--:-- Ryan Hanley: Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have an absolutely tremendous episode for you. A conversation with Brandon Smith, the Executive Vice President at Glidewell. He's a speaker. You've probably seen him out on the circuit. And he has a producer development course that I wanted to talk to him about.
--:-- I want to talk to him about producers in general and what it means to bring producers along. How do we help the producers in our industry be more successful? I don't love the word producer, but personally I don't have a better option and everyone seems to understand what it means. So I don't like to overcomplicate things.
--:-- That all being said, production is an enormous part of our business, enormous part. And everyone seems to struggle with finding producers, finding the right producers, finding producers that are going to buy into their strategy, stick with them, grow their business. And I think that producers... I think it's hard, right? Production is very hard. And we don't always train our producers the way that they want to be trained or need to be trained. And it's just hard because we're also running agencies and all this kind of stuff.
--:-- So I wanted to bring Brandon on, talk about how do you train producers, what he's doing, what his producer training program is all about, and how he's seen producers become successful. What is the path to a successful producer? What does that look like? I think you're going to love this conversation.
--:-- Before we get there, I want a big shout out, huge shout out to one of our sponsors of this show, Coterie Insurance. Guys, Coterie Insurance is changing the game for small commercial. They're making it easy, accessible, fast. They're taking the burden off all the transactional nonsense that destroys our business so that you can focus on helping your clients. They're reinventing... I shouldn't say reinventing. They are drastically innovating the way in which we sell small commercial and we're using Coterie all the time. Absolutely love the company. Love what they're doing. Love the leadership. We've had a few of their people on the show. So I hope you've enjoyed those.
--:-- Guys, Coterie is the kind of company that I think is reestablishing what we expect from our carriers, right? I've talked about it a bunch, talked about it last episode with Will Shaw. There is this disposition that carriers have that you should be appreciative or they have bestowed upon you something overly, you know, some gift by appointing you. And I don't believe that that should be the dynamic. I think that dynamic is toxic in many ways. I think it creates a combative nature between carrier and agency. And you don't get any of that from Coterie, right? They're looking for agents. They want to empower independent agencies to write small commercial in a way that is easy and efficient. And I'm so glad that I found them, that I've gotten to know them, and that every day we are building them deeper into our agency and writing more business with them. So I highly recommend Coterie Insurance. That's C-O-T-E-R-I-E, C-O-T-E-R-I-E, Coterie Insurance. Go to CoterieInsurance.com today.
--:-- I also want to give a huge shout out to Chris Langell and the team over at Advisory Evolved. I get asked all the time about my website. Who did your website? Is this some kind of custom build? No, it's a Langell special. Go over to Advisory Evolved if you need a website. There are other options in the market. They're just not as good as Advisor Evolved. It's just the uptime, the service, the additional tools you get, the design, the SEO, all of it, it just works and it's done the right way.
--:-- There are other people who put window dressing on a website and make it look nice and whatever, but behind the scenes... and I don't expect you guys to be technical, so I don't expect you to understand all this stuff... but they put window dressing on a website and then behind the scenes is a disaster. That's not the case with Advisory Evolved. I've been using Chris's website... this is not a joke... for a decade. He has been, he is the guy who has done every website that I've had for over a decade. And I keep going back to him not just because he's my buddy, but because he does a great job. If his websites didn't produce, I wouldn't use him. These are businesses. So, AdvisoryEvolved.com. AdvisoryEvolved.com. AdvisoryEvolved.com.
--:-- All right, let's get on to Brandon Smith.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yo, what's up man?
--:-- Brandon Smith: Hey dude, how are you?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'm good. How about those Bills? How about them Bills, dude? Between the poor officiating or lots of penalties, I don't know how you...
--:-- Brandon Smith: It's too much. It's too much on both sides, in my opinion.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Oh, it was terrible. It was non-stop. There was no flow to the game. It just kept being interrupted.
--:-- Brandon Smith: Yeah. But I mean, I think I'm savvy enough with sports to see Josh Allen complete 55% of his passes and still have 315 yards, no touchdowns. I mean, his ceiling is so high.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. He... I think what I thought happened last night, and what I was as a Bills fan having lived through... I really became a Bills fan the year before the four Super Bowls, right? I really became old enough to understand the game and what was going on and the gravity of it. So I turned when I was nine. That's really when I kind of was like, "Oh, I'm a Bills fan. My family's a Bills fan. Okay. Now I know what this means." Then the next year was the Giant Super Bowl that was wide, right? So obviously I was a little heartbroken, but I certainly didn't understand the gravity. And then they're so good the four years, and then you come off of being right there, missing four years, and then what was it, 20 plus years of just being terrible? I mean, not even just bad, like really, really bad.
--:-- And to see the team now and to see Allen make Chris Collinsworth literally in real time change his opinion because he was just fellating the Chiefs the whole time... I mean from start to finish it was Chiefs, Chiefs, Chiefs, Chiefs, "maybe this Bills team can get lucky," and then in real time have to change his opinion. That was a special evening, in my opinion. I wish it had happened earlier. It's tough with that delay. The delay was really difficult for East Coasters, but that was still pretty special.
--:-- Brandon Smith: That's true. Yeah, that was late for you.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, yeah. But whatever. I mean, I think they're probably the hottest team, best team in the league right now. And if they're not in the AFC Championship, they did something wrong. Without injuries, they're in the AFC Championship game. Without injuries. And the thing with our league and 17 games... Our league, Jesus. The thing with this league... I really only root for the Bills. I didn't... I love baseball. I played baseball. Baseball was my... this was like my... baseball and football is what I played growing up. Played college baseball. Played baseball after college. But I don't really have a favorite team. I've never really... I love Jeter. I like the Yanks. But like, I was never a diehard Yankees fan. The Mets are terrible. So I don't really have a favorite baseball team. I don't really have a favorite college sports team. I hate the NBA. So the only team that I follow, like team team that I follow, is the Bills. So it's kind of like I don't have anybody else. It's not like, "Oh, it's baseball season. Now I'm going to watch this team." It's just the Bills.
