--:-- Ryan Hanley: In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Absolutely tremendous episode for you today. We have Heath Shearon, the founder of the Insurance Town podcast. We talk a little bit about Heath's recent transition from Encompass, where he was a marketing rep, agency ambassador, whatever, to being full-time on the Insurance Town podcast, what that meant, when he realized he was ready to make that transition, how he made that transition, and where he sees the Insurance Town podcast goes. We talk a little bit about the industry in general and ultimately want to know what the future looks like for Heath. It's just an awesome, awesome conversation. I couldn't believe, like with Brett Fulmer a couple of episodes ago, I couldn't believe I hadn't had Heath on the show yet and I was excited to share him with you. If you don't know who Heath is, if you do already, you're going to enjoy this. And if you're not subscribed to the Insurance Town Podcast, I think it's a great add to your iTunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. The Insurance Town Podcast is a great add. So we'll get to Heath in just a minute.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Before we do, I want to give a big shout out to our sponsor, Advisor Evolved, the greatest insurance websites in the history of the world. There is no other option. If you're using another website provider, then just understand that you have chosen to use a lesser option than Advisor Evolved. I've been Chris Langell's buddy for maybe 10 years, and I always bust his chops about being from Jersey. Chris and I talked before Advisory Evolve was even a thing. He was still an agent. Watching him grow this company, watching the quality of his work evolve, although he always made good websites. I mean, Rogue Risk is probably like the third or fourth website that he's built for me. And I've never had a problem. He knows how to fix things. He knows how to get them done quickly. His websites work. They rank for SEO. They're fast, which is so important. They're not filled with garbage plugins and third-party nonsense that slow your website down. All this stuff matters today. SEO is one of the primary places that Rogue Risk gets new leads every month, and that's in large part thanks to Chris Langell and the work the fine people at Advisor Evolved do. So I want to give a big shout out to them.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Also want to give a shout out to Mick Hunt and Premier Strategy Box. I know I always give Mick shout outs, but I just think the world of Mick and think the world of what him and his people do. If you need one of your teams managed, if you need your producers trained, if you need your agency Zoom or your automation tool set up with high quality emails and automations and follow-ups that match your language, what Mick is doing at Premier Strategy Box, in my opinion, is best-in-class agency consulting, revenue-driving services. It's worth knowing Mick. It's worth knowing his team. Check them out at mypremierestrategybox.com. All right, let's get on to Heath Shearon.
--:-- [Sound of a connection being made]
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yo, dude. Coming in on mute. What's up, bro?
--:-- Heath Shearon: Podcast master coming in on mute. You know it though.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Well, I know you come in hot with the recording already started, so I gotta make sure I'm muted before I get started saying something. What's up, man?
--:-- Heath Shearon: Man, I'm just chilling.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I've been recording all day. You said today's your batch day. What does that mean?
--:-- Heath Shearon: Oh, I recorded four today. It's just been a morning full of recordings. It's been good.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That's the best way to do it. Before Rogue, that's how I tried to do it. I would actually do batch weeks. I would basically try to get like four to six recordings in over the course of one week and then take a couple weeks off to clear my mind. Plus, it's just easier. Once you get in that podcast mode, you kind of get in that question mode. But yeah, that's the best way to do it. Sporadically, like right now I'm doing one or two a week, so I'm only ever one or two weeks ahead. There's a lot of pressure on that.
--:-- Heath Shearon: That's how I started off the first year. Now I'm trying to get like 12 weeks out so I can enjoy the summer and not have that pressure. But again, I worry about having dated material sometimes. That's all right. I'm still learning this game. I'm not a pro like Ryan Hanley, but I'm getting there, bro.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Don't take anything I do as pro. I look at Cass or Carruthers or Flowers and Scott Howell or Caitlin. They're all so much more pro than me. I'm the least pro of the whole group.
--:-- Heath Shearon: But you've been doing it longer than everybody else.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yes, but I also do it mostly because I like talking to people, not because I want to have a podcast. Truthfully, I record these because people find them interesting. I have more conversations like this off air than I do on air. I just like talking to people and learning about what they're doing. I just record these because people seem to like them. But if people stop liking them, I would still have the conversation.
--:-- Heath Shearon: No, I'm with you. I'm the same way, bro.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Well, that's how you and I met. You just randomly called me one day on the phone, I think from wherever the heck you were in Arkansas. I think you were like, "Dude, I've been listening to this Agency Nation podcast and you don't even know I'm from Arkansas." And you were with Encompass at the time, I think. And then we just chatted for like an hour. We just were chatting and had a great conversation. And then we've been buddies ever since. I'm surprised this is the first time you're on the show.
