--:-- Host: Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have a tremendous episode for you, a conversation with Eric Garcia, founder of Garcia Financial Group. You may know him from his podcast, *Stuff About Money* and his brand, Plan Wisely.
--:-- Host: Eric is one of my favorite people because we are able to have conversations that I believe would normally be combative in our current environment. The way people speak to each other, the way people think about those who may disagree with some of their ideals or some of the components of their belief structure. Oftentimes, these conversations become very combative. What I wanted to have with Eric was a conversation around politics. And what I wanted to show you, the audience, is that when you respect someone, when you care about someone, even if they disagree with your viewpoint, you can have a very productive, very interesting, very engaging conversation around topics that are normally combustive.
--:-- Host: Eric and I don't align on all things. We don't see different political issues from the same vantage point. However, I appreciate his opinion. I know his opinion is coming from a good place. I know he's a good actor. And we're able to discuss all these things and have a tremendous time doing it.
--:-- Host: Honestly, and I share this in the show, I do not think that it is a virtue to act as if you don't pay attention or don't comment on politics. I'm not saying you need to, but for so long in our society, in an effort to just find peace in our lives—which I completely understand—we have stuck our head in the sand. We have kept our mouths closed. We've looked the other way as those who were loud and extreme spoke for us. It is my belief that it is our obligation as individuals, as those with opinions, as citizens of this country, to not necessarily shout from the mountaintops. That's not what I'm saying. But to have a vantage point, to take ownership of our opinion of the way our country is being led and the things that are happening in it, and to have a perspective.
--:-- Host: I wanted to share that. I don't care if you agree with my opinion or you agree with Eric's or you fall somewhere in the middle. I will tell you that what I hope you guys take away—and I am trying to cultivate more—is a sense of openness. Bruce Lee, I just read Bruce Lee's *Striking Thoughts*, and he has this incredible concept that he attacks from a bunch of different angles. But essentially, the idea is the value of the cup is its emptiness. I want to start to cultivate that idea more in my life as I continue on my own journey to peak performance and to being the best version of myself.
--:-- Host: In that way, I want to have more conversations with people who have opinions that I don't necessarily agree with because I want to better understand those opinions. I want to have those conversations in a way that is productive and compassionate and understanding and hopefully fun, because there is no way that we should or that we were built to always agree with each other. But I do think it is our obligation to find ways to be civil and understanding and to give grace to each other despite our differences. I hope that this conversation is an example of that.
--:-- Host: To that end, my friends, if you find value in this conversation, as I've said on many podcasts before, I don't run ads on this podcast. I don't run ads on purpose because I don't want to ever be driven in one direction or another. The value of this podcast to you, and your return of that value, is only in that you share the podcast or you go on Apple, you go on Spotify, you leave us a rating, a review. That helps more people find the show. Sharing the show helps you, helps more people find the show. Even if you share the show to dissent against something I say or to disagree with something I say, I think that's fine. The more people that find this podcast, that listen to these ideas, the more people we can bring in, we can gather more information and ultimately figure out, to our own unique selves, our own unique belief systems, how we become the best version of ourselves. So if you love the show, please share it or go on Spotify, go on Apple, leave us a rating and review. For that, I give you nothing but love. Let's get on to Eric Garcia.
--:-- Host: Before we get there though, I just want to talk about something you brought up and have you share maybe a little more thought on this. You said you think it's incredibly healthy and important that we continually challenge our thought process. Maybe expand on that a little bit because I agree with you, but I'm very interested in why you think that's so important and maybe how you do it.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Yeah. So as humans, we have shortcuts, these heuristics. We call them heuristics in the psychology world, these shortcuts. In the financial space, we have these heuristics, these shortcuts, right? The rule of 72, how fast will it take my money to double? These really quick things because we don't want to waste brain energy. We're lazy. Humans are lazy in general. We want to find the fastest way to do things.
--:-- Eric Garcia: There was a day and age where you had to be physically fit to operate in this world hundreds and hundreds of years ago. If you were overweight and out of shape, you didn't survive. But we're in a world today where our minds are how we make money. We can get really lazy in our thinking processes. We get stuck in these ruts where we start to believe things that might not even be true. We start to believe half truths. If we're not critically thinking through things, we can shortchange decisions that we make. We make poor decisions.
--:-- Eric Garcia: So to say, I think it's really important that in the same way you go to the gym to work out your biceps—I don't do a lot of curls, actually, they're just natural—to work out your hamstrings, your lower back. In the same way you go to the gym to do that, I think we need to be doing the same thing with our minds. If we just constantly read things that are in agreement with us, we're in our little echo chambers and we're never challenged and we never become sharp.
--:-- Eric Garcia: One of my favorite proverbs is, as iron sharpens iron, so one person should sharpen another. If you've ever seen the process of iron becoming sharper, it's a very dramatic, painful, sparks experience. But that's how iron gets sharper. So all that to say, if I want to become sharper in my thinking, it's really important for me to have conflict. When I say conflict, I don't mean bad conflict per se. It's really important for me to be challenged in my thinking.
--:-- Eric Garcia: For example, let's say I'm pro-life. I believe abortion is bad, it should be abolished. And I want to grow in what I believe. I want to be confronted with the best possible pro-choice argument out there. I want to know, not the straw man argument, not like, "Oh, you're pro-choice, you think we should kill babies." If you ever talk to someone who's pro-choice and really listen, that's not where they're coming from, not all of them in particular. I want to be challenged. I want to know what your best argument for pro-choice is. Pick your topic du jour. It could be how you manage your business. I want to be challenged and I want to hear your best argument against what I'm doing.
--:-- Eric Garcia: What I find is that sometimes it moves me. I've been holding on to this for too long, I need to let go of some things that aren't relevant or that are hurting me. And sometimes it strengthens what I believe already. So if we don't take time to be challenged, we will never grow.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Let me give you one more analogy. I love planting things in my garden. If you follow my Facebook, you see I'm planting things. I just planted an avocado, I'm really excited about it. If you take a plant and you plant it from seed in a greenhouse, protected from the elements, no heat, no wind, that plant will grow. It'll grow nice. The second you expose it to elements, it's probably going to die. But if I take that same plant and I plant it outside, exposed to the elements, and it withstands hurricane winds and the heat and the cold, that thing is growing deeper roots and it's going to become a stronger plant. It's going to be a healthier plant.