--:-- Brandon Smith: Yeah. How far are you from the stadium?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: It takes me about four hours, four and a half hours to get there.
--:-- Brandon Smith: Yeah. Are you going to any games? Do you have tickets for anything this season?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Well, right now there is a vaccine mandate to get in the building. And I'm a one-shotter. And I'm probably not getting my second shot because... yeah, exactly. Probably not. I didn't want to get the first shot. So I've had COVID diagnosed, so I have the antibodies. But I still didn't want people... and me getting the shot... and I have no problem sharing this with the audience... but me getting the shot was 100% peer pressure. I just didn't want people to feel uncomfortable around me because, you know, in truth, if they haven't had COVID, I'm better protected. I have the antibodies. I've actually had it twice. So I felt very comfortable personally, but I didn't want other people to feel uncomfortable around me. So I was like, "Okay, I'll go get the shot." And plus you do speaking and stuff. So I was like, "Okay, I'll go get the shot. No problem. I'll be vaccinated."
--:-- They don't have Johnson and Johnson around here anymore, so I had to go get Pfizer. Dude, the way the Pfizer shot made me feel, I was like, "This can't be healthy for you." My lymph node under my arm was so swollen it looked like I had a wing, not an arm, for like a week. I couldn't put my arm down. I was sick. I felt terrible. I had all kinds of pain in my arm and my side. And I'm sure that now I'm protected better, but I just was like, "Nope, I'm good." I've had COVID twice and I got the shot. I'm good, bro. I'm good. I feel like I'm doing my civic duty. And there I am.
--:-- Brandon Smith: I'm right with you. I mean, in our age and health and lifestyle, statistically, you have to use logic at some point. Unfortunately, the answer is no, you don't have to use logic. You can just say whatever you want and as long as you finish it with "follow the science," you're right. And it doesn't matter what side you're on. It's just "follow the science, bro." It's ridiculous. It's crazy.
--:-- So we went Saturday to University of Montana football game. Go into our seats. And the people next to us, as we're going to our seats, they turn and go, "Are you guys vaccinated?" I was like, "Do you use Viagra? Yeah. Are you on lithium? Are you taking a blood thinner? Have you ever had, do you currently have gonorrhea?" All these really personal questions that are no one's business.
--:-- And I guess my thing in general in life, and it's probably obvious if anyone follows me on Twitter or is listening to the show for any amount of time, they know what my general politics are. My wife always says... she refers to herself as a conservative. And I always tell her I'm not really a conservative. I'm not. Because a lot of the social stuff... I just don't have any... I don't mix my religion and what I think is right. I think that's a big part of the problem.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, that isn't what it was in the 80s.
--:-- Brandon Smith: Yeah. That's my issue with conservatism. They're doing the same things to liberal people that liberal people are trying to do to conservatives. They're like, "Well, I feel God told me that this is immoral, so I'm going to tell you that you shouldn't be able to do it." I'm like, "No, that's not really how it works." If you honestly believe that, and we live in a free country which we do, you get to have your life and I get to have mine. And we can believe morally those things are different, but as long as we're not hurting each other, we should all be able to live together.
--:-- I started calling myself... this probably isn't right... a "libertist." Because I don't like "libertarian" because they get a little too wacky with chaos theory and anarchy. I'm not down with all that. So I started calling myself a libertist. You live your life, I live mine. As long as we're not hurting each other, we're good. I don't know how that works, but that's kind of where I come down on all this.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I like it. And I found myself to be more... it's funny... more in the middle. Not libertarian, but not independent because I think that's just an excuse for...
--:-- Brandon Smith: I agree. It feels good.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I think when I hear someone say "I'm an independent"... again, I don't want to be judgy... but when I hear people say that, what I really feel like they're saying is, "I want to be able to live without taking a side so that if I'm with a bunch of liberals, I can be like, 'Oh, I'm independent. I'm cool. I'm not one of them.' And then if you're with your conservative friends, you'd be like, 'I'm independent. I'm cool. I'm not one of them.'" And I'm like, "Well, you have beliefs. I don't know."
--:-- Brandon Smith: I don't know. And I do understand, dude. And this is the thing that I think is... and we can get off of politics because probably everyone who's listening either hates us or loves us right now, and based on my politics I think just about everybody hates me. But I completely understand... Joe Rogan talks about this all the time... that I kind of understand where you are. I understand all your viewpoints. Just from following you on socials and stuff, I probably have a decent feel of where you're at.
--:-- There is a group of people, and I think there's a very large group, and I would put myself in this group and maybe you too... I don't really relate to either party at all. Maybe a little bit, probably a little more on the Republican side than the Democratic side. But there's just... I feel like there's this gap of belief in the middle that so many of my friends actually would fall in. So many people I know and like and trust would fall into. And it just doesn't fit. It's a very odd place.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. I wonder if it's our demographic, our generation, because that seems to be where the majority is. We're between the two different sides. But I keep coming back to just logic. You have to use logic. You have to use your brain at some point and look through things and see.
--:-- To me, the biggest... and then we can get away from politics... the biggest law that I hate, I despise, is ticketing someone and fining them for not wearing their seatbelt. I wear my seatbelt. I'm all for it. I believe it saves lives. You should wear your seatbelt. But when government comes in... and I'm not saying I hate the law, I hate the principle of you're removing the free choice from people and now you're making money and taxing them on that behavior. That's what I hate.
--:-- Brandon Smith: I think you would be okay with that. Here's how I know you'd be okay with that. If that money 100% went back into, dollar for dollar, a community program or something, or into community... The problem in general is that we can't trust where the money is going. And you don't see any of the benefit of where the money of these things is going. So taxes go up, nothing in your life gets better.
--:-- And I'm all for... if I were to run for office... trust me, I've thought about it because I think I... and if I had another... if I didn't have a business that I was running, I would run. I have a lot of viewpoints on these particular topics because I think we're so far from where this country was supposed to go.