--:-- Heath Shearon: I was thinking about it the other day. I just did this with Broker Brett. Broker Brett's coming out the week before you. Dude, we did it again. I just recorded Broker Brett. He's coming out tomorrow. You son of a bitch, dude. You always beat me. I finally mine's coming out Thursday. I'm emailing Cass's people right now telling them to get it out now. Get it out right now. Great minds think alike, bro.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Broker Brett's cool though. He's ADHD like a son of a gun though. He's all over the map. We had a good conversation. I enjoyed that. It was the same kind of deal. I've known him for three or four years now and communicated with him a lot. We've had calls. I've actually been on the podcast that he used to do with Nick Lamparelli for Insurance Nerds. I've been on that show and talked to them. I think there's a general misconception that I take this podcast more serious than I do. I saw him and I was like, "Man, when's the last time I had Brett on the show?" And I said, "Well, holy crap, I've never had Brett on the show." So I sent him a message. I think I actually DMed him on Twitter, which is weird. Adam Sheridan is the only other human that DMs me on Twitter. That's like our special space. So Adam, I'm not calling you out, bro. Keep doing it. That does not give any of you other people who are listening license to DM me on Twitter. But I DMed him on Twitter and I was like, "Yo, dude, you got to come on the show. I can't believe you haven't been on." So that's funny.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So everyone listening, the inside joke is, without planning, Heath and I are constantly stealing each other's guests.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Yeah, dude. I try to get guests that nobody else has on. And then sure enough, Haley will have them or I'll have them right before you. It's just funny. That's part of the game with the podcast deal I guess. Everybody makes their circuits and makes their rounds.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: And you beat me to Mick Hunt too. You had him on your show and I had him like a year later. Either way, that dude's amazing. Mick Hunt from Premier Strategy Box. Go to mypremierestrategybox.com. A future sponsor of the Ryan Hanley Show. No current sponsor.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Oh, is he okay? My bad.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, there's no one better in the agency management consulting game. Obviously there's a lot more than that. What I've always been impressed with about Mick, and I want to talk about you too obviously, but what I love about Mick is I actually met Mick at Billy Williams' event in Florida in February of 2020. This is like a month before the zombie apocalypse. We were down in Texas at Billy's thing. There's this dude sitting behind me and he's talking every once in a while and he's saying some stuff. I'm like, "I really like what this dude is saying." I'm nodding my head. I'm like, "Wow, this dude sounds really smart." So finally I turned around. I'm like, "Who are you? How do I not know you? The stuff you're saying is so on point." The way he was saying it was so authoritative. I was like, "How do I not know who this person is?" So then we started rapping and we ended up going to lunch both days together. Now he just busts my balls about the Bills all the time. But his team is locked in over there. They're producing a lot of winners, let's put it that way.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Dude, that's how the best relationships happen. "Who the hell are you and why don't I know you?" That's how most of my relationships start. I think that's a general miss by a lot of people and myself early in my career. I don't want to pretend like I somehow came out with this understanding. In general, I feel like we don't randomly reach out to people enough. We just don't. I'm not talking about just blowing up somebody's email with 10 million requests. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you see someone who's doing something or saying something or engaged in something, and you are genuinely intrigued or feel like you can add value. That's the best way to reach out. Those random touches, even if in the moment the person doesn't lock in, because a lot of times everybody has 10 million things going on. Maybe that moment you can't completely go down the path, but you definitely take a mental note. It was really cool that person reached out, or geez, that resource they sent me was cool. Then maybe a month, maybe a year later, you come back to them and you go deeper.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: No, I a hundred percent agree. That's the way I've built most of my relationships in this industry for the last 20 years, just reaching out to people. One of the things that I think I do that a lot of people don't do is, when I hear a guest on your show or on whoever's show, you mentioned a whole host of shows earlier, I'll pick up the phone and call them. If they leave their contact information anywhere in the show, I'll just be like, "Dude, I enjoyed hearing you on the Hanley show. I enjoyed hearing you on whatever show." People want that. They go on these shows for that. Some people don't do that. So I try to encourage people after my shows, "Hey, reach out to this guy. Talk to him because he's got a lot to say. He came on the show for a reason." I think that's really cool. That's how I got to know you. You left your contact somewhere and maybe you slipped your cell phone out there. I was like, "Dude, I'm calling him." And again, we've become friends since then. We text every week or we talk as much as we can. I appreciate that.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Yeah, no, it's good, man. The other thing too about the podcasting thing, and we've talked a lot about this behind the scenes. For you listeners, you may not realize this. There's no reason that you would. But a lot of the podcasters in our space, we talk to each other. We share. We actually got a Facebook group chat thing where most of the time we just make fun of Cass, but occasionally we do share information. My point in saying that to you is that I think it's not combative. I bust chops about Carruthers and Flowers and how well they do. We're always kind of like it's a friendly competition to a certain extent. But at the same time, at least for me, and I know that you share this value as well, so I'm going to speak for you, I think it's really about just our industry growing, being more connected. That's why I never care if you or anybody else comes out with a guest right before or right after that's the same, because you're going to talk to somebody a completely different way. You're going to ask them different questions. You're going to go down different paths. You're going to be interested in different things than I'm going to be interested in. I have my own philosophy on how I like to talk to people. You have your own philosophy. Scott and Bradley do their own thing. Cass is a different way. Carruth is a different way. Caitlin, all the different podcasts, they all have different ways. When someone does do the circuit, I feel like it's good to listen to a couple of those because you'll get something a little different from each one.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: No, I completely agree. I like what you said there. A lot of times I'm listening for or talking to him about a totally different avenue because I come from a different background than you do. I come from the South. You come from the Northeast. I come from second generation. You come from starting up your agency a year ago. I come from 20 years on different sides of the fence. So my questions are going to be different. I'm not near as intelligent as you are. Some of the words you say, I have no clue what they are. I have to Google so many of your words. The mayor is not that smart. But it's really cool. I forgot what you said the other day. I wrote it down to look it up. My wife was like, "You're an idiot. You don't know what that means." But it was a really good word. I appreciate it.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I read too much as a kid. I'm secretly very dorky and I like reading books. It's not that secret.
--:-- Heath Shearon: So not so secretly dorky.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: My wife makes fun of me all the time. She's like, "Why do you talk like that?" I'm like, "I don't even know that I'm saying these things." Half the time I don't even know if I'm using the words right. I just read it one time and it sounded good. I don't even know where it comes from. I'm sure if someone did a fact check on my podcast, it would be all falses. It would get crushed in a fact check.
