RHS 034 - Carey Wallace Explains How to Put Agent & Association Data to Work

Ryan Hanley: Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. My name is Ryan Hanley. I am your host as always and today our guest is Kerry Wallace, someone that I have an incredibly high amount of respect and esteem for and was just excited to get on the podcast and talk through what she's doing today.

Ryan Hanley: I met Carrie when she was the COO of OIA, the Ohio Insurance Agents Association. She's always done an incredible job. OIA is a standard bearer for what an association can do and should do for the independent agents that they serve. Now, Kerry has taken that and parlayed it into being the CEO of Intel Agents, an association-driven data initiative. It takes data from both agents and from the state associations and combines all that information to deliver insights and best practices and effective data resources that agencies can use to increase their efficiency, their output, and ultimately their valuation.

Ryan Hanley: Carrie is a tremendous resource for our industry. It was such a pleasure to have her on the show, and I'm happy to be able to share her insights with you. Before we get there, we got to pay the bills. We got to talk about my friends at Tarmica. Tarmica is making all your wildest comparative rating dreams come true with their platform. It's API driven. You're getting real time quotes back from carriers that you can then access directly into those carrier systems. You're not dealing with screen scraping where the rate comes back different from what you initially quoted. Tarmica is solving that problem.

Ryan Hanley: The thing that initially drew me to Tarmica is that a lot of people I have tremendous respect for are in the Tarmica ecosystem. That is one of the primary signs to me that a piece of technology has a real shot of helping agents. There are certain people that don't get involved in projects if they don't have the best interest of agents in mind. That's what initially drew me there. Then I saw the tech and now I am days away from having my installation ready. I just can't wait to get to work with Tarmica in my own agency, Rogue Risk. Go to T-A-R-M-I-K-A.com, Tarmica. Check out Tarmica today. Get a demo. If you like it, use it. If you don't, whatever. But if you do, and I think you will, I think there's a there there.

Ryan Hanley: All right, guys, with that, let's get on to Kerry Wallace on the Ryan Hanley show. Let's do this.

Kerry Wallace: I would never, ever change those days for anything under the sun. Honestly, I'm in startup boat here too. So if you ever want to commiserate on the startup life, I am your girl.

Ryan Hanley: Well, I'm going to take you up on that sometime. It's been very interesting. I've said this on so many podcasts already, and I'll probably say it a hundred more times, but I never gave the insurance technology, how hard it actually is to piece it all together, its due. I gave it lip service for sure, but never actually gave it its due because it is difficult to piece it all together.

Ryan Hanley: Here's the thing. It's not just technology. If you're an independent agent, you're an entrepreneur. You got to pick who are the partners you want to have. What's the staff look like? What's the technology look like? What niche am I going to go after? It's not like anyone says, "Here's the road to success. Just do these five things and you're going to be fine." It looks and feels different in every town, every agency. I love what you're doing, but I love learning about independent agents because they are some of the smartest people and some of the gutsiest people I think I've gotten to spend time with. Anyway, I'm super excited for you, Ryan.

Ryan Hanley: Oh, well, thanks. Independent agencies really are unique snowflakes. Up until maybe a couple years or so, I started to really get a feel for this, but probably up until I started this process, I did not quite realize how many different ways that you could piece together an agency, all the various decisions you had to make, and most importantly, how each decision played off of each other. You choose exactly this CRM, well this CRM really only works with these agency management systems and it doesn't do this thing that you really want. And even that's way down the pipeline because what you really want to start with is what kind of agency do you want to be? What kind of clients do you want? What do you want your lifestyle to be? And then all the technology drips out of that. But then one of those pieces of technology doesn't work with this thing over here. It is like all these moving parts that are constantly moving around each other.

Ryan Hanley: There was definitely a week or two where that got to me a little bit, where I let it kind of start to frustrate me. I started to just be like, "Man, this is driving me nuts." And then I just said, "Screw it. I'm just going to start making decisions." Once I started doing that, things started to figure themselves out. Right or wrong, I have a tech stack and I have a target client and I have some marketing copy. In the next week, I'll be in market selling policies.