--:-- I completely get the argument that the founding fathers were imperfect. I 100% understand that argument. I think they took the best shot that they could take at the time, understanding where they were, right? And all of them were imperfect. And I 100% agree with that because people go, "This person had slaves." Well, yeah, no shit. They were imperfect people. And I don't think that the way they lived their life is necessarily right. I think they were taking the best shot they could.
--:-- What I think they were hoping for is that we would ultimately evolve to that better place. And what I feel like we've lost is that while we are still very imperfect, we have made incredible strides in a faster amount of time than any other collection of humans ever in history to go from where we were in 1776 to where we are today. And maybe not today, maybe like the beginning of the Obama years, or the first term Obama years. You take 1776 to there. And man, we came a long, long way in a relatively short amount of time in human history. And I feel like we've just completely lost track of that. Instead of continuing to iterate to better places, it's like, "Let's just blow everything up."
--:-- And I get... and this is going to eventually take us into the conversation around producers and all the stuff that you're doing that I really want to talk about. I'm very, very interested. But one of the things that I really struggle with in our current rhetoric, the current conversation, discourse is probably the right word, is this idea of holding up beta traits as the most desirable traits to have. What I mean by that is not everyone is an alpha in every category. And some people will not be an alpha in any category. And some of that will be by choice, some of it will be by unfortunate circumstances. And I think as much as we can, we need to support those people, make sure that they're productive, happy, and live lives that allow them to be whatever they can be.
--:-- But I'm very concerned... and this is that horrible cliche of "everyone gets a trophy." I watch this now, seeing my kids and seeing some of the environments that they're in. And it really makes me concerned that we aren't putting our veterans on a pedestal. That we aren't looking at the most successful people and emulating them. We're trying to tear them down.
--:-- I don't give a shit how many dollars Jeff Bezos pays in taxes. And anyone that takes a stance on "Jeff Bezos needs to pay more in taxes"... Look, I don't like that our politicians have been corrupted to promote big business over small business. And that's a big part of Rogue Risk, right? It's supporting small business. But holy shit, bro, the things that this dude has innovated in our world, and Elon Musk has innovated in our world. If they don't have the runway that they have, who makes those changes? Who evolves and innovates? The government? The lives they've impacted, the amount of wealth Bezos has created for other people... for other people... it's phenomenal.
--:-- Brandon Smith: I don't know if you saw it yet. I actually had this thought this morning. I tweeted something on the lines of, "Why have we as a society come to the place where we celebrate victimhood rather than celebrating people for their accomplishments and what they do?" There's been a flip in what we celebrate. We give trophies and awards. And it just baffles me.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. Look how... and granted, I am all for... and I'm not putting lip service to this... I am all for creating more opportunities for people who are born into true... I don't want to say victimhood, but situations that are out of their control. There are tens, hundreds of thousands of kids that are born into situations that are just absolutely terrible. And we need to get them out of those situations to be able to lead productive, happy, successful, as healthy as possible lives.
--:-- But to your point, I think those two things get convoluted. We're not talking about actual people who are victims and those people need help. What we're doing is saying we have a contest to be who can be the most victimized. "I'm the most victimized, so you all should give some of your hard-earned stuff to me because I'm the most victimized." And it's like, no, no, no. That's not... we don't... we shouldn't celebrate that. We should solve it. Those are two different things. Celebrating and solving are two very different things. Solve the fact that you've been victimized. If you actually have been, we need to solve that problem for sure. But why are we... it just defeats the point. It defeats what the country was based on.
--:-- And one of my buddies goes, "Well, Jesus, don't you believe in racism?" Yeah, I do. I freaking know people who are, and they're assholes. And I get that. But what are we going to do? By not helping people be the best version of themselves... the people who are victimized... we're letting the asshole racist win. That's the way I look at it. We're letting them win because that's all they really want.
--:-- Brandon Smith: I'm right there with you. I love hearing it.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I don't know. I didn't expect to go there.
--:-- Brandon Smith: I know. I did not. But that's all right.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Well, hey, if we haven't lost everyone at 18 minutes, I want to talk about... dude, you're doing some amazing stuff. We'll put that whole part of the conversation on pause and we can talk about that some other time. But I just think we need to create more situations where people can be successful. And I think our industry has an amazing opportunity. That's kind of where my brain was when I went down this path, and then we got a little skew.
--:-- But I think the concept of the producer... and I don't really love that word in general, mostly because it's just an odd word... but that being said, it's not really my point. I think production sales in insurance is an opportunity to help really give people whatever kind of life they want. And it was the starting point for me to pull myself out of poor shit growing up. The kids used to call my house the crack house. We used to say the criminals didn't steal in our town, they lived in our town. That was where I came from. So insurance changed all of that for me.
--:-- So I see the work you're doing with producers and the information you're putting out and how you're teaching people to be successful. And that's really where I wanted to take this whole conversation.
--:-- Brandon Smith: Well, that's awesome. And I appreciate that. There's so many different places we could jump in. The truth is, everything you just said... the opportunity for people to grow and become successful, do something with themselves. And I honestly, I don't love insurance. Insurance isn't my passion. That isn't what gets me up and gets me going. It's the opportunities, the people, the conversations, the social science and studying human nature and the development of our industry. And my passion is motivating, encouraging, and challenging people to be the best version of themselves. And insurance just happens to be the industry we're in.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'm right with you. The word "producer" is awkward and uncomfortable, but "agent" is almost worse. I wish we could come up with something that was a little more user-friendly and conversational and rewarding. What do you think about just "sales"? Just "I'm in sales. I'm a salesperson."
--:-- Brandon Smith: Sales... this whole thing... I mean, that's kind of vague, and there's another stereotype there. But sales... then you can get all technical, "risk manager" or "risk advisor." And I just... we're in the industry of helping people. Whether that's with their insurance needs or growing their business or having the best life possible. And so that's the approach I took with producers a couple of years ago.