--:-- Heath Shearon: By the way, this probably should be edited out maybe, but do you know that the most used word on your podcast is probably "serendipitous"?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, it could be. I agree with you. I think that especially recently. I think the reason is where I'm at in life and in business. I'm very grateful for this particular moment. There's a cliche, and I don't know that I'll phrase it properly, but it's essentially, you never know when you're there until it's over. I feel like I'm living a moment in my life when I actually am aware how happy, how grateful, content, how much love, respect, how much challenge. I'm living in a moment right now where I feel, and I'm not saying everything's perfect. Don't get me wrong. It's not like I haven't paid myself in 15 months. There's a lot of things that aren't perfect. But I have my relationship with my wife, my friends, the people I talk to. My kids are amazing. Seven and five. My older son is super into baseball, which is like my dream. I love baseball. So I'm in this moment and I don't know how I got here. I have no other word to describe it other than serendipity. I didn't plan to be here, but I found myself in this moment. I wake up every day. I'm happy. I'm excited, challenged. I have love. I don't know how else to describe it. So I think that's probably what it is.
--:-- Heath Shearon: It's perfect. I think that's another reason why it's a great time for you and I to talk because I'm in that same boat. For a good majority of my career, I couldn't say that I was at that place in my life where I was satisfied. I feel like right now I've hit the lottery in my career. It couldn't be any better to be able to get in a place in my life where I quit the company job to go full-time into Insurance Town. It's a lot for me. It's exciting for me and it's a happy time for me. So the serendipity thing, I saved the busting chops, but at the same time, I resonate with that. That's what makes you so relatable, at least to me, and I'm sure the gazillion listeners you've got out there, because it's just refreshing, especially in our industry when it's full of negativity and full of naysayers. To have someone that's positive, that sends that vibe. It's super cool. So I'm excited for you. I'm proud of you. I'm happy to hear that things are up for you.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Well, thank you very much. I want to get into the psychology of making that transfer in a second. I want to just piggyback real quick before we get there off of what you just said about the negativity. I had a moment on Twitter today, actually, in recording this, where I saw a tweet from someone who works in the insurtech space for a platform that specifically services agents. This particular individual continues, in my opinion, to post inflammatory comments that, while I'm assuming the point is to be provocative and to create conversation, comes off as very negative. It feels very like 2016. "Agents are idiots and incapable of doing this and they won't do this and they can't do this." I just can't help myself. The Irish, fiery, crazy person that lives inside of me comes out. I'm just like, "Ah." Then there's all this commentary. You said negativity. I just wish in general in our industry, and we'll never get there, and people aren't perfect, and neither am I, and I do this and we all do this, but I do hope that... I learned a lot of lessons at Agency Nation. I was at different times. I was part of the problem. I will admit that. I think in 2017, 2018, I started, I got over it. But certainly in 2015, 2016, when the insurtech revolution was first started, I was part of the problem. I really wish we could get to a place where we stop blaming each other.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I was going back and forth with Nick Ayers on this, which was a very productive part of this Twitter exchange. As much as I don't always agree with everything Nick says, I do think the way he thinks about things, I really appreciate. We were going back and forth and I was like, "Man, there's no perfect agent. There's no perfect carrier. There's no perfect association. There's no perfect tech vendor. Can we cut each other just a little bit of slack? Maybe if no one is adopting your technology platform, it's not because agents are stupid. It's because you haven't actually solved a real problem. You've solved a problem that you perceive. I know a lot of agents who aren't heavy tech that make a lot of money. So why are you saying that they can't or won't? They've obviously figured something out. Maybe your solution just isn't right for them." It goes the other way too. Agencies need to stop holding insurance technology vendors to such a high bar, because there's a lot of legacy crap that goes on. It is impossible to just walk in and be an end-all solution for people. So I just wish we could all just mellow and understand that agents are part of the game. Tech is part of the game. Carriers are part of the game. Associations are part of the game. The more we can work together, we rise a lot faster. It's never gonna be perfect, but that's a little kumbaya, but that's kind of the mood that I'm in.
--:-- Heath Shearon: No, it's right on because that's a huge problem that I have and I see in our industry. It's easy to get sucked into those Twitter battles or those fights on the groups and the chats, because we are passionate people. I know I'm speaking for you and I, and most of our industry, if we're doing something, it's a passion that's coming out. I think about a quote, I think it's Simon Sinek who says, "If you're working hard for something you don't care about, it's called stress. But if you're working for something that you care about, you believe in, it's called passion." I think that you and I, and a lot of our industry, including Nick Ayers, we're passionate about what we believe in. So that passion comes out. It does come across negative a lot. I'm hoping that just by little somethings that we do, maybe even this podcast can help inspire at least one person to be positive today. Who knows?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. Nick wasn't the guy that I initially bucked at, by the way, just in case anyone's wondering. I have an enormous amount of respect for Nick for a lot of reasons. So dude, okay, we've chit-chatted about a lot of nonsensical and out of context things, which I'm sure the audience is very familiar with. But I am super interested in one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on the show. I want to learn more about your decision. First, I'd like anyone who is unaware of maybe just a little bit of your history. Just give us the quick backstory. But then I want to get into the decision to go full podcast, full Insurance Town. That couldn't have been easy. Maybe it was easy. I don't know. But give us the quick backstory, and then I want to start to talk about that because it's such a bold move. I'm so happy for you. I just want to learn more about the mentality behind it.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Okay, so the quick story for people that don't know who I am. I come from 20 years experience in this business, second generation. I've always been either carrier side or agency side, but my biggest footprint, I feel like in this industry has been on the association side. You and I share that other side of the fence. I was a real big PIA guy. My wife runs the PIA of Arkansas. My father actually works for the Big I in Arkansas. So I've always been heavily involved in associations. I got put on some national councils and boards and things like that. I would travel all over the country and get to go to different events similar to you, whether I was speaking or attending.