Kerry Wallace: That's fantastic. Here's the thing. If you actually wait for all the right decisions to come to you, you never make a decision. That's the problem. They are so interconnected and there are consequences, upsides and downsides to every single decision. But the beauty is you're the entrepreneur, you're the one that gets to do this. You got to live with some of the decisions and some of them you can remake at some point, but you can't just not make a decision. That's not going to work.

Kerry Wallace: I'm very excited for you. I'm very interested as I watch you share the experience for others because I've heard those stories in offices, but no one's really outwardly talking about it in the same way that you're doing. It's super refreshing. Thank you for sharing your journey.

Ryan Hanley: Oh, well, thanks. I don't know that I should be thanked because I'm hoping I don't direct people. I've tried to be very cognizant of not trying to direct people. Today I produced a video about choosing a market access provider and I chose Indium. Indium comes with trade-offs. There's a lot of positives, obviously, and there's a whole reason why I chose them. But then there's things that you're trading and there's decisions inside of them. I don't want to say "I chose this, so you're stupid if you don't make the same decision as me." I'm trying to be very cognizant not to say that. I'm trying to give people constructs or thought experiments that they can go through to come up with their own decision, whatever that decision ends up being. And then walking through the decision I made.

Ryan Hanley: The really hard part about all of this is the people side. You want to choose an agency management vendor. Well, there are really good people at every agency management system. If you choose one, I don't want to alienate someone else. I've become friends with so many people coming from the other world. That's probably the hardest part. I like doing business with people that I really like. That actually made the decision. This is maybe my best piece of advice for anyone: do business with people you like, even if the tool isn't perfect. Doing business with people you like is so much more fun and interesting and productive than trying to pick the perfect tool but working with people who aren't as invested in your success.

Kerry Wallace: I would probably add to that, Ryan. Do business with people you like, but definitely that you can trust and are aligned with what's important to you. We live in a world where if you can't find that alignment, you can have the best product in the world. But if there's no trust and no alignment in why you're doing what you're doing and what you might do with the information you share, then that's far worse than having a tool that may have some limitations. Know, like, and trust is important. There's a reason people do business with people they know, like, and trust. I couldn't agree more.

Kerry Wallace: It's funny, some of what you're saying. I live in a world where we have a ton of people. I meet a ton of people and I like all of them. There's not many demos that weren't absolutely beautiful. But we have to be able to be fairly agnostic, but give our agents the insights we can provide to help them navigate some of the decisions you're talking about. You choosing a market access provider had pros and cons. We were able to put it in data and say, "What's your average commission rate compared to other agencies that have made different decisions? What's the impact on your agency?" I'm not here to tell you which one's right or wrong. I'm here to tell you this is what the universe looks like. This is what it looks like related to you. Here's the insight so you can make some decisions about your business. We're here to help you make those decisions or help bounce ideas off of. I feel the same way. I will never tell an agent the perfect way to do this is choosing X, Y, and Z. That's not how this works at all.

Ryan Hanley: Do you think that that is a bit of a pendulum, that mentality? I completely agree with that mentality. The other side of that is the influencer market who are like, "Here's how you do this. You want to sell 10 more of these, do this thing." It's very much like, "Here's the exact way to do it." I feel like giving people frameworks, constructs to make the decision that's right for them is a far more advantageous way to help people than to just tell them what to do.

Kerry Wallace: I couldn't agree more. I just couldn't agree more. Here's the thing. I think the agency of the future are the people that can marry relationships with technology and data. With the data part, there are metrics that are real. You do so many of this, it's going to have this kind of outcome as long as you have the right technology in place and the right people and they're trained the right way. The beauty is there are other factors. There's a culture to consider. There are people to consider. There are relationships to consider. There is no perfect recipe. There are only these guides to say, "Here's a benchmark or here's a gut check for you." But there is gray in the decisions that you're making. Anyone who tells you that it's all black and white, I'd be aware of that because they don't understand the business we're in.