--:-- I just wasn't seeing anything in my, at the time, 18 years in the industry. Hadn't seen a program that was focused on developing new producers. We as agency owners, we'd hire producers, hire staff. They'd pass the test, they're licensed, and we'd say, "All right, go network." And they don't know what that means. They don't know how to do that.
--:-- Everything I saw in training for producers was either a $20,000 Grant Cardone, very vague, big hype, go sell with no practical application for our industry. It was taught by an 185-year-old dude in a sterile conference room and a suit and tie that he bought during the Great Depression. And he's got some great ideas and strategies, but the world has changed. No denying that. Or third, it comes from a carrier with a slant to sell more of their product. They always went on the back end.
--:-- And so I was like, "Gosh, there's got to be a way to help some of these young producers who are getting licensed." And like 90% of agents get licensed and leave the industry in 24 months. Why is that? We know the opportunity. We know the earning capacity. Why are so many struggling? And so I thought, "Gosh, that's what I love doing is helping and motivating, encouraging and challenging people. So I'm going to help these producers."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I love it. I think that especially with everything that's going on with employment right now, there's a major opportunity in our space to find people who... now, the difficult part is pulling people into our industry because you have to be able to float those first six months at a minimum of them getting licensed, getting acclimated, terminology, workflows, all that kind of stuff. That's tough for a lot of, especially younger agencies that are looking to grow.
--:-- I actually did a video on LinkedIn today about this. What I think is a core bug in our core operating system of the industry is that once an agency principal hits their personal number, whatever that income number is, it could be $150,000, it could be $500,000 in personal income. Once they hit it, they do nothing after that. All innovation, all growth ends. They don't upgrade systems. They don't do anything. They just sit on it because they've hit their lifestyle button. And I think that's an amazing part of our industry that that's possible. The issue is it doesn't help young, aspiring, ambitious producers, men and women who are looking to take their career, and it doesn't help them grow.
--:-- So, a couple of things. I'm very interested selfishly in how you recommend bringing in and training people outside the industry. That's one. And then two, how you take someone who's been in the industry for maybe one to three years who hasn't gotten the training that you have and how they can... what's the best way to get them to the next level? Those are the two issues that I see. How do you get people in? And then once they're in and they've been here for a year or two and they feel a little disenfranchised, a little stagnated, that's when they usually leave. How do we push them to the next level so that they feel very supported and can really grow?
--:-- Brandon Smith: Yeah. Oftentimes I've found that what's going on in my business professional life mirrors, has a lot of parallels to what's going on internally in my own personal life and development. And it would make sense that the two are tied together. So over this last couple of years of just the craziness of what we've seen as a country and as a world, one of my objectives was to just simplify my life.
--:-- And in that, I started seeing in business... you and I both have been, I mean, we've traveled the country. We've been at different conferences and events. And there's all these big ideas, these big strategies. And we throw out terms like "data" and "innovation" and "insurtech." And it's all big. And if you're not doing this, then you're missing out. You're not going to get a piece of the pie.
--:-- And I realized, if we want to simplify our lives, sometimes it's okay to just think inside the box. You always hear every speaker say, "It's time to think outside the box." But what if we just got back to just thinking inside the box?
--:-- Brandon Smith: Like there's some very simple tools, ideas, strategies that work in sales, in insurance that have worked for hundreds of years. And so just refining those skills, I have found to be huge.
--:-- So a lot of agency owners... let me, I don't want to say a lot. There are agency owners who present themselves as being more successful than they actually are. The truth is, when you look at numbers, there's a lot of struggling agents out there, a lot of struggling agencies.
--:-- Brandon Smith: And so it takes a little bit of humility to say, "Gosh, I don't have all the answers. Can you help me?" And a lot of those agencies, the principal is producing. They're generating the revenue. So for me to hire a new producer and bring them on and train them and develop them and teach them systems and strategies, I have to stop producing for a timetable to get them up to speed. That really hurts revenue, hurts cash flow for a small mom and pop agency. I just lived through this. That's what the majority of agencies are. Like 80% of agencies are less than five employees. So it's painful, not just to find talent, but to train them. You have to stop production.
--:-- So one of my goals was to bring in a program that comes alongside the agency owner that says, "Hey, you go through this course, go learn this, watch these videos, learn this while I'm producing. And then when you're done, let's touch base and talk and figure out how we can bring that into our DNA, into our culture and our agency." So it becomes a win-win. That's kind of how I would answer your first question. It's like how to train. Simple. Just getting back to the basics, learning to ask the right questions, how to overcome objections, things that came natural to those of us that are running agencies. But we forget that sometimes we have to go back and think inside the box and train not just insurance coverage or how to get a lead in front of you, but how to understand coverage and communicate that to a prospect.
--:-- Early in my career... I give my father-in-law a hard time all the time because he's super old school and can still barely use a computer, but he's still one of the best insurance salesmen I've ever come across. In a pure act of humility, I still clean my wife's office. So every Saturday or Sunday, I take an hour. Granted, I'm listening to a podcast. This has kind of become "me time." I almost like it. I'm like, "Oh, I got to go." But really in my head, I'm like, "Yes, I get an hour and a half."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: You messed up her office. You make her office just dirty all week so it takes longer.
--:-- Brandon Smith: Yeah. So I'll head over to her office and go in and vacuum and take the garbage out. But sometimes when I'm over there, he'll be sitting down with somebody selling them insurance. And I listen to what he says. This is the crazy part, and this is why I wrote down "think inside the box." I kind of love that. Because he is telling the same exact stories that I learned listening to him 16 years ago when I first started at the Murray Group. He's telling the same stories today.
--:-- The other day he says to me... I see him, and the people leave. I'm cleaning or whatever, and the people leave. I said, "Did you sell them?" And he goes, "They're sold when they pick up the phone." And in his mind, he's not wrong. He just doesn't do anything flashy. It's just question, story, question, story, question, story all the way down that list. And at the end, they're just like, "Yep, there's no other option but to buy insurance from him," because he has asked them a set of questions and followed that up with anecdotal stories that reinforce why this coverage is important. That doesn't have anything to do with the CRM. That's not important. Doesn't have anything to do with proposal software. Again, not that that's not important, but those simple concepts are what sell insurance.