--:-- Eric Garcia: It's the same thing with our thinking. If I live in a very protected bubble—this is why you see this all the time. People who grew up in very restrictive households, maybe a particular faith, they're not exposed to different ways of thinking. They go off to college and they go buck ass wild because they've never had to deal with adversity. They've never had to deal with other ways of thinking. And then all of a sudden, "Oh my gosh, what is this?" So anyway, all that to say, I think being challenged is not a bad thing at all. I think this is one of the most important concepts in our society today and things that we need to talk about as a group, as a collective, as individuals thinking through our own lives.
--:-- Host: I wrote a bunch of things down that you said, and I couldn't agree more with what you're saying. One clarifying question for you before I move into just a few other thoughts that I had. What is bad conflict? Because you said we need to have conflict in our life, and then you did a preface because you said it afterwards. But you said, "Not bad conflict." What constitutes that? How do you delineate between good conflict and bad conflict?
--:-- Eric Garcia: Okay. So this is not thought out at all, so that's okay. But I would say bad conflict is where—let's just keep it in the context of you and I arguing about some position of faith or some position of politics, because those are the two things that are the worst. I would say if we're entering the conversation and not in good faith, then it's bad conflict. That's what you see online. You see people engaging in arguments, and it's not in good faith.
--:-- Host: For those who may not know that term, what do you mean by "in good faith"?
--:-- Eric Garcia: Good faith means like, "Ryan, I disagree with you, and I think you're an idiot and a fool." That's in bad faith. "Ryan, I disagree with you. I want to learn more about why I disagree with you, but I recognize you as a human being who's smart and intelligent, and I want to understand what you believe and why you believe it." I'm entering that argument or that discussion in good faith.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Another good example of this would be where, say, Nikki Haley says that she's for the war in Ukraine and you don't realize that her entire family owns a military consulting company. It is in her personal best interest financially to have the war in Ukraine because then she gets paid and so do all her family members to go over and consult. We would call that conflicted.
--:-- Host: Yep. So that's a conflict of interest.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Yes. So I would call that—I don't know if that's necessarily in bad faith, but I would call that Nikki Haley—I'm assuming that's true if you're saying it.
--:-- Host: She's a shill for the military-industrial complex.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Yeah, we call that a conflict of interest. Trump has lots of conflicts of interest.
--:-- Host: You think? What do you think those are?
--:-- Eric Garcia: I mean—again, I'm not advocating—I've gotten some shit recently because people think I advocate for Trump. I'm not advocating for Trump. I'll be honest with you. The most fascinating thing for me about Trump is the psychology of Trump derangement syndrome. I'm just fascinated by it. I don't think he's the best candidate for our country as a whole. I wish we had better options. I think he's better than Biden by far. I mean, you're literally voting for the dark side of politics if you vote for Biden. He's a corpse.
--:-- Eric Garcia: But my point is, I actually don't even love Trump. If I thought he had a shot—and I will probably vote for him in New York because the freaking libs down in New York are going to vote for Biden no matter what—I probably would vote for RFK. I love RFK. I don't agree with everything RFK does, but you know what I love about RFK? Here's what I know: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. loves this country. He does. You don't have to agree with that. I think some of his thoughts on crypto, some of his thoughts on some other topics are a little off the wall. I think he has some odd views on some capitalistic things and taxes. However, in general, you know what I know for a fact? The dude makes his own decisions and loves this country.
--:-- Eric Garcia: I don't think you have to agree with every point that someone has to vote for them. For me at this point, considering other options, a pure and undying love for this country—even though he's a Democrat who's had to go independent because the Democrats are so fucking corrupt, it's not even funny. Anyone who wants to say Trump is corrupt is like—
--:-- Host: Can I pause you real quick?
--:-- Eric Garcia: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
--:-- Host: Give me a little pushback.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Yeah, yeah, yeah, please.
--:-- Host: That comment right there would make it very difficult for you to engage a conversation with a Democrat because you think they're all—
--:-- Eric Garcia: I don't think they're all corrupt. I think the Democrat Party is corrupt. I also think the Republican Party is corrupt.
--:-- Host: You don't think the Republicans are corrupt?
--:-- Eric Garcia: Oh, I do 100%. I think it's a uniparty. I think it's crazy. That's the thing that people don't understand. When I get shit for my views, it's literally I think they're all terrible. I think they're all awful, and I can't stand that these are the options or that our government—I don't think people quite realize how terrible and uniparty our government has become. They are all corrupted to a point where it's disgusting. It's literally disgusting where we've gotten to as a country.
--:-- Eric Garcia: I don't love Republicans. I was a registered Democrat my entire life until Obama's second term when I feel like he completely flipped on the reason I voted for him in 2008, which I did. I voted for Obama the first term. I felt during that first term, he did nothing except for the Affordable Care Act, which I think was a complete farce versus what he originally positioned it as. I no longer trusted him, and I hated that I had to vote Republican in the next election. I then was a registered independent until about a year ago when I became so disgusted with the Republican—I became registered independent. I'm still today registered independent. I never thought about registering as a Republican, but then I did more research on them, became so disgusted with them that I'm like, I can't stand any of these people. And I don't know what to do about it.
--:-- Host: I promise I'll shut up on this thing.
--:-- Eric Garcia: No, no, it's fine. This is good.
--:-- Host: So I am of an opinion though, and I'm really interested in your take on this. I am open about my political beliefs. I don't care if people don't like it. That's fine. You don't have to like my views. You don't have to agree with my views. I can still like other people. I have plenty of friends who have these liberal beliefs that I think are fucking bananas. What I do believe, though, is I think they believe that they have those views. So I reason—and that's what I've said—I'm completely cool. I can wholly and utterly disagree with your final decision if I believe that your initial reasoning for getting there was pure.
--:-- Host: If I believe you're trying to help people—like I'll take a given example, my sister. My sister is a hippie liberal and I can't stand her viewpoint because I think it's borderline Marxist. The problem is she's 33 years old. She has this pure saintly heart and all she wants to do is help people. She has been corrupted into believing that any of these scumbags, let alone the Democrats, are somehow the party of the nice people who are helping the little guys. I'm like, "Casey, you don't understand, your viewpoints are Marxist now."
--:-- Host: There are Democrats who have very pro-American views and I love those guys. I have no problem. It doesn't matter to me what party you're part of. But people get like—it doesn't bother me that she has the views she has. I don't agree with them because I know where it's coming from, this pure place of she wants to help the underdogs and help people.