Ryan Hanley: The other part of this that I find so interesting, and I want to get into what you're doing and talk more about everything that you have going on. Starting this agency now at this point in my life is a very odd experience. I was an agent and then I went into this other world where everything is on a national level, meeting thousands of agents, many of which are very successful, deep into their careers. Now coming all the way back to the beginning, it's odd. A piece of advice that I would give to someone who's five years in, I could never make that decision today. Indium, right? If I'm five years in or I'm pulling a book over and I already have a book that's substantial size, maybe I don't go with a market access provider. Maybe I don't do that. Maybe I still do. But today, it was almost a necessity to get to certain markets without having all these demands from all these different carriers, but to still be able to provide a decent portfolio of markets. It was an absolute necessity.

Ryan Hanley: My point in saying that is at each stage of this business, the decisions become very different as well. It's not like you can just pick something and grow into it. There are constantly evolving stages of what we do based on how you're building your agency. A mutual friend of ours, Jason Cass, he's kind of going the other way. He's moving his business from being a home and auto shop to more of a large mid-market commercial shop. He's reducing the number of clients he has and that's changing things. It's just so interesting how unique an independent insurance agency is based on so many different inputs that lead to your uniqueness. It's been very eye opening. I've developed even more respect for the people that do this work.

Kerry Wallace: I couldn't agree. Here's the thing, Ryan. You might make the same decision in a different stage or life cycle of your business, but it could be for a completely different reason. Or you could make the opposite decision 10 years from now. Just like you said, Jason Cass made the decisions he made in order to grow his business to where it is today, where now he has different opportunities, different risks, different factors to consider, which lead him to a completely different decision.

Kerry Wallace: The agent of the future needs to know when to evolve, how to evolve, and what things to be constantly asking. Our marketplace is changing as rapidly as all these decisions face every single agent that's trying to run an agency. We want to be in a place where we can help an agent navigate. If I want to change, where do I start? Where are the opportunities within my agency? What are some things I should be thinking about? Another really good mutual friend of ours, Jeff Roy, said data is only good unless you put it into action. Data is just data otherwise. I love that your thinking is that way because this is not a set it and forget it business. This is a set it, live with it, adjust, measure it, adjust, measure. That's the business you're getting in.

Kerry Wallace: I love that you're sharing the journey because maybe the agents that have been in this business for a long time might rethink and say, "Maybe I should be adjusting and rethinking some of the things that I decided. Maybe there's some opportunity here that I haven't seen." It's fun to watch.

Kerry Wallace: Let's talk a little bit about you. I first met you as the chief operating officer at OIA, the Ohio Insurance Agents Association. That was the first time when it was combined? Or was it before it was combined? When did you join?

Ryan Hanley: I joined in 2009. I was there well before Big I and PIA came together. I met you the year after we merged, I believe.

Kerry Wallace: At the time I was serving as the CFO. My background is finance. One of the big things that I got to experience was being able to merge the state affiliates of PIA and Big I. We met right after that. I've been here for 10 years. My job has completely evolved since then.

Ryan Hanley: Before we get to Intel Agents, which I am incredibly interested in, I've been watching from afar and I want to spend most of our time talking about that. I just have a couple of questions from your time at OIA. Watching and being around you guys, being in a couple of the events and knowing so many of your people well, it's by far one of, if not the most successful merger of the two association groups into one. OIA has been one of the most progressive and forward thinking and supportive and willing to experiment. You guys have really done some dynamic things and been a standard bearer for what a state association can be and do for their agent members. What do you think attributed to that? What was that like to be in there, work through that merger, and then come out of it and be so productive?

Kerry Wallace: Thank you for that. I appreciate it. I think the key to why that went the way that it did is because agents were 100% always put first. As we worked through that process, it was very apparent that in the state of Ohio, there were two organizations doing almost exactly the same services for independent agents. We had a ton of overlap between the two organizations. It's not the best situation for an independent agent to have to choose. Why wouldn't it be one unit? Why wouldn't it be one strong voice for independent agents?

Kerry Wallace: When the leadership aligned and our volunteer leaders aligned, we have some of the best volunteer leaders in the state of Ohio that were instrumental in making that merger happen. Once we were merged, it was like, "Okay, this is great, but how do we bring great value to independent agents today and in the future?" When you're in a state where there's two associations, you're competing. You're distracted thinking the best thing we can do is grow this and our services and compete with that other organization. The cool thing is our agents recognized we're not competing with an association down the street from ourselves, even before the merger. We're competing with other organizations that are thinking more progressively and we need to think more progressively.