--:-- Heath Shearon: One of those events I went to, gosh, seven or eight years ago, again, a fact check that's probably wrong, but however many years ago. When I got to the event, my name badge, you know they always say your name and your company. Well, this one said "The Mayor" on the name tag and it had the company I was working for underneath it. I was like, "This is not my name tag. What is this all about?" I think I was in Missouri somewhere, so I was out of my element a little bit, out of my state anyway. They said, "No, we changed your name tag to 'The Mayor' because we've had at least six or seven people today come up and say, 'Where's he? Where's he going to be? Where's his booth? Where's he going to be speaking? What roundtable discussions does he have?'" It was flattering for me because I was just a redneck from Arkansas. For them to call me "The Mayor," it was a super cool thing.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Fast forwarding, the pandemic hit. I'd always had this dream. I think I talked to you about it a year and a half or two years ago about starting a podcast. I never did do it. I sat on my thumbs and just said, "I'm not going to do it. I don't have enough to say." I had all these self-doubts. Finally, the pandemic hit in February or March. My wife was like, "You have no excuse. It's time to do it." I had good friends of mine that would push me in that direction. They said, "You got to do it. You got to do it." So I finally just said, "Okay." Your friend Sid Rowe was one of the biggest proponents for me to do it. She said, "I'll be your first guest. That'll give you some credibility right off the bat." Having Sid Rowe, the wonderful person that she is, come on. To this day, she's like a sister to me. She flipped the script on me my first episode and started interviewing me, which I thought was interesting.
--:-- Heath Shearon: From there, the podcast just grew little by little to a point where I started getting my first sponsor about three months in. I thought it would take me forever. I talked to Bradley Flowers, you, some other people early on. I was like, "What are my numbers supposed to be? Where am I supposed to be at?" I kept checking the numbers like every 10 minutes, I'd refresh my numbers, like most early podcasters do. Bradley gave me the best advice at one point. He said, "Don't look for a year. Don't even look at your numbers." Which is impossible for a podcaster, but don't look, especially a new one. I kept looking and finally I just turned it off and didn't look anymore. About three months in, I had my first sponsor come in with Canopy Connect. Then from there, I think you've actually hooked up with them, but after that, I had another sponsor come on. Then I landed a really large sponsor at the end of 2020. I got to the point where I was like, "Holy crap, I can actually do this." It affords me the opportunity to do what I enjoy, and that's talking to people, as we talked about earlier.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Through doing this, you probably get the same thing most people do. I get agents that call me every week or carrier reps that call me every week. They're like, "Hey, I heard this on the show. What do you think about this? I want you to come speak on this panel. I want your ideas on this or that." I really am building authority here that I did not dream that I had. It just started snowballing into a place where my wife and I prayed about it. We thought about it a lot. In March of this year, I decided I'm out. I'm leaving Encompass, Allstate. No bad ill will towards them. It's just something I wanted to do. I had a dream and a passion to do this and have a real ministry mindset. I look at this as a way for this to be a ministry for me, to be a calling for me, so to speak. It's probably more than you wanted, but it's exactly what led me to where I'm at today to jump out on my own. I got my LLC and everything started in April, and I'm just full-time in Insurance Town now.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: It's awesome, man. I'm so happy for you. I still remember the conversation that we had. You were driving from Arkansas to some other state that I couldn't point out on a map. You were going to some meeting to another agency or wherever you were going. We were just talking about your ideas. "Who should I interview? How do I get interviews?" I was like, "Dude, just freaking do it. Just do it. And if you do it, what's going to happen is people are going to listen." You know what I mean?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Like that's what happens. The crazy part is that people start listening. I completely agree with not looking at your numbers. Honestly, I couldn't tell you how many downloads I have. I know approximately it goes up a little bit, goes down a little bit. When Carruthers and Cass and Flowers started talking shit, I had to put them back in their place, which is fine. Everyone forgets that I've been here for a while.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I think what's amazing is that you stuck with it. I don't mean that like you were incapable. It is so difficult early on when you launch those first half dozen podcasts and it feels like no one's listening. You see a hundred downloads and you're like, "Oh my God, I put this much energy and effort and passion into something and a hundred people listened." I just say, what if you made those hundred people's day? What if those hundred people, you just changed the way they think about whatever you're talking about? That's worth it.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: You've probably been there too. I've been in rooms where I've been speaking to a crowd of maybe 30 or 40 people, giving my keynote. You think about that same scenario. Let's go back to that hundred number you threw out. I'm in front of a hundred people every week, whether I'm interviewing somebody or talking from my own mic. It's cool to know that every week I'm in front of now more than a hundred people. So if you're thinking about starting your own podcast, whatever industry it is, those numbers don't matter. If 10 people out of that hundred got something out of it and bettered their career or changed something in the industry, you've changed those people. I've gotten those emails. I know you have too. They say, "If I wouldn't listen to your podcast, I would have never adopted this or never done that. It's changed the way I do business."