--:-- Host: Let me get to my actual thought here. My thought is I feel like it is a complete and utter cop out, this "I don't follow politics" stuff, or "I don't get into politics" or "I'm not into politics." I'm like, you know what? You're a chicken shit. The reason our country is in the place that it is, with the dirtbags who are running our country on both sides and across the board, is because so many good people go, "Oh, I'm not into politics." I'm like, yeah, you're not being into politics is the reason we've gotten to where we are.
--:-- Host: We need to be able to go back to the point where, dude, I don't know exactly what your politics are. It could be completely different from mine. But you know what? I know you're a good person who cares about other people, and we should be able to have a conversation in which we disagree on topics. At the end of the day, we bro hug it out and it's all good. You still believe what you believe, and I still believe what I believe. It's all good because we're pointing in the same direction. Or maybe you moved me a little bit. Or maybe vice versa. Because we don't have all the answers. If we ever think that we have all the answers, then what fun is conversation?
--:-- Eric Garcia: I'm going to give you a good example of this. Well, let me tell you one comment. Then you said you were going to ask my opinion on something. So make sure you close this out with a question so I can respond to you. I'm not good at interviewing, dude.
--:-- Host: No, no, it's good.
--:-- Eric Garcia: But you got to ask me a question because you said so much and I don't want to just respond to things that are relevant. But here's why politics are important. Politics are important because politicians write policy. Policy is important because policy impacts people.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Here's what's interesting. This is something I've learned over the past 15 years just shutting up and listening, not necessarily sharing my opinion, but hearing from other people. Some people are going to hear me say this and go, "Oh, there goes Eric, he sounds like he's a liberal Democrat or whatever, blah blah blah." But what government does impacts you and I a lot less than it impacts people who are more marginalized.
--:-- Eric Garcia: The Affordable Care Act. If you go past universal healthcare, okay, big deal, my insurance goes up a little bit. But my business partner, who has an uninsurable condition, all of a sudden got insurance. Not only did he get insurance, last year he just had a double lung implant surgery, which would have been impossible if it wasn't for the Affordable Care Act. How many other people who are poor, who don't have access to healthcare, were impacted? Is it perfect? No, I'm not advocating for that. But think about that. Policy impacts people.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Right now, immigration. Does it really impact my day-to-day? Contrary to what some people say, there's not a bunch of illegal people running around murdering people. There are more Americans out there killing people than people who are here illegally. That's rhetoric that we hear. But policy directly impacts people who are immigrants, who were born here without documents. They're not citizens. They've lived their entire life here. They're in their early 20s and every day they're worried, "Oh my god, a policy is going to be written that's going to send me back to a country that—sure, that's where my parents were from—but I don't know that country. I've been in this country." Policy is important because it impacts people.
--:-- Eric Garcia: That's why it's really important to say—you say liberal Democrat, conservative Republican, whatever. Tell me what you believe, why you believe it. When you hear the compelling reason—my parents are Cuban. They came to this country. If you know any Cubans who came here in the 60s or even in the 80s, they're all going to be hardcore Republican for the most part. They love Trump. They love the strong man. I disagree with a lot of that. But when Obama became president, you talk to Cubans, they're like, "Oh my gosh, he's communist." "Why is he communist?" "He wants to do universal healthcare." "Why do you think that's communist?" "Because we had universal healthcare in Cuba and it sucks." Okay, well, that's jumping a little bit to big extremes here.
--:-- Eric Garcia: On the left they say, "Trump is Hitler." "Why is Trump Hitler?" "Because some of the things he says." Okay, maybe we're taking a few steps here. I don't know. But let's stop and let's listen. Like, why do you think that? Rather than me just saying, "I think you're crazy. I think you're stupid." I want to be like, "Why do you think that? I'm curious."
--:-- Host: Dude, I love this. This is what I'm talking about. Why we need to have these—why I think the "I don't follow, I don't talk about politics" thing is a complete chicken shit cop out. Because these are the nuanced conversations that we need to have.
--:-- Host: When I say I lost faith in Obama, I voted for Obama because I believed in the initial vision of the Affordable Care Act and what he was talking about, exactly what you just explained for your business partner and for other people. I've shared this in part, but I grew up in an incredibly poor town of less than 900 people. My friends used to refer to my house as the crack house. We had just enough to get by. There was never not food in my house, but we just got by. We did not have stuff. I didn't take a vacation until I paid for it myself. The first vacation I ever went on was in my 20s. First vacation I ever went on as a human was in my 20s.
--:-- Host: So I looked at these things, and this is why I was a Democrat for so long. What I knew of and was able to understand of Bill Clinton's—I know people can come in and say he did—in general, Bill Clinton was a pretty good—I know he made mistakes, and I'm not advocating for all this kind of stuff. Take away the Monica Lewinsky shit. Let's be honest. Take that away. The only president or one of the few presidents in modern history that didn't have any personal scandal was probably Obama. If you believe he married to—I mean, you look at him like his wife's a female, right? Some of these wackos out online believe these wacky things. But I agree with you. In general, you seem to be a family man with two kids. I actually don't believe Obama—what I believe is, I think Barack Obama in general is a good human who wanted to do the right things. What I think happened is he got into office and got absolutely corrupted.
--:-- Host: Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show. In exchange for that, I need your help. If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment if you're on YouTube, leave a rating review if you're on Spotify or Apple iTunes. This helps the show grow. It helps me bring more guests in. We have a tremendous lineup of people coming in, men and women who've done incredible things, sharing their stories around peak performance, leadership, growth, sales—the things that are going to help you grow as a person and grow your business. But they all check out comments, ratings, reviews. They check out all this information before they come on. So as I reach out to more and more people and want to bring them in and share their stories with you, I need your help. Share the show. Subscribe if you're not subscribed. I'd love for you to leave a comment about the show because I read all the comments. Or if you're on Apple or Spotify, leave a rating review of this show. I love you for listening to this show and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I do creating the show for you. All right, I'm out of here. Peace. Let's get back to the episode.
--:-- Host: By this, whatever this machine—dude, it's a monster. It's a machine. I think that he got absolutely leveraged by whatever this dark area of our government is that we hear about, see about, but don't necessarily understand. That guy standing on stage in 2006 when he first announced—he comes out and he gave that talk, that unifying, "It's not about black America, white America, it's about America." I'm butchering it a little bit. But that talk—you could not hear that talk and not have shivers if you believe in this country. You just couldn't. That was the vision that I grew up with.
