--:-- [Upbeat music fades out, and the hosts introduce themselves]
--:-- John Bickley: Welcome to Morning Wire, I'm John Bickley, Editor-in-Chief of Daily Wire.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And I'm Georgia Howe, co-host of Morning Wire. It's Thursday, November 23rd, Happy Thanksgiving.
--:-- John Bickley: Today, we're joined by a special guest to share the true story of the first Thanksgiving. Richard Pickering is the Deputy Director and Senior Historian at Plymouth Plantation in Plymouth, Massachusetts.
--:-- Georgia Howe: Richard, thanks so much for coming on.
--:-- Richard Pickering: My pleasure.
--:-- Georgia Howe: So, what historical events specifically are we commemorating when we celebrate Thanksgiving?
--:-- Richard Pickering: Traditionally, our national holiday has been associated with the harvest feast at Plymouth Colony in the fall of 1621. There is a specific feast that happened somewhere in the last week of September, first week of October, 1621.
--:-- John Bickley: And what was that feast about?
--:-- Richard Pickering: It was a way of the pilgrims celebrating that their first harvest was a good one. The corn that they had learned to plant from the Wampanoag people did very well. And they were so excited at facing the winter with good stores knowing that they would be fed.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And Governor Bradford declared what he called a special manner of rejoicing. So they set aside time for feasting, for sports, for the men who had been working in the fields to exercise their arms, meaning practicing as soldiers to make certain that they could defend themselves.
--:-- Richard Pickering: And in the course of the three days that they were sporting and feasting, the great sachem of the Poconocket people arrives in Plymouth with 90 men. And we're told from the one eyewitness account that the sachem is there with his men.
--:-- John Bickley: And what happened when those men arrived?
--:-- Richard Pickering: They joined the feasting. They were together for three days. At one point, Sachem Massasoit sends his men out hunting, and they return to Plymouth with five bucks of venison. And the Sachem presents a buck to the most significant men within the colony.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And for me, that's an incredibly interesting gift because English people looked at venison as a meat of the rich. It's the kind of thing you would have wanted for your child's baptismal feast for a wedding feast.
--:-- Richard Pickering: But most Englishmen rarely had venison because this was the meat of gentlefolk who had deer parks. So here are the Poconocket presenting them with venison, and the Poconocket couldn't have understood the meaning of their gift in English eyes.
--:-- John Bickley: Now, for people who aren't familiar, can you introduce who Massasoit is?
--:-- Richard Pickering: Massasoit was the sachem of the Poccanocket people, and his territories are a large area between what is now the Rhode Island-Massachusetts border and the south coast of Massachusetts.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what was the nature of the Pilgrim's relationship with the locals just from the get-go and through those first few years?
--:-- Richard Pickering: Early on, it's representative of the highest levels of diplomacy. So in the early years, the diplomacy between those at Plymouth and the Poconocket and other Wampanoag communities is excellent because not in a naive kind of friendship way, but a realpolitik kind of way, they are beneficial to one another.
--:-- John Bickley: Just to get the timeline right, my understanding is that the pilgrims arrived in the fall. They had a brutal winter. So if they're celebrating a good harvest, then that would have had to have been the following fall.
--:-- Richard Pickering: This would have been, yes, almost a year to the day of Mayflower arriving. Mayflower spots Cape Cod on November 9th, 1620. So they sign the Mayflower Compact on November 11th, and then they come to shore for the first time.
--:-- Georgia Howe: Now, tell us a little bit about that first year and the hardships that the Pilgrims faced. What was that like?
--:-- Richard Pickering: To us, I think it's unimaginable that 102 arrive as passengers in November 1620, and by the end of February, there are only 52 left alive. Plymouth was deeply devoted to writing and keeping record. And we have a description that particularly in the month of February, there were sometimes two and three deaths a day.
--:-- John Bickley: And what happened to the women during that first winter?
--:-- Richard Pickering: There are only four intact households at the end of the first winter. And to me, one of the heartbreaking things is there are some young women, 13, 14 years old, who are watching every member of their family die the first winter.
--:-- Georgia Howe: Why is it that these young people survived, but primarily the adult women didn't?
--:-- Richard Pickering: No, what Bradford thought was that the exposure, because they have no homes to go to, they're living on Mayflower in the harbor, coming in to build their houses and then going back to the ship at night. So the degree of dampness and exposure, he felt that's where the illnesses were coming from.
--:-- John Bickley: Now, at what point during that first year did the Wampanoag take the pilgrims under their wing, or were they on their own that first winter?
--:-- Richard Pickering: Because of the drama of the first winter, there has grown up this perception that Native people got them through the first winter, when in truth, what they did for them was not harm them. The English were living from the stores that they had brought aboard Mayflower.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And when did the disputes over land and disputes over resources really begin in earnest?