--:-- [Ryan Hanley addresses the audience directly]
--:-- Ryan Hanley: What's up guys. Sorry to take you away from the episode. As you know, we do not run ads on this show. In exchange for that, I need your help. If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment. If you're on YouTube, leave a rating review. If you're on Spotify or Apple iTunes, that helps the show grow. It helps me bring more guests in. We have a tremendous lineup of people coming in, men and women who have done incredible things, sharing their stories around peak performance, leadership, growth, sales, the things that are going to help you grow as a person and grow your business. They all check out comments, ratings, reviews. They check out all this information before they come on. So as I reach out to more and more people and want to bring them in and share their stories with you, I need your help. Share the show, subscribe if you're not subscribed, and I'd love for you to leave a comment about the show because I read all the comments. If you're on Apple or Spotify, leave a rating review of this show. I love you for listening to this show and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I do creating the show for you. All right, I'm out of here. Peace. Let's get back to the episode.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. The podcast for me, I don't really write that much anymore. I don't do the videos to the industry anymore. Obviously that's not my job. The only thing that I wouldn't give up is this show. I would do it if I had zero sponsors. I have some sponsors. I don't push the sponsors really hard. I have a few companies that help me pay the bills and it's really my only personal income. It's not that much relatively speaking. I don't work the sponsors as hard as Carruthers does or Cast does or Flowers do, or probably even you do, probably to my own detriment. At the same time, I think we all approach this for different reasons. I don't think anyone is right or wrong. I don't think who you interview is right or wrong. I think that's the beauty of this particular genre of communication. It can be whatever you want it to be.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I have another podcast that I do, Capital Region Business Podcast. It's a local podcast for the Albany area. There are days I don't want to do it. But I've started to get introduced and people have started to reach out in my local region. I didn't even know who they were. I'm learning their stories and their stories are awesome. There was a guy who won—I didn't even know this—his gym is probably 10 minutes from where I'm sitting. He built this physical apparatus called the Focus Master. It's like a boxing martial arts thing. When you see in Creed and they're doing the bags with their hands, it's like that, except you can do it by yourself. He won Sweat Ink with Jillian Michaels, a national TV reality show. He was in LA for eight weeks filming this thing, kept making the cut, made it to the final round, and ultimately won. I had no idea. We had to interview him and tell his story. He emailed me the other day and said, "Hey, I got a few new members because of that." I'm like, this is why we tell people stories. This is why you show up and you do the work. You're exactly right.
--:-- Heath Shearon: That was one of the things for me when I started my podcast. The mayor thing was kitschy and cute, but I love the whole small town feel thing. I love the whole community looking out for each other. I love the idea of connecting others and enhancing one's day any way that I can. For me, Insurance Town, as cliche or as niche or kitschy as that small town thing is, it fit my personality perfectly because that's what we do. As you have in your own agency, you see how important that is. You always did, but even more now, to get involved in your community, get involved in things. For me, that's what I want to do for our industry, to connect people.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Going back to my very first sponsor, when they first called me, they said, "Hey, I had 12 new people sign up from listening to your show." I was like, "Holy crap, that's what I'm doing this for." When other people come on, other sponsors, and they start calling me saying, "Hey, I got a new sponsor. I got new customers." Or like I said, those emails you get of, "Hey, I adopted something new because of what Hanley said on your show, or because of what someone said on your show." It makes it all worth it. It makes me feel good about what I'm doing. I'm finally doing something I've always had a passion for in the industry. Being able to do what I love and to run this yapper of mine, it's fun. If I can give back to someone's day every day, it's fantastic.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: The other thing—I know you're calling it kitschy, but I hope no one takes that as anything other than what I think it is. I think it's awesome the way you're presenting it. It's probably the reason why I've become—not just since I started the agency, but over the last few years going to Bold Penguin and then leaving the industry for a time and then coming back into the agency. Moving from Agency Nation to Bold Penguin—not that there was anything wrong with Bold Penguin—I just became slightly more detached from the industry. At the time, they weren't selling to agencies, it was more carrier related. I became a little more detached. Then when I went to the fitness industry, I tried to stay up with what was going on, but I became very detached.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: When I came back, what was amazing to me—and I feel such an obligation to continue to add value back to the industry—as soon as I got canned, my first thought was, "I'm going back to insurance. There's no doubt." As soon as I announced that I was coming back to insurance, it was like I had never left, in terms of the friendships and the partnerships and the connections. It was like I had always been there. I'll always be forever thankful for that. I don't know that the industry realizes, nor do they need to, but for me personally it was incredibly meaningful, as meaningful as anything professionally in my life. It was kind of like, "Oh okay, come on back in." Not the prodigal son has returned, I don't know about all that. It was just nice that you could just call people and it was like, "Hey, here's what you missed. Let's get back to work."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I think what I like about your show is you reinforce the sense of connection that agencies have, that agents have to each other, producer to producer, agency owner to agency owner, account manager to account manager. Across all those chains, there's such a bond, even in quote-unquote competitors. I don't think unless you're in it, you understand. I think it needs to be nurtured. I think you're doing a really good job of it.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Man, I really appreciate that. One of the biggest compliments I ever got—and I try to stay humble—a compliment that I've hung on to forever. When I was working at a company called EMC, my boss back then called me a lot of bad names, but he told me that no one that he's ever met understood the industry better than I did. It meant a lot to me because I may not be the smartest insurance guy. I don't know big words like Ryan Hanley. But honestly, I never felt like I knew coverages like the back of my hand or I never understood the latest and greatest marketing tools. But I knew the industry. I knew how the industry worked. I knew that this industry, more than anything else, is one big great community. It is a way that we can connect to one another. Relationships have always meant a lot to me.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Going back 20 years ago, I still have friends of mine. What's even funnier is when I first started calling on agents 18 years ago, I had agents I would call on that changed my diapers at conventions when my dad was an agent. It's really cool to know that I had that kind of relationship going that far back. I could still call on those people today and they're still friends, whether they're in Mississippi, Arkansas, New York, or Utah. It doesn't matter. It's cool how we're all connected together.