--:-- Host: These ideas today that somehow our country is this racist hellscape where everything is based on gender is, in my opinion, completely manufactured. It's not the way I grew up. I grew up in an area where if racism was a big deal, it would have been a big deal in a minute. That's not to say that racism doesn't exist. Don't get me wrong. I have plenty of black friends, brown friends who would tell you. But my point is—I'll just finish this thought.
--:-- Host: I lost faith in him because I felt like he gave in to forces that were beyond his control. I do think he was, is a good guy and was trying his best and got absolutely snowballed. But if I were to say that in my Republican circle of friends, they would absolutely castrate me. They would say all the things—"He's a fucking Marxist," and this and this and this, and he did all these things. We can't have that discussion. To me, it's like we need to have it.
--:-- Host: I voted for Trump twice. I will probably vote for him again if I don't vote for RFK. But it is only because when I weigh the options, it is not because I like him. Do you think I think he's a great representation of our country? You're kidding me. But one, I think policy-wise, action-wise, he's actually much different than the things he says. And two, when weighed against the other options that we've been presented with so far, I have not seen the other option being better. But it's not because I like him. That's the problem. People immediately go, "Oh, you must be some sort of racist, homophobe, you hate women." I'm like, no, that's not the case at all. I just weigh him against these other options.
--:-- Eric Garcia: They can't say—you just said we're going to send the men into battle first because we need the women. You value—right?
--:-- Host: Yeah. Yeah. I do. Men are disposable. So what did you want my opinion on?
--:-- Eric Garcia: My opinion is—and I think what we're getting to this, and this was really my question—how do we start to wade through these things? How do you have these conversations in private, semi-public, public forums in a way that is productive, that doesn't become shouting, that doesn't become—I wrote something down while you were talking the first time: "The best argument is rarely the meme." I think this is part of the problem. We live in this society where everyone just throws memes at you. "Oh, wait, Eric, you believe in the Affordable Care Act? You must be a communist." And we throw this fucking meme at you. Here's how we have these conversations. You ready?
--:-- Host: Yeah. And I don't have faith that many people will do this.
--:-- Host: Right. But here's the secret. When we engage in conversation with anyone, especially on topics that are volatile and emotionally charged, number one, I think it helps to have a relationship with that person. Right. The stuff that happens online, man, like I don't even—I have a rule. I've got two rules when it comes to social media. Number one, never respond to anyone's political comments, even if I agree with them, and never post anything political. And if I post anything about faith or religion, it has to be from a very personal narrative from my experience. Not like "this is truth and everyone else is wrong." It's something specific about my faith and how it has impacted me and changed me. Because social media is not the platform to do it. We're avatars on social media. It's easy for us to say something really harsh to someone on social media that we would never tell you if we were staring you in the eye.
--:-- Eric Garcia: A hundred percent.
--:-- Host: So number one, how many people have you moved to your idea, to your camp, by yelling at them? My guess is very few. So why even bother? It's pointless. If I want to have a meaningful conversation with someone who I disagree with, the first thing I'm going to do is run to a point of commonality. I am going to get to know you. I want to know where you and I see eye to eye. "Oh man, you love your kids? I love my kids too. You sound like a good father." We have a point of refuge that we can come back to quickly if it starts going off the rails.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Let's say I'm pro-Trump. Okay? Hard pro. For the record, this is not the case. Let's say you are not just pro-Trump, but you're that 30 percent of hardcore white nationalist, the MAGA version of Trump. You are the caricature of Trump. And let's say I am not Biden. Let's say I am the caricature of the AOC Bernie camp. You and I, we don't—even hearing those words makes my skin crawl. But yes, I want it in a very extreme form.
--:-- Host: That's why this is a good thought experiment. I like it. Let's just say for the sake of argument, I'm the reasonable one. Not necessarily in beliefs, but in terms of wanting to get to know Ryan because I want to convince him. I'm not looking to attack. I'm here off of his—even if I don't pull him to my side, he's getting into some dangerous stuff here. The first thing I'm going to do is find a point of commonality between the two of us. What is it? Certainly, we are humans. We have lived the human experience. We've had pain. We've had joy. We've been part of families. We've been friends with other people. We've been in bad breakups. We've had hardship. I want to find that commonality, and I want to form a relationship with you. I want to get to know you. And then once I get to know you, I can ask questions like, "Hey Ryan, I'm really curious about this. Why do you believe this?" Because if I come to you like that, you're probably going to come off of your—pretty soon, you're not going to be as hard. You're not going to be as defensive. You're not going to be on the attack because you realize I'm not attacking you.
--:-- There's a really good story. I don't know if you've seen this. There's this black guy who's a musician. This was back in the maybe 80s or 90s, I think it was in Massachusetts. He was playing at a bar where there was a bunch of KKK guys. They would come and listen to his music. He befriended a member—not the Grand Master, but like the Grand Falcon, whatever. He befriended this guy. Over the years, this guy really liked his music. The black guy became friends with him. He actually went to a KKK meeting because the guy loved this musician. Long story short, this guy—I can't think of his name—but if you Google "black guy who KKK," you'll find a beautiful video on it. This dude has collected over 50 KKK robes. I think it's more than that, like 300.
--:-- Eric Garcia: So you've seen this?
--:-- Host: Yeah. What did he do? Here's this guy who is clearly hated by the KKK, yet found a point of commonality: music. He built a relationship with this guy. The KKK guy stopped attacking, was no longer defensive. The black dude was clearly incredibly gracious. In the end, he has changed the hearts of a lot of people. It probably came at a cost to him, and that's grueling. I imagine it's very difficult and patient work, but that's what I'm talking about. He was in his full—no one would have thought he was crazy to walk away and not do that. We think he's crazy for what he did, but that was a beautiful story.
--:-- There's this quote that I will eventually have tattooed on my body at some point. The end part of it is "grace upon grace." The full is "From his fullness, we have all received grace upon grace." I think about this quote a lot in my life because I obviously have the ability to be bombastic. I talk in hyperbole because I think it's fun and funny. But I also know—and I think for those who have had real conversations with me, not some of my more chaotic podcast conversations which I just find fun—I try very much to live in grace and be understanding. When we go back to this topic and think through these conversations, when I say I do honestly believe that it is cowardly to shy away from political conversations, conversations about religion, I do not mean the polar opposite. I do not mean we rush into these conversations and throw our views onto other people.