--:-- And Hanley, you just answered question number two. How do you find people? You build relationships. You tell stories about your lifestyle, the impact you're making on your community, the difference you're making in the lives of friends, family, neighborhood. And people want to be a part of that and want to do what you're doing. And now you're finding new talent to come onto your team. You've got to build relationships. What your father-in-law is one of the best at doing. And you've got to find, build relationships and find new talent. It's essentially selling yourself. It's the same game, if you will. But it all comes back to making the focus people and not products, people and not procedures, people and not policies. People-minded first.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm not going to say that I'm the best leader in any regard, but I will say, going back to the Trusted Choice days in 2014, I was a fully remote employee then. We had a distributed team, most of which was either in Wisconsin or Minnesota, Minneapolis, but still distributed in general. Probably like a third, a third, a third.
--:-- What I was able to learn there is, when you're not sharing the same physical space... I think what happens sometimes is when someone is in the same office with you sharing the same physical space, there are a ton of benefits to it. So I don't knock office space at all. We don't have an office today officially, but I understand why people do. And there are many times when I wish that we had one, but half my team is all spread all over. When you're not sharing physical space, you can't take for granted that someone understands what you're saying. Because when you're in the same space, you can kind of take for granted that they understand the mission or they understand what's going on. They understand why you're doing something. And when someone lives in Florida or in Chicago or in Montana and they're working for your company, you have to be very communicative.
--:-- I feel like a lot of the producers... and I'm interested in your feedback, because I'm sure you get a ton of calls too. I get a lot of calls from producers. A pure lack of transparency and communication seems like a major divide between our producers, our producing core in our industry, and leadership. There seems to be a gap there. How do you start to solve that and break down that problem?
--:-- [Podcast host interjection]
--:-- Ryan Hanley: What's up, guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show. In exchange for that, I need your help. If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment if you're on YouTube, leave a rating review if you're on Spotify or Apple iTunes. This helps the show grow. It helps me bring more guests in. We have a tremendous lineup of people coming in, men and women who've done incredible things, sharing their stories around peak performance, leadership, growth, sales, the things that are going to help you grow as a person and grow your business. But they all check out comments, ratings, reviews. They check out all this information before they come on. So as I reach out to more and more people and want to bring them in and share their stories with you, I need your help. Share the show. Subscribe if you're not subscribed. And I'd love for you to leave a comment about the show because I read all the comments. Or if you're on Apple or Spotify, leave a rating review of this show. I love you for listening to this show. And I hope you enjoy listening as much as I do creating the show for you. All right. I'm out of here. Peace. Let's get back to the episode.
--:-- Brandon Smith: Well, I think we've seen a huge shift that started even pre-COVID, pre-politics. Culture used to be what happened inside the four walls of your office. You developed culture. People saw that. People engaged in it. It was physical. It was tangible. And over the last couple of years, culture has been redefined as a common vision. With your team, you've got to communicate the vision, the purpose of what we do. Everything you do points back to the mission, the purpose. We can get into what's more important, the passion, purpose, mission, vision, whatever. Point being is culture is common vision, common purpose, common mission. So when your team believes that they are a part of something bigger than themselves, they have buy-in in that culture, that vision. That gap between producer and leadership closes because you've become equals. Some are rising up and then some are humbling themselves and coming down. But the purpose is to accomplish the job. That's what closes that gap: being a part of something bigger than yourself.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: How do you do that? Like just maybe tactically, how do you get your team to buy in? Let's take an example. I'm one of those maybe late 50s agency owners. I'm saying, "Look, I really like what I do. We've kind of been doing the same thing for a while. I got 10 years left. And I believe that while we've done a good job getting to where we are, maybe we can't do it the same way moving forward. So now we got to make a course correction." I think there are a lot of agencies right now having this discussion internally where they're going, "Man, we've done a lot of things right, for sure. But geez, the next 10 years look like they're going to be a lot different than the previous 20."
--:-- How do you start to build that common vision, common mission? How do you get your producer base on board with, "Hey, we're going to be better risk managers to our middle market," or "We're going to really dial in on small commercial and here's going to be the process," or "Hey, we're going to get rid of small commercial altogether and we're just going to become a high volume shop"? How do we start to communicate this down to our producers and get them on board? These kinds of changes are difficult, but I see a lot of agencies taking them on right now.
--:-- Brandon Smith: There is. I'm working with an agency in the Midwest, in Indiana right now. They've got roughly 10 people on their team. Nine of the 10 are over the age of 55. That one was just hired in the last three months at 23 years old. There's a whole lot of this going on right now in the office. Not because of principles and insurance, but because of mindset, way of doing business, way of communicating with clients. These nine over here have never used SMS or text message in communicating with clients. This new employee, it's very natural and normal. They didn't even ask how to communicate. They just picked up their phone and started texting clients. This producer at 23 is outperforming the producer who has been doing it for years.
--:-- The challenge... I think this is something new. I don't know that I have the answer, Ryan, to how do we right now. I think we have to go back to thinking inside the box, getting back to the basics. It takes a long time to turn a ship. It's small. It's baby steps. It's not just saying, "Hey, tomorrow we are going to be better risk managers for middle market." It really comes back to communicating the vision with the team, the purpose of "We are here for this reason. Everything we're going to do points back to this." So when we communicate with our team, "Hey, the reason we're going to start putting more of a focus on being a better risk manager for middle markets is because it helps us fulfill what we believe we're called to do here at ABC Insurance."