--:-- Heath Shearon: When I got into podcasting—and I hate this term—when people say you become "insurance famous" or whatever, it opened up so many more doors for me. When I got invited to be a part of the Facebook groups that you talked about earlier, or having phone calls with Ryan Hanley or Carruthers or Cass or people that I've looked up to in the industry, and becoming really close friends with different people that I never thought I would. It's really cool when people call me and say, "Hey, I'd like to be on your show." That's a humbling and very cool thing to be a part of. It shows that I'm absolutely in love with this industry. Obviously my God and family, but this industry is just a love of mine that I'll never forget. It's cool to hear you say the same thing, that when you left and came back, it was a welcome with open arms type of deal.
--:-- Heath Shearon: I was one of those people that for a year or so when you were gone, I was like, "Dude, this is not the same." I looked for your videos and I looked for your voice. I've been a fan boy of Ryan Hanley's for a while. It was cool to have you come back. I was one of those who couldn't wait to hear you back on the airwaves.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Well, thank you. I do miss doing the videos with all the camera tricks and stuff. I'm never probably going to do those again. It's funny, I go back and watch those sometimes. I don't search for them, but I'll see them pop up on YouTube when you're scrolling through stuff. All of a sudden, boom, it'll show you one. I'll watch it because I forget I did a lot of those. My last one was like 55. Then I tried to do 56 on my own, and my former employer at the time asked me to stop doing that. That's when the videos kind of came to an end. I think I had to give it a different name. I moved it from "The Show" to "The Ryan Hanley Show" so I wasn't breaking any trademark infringements. Water under the bridge. I have redeveloped a good, solid relationship with our friends at TrustedChoice.com these days, which I'm happy about. That's a very good thing.
--:-- Heath Shearon: It is a good thing. You know what's funny, this is off topic, but do you ever see the movie King Arthur, the latest Guy Ritchie King Arthur? Really cool movie with Charlie Hunnam.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, the badass King Arthur. Sons of Anarchy guy. Yes, a hundred percent.
--:-- Heath Shearon: In that movie, he says something that I don't know why this quote has always stuck with me, but it has. It's actually worked into my real life. I would file the reflaming of my relationship with Chip and everyone over at TrustedChoice.com under this. He says in that movie, "It's better to have friends than enemies." He says it like three or four times in different situations where someone who was of a different nature would have beat the guy up or fought him. He lets them off the hook and brings them in, and they become friends. He does it with the Viking. He does it with the guy that was trying to sell the shirts. I can't remember the whole plot. Go watch the movie. But that's stuck with me since I saw it. I've tried not to hold grudges and say to myself, "It is better to have friends than enemies." That is a better thing. Maybe it's why I've been a little touchier on the socials when people start blaming each other for stuff. That doesn't get anybody anywhere. We don't move forward, and we need to move forward.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That's the truth. This is kind of where I want to take the remainder of our conversation. From my perspective, you have a podcast now and you've been doing it for a while. One of the beauties of the podcast is that you get to examine the perspective of a lot of different people from a lot of different places in the industry. I feel as strongly as ever that we have to keep moving forward together. That rhyme was unintentional. I don't think we can do it alone anymore.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Billy Vanjura was kind of bashing aggregators and stuff. I get where he's coming from. That's not a knock on Billy. But I said to him, "You've never seen Indium. You've never spent any time with CLI and what they're doing, or Smart Choice, or Canyon Lands." Or Goosehead. Goosehead agents. Billy Wagner is an enormous proponent of Brightway and the things they're doing. Can aggregators be a negative? Maybe. But done right, they can really be a productive place. I don't see startup agencies—I'm blessed that I have this show. I've leveraged this notoriety to get appointments unequivocally. My business plan and my performance in COVID do not necessarily justify some of the appointments that I have. I'm aware of that. I'll make good on it down the road, but it certainly doesn't justify it at face value. If you don't have this platform and you try to go on your own, it'd be impossible. If we want fresh blood in the space, then we need aggregators. I said to him, "Take a look at Indium." He called Indium. He tweeted me back and said, "I was wrong. They're different." There are others. I use Indium. They're not a sponsor or anything. I just love Chad. Well, I love Chad Eddie too. He's a good friend of mine.