--:-- The number one thing that I struggle with the most about Christianity are Christians who take their—and this is obviously not what you do—but Christians who throw their belief on other people. You brought up abortion. I'm not going to go into that topic per se, but that is a topic that oftentimes at its extremes is fueled by a religious belief one way or the other. My point that I always bring up in that conversation is I don't have the answer. I'm not smart enough. I haven't done enough research. I struggle with it on both sides. I actually talk to my mom about it a lot because she's a really hardcore Christian. But my point is that we have to—I shouldn't say we have to—my hope is that in all conversations, be they silly conversations about the insurance industry, religious conversations, political conversations, et cetera, is that we divorce ourselves from telling others how to live. That we live exactly the way we want to live and that we'd be willing to share why we've decided to live that way, but we do not pontificate onto others why they should live the way we've chosen to live.
--:-- And dude, this goes for silly shit. I got lit up pretty good the other day talking about inbound marketing in the insurance industry. People get worked up about that. This might be worse than if I had brought up Trump or that God is real and everyone who doesn't believe is an asshole. You would think that me saying—and this is why it goes back to having grace for people. I put this little post to this little video, and my take on this particular topic was that when someone raises their hand and calls our business, we should solve their problem and round out accounts later. That was my take. Bro, you would have thought I was questioning—
--:-- Eric Garcia: For the record, I listened to that episode and I agree 100% with you. Solve people's—
--:-- Host: So this goes back to what we're talking about. In financial planning, when people hire me as their financial planner, if I come to them and say, "Okay Ryan, I'm your financial planner now, we're going to do estate planning, tax planning, all this stuff," they're like, "No dude, I just need you to help me figure out X, Y, and Z first." I call it financial triage. I was like, "What is the problem? Let me solve it." So you're hungry, right?
--:-- Eric Garcia: I want to make three points about the verse you referenced, "grace upon grace," the quote you referenced. But it's like if I want to share a message with you—let's say I'm a Christian and I want to share a message with you, and you're hungry. I come to you and you're like, "Hey dude, do you have food for me?" I say, "No, but I got this really good message for you." The message is good, I think it's a good message, but you're hungry. Feed me. Let me satisfy your need. Let me get to know your name. Let me get to know what's important for you. Then let me share my message with you. There's something real there. Solve the problem first. You can say, "Well, the problem is Ryan doesn't believe in Jesus and he needs to." I get it. But we forget that we're supposed to live in community with each other. We're supposed to live in relationship. The world isn't these one-off interactions. I get to know you. I live in community with you. You see me live. I see you live. Let's say I'm living my life right and you're struggling. I'm there like, "Ryan, you're making bad decisions." One day you're going to come to me and say, "Eric, I need your advice on something," because we've been living in relationship. We've been living in community with each other. I think that's really important when we're having these conversations.
--:-- I have no problem talking politics and religion. When people say don't talk politics and religion, I say, "Well, how am I supposed to really know you?" If there's anything that shapes us, we're all being shaped by something. We're either being shaped by our faith or we're being shaped by the secular world that is just doing its own thing. We're being shaped. And I want to know what shape—
--:-- Host: I'm going to give you an example of this. I had someone reach out to me recently about taking a full-time position at their company. I told him I had reservations about that. It wasn't a hard no, but I had reservations. I wrote them this letter, and I finished the letter by saying this: I gave him five reasons why they should not hire me. I said, "This isn't me saying I don't want to work with you, but here are five things you should consider before you bring me in." I listed these five things. The last thing was this: "I believe strongly in the original values of the American Experiment, Constitution, and Bill of Rights. I skew towards a conservative mindset, and every decision I make is passed through a filter of Judeo-Christian values. If those things offend you, then we need to have a conversation about that." My point was not to get political or religious, but I wanted to be very clear that these are the filters I use. The heuristics that allow me to operate my life. These are what they are.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Have you ever had a podcast before where "heuristics" was used twice?
--:-- Host: No, but I love that word. To your point, I just got to a point in my life where I wanted to be upfront. "This is what you're getting if you bring me in. If you really want me, this is who you're getting. Don't commit and then be like, 'We can't believe you're this thing.' I'm like, 'This is what I am.'"
--:-- Eric Garcia: Even in your statement—"these are my filters"—if you tell me that, I'm not going to push back, but my follow-up question would be, "Okay, what do you mean by conservative?" Because I don't even know what that means anymore. And second, "Tell me more about the values, the Judeo-Christian values, that you use as a filter," because human history is littered with people who have picked and chosen which values they want. I'm not saying this is you.
--:-- Host: That's why I use the word "filter" and not "rules." Because one, I'm a highly imperfect person. Even if I would love to live in perfect harmony with some of these ideas, I don't always, because I'm not perfect. That's the journey we're on. We're sojourners. Another reason I use "filters" is because filters can be changed. I can change out a filter fairly easily from my life. If something's not working for me—let's say a staunch, pure capitalistic filter that's normally associated with conservative viewpoints has been my life—I don't believe in that. I actually think we need to have baseline social services and financial safety nets, which would be off of a standard conservative Republican viewpoint. That's why I'm not a Republican. While I think some of those programs get corrupted, I very much believe they're important. Social safety nets are important to the longevity and sustainability of our society. So they're filters, not hard and fast rules.
--:-- Eric Garcia: I want to make my three points because they're really good.
--:-- Host: Hit me with your three points.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Before I make those three points, I want to say one thing. When you think of capitalism, who are some of the fathers of capitalism that you think about?
--:-- Host: Well, Hamilton is obviously the original, but I don't know more than some baseline reading about his viewpoints. I think of the really hardcore guys like the Robert Barons, the railroad guys.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Before that. You think even before that? Adam Smith. Adam Smith is an interesting story if you follow his life. He grew up on the coast watching the market, so he watched the marketplace. It's really interesting to hear his thoughts. Adam Smith has another book we never hear about called *The Theory of Moral Sentiments*. I've looked at it, and it is a book I probably would never read because it is very, very difficult. The language is very difficult. But if you go listen to some summaries on it, it's exactly what you said. We hold Adam Smith as the father of capitalism, but he held some beliefs that people would say, "Whoa, that is not capitalistic."