Kerry Wallace: Step one, let's unify. Step two, let's start thinking about what really matters to independent agents and how we can help be their business advisors and bring them the resources and the services they need in order to grow their businesses. That's what we're here for. I attribute it to alignment of thought around what a trade association really can do and be progressive as this marketplace changes. We have some energy on our team that's really gotten behind that. We will always be a trade association. We will always do those things. That's at our core. But the needs of our agents are changing, and we spent a lot of time and energy on that and said, "What is our role in helping our agents navigate that?" That's really allowed us to surround ourselves with people that think and feel the same way and start reinventing what a trade association should really be.

Ryan Hanley: So much of what I saw too, having been a speaker at so many associations, and this is not to knock any association, there was always a different energy when I went to one of your events. It always felt like the people that you brought on board, new hires or just the individuals you had, there was always this sense of energy about them. How are you able, being part of the leadership team, to build that culture? When people classically think of an association, they think kind of same old stuff. You guys have broken that. I think Oklahoma does a great job. North Carolina does a great job. There are many associations that do it. But how are you able to keep people so engaged and interesting and bringing energy culturally?

Kerry Wallace: For us, anytime we bring agents in to talk to our staff about their experience, or we go in an agent's office and hear their experiences and learn about them, that is one of the most inspiring things you can do. I think I made 180 agent visits over the last three years. I sat in someone's office and talked to them in their environment and heard their story or helped them in some way. If you're disconnected, you really don't understand what you're doing or who you're doing it for and can't possibly know what they would need you to do to help them.

Kerry Wallace: We, and many of our peer states, have gotten super close to our agents, as close as we possibly can, and then made them the center of everything we're doing. If you're not doing that, I think there's a disconnect. That's where our passion and energy comes from. If you walk through our building and through our office, there's no mistake who we serve because every photograph, every thought is about an independent agent that we've served. That's super important. We have a constant reminder of why we do what we do. When we bring a new staff person on, that's the number one thing. We share story after story after story of the people that we're serving and why we're doing this.

Ryan Hanley: Now you've transitioned into being the CEO of Intel Agents, right? I'm saying that right?

Kerry Wallace: You are saying it right. Yep. Intel Agents.

Ryan Hanley: I'm incredibly interested in this for many reasons. I would love for you to share with everyone listening that may have not heard of Intel Agents before. Give us the elevator pitch.

Kerry Wallace: Intel Agents was founded last August. It is a data analytics company that has built a platform for independent agents to share their information, but also get data insights in order to grow their businesses. The associations are inherently positioned to learn so much about the people we serve. We interact in the same way in every single state with our independent agents. We only serve independent agents. Everyone we interact with is in our marketplace. We are positioned as a trade association to know a ton about independent agents.

Kerry Wallace: Historically, we used the information we gathered for the transaction or the purpose only for that purpose. You come to our annual event, you register, you tell us something about your agency, and we do that to process your registration. You come to our education class, same thing. You give us a birthday, it's to get your CE. You become a member, you share with us your premium volume. Never had we thought about marrying the data that we got from education and the data that we got from membership to say, "Wow, did you know in our marketplace, 55% of our agents are going to transition the ownership of their agency and that means $6.5 billion is going to trade hands?" We weren't thinking that way.

Kerry Wallace: Intel Agents is an organization that is saying, "What data do trade associations have on independent agents that can help independent agents grow their business?" We are a great resource of that data. We are aggregating it and sharing it with independent agents in order to help them work on their business, not just in their business.

Ryan Hanley: What kind of stuff are people getting out of it? When I was doing research, I saw talent acquisition, operational efficiencies, organic growth, brokering acquisitions between other agencies. How would this help you acquire new talent? Let's just take that case.

Kerry Wallace: We started with the data that we had, which was operational in nature. We understood what the premium volume were for our agencies. We knew what their carrier mix was. We know what their staff size is. We know what their birth dates are. We did not have compensation to start with, but we have this deep knowledge in all the other areas. The first step was to launch salary surveys in every single state that we operated. It's important for me to tell you that this started in Ohio and we now are in 14 states. We'll grow probably to 19 or 20 states by the end of this year. We started with 2,200 agencies in our database and we're now over 20,000 agencies across the footprint.

