there around the BOR, maybe it's misunderstood — the BOR is actually a prospecting tool. People just think it's a letter to get business, but you can actually use it as a tool in two different ways. One is if you position it correctly on the front end, it becomes a more interesting process for the prospect. So we say, "Hey, look, quoting actually hurts your premium. You have some 15 minutes to learn a new strategy or for me to show you a strategy that you can navigate to market." You're going to set more meetings because everyone gives you the camera as far as "I like my agent." They don't actually like their agent. They probably haven't seen their agent. They just don't want to go through the quoting process. So make the process different. If we make it more exciting, more people are going to say yes.
--:-- We were talking earlier about putting yourself in the consumer shoes. And this is an example I use all the time. If a mechanic called you up right now — I don't know what kind of car you drive — but if a mechanic called you up and said, "Hey, Ryan, look, I want to take over your maintenance program for your vehicle. I need you to drive down on Saturday. We're going to run a diagnostics report on your vehicle. It could take about an hour and a half. Then we can go get some lunch. We can kind of bullshit it. Just make sure we get to know each other. And then we'll run a report. I'll probably follow up with some questions. You know, tire pressure. Could you run into the garage? Get all that stuff for me. And then we'll meet again in a week and a half. And I'll show you the report and I'll show you if anything's wrong with your car." It's like, "Holy shit, dude. Should I do that? Maybe. But I don't have that kind of time."
--:-- If they called you up and they're like, "You know, hey, Ryan, I know you drive a Chevy Tahoe. We found that most mechanics will tell you to put synthetic oil in a Tahoe. For whatever reason, it actually has the opposite effect. It causes your car to break down sooner. Do you have 15 minutes to see if we're out? We might be able to help you out with this new strategy of how we're helping other Tahoe owners." It's like, "Well, dude, shit, I got an oil change next week. What do you mean? I'm about to dump that shit in there."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Now, my wife back checked me. She's like, "Is that true?" No, that's not true. If you drive a Tahoe, don't want to dump it.
--:-- Nick Aube: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the concept is, what's happening now? I've already solved the prospect's problem. I already know their problem. I don't need anything from them to tell them their problem. I have the problem and I have their solution. You're going to generate more interest.
--:-- And then the final piece on the prospecting side with the BOR is you create more time to do whatever it is that works for you. If you're really good at inbound, if you're really good at cold call, outbound networking — a lot of times we don't spend time on it because we're stuck quoting this damn bullshit.
--:-- Nick Aube: So if we can remove that part — remove the info gathering, remove the coverage analysis for anybody that's not a client — we just created all this time to then go back out and repurpose that to drive more opportunities.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. I love it, dude. Dude, I want to be cognizant of your time, of our audience's time. This has been a tremendous conversation. I'm so glad that we finally did it. I know a lot of it was me just rescheduling in my life. But I'm so glad that we had a chance to connect at this level. Share what you're doing. It's Producer Systems. Let people know where they can connect with you, where they can learn more about what you do. And if they want to work with you or just reach out and learn more, where should everybody go?
--:-- Nick Aube: Yeah, best way, probably LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on there. You follow me there, connect with me there, message me there. It's me in the chat. It's not a bot. So you'll get me. Or you go to our website, producer.systems. My email's on there. You shoot me an email. But I'm happy to help with any questions on this process. Like, you know, just figuring it out. No matter where you're at, right? You want to just get your BOR process more dialed in or you're like, "Okay, quoting is freaking miserable. I don't even know where to start." Yeah, we hit you up with any questions you got.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I love it. Guys, I'll have all the links in the show notes. Dude, appreciate the hell out of you. Look forward to more and we'll connect on LinkedIn.
--:-- Nick Aube: Dude, sounds good. Appreciate you having me on. Bye, buddy.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'm going to shampoo.
--:-- [End of interview. Promotional segment begins.]
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