--:-- Host: Just one more: Machiavelli. I wrote my three points down so I won't forget them.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Everyone references Machiavelli all the time. If you actually read *The Prince* and then read some of his other writings, his quotes, ideas, and concepts are so commonly misconstrued. It is often never put in context. It's this "kill or be killed" mentality, which he was framing only in scenarios where those types of actions were necessary to be successful. All he was doing was saying in the real world, sometimes you have to go to war. If you're going to go to war, here's some ways to actually win wars. People reference him as this evil guy. This goes back to "the best argument is often not the meme." We create these memes for ideas or for individuals or for what they stand for, and they are very rarely the full context version of what someone actually believed or what they were trying to say.
--:-- Host: Context. If you're reading anything—one of my goals this year is to read more dead people.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Ooh, I love that.
--:-- Host: People who are no longer here but their ideas have—
--:-- Eric Garcia: What would be one or two that are on your list?
--:-- Host: I'm always trying to read a little bit more of Jesus. That's always on the list. I recently read a biography on Justin the Martyr, who was an early 200-300 philosopher. He dabbled in Stoicism, Pythagoreanism—there were these math cults—and he ended up on Christianity. He's fascinating.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Well, Jesus wasn't Stoic.
--:-- Host: Not totally. My conjecture is that he grew up in Rome—obviously he is the Son of God. First of all, the Stoics don't—typical Stoic philosophy. I'm not saying he was a Stoic. But that's like saying Jesus was Buddhist because some of his teachings align.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Stoicism was one of the prevailing philosophical concepts at the time in which he lived. Stoicism had a really, really high moral standard. Stoics were super moral. They tended to be ascetics in some cases. They didn't overdrink. They were very moralistic and ethical. So there's tons of overlap and commonality. I didn't mean to blaspheme there.
--:-- Host: That's not blasphemy. In fact, there's a part in Acts, chapter 17, where Paul is in the synagogues reasoning with the teachers, the rabbis. Then in the next verse, he's talking to the poets and the Stoics. Then in the next verse, he's in the marketplace talking to the common people. This is really interesting. Point of commonality. Paul is spreading this message in a very cosmopolitan town. He's in the marketplace, and it says there are statues to all these gods, and there's one statue to the unknown God. Paul says, "Wow, y'all have all these gods. That's amazing. You're clearly a very faithful people. You even have a statue to an unknown god. Let me tell you about this unknown god. His name is Jesus." He came in, found this point of commonality, and then shared his message. Really cool.
--:-- Eric Garcia: All right, hit me with three points. We're way over time.
--:-- Host: So context. Everything has to be read in context. You said something about Christians who just share this message hardcore—
--:-- Eric Garcia: I didn't mean all Christians.
--:-- Host: No, no, no. I'm not getting defensive. Just to be clear for the audience, I know you're not. You talked about your tattoo you wanted to get: "grace upon grace." We're told that Jesus was full of grace and truth. I think what happens—and you can take this outside of Christianity—sometimes we're just full of truth. We come at you hard, pointing out everything we see in your life that is untrue or wrong, with no grace. And then sometimes we come in just full of grace: "Oh Ryan, I love you. You made a bad decision, but it's okay." At some point, I need to introduce truth. So it's grace and truth. It's both. Not just one or the other. I was thinking about that when you said "grace upon grace."
--:-- The second point I wanted to make: You've heard of the fruits of the Spirit, right? Our kids learn how to sing it. Paul talks about it. I think there's seven fruits of the Spirit. Do you know what's not a fruit of the Spirit? For those listening who might not know what that means, as Christians, we believe that when we put our faith in Jesus, we are given the Holy Spirit as our helper to help us work through this life. He lives in us and helps us become who we should become. It doesn't mean we're perfect people, but that's the beautiful thing about Christianity: God has come to us and we have access to Him now. It's not something we're trying to attain. He lives with us through the Spirit. The fruits of the Spirit—what is not on the list, ironically enough, is truth. Truth is not on the list. Love, joy, peace, faithfulness, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control.
--:-- Host: Is that because it's subjective?
--:-- Eric Garcia: I don't know. Do you think truth is subjective? Do you think Paul was saying that truth is subjective, that the truth of Jesus is subjective?
--:-- Host: I don't know how two things can be both true that are mutually exclusive of each other.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Then what is "my lived truth"? Is that a made-up term?
--:-- Host: No, I don't think it's a made-up term. That's an honest question. I think that statement is indicative of our times where we want to become our own little god. "What's true for me is true for me," but it'd have to be true for you, right? So I'm going to live out my truth. I think that's more of a modern idea. We live in a world where we are very individualistic, particularly in the West. We are very suspicious of institutions. For most of modern history, we were part of institutions, right, wrong, or indifferent. But now we live in a world where we can do what we want, how we want. So we're going to live out our truth. I honestly believe a large contributing factor to the rise in depression is the fact that we have moved away from institutions. We would have to categorize and contextualize institutions because I think they get convoluted. People will say the FBI is an institution. That's not what we're talking about. I think this lack of sense of community as we've grown so distrustful of institutions is a large contributor to the depression we feel today. And then we justify our depression through this idea of "lived truth" or made-up terms and ideology. Then we start to create false gods around things like, on the right, MAGA-ism, and on the left, woke-ism. People are facing the same problems, trying to find meaning in their life that used to come from—
--:-- Eric Garcia: So what are you pushing back on? I didn't hear you push back on anything I said.
--:-- Host: I wasn't pushing back. I was sharing a thought in my head because I agree with you wholeheartedly.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Here's what I would say. We're getting into philosophy and we can go on for 17 more hours, and that's okay. My calendar is clear because I knew I was going to be talking to you. I have a problem when someone says "what's true." Certainly there are things that are not mutually ethical. There are things we have to hold in tension, and perspective. It's really hard. Ryan says this, I disagree with him. Is he wrong? Am I right? I don't know. Both things could possibly be right, or we just have to hold it in tension. But if I say that Jesus is the Son of God and you say he was just a prophet, those two things are mutually exclusive. I'm wrong or you're right. If you say, "I'm going to live out my truth believing Jesus was just a prophet," and I say, "I'm going to live out my truth believing Jesus was the Son of God," those things are mutually exclusive. We live in a secular country and we live in relationship with people who hold these two things, and we can live in harmony with each other. But I would say where you're wrong and I'm right, or I'm right and you're wrong. That's just the way it is. So when I hear "live out my truth," I want to know what you mean by that. Tell me what you mean by that.