Kerry Wallace: In the states where we did not have compensation, it's the number one area that agents want to know. They want to know, "Am I compensating fairly? Do I have the right staff structure? What's the productivity I should be expecting out of my staff? What benefits should I offer? What's the generational health and how do I transfer knowledge from one generation to the other across the roles within my agency?" Your people, the people in independent agents, are their greatest asset. It's the number one thing that they want to know.

Kerry Wallace: We launched salary surveys in order to create those benchmarks. In every state where we operate, that benchmark has to be at 20% before we publish. That is far deeper than any national benchmark that you'll find. And it's actionable. Now you don't look at a national productivity number and wonder when do I hire an XCSR. You can look at productivity numbers, look at your numbers and say, "My people are probably a little too overworked. I need to hire at this point." When you look at a national number, those productivity numbers are completely skewed in certain marketplaces. Now we're giving you the standards in your marketplace so you can make that decision.

Kerry Wallace: For instance, Ohio can't sell workers' comp. The productivity numbers in Ohio will look completely different in a state that can sell workers' comp. We've taken the guesswork out of some of the standards that are published and made it very relevant, not only in your state, but sometimes all the way down to the region. Right now we do it by region, by size of agency, across the state. We also tell you in your marketplace who are the fastest growing agencies. You can start to think, "Maybe there's a different way I can organize that would utilize my resources differently and allow me to have those growth rates."

Kerry Wallace: The whole idea is how do we provide the information that's relevant enough for an agent to take action? We're there to say, "Here's some things you should be thinking about. Here's what they're thinking about." We now can become an advisor to be the story around the numbers that they're looking at.

Ryan Hanley: Have you gotten any pushback from agencies that are worried about sharing data?

Kerry Wallace: They want to know, "When I give you my data, how does it stay secure? Who else is going to have access to it?" But when they see it's really in the aggregate, we only provide your data to you, they're fine. Here's the thing, Ryan. These people have been doing business with us. They know, like, and trust us because we're in business to help them. There are not many other organizations they're ever going to come across that has a more aligned mission than their trade association. Intel Agents is 100% owned by trade associations, which are all led by independent agents. Our mission will never vary from an independent agent. I think that is our differentiator. There are other benchmarks out there. There are plenty of places for you to share your data, but are they aligned with what you're doing as an independent agent?

Kerry Wallace: I think that's the key. So people ask questions about data, but I haven't gotten much pushback at all. In fact, it's refreshing to know that it's actionable and it's something that I can put some weight in and start making a decision. They want partners that want to help them.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah, it kind of comes full circle to the conversation we were having very early on about technology vendors. We want to do business with people that we know, like, and trust. That's one of the reasons why, and I'm interested in your take on this. I have been using this term "agent optimized agency," mashing up traditional classic virtues of an independent agency in the digital space. But I have no desire, nor do I believe that the future is a completely digital transaction. I do believe that there are lines of business that will probably go more that way. But I always believe there's going to need to be an agent involved. And I'm positive you believe the same thing.

Kerry Wallace: Oh, yeah. No doubt about it.

Ryan Hanley: How do we continue to leverage that? The part that I'm super interested in is I have no idea where the line is. Where the line is skewed more towards digital, is it skewed more towards the humans? I'm just interested in your take on where you see some of these things going, because I almost feel like while everyone is rushing hardcore digital, there's an opportunity if you can become more human. That makes sense.

Kerry Wallace: So Ryan, it's so funny. I had one agent that was talking to me, and they weren't using this analogy, but it's so similar. They said, "Everybody's running towards commercial. Commercial's where to go if I want to grow my agency." And he's like, "I'm growing personal lines hand over fist." I think the line is going to be different for different agencies. It really matters what you're focused on as that agency owner, what the culture is of your agency. For as many consumers as there are out there, their needs are varied, and there's going to be the right agency for all different kinds of consumers.

Kerry Wallace: I couldn't agree with you more that there are certain lines of business where digital is much easier and a much better fit. But I'm a consumer as well. Knowing that I have someone who actually cares about my family, that I can ask questions, and who has actually opened my eyes as a consumer in ways I didn't expect... I think being more human and actually caring about the things that I care about and helping me understand how to best protect it is never going to go away. Our lives are getting so complex, and the risk is going to get even more complex. You want someone who's actually knowledgeable that can help you through it.