--:-- Heath Shearon: On that note, and this is a soapbox I probably stand on too often, and I say this a lot on my show probably. If you look back 10 years ago, the talk around the industry was that small independent agents are going to go away. They're going to be bought up in mergers and acquisitions. If you're smaller than $5 million in premium, you're not going to make it, or whatever that arbitrary number was. That's a total different shift now. You fast forward to 2020, 2021. I think it's a different shift now. The ones that are going to make it, the ones that are going to be still around 10 years from now, are the small mom and pop shops that can pivot. They can change directions quickly. They can adopt technology quicker. They're more nimble. I'm proud of it. I'm going to differ from you a bit because I feel like aggregators are a big part of that. Gooseheads are a big part of that. The people like that are a big part of that, instead of the big bank-owned giant behemoth agencies. Now we're seeing those—to throw out my sponsor, Smart Choice—they'll help those little guys that are startups, and they're going to be the ones that are thriving.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Going back to the community aspect, we need each other. Another shout out, whether you like them or not, is DJ and them over at IOA. The way they connected people, whether you're a fan or not, or whether you think it's this way or that way, they brought about a community. Same thing that PIA or Big I has been doing for years, but they found a way to do it that brought people closer through social media.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: IOA has the slogan down perfectly: "Better together." That's their slogan. I think they're 100% right. I think they do amazing things. The amazing part about the time period that we are currently living in is you can be a Big I member, an IOA member, a member of Smart Choice. You can have two direct appointments. You can have a referral partner and a health benefits company. You can use Tarmica and you can use this other thing. It's okay. That path, that thing, it's like your fingerprint. I'm getting licensed in Florida and California. I used to go get fingerprinted. It's like your fingerprint. The groups you choose to operate in, the technology you choose to use, the systems.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I've been working with Matt Namoli and Chris Paradiso on EOS. I want to implement EOS in Rogue. We haven't started it yet, but I've been talking about them. They're huge believers in it. I know a lot of other agencies. When Stromso was on the podcast, he said that he uses it. It's one way to operate an organization or an agency, but it's not the only way. It may work for you. It may not work for you. My point in saying all that is we each get to have this unique thumbprint, and we need to support each other as much as possible in building the thumbprint that is right for us. Your thumbprint is going to be different than my thumbprint. Some places it may look similar, but in other places it's going to look different. That has to be okay today.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: The idea that PIA New York and Big I New York fight each other tooth and nail over the stupidest things is bananas to me. I can't even get involved in it. People have asked me my opinion, and I'm like, "It's all dumb." These two organizations that are supporting agents fight each other, legitimately fight each other on different things. The nuance to those differences is bananas. I get it, they're both businesses and they're both entrenched. To say that one should take over the other or they should merge, those are implausibilities. But I do think that this idea of us being very accepting of "you're a PIA agent, I'm a Big I agent," or vice versa, it just doesn't matter. It's almost impossible for us to be the same. If we can accept that and grow together, there's so much information to share and learn.
--:-- Heath Shearon: It goes back to one of the things that my wife and I always say. Whether it's Big I or PIA or IOA or whatever—and I'm going to go somewhere with this, so bear with me a minute—I always say, whatever you're getting involved in, you're going to get out what you put in. If you're one of those that sit on the sideline, you put your head down, you only work in your own agency, you don't get involved in anything else, you're not going to thrive near as well as if you're involved in our industry. Whether it's whatever association you decide to get into, you've got to get involved in our community. You've got to get involved in the industry. You've got to learn people's what they want to do, how they do things. You may not have ever heard of EOS unless you knew Chris and Matt. It's true. I had not heard of EOS until they threw it at me. I would have never heard about half the stuff I've heard about until I got involved in our industry over the last 10 or 15 years and got to know certain things that are going on. I've known about podcasts. I never even heard of podcasting until I found your show and other people's shows. If you're listening to this and you're not involved in the industry in some way, form, or fashion, or in your community or in a niche association or whatever it is, crawl out from under a rock and get involved. The only way you're going to better your industry or your agency for that matter.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I think that's a soapbox of mine. No, I think you're a hundred percent right. I've said it a million times. There's only one rule on this show: if you catch a tangent, you got to stay on it. Never cut a story short. To surmise or boil down what you just said, there's no reason to be or to feel alone. If you don't like that feeling. If you're the kind of person that's the lone wolf warrior and that's the way you operate, God bless you. It's America. You can do whatever you want. But if you feel alone and you don't want that feeling, know that you can email me,
[email protected]. You can email Heath. I'm not going to throw your email out there unless you want to. Feel free to reach out because there's so many ways to stay connected and meet other people. I have agents that I talk to once a quarter on the other side of the country. We just check in on each other. "How's it going, man?" "I'm doing great. I hired a producer." Or, "Hey, I'm really struggling with—" Someone emailed me the other day. "Hey, I'm struggling with the third email in my commercial line sequence. What would you recommend?"
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I mean, I just said, "Hey, I'll export my email sequence. I'll send it to you. Use whatever makes sense. I don't care." So those things are so available.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Oh, yeah. 100%.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Don't feel alone. I guess that's the point. If you're listening to this, if you're a producer and you feel like you're on an island in your agency, there are ways for you to stay connected and get connected regardless of where you sit. If you're an account manager and you're looking to do something different, or you just want to be better at your job, or you want to move up, there are places for you to go. All it takes is a simple reach out. So never feel alone.
--:-- Heath Shearon: No, I completely agree. And it's
[email protected]. I would accept those as well. There are so many people in this industry that have reached out and become friends with me over the last year and a half even, that have changed the way I look at this industry from what I already did. I've always been in love with this industry, but I love that. Don't feel alone, because I think that we need each other in this industry, and we're so much closer now than we ever have been because of social media, the internet, the pandemic, whatever. I find it fascinating. I'm so blessed that I'm in this industry, that I'm in this small town of Insurance Town, and I'm a self-elected mayor there. It means a lot to me. So I love where you went with that. I appreciate that.