--:-- Host: I don't mean anything. I think it's ridiculous. And I get it—sometimes there's something really beautiful about that. But "my truth for me is I like to travel a lot. I'm going to live out my truth." "My truth for me is I think it's okay to steal if I really need something." Whoa, time out. No, you can't do that. What if they're really hungry? Now we start getting into some really interesting ethical debates. So "my truth, your truth." I think it's important to have these conversations. We're all being shaped by something. If you say, "I'm going to live out my truth," what are you being shaped by? I don't want to be shaped by my own emotions. Emotions are terrible masters. Oftentimes when we say "I want to live out my truth," it's—if someone here listening says that, I'm not saying you're a bad person, but stop and think. What does that mean? "I want to do what I want to do how I want to do it. I am mastered by my emotions."
--:-- Eric Garcia: Have you read *The Untethered Soul*? By Michael Singer?
--:-- Host: Michael Singer. *The Untethered Soul*. He does a very good job of removing this. The argument he makes—he weaves in some Judeo-Christian stuff, he weaves in some Buddhist stuff, but that's not the point of the book. He never lays on either one. The point of the book at a very high level—and I think this would be required reading if you're interested in improving your philosophy and psychology—is that he lays out an argument for the detachment of the soul from your mind and your body. I think this is one of the most crucial aspects of living a healthy, happy, consistently healthy and happy life as much as is possible day to day. We're all going to have ups and downs. The reason I believe that is because for exactly what you just said: your mind, your emotions, your feelings are your mind's way of sending data points to your soul. It doesn't mean those data points are right. We should listen to them. It's like a dashboard on your car. When that check engine light goes off, I better listen to it. Our body is the same way. You have some pain. Is that pain like you're dying, or is that pain from doing a ton of curls and your biceps are bulging? What is that? What he lays out is this idea that emotions, feelings, that voice that you hear is not you. When we hear a voice in our head, that is not us. That is our mind speaking to us and giving us data points. Same thing with our body. To be able to extract ourselves from that allows us to see them for what they actually are: important and valid data points. But like any experiment, you take the data points in, and when you're detached from them, right?
--:-- Host: Like people always say, detached from the outcome in sales. It's the same kind of thing, right? Detach yourself from these. See them for what they are. And you can actually operate in the real world where instead you get your mind – you see a negative – you see somebody post something that's the opposite political party from you, and your mind is flooded with all these senses of urgency and hate and anger and frustration. All of a sudden, you're angry and frustrated because someone posted a meme on Instagram from the opposite political party.
--:-- Host: And you're in here, assuming – let's play along here. Let's say you would say that you are a Christian. And you're getting that angry. As Christians, we're called to put on the mind of Christ, to become like Christ. That's the journey that we're on: how do I become more like Jesus? How was Jesus? Jesus was kind, but he was also strong. Jesus was revolutionary. If you read it in context, Jesus said some things that were really jarring to the culture at large.
--:-- Host: So here Jesus is about to be crucified on the cross. We're in Lent. We're about to have Easter by the time maybe this publishes. We'll be in Easter. One of the things I think about anytime I'm in conversation with someone who wants to hurt me or I disagree with: Jesus' words as he is being spit on and beaten on his way to be crucified, he says, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Could you imagine that? Here Jesus is saying, "God, forgive these guys. I don't know what they're doing. They're beating me. They are just acting out of pure ignorance. Forgive them."
--:-- Host: So here is some dude posts a meme online that pisses me off and I'm going to get all angry? Man, bless his heart. God, forgive that guy. Ryan doesn't know what he's talking about. Or just let it go by. We're all being shaped by something. What are we shaped by?
--:-- Host: So again, to go back to the second point, truth. I'm not saying truth isn't important. We know truth is important. All I'm saying is the fruit of the spirit are words that the right might label liberal. "Oh, look at that liberal. He's so kind and gentle and self-controlled, patient." This is how our lives should bear this fruit. I should be patient. I should exhibit self-control. I should exhibit kindness and goodness. What does kindness look like? Kindness is elevating you, taking care of you, not hurting you.
--:-- Host: But that doesn't happen in our culture. So to go back to your original question of how do we have these conversations? If I'm gentle with people, if I'm kind with people, if I'm self-controlled – I'm feeling angry right now, my emotions are high right now – let me exhibit self-control. Let me take a deep breath. Let me spend a couple minutes contemplating my day or meditating over my day. What were those times of high emotion and low emotion? What happened? Oh, this happened. It really pissed me off. How can I change that? Oh, did I hurt someone that I didn't mean to because of my emotions? Let me go back and seek out Ryan's forgiveness.
--:-- Host: Even if I disagree with him, you want to talk about being able to have conversation with someone you disagree with? Go to them humbly and say, "Ryan, we were talking and I know we'll probably never agree. But the way I talked to you was demeaning and demoralizing. I totally robbed you of all your dignity. And I'm sorry. Do you forgive me?" You want to talk about having the opportunity to share what you believe with someone? That's big.
--:-- Host: So I want to wrap up for a couple different reasons. But I want to leave you with this and just have you react. I went and saw Jordan Peterson's newest tour, "We Who Wrestle with God." It's phenomenal. Absolutely highly recommend it. What brought me back to – I've always been a Christian, but I probably stepped away from the faith in a practicing stance for a lot of my 20s, just our own journeys and things happen. Jordan Peterson is very much the individual who brought me back. He has a series on Genesis, 18 episodes, two hours long a piece, where he breaks down Genesis in his podcast from like 2017, 2018. It's absolutely phenomenal. It brought me back to God essentially, in a practicing way. Not that I feel like I ever lost it, but it brought me back to a practicing stance.
--:-- Host: So I went and saw Jordan Peterson live, his new tour. Took my girlfriend. We sat front row. Got to meet him, shake his hand. It was amazing. But what I wanted to say to you is – not to the God part – I believe that Jordan Peterson is one of the best at working through an argument. I don't mean it in the conflicting way. I mean it in developing a thought process in our brain. He uses a two-step process that he has never described, but it's how I've broken down his process. What I love about Jordan Peterson the most is not actually his conclusions, it's how he gets there. He uses the Socratic method followed by a steel man technique.
--:-- Host: So what he does is he will create an argument – God exists – and then he'll work through the method. If this, then what? If this, then what? If this, then what? To the point where he gets to a conclusion on that argument. Then before he pins that argument on the wall as what he believes to be truth, he will steel man the other side of the argument all the way down through the Socratic method. If this, then that. If this, then that. And then he puts those two things next to each other. By the time you get there, if you can't steel man the other side of the argument, then you don't truly believe in what you believe. That's his thought process.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Could you define – I know what you mean by steel man. This is kind of what we were talking about this entire conversation, right? The best argument is typically not the mean. Can you define steel man?