--:-- Communication is so key. I've never heard anybody say, "Will you stop communicating? I get it, stop. I got the point." We've got to err on the side of over-communicating with our team. The more they hear it from us, and it's not just a one, two, three, four time thing. When we're speaking it every day, everything goes back to the purpose and the mission. At some point, it's going to click and they're going to see, "Whoa, this is our purpose. This is what we're about. Here's where our focus is." And then when they start seeing consistent results, that's what changes behavior.
--:-- Now, there are a hundred different ways to do that when we're bringing in CRMs and automation and proposals and websites. But the purpose is to do what you're called to do, whatever your mission is, whatever your purpose is. Everything has to point back to that in small, small baby steps. And I think the other side of it is, if it doesn't click, then they'll self-select out of the process. I think that's the scarier side.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: But why is that bad? That's not bad.
--:-- Brandon Smith: No, I will say it's one of those things that is definitely easier said than done. Especially a 10-person agency that has been together for a long time. And all of a sudden, John decides, "Man, I'm never going to text message. I'm never going to do it. It's not my thing. I got fat thumbs. I don't like it. I'm terrible at communicating that way." All these things. To me, that is the hardest part because as an outsider looking at the situation, you're going, "That's a good thing." What John is telling you is that while he may enjoy working here, he's not a good fit anymore. But John also is someone who's been loyal to you for 10 years and he's produced a lot. It becomes a very difficult situation.
--:-- But that's what's great about our industry. If that's how that agency in central Indiana wants to operate, more power to them. I think for a long time I fell prey to it, Ryan. You go to these conferences and you go to the vendor hall and it's just bright and shiny and new. You chase and you look like, "Oh, I need to plug this in and this and I'm going to grab this technology." Then we get back to the office and we get stuck in the routine and we plateau because we're not using anything to its full capability. And then we get frustrated because "Why doesn't Glidewell look like Rogue? I'm doing everything Ryan's doing." Because I'm not Ryan.
--:-- We have to embrace our scars, our mistakes, the quirkiness of our community, the quirkiness of our communication style. I think just being confident and owning who you are. If you're going to be an insurance agent and you're not going to text, you're going to get coffee, you're going to go to the barbershop and talk high school sports on Friday mornings, do it. But do it to your full capability. You're still going to be successful. That's what makes our industry so great: the freedom to operate our businesses the way we want. The only one responsible for our results is us.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That I agree with. I've thought a lot about this. The way that I want to do certain parts of our business is not the way that I think we can do all parts of our business. In big part, thanks to two buddies of mine, Matt and Emily and Chris Paradiso, who pound me over the head with EOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. I don't know if you're familiar with that book, *Traction*.
--:-- Brandon Smith: Say it again. What's it called?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: EOS. Entrepreneurial Operating System. It's based off of the book, or the book is based off of the system. *Traction* is the name of the book. Gino Wickman is the guy that wrote it. It's a really cool, straightforward way of figuring out what your priorities are in your business and attacking them and knowing who's working on what at all times. It doesn't take over your business. You don't need a piece of software. There is software you can buy. We don't use it. We just use a spreadsheet. So it can be very straightforward.
--:-- My point in saying that is one of the core concepts of EOS, and this is going to come back to the producer piece, is when it comes to people in positions, you can have "right person, right seat." So right person sitting in the right chair. You can have "right person, wrong seat." A great person you want on your team, but they're just not in the right position. Or you can have "wrong person, wrong seat." Just not the right person in a position that you don't really need. Those are the three scenarios.
--:-- I think about that a lot because we only have three people, but we're looking to hire fairly rapidly over the next six to 12 months. If you're hiring for character and you're hiring for someone who's going to buy into what you're doing and believes in what you're doing and is going to be loyal, I think we as leaders need to have the humility to say, "There's a good chance I'm going to bring this person in and they're going to be 'right person, wrong seat' the first time." They may come in as a personal lines producer and they just stink. But man, you throw them on middle market commercial and now they're a gangster killer because that just fits there. Or vice versa. You think they're going to be some big time commercial producer for you, and then you realize they're awesome on the phone with people, but that type of prospecting doesn't work. They're better with inbound, taking phone calls and closing deals.
--:-- If you have the right person, and I think this particularly goes for producers, because it's like, "This is how we sell here." We all say, "This is how we sell. We do this, we do that." Well, if you find the right person, why don't you figure out a process and a path for that person to sell at their maximum capacity? I always think about Bruce Lee because I love Bruce Lee. I read a lot about him. His whole concept of "be water." Water doesn't care what the shape of the cup is. It takes the shape of the cup. Be like water. I'm paraphrasing a little, but that's the basic concept.
--:-- When we think about producers, and I'm interested just from your expertise, how many people you think are doing this and if you think it's viable: if you get someone in who believes in you, who's going to care about your clients, if they hate texting, then find a way to make them successful without texting. If they hate using a CRM, they just absolutely hate it, but they can still produce and they're going to collect the information you need... obviously there are some guardrails, but then find a way for them to be successful. That's the mission of the agency principal or leadership to me. You can go the other way: "Hey, this is the way we do it. You either fit this box or you don't." You can go that way too. But I tend to be more of, if you're going to believe in us and be loyal to us and work hard for us and take care of our clients the way we want them to be taken care of, then let us massage our process to make you successful. Because every human is different.
--:-- Brandon Smith: I agree 100%. As you're saying that, I'm thinking through, we've got three or four people on our team that are in their third or fourth different role in our office for those reasons. They're amazing people, their character, their passion, their belief in what we do. And just over time, it's just funny, "Hey, this didn't work." But as I'm going through that, I realized I'm one of those, Ryan. Where I started in the industry was not... I got my start in servicing commercial. It was hell. It sucked. It was painful. And when I switched to producing in personal lines, it was just like, "This is where I'm supposed to be." I was still a part of the same vision, still a part of the same team, but it was "right person, wrong seat." I agree completely.