--:-- Richard Pickering: There are skirmishes across time, but not large ones. For the most part, between the Poconocket and the English, up until the horror of King Philip's war, there is peace.
--:-- John Bickley: What led to the breakdown of peace?
--:-- Richard Pickering: What you find is that the first generation of men like Miles Standish, William Bradford, William Brewster, they are all very concerned that young people want more land than they need. And so the first generation of leaders is trying to keep people together as much as possible so that communities and churches will be protected and encouraged.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what about the social dynamic between the various tribes like prior to the arrival of the pilgrims in New England?
--:-- Richard Pickering: The English arrive at a moment when everything is chaotic because in 1616 so four years prior to Mayflower arrival a European epidemic had started somewhere around what is currently Portland Maine And within months it had spread all along the New England coast to what is now the contemporary border between Massachusetts and the state of Rhode Island
--:-- John Bickley: Now, I'd like to clarify something. You mentioned that Mayflower did not carry any infection. Was that an issue for natives encountering the pilgrims?
--:-- Richard Pickering: Mayflower did not carry any infection. It was all prior to their arrival in what had been brought unintentionally by English fur traders and fishermen.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And when did the disputes over land and disputes over resources really begin in earnest?
--:-- Richard Pickering: There are skirmishes across time, but not large ones. For the most part, between the Poconocket and the English, up until the horror of King Philip's war, there is peace.
--:-- John Bickley: What led to the breakdown of peace?
--:-- Richard Pickering: What you find is that the first generation of men like Miles Standish, William Bradford, William Brewster, they are all very concerned that young people want more land than they need. And so the first generation of leaders is trying to keep people together as much as possible so that communities and churches will be protected and encouraged.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what about the social dynamic between the various tribes like prior to the arrival of the pilgrims in New England?
--:-- Richard Pickering: The English arrive at a moment when everything is chaotic because in 1616 so four years prior to Mayflower arrival a European epidemic had started somewhere around what is currently Portland Maine And within months it had spread all along the New England coast to what is now the contemporary border between Massachusetts and the state of Rhode Island
--:-- John Bickley: Now, I'd like to clarify something. You mentioned that Mayflower did not carry any infection. Was that an issue for natives encountering the pilgrims?
--:-- Richard Pickering: Mayflower did not carry any infection. It was all prior to their arrival in what had been brought unintentionally by English fur traders and fishermen.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what were those first interactions between pilgrims and natives like?
--:-- Richard Pickering: In March of 1621, when Massasoit comes to Plymouth for the first time. The English have been in New England for five months before they have any conversation with Wampanoag Poconocket people. Massasoit appears on the other side of the brook near Plymouth with 60 men.
--:-- John Bickley: And how were they able to communicate?
--:-- Richard Pickering: Massasoit had to rely on translators. Dutch, English, French traders and fishermen had been coming to New England for 100 years prior to Mayflower. They just didn't stay. They were there in the spring, drying their fish, getting their furs, and then going back to England and Europe by the month of August.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what about Squanto? He's the translator who is most known to most Americans.
--:-- Richard Pickering: And the reason that he could speak English, he was stolen in 1614. Captain John Smith brought a small flotilla of three ships to New England to map the New England coast. He charted it. He returned to England, leaving the two junior officers with their ships in New England.
--:-- John Bickley: And what about the myths about Thanksgiving that you'd like to settle the record on?
--:-- Richard Pickering: Well, I think right now, just where we are culturally as a nation, we're so uncivil and distrustful of each other that in many ways we're enacting the very thing that's so worried, non-apashamed, about our understanding of that 1621 harvest feast, where there is in some circles this sense of the English invited Wampanoag people to harm them.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And is that true?
--:-- Richard Pickering: And this is utterly false because they were not the stronger of the parties here. They were the weaker of the parties. At any moment, had it been in Massasoit's interest or those of his particular allies to drive these strangers off their land, they would have done it.
--:-- John Bickley: Richard, this has been really interesting. Thank you so much for coming on.
--:-- Richard Pickering: My pleasure. Thank you so much and happy Thanksgiving.
--:-- Georgia Howe: That was Richard Pickering, deputy director and senior historian at Plymouth Plantation. And this has been a special Thanksgiving episode of Morning Wire.
--:-- John Bickley: And because I know my dad is probably sitting on the edge of his seat during this interview, I want to note that I am a proud descendant of Mayflower travelers Priscilla Mullins and John Alden.
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--:-- Georgia Howe: And while this is the best deal of the year, it won't be the longest. So head over to dailywire.com slash subscribe. That's dailywire.com slash subscribe today.