--:-- Host: So let's say that you brought up the fact that you think the Affordable Care Act is a good thing. If I was going to straw man your argument, I'd be like, "That's because you're a Marxist." That's straw manning your argument. That's taking the lowest common denominator version, a huge logic leap, and applying something wholly negative and universal to the top of it. That isn't actually what you believe. Steel manning your argument would be: "Eric is a kind Christian who believes in people and understands that not everyone comes from the same economic or emotional situation or societal situation that I do. There are certain circumstances in which having a backstop around healthcare are incredibly important. And while he may believe that it's not the perfect solution, it is the best solution that we currently have to make sure as a society we're taking care of our people." That would be steel manning. What's the best possible argument for that? Straw manning is "you're a Marxist bastard." Steel manning is "you're a kind, caring person who, while you may believe there are flaws in this system, believes it's the best option that we have."
--:-- Host: If you can't steel man – everyone can straw man an argument – but if you can't steel man your opponent's argument, you don't actually understand it, and your argument is less valuable. So what I have started trying to do in all things, even going back to the trivial inbound versus outbound in the insurance industry conversation, and it's why I brought Charles Speck on the podcast and did that argument with him. I wanted to be able to steel man the other side of inbound for people so that they understood why I believed in inbound so much and show the other case. I think that if we do this in good faith, we can have deep, rich, meaningful conversations about high energy topics such as politics and religion and other things. But we have to be able to understand where the other person is coming from.
--:-- Eric Garcia: So you started talking about Jordan Peterson and you talk about his Socratic method for working through an argument. I'm keeping you on tabs here, man. You wanted me to react to something? What do you want me to react to? Because I want to react. I just don't know what you want me to react to.
--:-- Host: I hate that you hold me to that because I'm so bad at finishing.
--:-- Eric Garcia: No, I think my thought process is – I guess my question is – I don't know that I have a question there. What do I think about Jordan Peterson? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where do you want the question?
--:-- Host: I just, sometimes when you said something that just hit me so strongly in terms of my agreement with what you said, I couldn't help but share his process. Because I feel like he's one of those guys that gets straw manned a lot. And when you really dig into his work, I think he's one of the most important thinkers of our time.
--:-- Eric Garcia: I'll be in full disclosure. I don't know a ton about Jordan Peterson.
--:-- Host: He's a clinical psychologist by trade.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Yeah. So when you deal with guys who are philosophers – and he's a psychologist, he's a modern day philosopher – I think it's really important. With philosophers, you really have to read a body of their work to understand them. You can't read a philosopher at a point in time in their life because they're not always moving, but they're always moving. Their arguments are changing. They're becoming more sophisticated in how they understand things. The way they present things are different. So I haven't listened to Jordan Peterson enough to form a complete opinion about what I think about Jordan Peterson. But I will say this: I do like how you broke it up. I do think that's a good way if you're thinking through philosophical stuff. I think you have to think about it that way.
--:-- Eric Garcia: I like how Jordan Peterson sometimes will think out loud. That's what's hard with philosophers. They think out loud and you're trying to follow them. Sometimes you can't always follow them. I listened to one of his podcasts recently to listen to it on an airplane just because I want to be educated on him. This particular podcast was probably the wrong one for me to listen to because he kind of meandered. I'm like, "Dude, just get to your point. What are you trying to say?" But I think wrestling with stuff is important. So I love the fact that you said Jordan Peterson brought you back to your faith or helped strengthen your faith. Because I think whenever we're wrestling with a truth, it's really important.
--:-- Eric Garcia: What I would say – and I've heard some people kind of – I think with humans, we've got to be really careful how we elevate certain people. Because as Christians, the goal is not to become like Jordan Peterson. It's to become like Jesus. There are some people who were very influential in my life, and I look back and some of those people have done terrible things. Some people I've never known personally, they were kind of mentors through books, and come to find out they're just creepy people who did some terrible things. And like, "Oh my gosh." So when we put our faith in humans, we can be let down.
--:-- Eric Garcia: But people – my relationship with you, because of this, and this might not be my relationship with everyone because everyone's not a professing Christian – but my relationship with you, our relationship together, should be one that helps us become more like Jesus. We're loving, more kind. We should become more hopeful for other people. We should become encouraging. The hard parts, the bombastic parts of us probably need to be shaved a little bit. They probably need to be filed down a little bit. Because why would I want something in me that's edgy to prevent me from being in a position to point you towards something that's good for you?
--:-- Host: I think you're very right. And I'm calling you out on your podcast.
--:-- Eric Garcia: No, no, no. I think you're right. Just think about your life. You're 43 now. Today's your birthday. As you look back, there's things like, "Man, when I was 20, I did some stupid stuff. I said some stupid stuff." When you're 60, when I'm 60 – and I'm not speaking as like I've got it all – when I was 42, I said some stupid stuff, just so we're all clear. That's the thing. We're on a journey. That's why grace. That's the beautiful thing about the Christian faith. God is graceful.
--:-- Eric Garcia: One of the things I love most about reading dead people – I read a bunch of Mother Teresa once. It doesn't matter if you're a Christian or not, you know her name as just this amazing servant of marginalized people in Calcutta, the poorest of the poor. You read some of her writings, it would blow you away. She talks about, "The closer I get to God, the more I realize I'm a sinner." Who in their right mind would look at Mother Teresa and say, "God, she's a sinner"? She would. Crazy. "The more I learned about God, the more I realized I don't know him." This is Mother Teresa. So we're on this journey that should never run. Paul even talks about, "I'm running the race. I'm running this race and I hope to finish."
--:-- Host: I completely agree, dude. I got to wrap up. I think I could go for another three hours. I love this stuff. I think that every time – and I'm going to say this with all sincerity – every time you and I have a conversation, I feel like I come away having questioned in the most positive way, in the absolute most positive way, things that I do that I want to continue to improve that I haven't put enough effort into. Please take that as the ultimate compliment that I could give you. This didn't have anything to do with anything that we originally set out to do. What were we supposed to talk about? Have we started recording yet? I have no idea. But dude, I just appreciate the hell out of you. I think our conversations are wonderful, and I enjoy every single one of them. So thank you so much.
--:-- Eric Garcia: Awesome, man. I appreciate you. I'm going to shop booze. Thank you. Thank you. I'll see you next time.
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