Kerry Wallace: I have two girls, a 21-year-old and a 20-year-old. We were USAA clients for years because I'm a military family. I'm not today, but I thought I had the best insurance on the planet before I came here. I was elite, I got to have USAA. I'll tell you, I was one of the most underinsured people you probably ever met. My girls will never leave the independent agent that we do business with. He has gone above and beyond with our family. Relationships matter, even to the next generation. So it depends on the consumer, and there will be agencies out there that will meet those consumers' needs. But to say that we're going to be 100% digital, I strongly disagree. I do not think that's the future.

Ryan Hanley: I'll give you an interesting example from my own life. These are all the little things that you don't think about. I had to choose a bank. I'm with a credit union that I've been with since I opened my first bank account because my mom works for the state. They're great for personal banking, a little antiquated, but great. Well, with the fiduciary responsibility of keeping my money separate, I wanted to get a different bank for Rogue Risk. It's a decision you have to make. At face value, you think a bank is a bank is a bank. Then you start thinking about it and realize that's not exactly true. You can go with Bank of America or Chase, and they're everywhere, they're huge, they have all the apps.

Ryan Hanley: This is the way I ended up going. I have a little man text chain I'm on, about five or six dudes I'm friends with, all business guys in the area. I texted them and said, "Hey goons, I need a bank. Who do you recommend?" I got a couple of recommendations. Finally, one of my buddies picks up the phone and calls me and says, "Do not listen to any of those guys. Call Lynn Smith at Pioneer Bank. Sit down with her, and I guarantee you open a bank account with them." Because he was the one that picked up the phone, the rest of them just texted me back. I called her, she sets an appointment. She sits down with me for an hour and a half and listens to me talk about what Rogue is going to be.

Ryan Hanley: One of the things I'm trying to do is get ahead of my first employee by getting some working capital or a loan in place so that when I'm ready for my first staff member, I don't have to go out and find the financing for it. I was talking to her about that, and we're coming up with all these options. It was great. Then she goes, "Are you going to open a bank account here?" I said, "Yes, I had planned to." I really only made that decision during my conversation with her because she was so amazing to talk to. I couldn't not open a bank account there. But they're not the most tech savvy. It took me a couple minutes to figure out how to connect it to QuickBooks Online. It's not like Chase where you click a button and it connects. It was a little bit more work.

Ryan Hanley: So she says, "Okay, come back tomorrow at 10:30 AM. I'm going to walk you down, introduce you to the branch manager, introduce you to the tellers. So when you walk in, they know exactly who you are." I left and I was like, it's about people. That's the thing. It's about people.

Kerry Wallace: Yeah. That's what matters. Because when you need something, those people know you and they care about you and they want to know you. That's the beauty of it. So I couldn't agree more. That's what my agent did. I'm going to tell you a super quick story just because you told me yours.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah, please.

Kerry Wallace: I was at Elevate. My husband's traveling, I'm obviously out of pocket. This was a little bit ago. My daughter had her first car accident. She was terrified that a police officer was at her window. It wasn't her fault, she was hit. She was fine, everything's fine. But she's got a police officer getting ready to ask her questions, and she's terrified. She calls me, I'm out of pocket. She calls my husband, he's on a plane. She calls the agent. She calls the only number inside her glove box. She called my agent's office. Guess what? He was at Elevate, but he called her.

Kerry Wallace: The thing she said was, "I don't think you know this, Ryan, but my oldest daughter has high functioning autism." For her to get a license was huge. She had to go through all kinds of stuff. He helped us in many ways. So she's now driving and she's got a police officer at a window asking her questions and she's nervous. The thing she said to me when she told me about this interaction was, "I reached our agent, and you know what, Mom? He treated me like an adult and he helped me through it." I'm like, yeah, you can't ever replace that. He's an amazing person, and she will never forget that he was the person she could get a hold of and he helped her through it. She wasn't at fault, but he just cared. He cared. And that matters.