--:-- When you have those people, now there are those areas where, "Hey, this is how we do business. If you can't operate in that, we need to have a hard conversation." But that's the exception. That's the very last option, the last result. Because you find people that care. A trained monkey can sell insurance. But finding somebody of character that believes in the passion, that believes in your community and your purpose... you hold on to those people.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I agree with you, man. I think that principals, as quickly as possible, have to determine whether they're going to be producing principals or they're going to run their business. I don't want to say that I'm any kind of agency ownership rockstar. I've been doing this for less than two years and we're not profitable yet. So I don't want to put Rogue up on a pedestal. That being said, I've probably had conversations with 20 agency principals. You have to choose. When people seem to get hung up, it's because they can't decide whether they need to step out and train the next generation of producers—and I don't mean generation by age, I mean the next group that is going to come up and really drive the business and grow—or they're going to sit down in that stable and run with everybody. Those are two different things. You have to put someone who's going to make the decisions. Ron Swanson said it perfectly: "You can't half-ass two things. You can only whole-ass one thing."
--:-- That to me is a major reason why I think so many of these development programs, like the one that you've built, even if they do purchase it, it never gets engaged in. It never gets used. There are a lot of programs out there to help you. I think they all have a range of quality, but geez, if you just engage them, you would get some kind of benefit. So many people... I can see on the backend of the course, I see working with people that go through the course, less than 15% finish, go 100% of the way through. And the ones that have... their agencies, not necessarily because of what we've done, but they're the agencies that are winning. They're thriving because everything they do is intentional. There's purpose behind every decision they make.
--:-- So what is your program? What's the name of it? Where do they get information? I want to learn a little bit about your specific program and how they get involved if they're interested.
--:-- Brandon Smith: Long story short, we talked about a little bit at the beginning. Over the course of my career, I didn't see a program that was fun, engaging, practical application where you could just hit pause and implement right now. Through COVID, a lot of traveling and speaking got canceled. So I just started taking content and recording it and created an online course. ProducerDP.com, as in Producer Development.com. On the website, you can see everything that's included: building relationships, overcoming objections, how to put together a proposal. A lot of agency owners hire a producer and never teach them how to put together a proposal, how to deliver the proposal, how to follow up on the proposal, how to network, how to learn to ask the right questions that not just guarantee whether or not you'll get the sale, but help change the size of the sale. How do you use your CRM? Whatever platform you want to use. There are a lot of great ones out there. But how to use it, how to get the most out of it. You can see on the website all the different topics.
--:-- I created it for the individual. I wanted the price point to be affordable for the small mom and pop agency, for the 80% of agencies out there who can take the risk, take the gamble, on signing up for another course. It is very cost effective. There's so much in there that if you just take those tools and implement, you'll pay for the course 10 times over. But you've got to go through the course. You've got to be the one to decide, "Hey, I'm signing in. I'm going to do today's lesson."
--:-- This last year, as you know, I learned a lot through the course, the first year that it was out there, working with agents. I realized, Ryan, at the beginning of 2021, I asked myself, "Why am I in a hurry to become somebody I don't like?" I'm wanting to simplify my life, but I'm always in a rush. I'm always in a hurry. What I've found is those moments in life where I feel like I'm in a hurry... when I'm in traffic and it's like, "Ah, hurry, go." Anybody who drives slower than me is incompetent. And anyone who drives faster than me is just ridiculous. When I'm in the grocery store and there are people walking down in front of me and I'm like, "Ah, I got to get around them. I'm in a hurry." I'm looking at my watch when I'm grabbing my kids and saying, "Hurry, we got to get in the car. Get your shoes on."
--:-- What I realized is it was poor communication on my part, poor planning on my part, 30 steps ago. I should have communicated to the kids, "Hey, we're going to leave in 20 minutes. Make sure you get your coats and shoes. Get ready." When I'm running late in traffic, I either overextended my calendar or didn't properly plan for my calendar. At the end of the day, I could lay down and be like, "How many times did I hurry today?" Now there are moments when a kid runs out in the street in front of a car and you have to grab them and hurry. But I realized we are in a hurry continually and it's exhausting and it's never for good reasons.
--:-- I would guess a majority... some of us were born into the industry and have family agencies. But when I ask people, "Why did you enter the insurance industry?" we get one of two answers, and you can probably tell me what they are.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Lifestyle and earning capacity.
--:-- Brandon Smith: We hear that all the time. Yet we are busier than we've ever been. And we're still not satisfied with the results. Something's not right. There are agency owners out there working 40, 50 hours a week producing and running their agency. They leave the office, they go see their kids, they have dinner, they see their wife, everyone goes to bed. And then they go back to work to work on their drip marketing campaign, their CRM. They're really a software company that they're working on from 9 PM to 1 AM. And we're exhausted.
--:-- This last year, I was like, "We've got to find a way to achieve maximum results, manage our time better, because we are always in a hurry. We are always in a rush." Everybody you talk to, "Hey, how are you?" The answer is almost always "Good, busy." We don't know what being bored is anymore. We're so busy, digitally distracted. The speed at which we're living, I believe, is the greatest threat to our industry right now.
--:-- This year I took what we built with the program and really created a planner for 2022, a book to help people schedule out their week so that they are getting the most out of their time and able to earn the revenue they want to earn so that they can accomplish the two results, the two reasons we entered the industry. That's kind of part two of the program right now. That's my focus.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I love it. I couldn't agree with you more. So the planner, can you buy the planner separate from the program, or does the planner come with the program?
--:-- Brandon Smith: You can buy it separate. ProducerDP.com forward slash 2022 for the planner. I'm pumped. These things are shipping. They'll be in mailboxes November 15th. They started coming in. I've got about a 15 to 20 minute video course online of how to use the planner.
--:-- I've learned that I've created what I call the ideal schedule for a top-performing producer. I just took what I've done over the last 20 years, what our producers are doing. We're big fans of time blocking and task batching. Our quotes, when we're sending out proposals, when we're appointing, having our appointments — rather than just being all over the place chasing — when we check email. You could say it's almost legalistic, how we operate, how we construct our schedule.