--:-- So my last question for you: you can interview anybody in the insurance space right now. We're going to put this out into the world. You can interview anybody in the insurance space right now. You get to pick. They're going to say yes regardless. You just have to say their name. Who is it?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: If you were to ask me this several months ago, I said Billy Williams, but I had Billy Williams. So if I want to continue this southern kiss in your ass, I'd say Ryan Hanley because you don't have my show yet. But man, that's a tough one. I don't know the answer to that. I'm still trying to learn all the names and the people that I'd want to hear. But if I could have any guests say yes to me outside of our industry or in our industry, I'd have to say Simon Sinek. I'd love to have him on my show. I'd love to hear what he has to say. Another person I would love to have on my show that would say yes would have to be John C. Maxwell. I'm a huge fan of John Maxwell. He's such a great leader guy and talks about leadership. Some of my favorite quotes come from that guy. But as far as within our industry, that's a good question. And I don't have a good answer. So you have to edit this part out because I have no good answer.
--:-- Heath Shearon: No, that's fine. That's all right. So what Heath needs is good suggestions. Email him,
[email protected]. Good suggestions for interesting people who have things to say in our space.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: For me, one of the places that I would love to go, I would love to interview more CEOs and leaders inside of carriers. I find the carrier business to be very, very interesting. I think that they are the punching bag of our space sometimes, warranted, sometimes unwarranted. I found carrier people to be very interesting. I think there's a lot more there than a lot of agents assume. Some of my favorite interviews have been people inside of carriers.
--:-- Heath Shearon: On this note, we'll put this out there because you could probably help me here. One of the carriers I've never had dealings with personally, but even in competition with them and hearing from other agents that say what an incredible company they are, is Cincinnati. If you've got a CEO contact with somebody at Cincinnati, whatever they're doing, contact. But if anyone from Cincinnati's listening, Sean Gibler would be a great interview. He runs all of commercial lines for Cincinnati, just recently took that position. I just hear so many good things about that carrier, especially here in Arkansas. They do really well. And I've heard you talk about them. Another one I would love to talk to, if we're going to talk CEOs, it'd be Tyler Asher or Michael Rocco, some of those type people.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: We can make that happen. Just email me offline. I know both those guys.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Yeah. We can get Tyler. Tyler and Mike are both awesome dudes.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: For me, it would be Trisha Griffith from Progressive. I've met her. She was on a panel at Elevate, and she did a podcast. I did a brief podcast with her for Agency Nation, but for a bunch of different reasons, we kind of had to be a little more... I would love to get a more raw version of her story because she seems like a badass and super smart. I also felt that she was very composed. On stage at Elevate 2018, LaRocco took a shot at her because he stayed auto. He took a pretty gnarly shot at her right on stage in front of 800 people. Not a physical shot, verbal shot across the bow. The grace and composure that she kept, if someone had said that about my company, I would have... And she had this great answer and came back and was very composed. At the end, I don't think he looked like the winner in that. That's not a knock on Mike. He was defending his base and what he was trying to do. I don't fault him for it. I don't know that it was the best venue for what he said, but I don't fault him for saying it because he has his territory to protect and he was trying to do that. But I was very, very impressed with her. I would love to be able to do an hour-long, a little more raw version and just get more of her story. I think it would be very interesting.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Yeah, that'd be awesome.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'd also love to find some 80-something, 90-something old man who started in the industry way back in the day and is still somewhat involved, just to see that evolution and what it was like back in the 50s or 60s in the industry versus now. Selfless promo: I just interviewed Aaron Gordon earlier this morning, and he was talking about his dad, 80 years old, still involved in the agency. I'd love to get him on with Aaron and just talk about what it was like.
--:-- Heath Shearon: My dad's 77, still slinging insurance. I hear his stories, but I'd love to hear those old school stories. I'd love to go sit in an old insurance nursing home, so to speak, and just talk to a bunch of old heads that have been there and fought in the trenches and done the old school method when we didn't have Google and internet, the old school knocking doors. That would be a cool conversation.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: This is the last thing I'll say, and then we'll wrap this up. My father-in-law has been in the industry, same kind of similar to your dad, a little bit younger, but same generation. He always talks about the books. You'd take the Liberty Mutual book under your right arm. You'd open the book up and go, "Okay, how old are you? 55. Okay. And you're this. And you'd put this and you add this in there." And you're like, "Okay, you want uninsured motorist. Okay. Let's go find that one. And what kind of car?" And then you come up with a manual rate right on the spot. You have them sign it, write a check. And then you mail all that to the company. You're like, "Oh my God." You can see why, when you think about how it actually had to be done, when you get down to timing. Some of the weird rules around that seem weird today with e-sign and e-payments. It happens so instantaneously. You question why there's so much regulation around when is a policy officially enforced, what is bound versus issued mean, how many days do you have to rescind an offer. Not in the too distant past, you'd sign something, put a check down, have a rate, and then literally it would be days or weeks before the insurance company would even know that you had a policy. It's wild when you think about what it was like not too long ago. So yeah, it'd be a cool conversation to have.
--:-- Heath Shearon: Yeah. Cool. All right. Hey, dude. Awesome. I'm so glad we finally did this. You said that I've never been on your show. Obviously I'm always willing and look forward to the day that you finally allow me to grace your airways. We'll have a fun chat as well. But I appreciate you, dude.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: For anyone listening to this, and I've said this in the intro as well, subscribe to Insurance Town Podcast. If you enjoy this podcast, you're going to love Insurance Town. Heath gets the highest recommendation from me. You're probably going to start listening to Heath and stop listening to this show. My numbers are going to go down, which I'm fine with. So subscribe to Insurance Town Podcast. I appreciate you, man. We're going to get out of here.
--:-- [Closing advertisement]
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