Kerry Wallace: That teller, or that bank person, cared to introduce you, and they're going to care when you need something. That's what you need when you're building a business. So yeah, I fully believe that. I hope that we never forget that. I know it's a big part of why I do what I do. I think one of the reasons that you and I have always connected is because you are the exact same way. I think that's why it's so important to continue to share these messages and continue to have conversations like the one we're having. We can never lose sight of that.

Ryan Hanley: It's so easy. You're running a data business, and it's easy when you dive into ones and zeros to forget that those ones and zeros are accounts. They're people. They're actions that people took. I'm a huge technology homer. I love it. I love to geek out on it. My favorite thing on a Saturday night is to drink beers and play with automation systems and technology after my wife goes to bed. I'm a nerd.

Kerry Wallace: Absolutely, man. Yeah, I get it.

Ryan Hanley: But at the same time, we're doing all that stuff. We can't forget that those are real people. You're creating connections not to get a user or an account through a system, but to help a human being feel better about a transaction, understand a transaction more, or give them more access to you in case something actually happens like with your daughter. I think it's so important that we continue to have these types of conversations.

Kerry Wallace: I totally agree. For us, data is the vehicle that helps us give the right information to help independent agents navigate the decisions they need to make. We want to be there to help them navigate it. I don't know if you follow me on social, but the days when I get to sit in an independent agent's office and be able to help with that conversation are my favorite days. The data is important, and it helps me give context, provide ideas, and get feedback. But it's really about how do I help you build a plan, weigh the things that you should be weighing, be a sounding board for you, be an advisor, sometimes be a quarterback just to keep you on plan with the thing that you said you want to do. It's really about the consulting that comes along with the data insights we're providing. That's what inspires me. That's the thing we get excited about around here. It's about the people.

Ryan Hanley: I have two more questions for you. The first one is probably fairly easy. What was the first piece of data that you came across at IntelAgents that took you by surprise, or that you thought wasn't what you expected?

Kerry Wallace: We came up with the idea, built a data strategy, and took a year to mine our data and say, "What do we even have?" When we first hired our data strategist, I wrote the strategy and then we realized we probably need someone way smarter than me to figure out how to put this in practice. So we spent a year really mining our data. What was alarming is if you watch all the insurance trade magazines and the news reports, you would think that private equity transactions are dominating our marketplace. But what we actually found when we mined our data was that 91% of all the mergers and acquisitions in our state were retail agent to retail agent or internal perpetuation. That was mind boggling.

Kerry Wallace: What's even worse, Ryan, is how many of them went through without any valuation at all. These are the largest asset of our independent agent, and they're doing it on a multiple of revenue that's one line item in their agency. That was the reason we got into the marketplace first by providing a valuation product that is affordable and accessible by our average agent. There are great people in the marketplace doing this, they've been doing it for years, but their price structure doesn't really allow 80% of our members to even access their product. That's the reason that's the first part that got to market before we ever did benchmarking, our insights report, or online tools. There's such a need, and it's been super rewarding to be part of that process. I'm happy to tell you that 42% of the agencies that have done valuations with us have done it for business planning purposes, not to sell, not to perpetuate, because they want to understand the value of their agency. I feel like we're making a difference by providing that. I'm super proud of that.

Ryan Hanley: That's one of the more powerful messages that I think Zach Gould and Matt Namolia put out into the world from GNN Insurance. Five years prior to when they sold GNN to HILB, they had been doing valuations. So they knew every year what the valuation of their business was, how it had changed, and what factors had changed that valuation throughout the process. I think that's a really important message. Anyone who's listening, go to intelagents.io. You can check out the whole site. I'll have a link in the show notes as well. There is a tab for valuation. We're talking $2,500 to $3,100, depending if you're a member or a non-member. That's very reasonable for an agency to have a much better picture of their standing and then benchmark that standing over time each year. To me, this is an absolute must. It should just be factored into your expense load that each year you're going to do this because it puts you in such a better position. Having talked to Zach and Matt a lot about that decision, it was something that was recommended to them, they took it on, and they equate it to much of the success they saw over that five-year period. Being able to take this valuation in, find their weak spots, work on them, and then double into their strengths really propelled their business forward. I think every agency can do that.