--:-- I've got personal lines producers. I've got Steven Resset in our office. He is not working more than 35 hours a week. He's out of the office by two o'clock every Friday. And he is consistently generating 10 to $12,000 in new revenue in personal lines, just because of how we've structured his week. Now he's using a VA to help him quote, but every action he takes during the week is proactive revenue generating tasks because he's structured his time to get the results he wants and still allows him to have the lifestyle he dreamt of when he entered the industry.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Dude, I love this whole topic of hurrying and being busy. I think this is amazing. I highly encourage everyone to go to ProducerDP.com slash 2022. I know I will be going and getting one of these. I saw a post or an ad you were running for it, and I think that's why I reached out. I was like, "Dude, this thing is awesome. We need to talk."
--:-- I found myself the other day... I was interviewing Will Shaw from Better Agency. He said, "Hey man, what's going on?" And I was like, "Oh, you know, I'm busy, whatever." And then I always found myself adding this caveat of saying, "If I'm not busy, I'm getting in trouble, so I'm glad I'm busy." And I'm like, that's not true. You know what I do when I'm not busy? I hang out with my kids and play wiffle ball. That stuff is awesome. You know what I do when I'm busy? Not doing that.
--:-- Brandon Smith: Your wife can rock a wiffle ball.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Oh yeah, she's a gangster.
--:-- Brandon Smith: But think about it. Think about 20 years ago, when we talk about relaxing and life, what it looked like. Even advertisement commercials — it was a couple playing tennis together, sitting on the beach. And now all those same commercials for Rolex, Apple, whatever it may be — it's busy conference rooms, clubs, nightlife. If you're not busy, you must not be successful. If you're relaxing, you're lazy.
--:-- What I have found is that I achieve inner peace when my schedule, when my calendar, is aligned with my values. Life balance is not a 50/50 split. It's about being 100% present. How many times do we as parents have a conversation with our kids while doing this? [gestures to phone] Or our wife? Put the phone down. Because our busy, digitally distracted life is robbing us from the things that we say are most important.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I completely agree. What I like about the planner and the whole concept behind time blocking is that I feel like people have this concept — and I would put myself in this box — that by blocking and planning and being consistent, you're not being creative. There's no secret process. It's like, "Oh, I'm doing the same things every day." Well, yeah. You know how Derek Jeter became the best contact hitter in the league? He hit off a tee every single day of his life. He blocked a half hour in the morning every day to hit off a tee. That's how he became the best contact hitter in the league.
--:-- You look at the best salespeople, they're doing the same things. Look at Crothers and the stuff he talks about with the big middle market accounts. He's got two or three simple processes that you just do over and over again. This concept of being busy and being overwhelmed doesn't allow you to capitalize. Taking the family stuff out of the way — from a business perspective, if you are always busy and hurried, you're not able to take advantage of the serendipitous opportunities that are presented. You're like, "Oh, I got this other thing to do, so I can't take this last-second opportunity." If you had your time blocked and stuff was done and you had baked in free time, when an opportunity presents itself, whack, you can be on it. I feel like we miss a lot of those things.
--:-- Brandon Smith: Two misconceptions you alluded to there. One, you want to be creative? Schedule time during your week for creative thinking. In my calendar, social media can suck you in, trap you. I found myself last night on Instagram reels scrolling for way too long. In my calendar, I have two times during the week — Tuesday afternoons and Friday mornings — where I have an hour blocked out to scroll social media. That's where I engage in different groups, insurance groups, see what people are doing, comment and like. It's intentional. I'm doing it now so it doesn't take away from life later.
--:-- Just because your schedule looks this way this week doesn't mean it's going to in three weeks. What matters most to you is determined by the season you're in, and seasons come and go. You can't just say, "Here's what we're doing in January and this is what my schedule is going to look like in December." I've never achieved my ideal week. You have to leave room for margin. You have to leave room for those conversations, the serendipity. You can't be so anal as to say, "No, I can't talk to you right now because this is the time I'm doing my quotes." You have to leave room for life.
--:-- When you have your schedule blocked out — the purpose of my planner is not to list your doctor's appointment or who you're going to lunch with. The purpose is the blocks. You have Outlook, you have iCalendar to handle the day-to-day. You have your task manager, your CRM. This is the block so you can focus and know, "Hey, right now, my goal is just to get through my email." Because I know if I clean up my email, it relieves a lot of stress and pressure on me later in the week.
--:-- I try to be very disciplined. Thursdays are the only day I have meetings. That's meetings with family, friends, employees, clients. I block out Thursdays. Some Thursdays it's nonstop from 7:30 AM to 6:30 PM. You get to seven o'clock and you feel like you accomplished nothing today. Nothing got done. All I did was talk and sit and have coffee and meet with people all day. But guess what? There's no pressure to meet with people for the next six days. Now I get to go implement everything that came out of those meetings without the added pressure of "you got to hurry, you got a deadline." No, because I don't have meetings all week interrupting what has to be done.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Being intentional. That's a good word.
--:-- Brandon Smith: Intentional. Everything we do is intentional. From the very beginning of this conversation — COVID, politics, parenting, family, insurance, schedule, training, hiring — it can be summarized with living intentional. Putting purpose to everything you do. As you can tell, I'm passionate about that. That's how I want to help our industry. I want to motivate, encourage, and challenge producers, agents, salesmen and women to be the best version of themselves. The only way you can achieve that inner peace is when your time — the most valuable asset you have — aligns with what matters most to you.
--:-- ProducerDP.com. That's ProducerDP.com. Guys, go check it out. I highly recommend the planner. I'm going to get the planner, the course obviously as well. Just follow Brandon on the socials, dude.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: This has been a tremendous conversation. I'm so glad we finally had a chance to do this on the podcast. I think you're doing great work. Hopefully a lot of people will go check out what you're doing and at least get in your ecosystem. When they're ready, they'll take a deeper dive. ProducerDP.com. What's the social? Where do you want them to connect with you?
--:-- Brandon Smith: At Brandon Smith — it's the most common name, so the S is the number 5. @Brandon5mith.
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