Kerry Wallace: Without question. Never, ever sell your agency without doing some serious planning for at least five years in advance. Maximize the value, whether you're going to perpetuate internally or externally. Work on the business to make sure you set the next person up for success, make good decisions, and be informed. Some of the best things is the second year valuation where we get to see that an agency took some of our advice and the value went up. That's a win all day long for us. It's one of the most rewarding things, but it was the glaringly obvious thing that we needed to put in the marketplace.

Ryan Hanley: The last question I want to ask, and I want to be very respectful of your time. You wrote an article that I think is tremendous called "Caution: Broken Glass Ahead." It was all about female leadership in the insurance space. Something that I'm a very strong proponent of. It was one of the things at Elevate 2018 that was very important to me. I talked to you guys about it. I wanted to have as much diversity in representation and voices, not just male and female, but diversity in general. I love that you've taken this on, that you're using your position as both a well-respected individual but also now a CEO of an enterprise in our space to push this. I'm interested in your comments, your thoughts, where we've come from, where we are, where we're going. I'll have the link to both your LinkedIn post and your general LinkedIn in the show notes for this episode so people listening at home can connect with you.

Kerry Wallace: I appreciate that, Ryan. I started my career in a technology startup. Even back to when I got a degree in finance, I was one of four women that graduated at WVU that year with finance. I've been in male-dominated industries my entire career and often looked around the room and thought, "Wow, I am 100% the minority in this room." The good news is I have had mentors, male, female, younger than me, older than me. It has not at all inhibited my ability to find the right people and surround myself with super smart people. But I don't know that that's true for all people. I think it's important to talk about and recognize those that have found their way when they are not in the majority.

Kerry Wallace: I found myself in a room of agents about a year ago. Someone said, "I'm the token Canadian." I bet you could imagine who that was. When it got to me, I was the token woman in the room. That's been a role that I've been in for a really long time. I've actually taken it as a really great compliment that I'm able to break through and get there. But I want other people in my position, or that maybe don't see that it's possible, to hear that it is possible and you need to make it happen. I think it's also important for leaders, male, female, different nationalities, different races, to recognize that you have to surround yourself and diversify in order to have diversity of thought. It's incredibly important in our industry.

Kerry Wallace: I don't know if you know this, but we've created some peer groups that are female-based to create a network for that here at OIA. We see that there are some amazing leaders. There are three women on our board, and we're very diligent about making sure that we find leaders and give opportunities because our industry needs diversity of thought. That's one way to do it. We're far from solving the diversity problem, but we're doing the best that we can. I think the industry we're in is amazing, and there are amazing people, but you need to find your group. I've found mine without question. I feel like it's important to have that voice. Sydney Rowe does a really nice job of talking about her journey, and it's different for everyone, but the whole idea is you just got to get the voice out there so others see there's possibility and opportunity.

Ryan Hanley: Awesome. Carrie, this has been such a tremendous conversation. I know anytime that I get to spend with you is very enjoyable. Can you let everyone listening know where they can find out more, where they can connect with you, and where they can find out more about IntelAgents or any other resources that you think are important for someone who's listening and wants to know more or be involved?

Kerry Wallace: For any agents that are out there, our website is intelagents.io. If you're in any of the states that we're in, you can reach out to the state associations.

Ryan Hanley: You okay if I share the states really quickly?

Kerry Wallace: Oh yeah, go ahead.

Kerry Wallace: It started in Ohio, and we are now in Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Maryland. We're in North Carolina, Florida, Illinois, and Michigan. Those are our investor states. We are getting ready to launch in Kansas, Georgia, Texas, California, and Tennessee. In any of those states, you need to reach out to them and say, "Hey, how do I find out about the benchmarking rise report? How do I find out about valuation? How do I find out about data insights that I can get from my independent agency or by my association?" All of this information is on intelagents.io. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm everywhere. I'm happy to connect with anyone who wants to talk about this.

Ryan Hanley: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the show and chatting with me and for all the work you do in general. You are the classic professional, and it's just a pleasure to know you.

Kerry Wallace: Well, thank you, Ryan. I am watching and wondering as you build your business. If you ever need anything, I'm right here. I'd love to chat. I wish you all the best.

Ryan Hanley: Thank you so much. Thank you.

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