Apple's Vision Pro, Chris Licht Outlook, and Friend of Pivot Ben Terris

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway: And I'm Scott Galloway. I hear it's sunny in London.

Kara Swisher: It is beautiful here. I mean, it is spectacular. The flowers are blooming. I have the most beautiful, I don't know if it's a cherry tree in my backyard. And I went to the FA Cup final, Man City versus Man United. Wembley is now my second favorite venue in the world after, I think it's called the Lusalle Stadium in Qatar. I've just had the most fantastic weekend.

Scott Galloway: Oh, nice.

Kara Swisher: We went to the fourth biggest mall in the UK, the O2 Mall. My son is determined to go to the 10 biggest malls in the United Kingdom.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, well, also Mall of America he's got to go to in the United States.

Kara Swisher: Don't even say those words around my child. I was there when it opened. Mall of America. He's decided like malls are the seven wonders of the world.

Scott Galloway: Well, they used to be. They used to be. It's nice to visit them. That's a nice habit, sort of weird.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, nice. I should reach out to David Simon and tell him my son has a fetish for malls.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, yeah. Say fetish. Say the word fetish.

Kara Swisher: Well, I had a beautiful week. I was in San Francisco visiting autonomous car companies and rode around in an autonomous car quite a bit. The Waymo visited the truck autonomous car. And I got to tell you, the Waymo was amazing. It was an amazing experience.

Scott Galloway: That's the Google company?

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Yeah, it really works incredibly well. And I drove all around without a driver in San Francisco, uphills, downhills, going decent speeds and really well done, I have to say, so far. There's some issues around it being too cautious, I think, or blocking intersections and things like that. But actually, compared to what I rode 10 years ago, which I've been riding these for that long, amazing progress.

Scott Galloway: We said this on the last spot. It just feels like the place that autonomous driving would start would be with trucking late at night when the highways aren't being utilized. I also thought, and it probably won't happen for a long time, that the place it should go is in aviation because the vast majority of air crashes are pilot error.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, that's true. But people just can't handle the idea of a computer up in front. I was in this thing. It's like an Uber. You call it. It unlocks with your app, and then you get in. And this was a car. This was not – I mean, I visited – I did two interviews. One was a truck one. One was a car one. Chris Urmson, who started Google, what is essentially now Waymo, is doing the truck one. Then they're going to also then apply it to cars, and Google is doing stuff on cars, which is going to then apply to trucks eventually. Anyway, I have to say I was – I'm just amazed. You know, the reason why I wanted to do this is because Tesla sucks up all the oxygen and they're pretending they have robo-taxis, which they don't. These are robo-taxis. And I just wanted to put a focus on where others are.

Scott Galloway: And there it is, four minutes before our first insult of Elon.

Kara Swisher: No, I know. You know what I mean? I was like, I wanted to show there's all kinds of interesting things going on.

Scott Galloway: You're just giving equal opportunity to the other autonomous folks. I think that's good of you.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, and I was impressed. I have to say I was super impressed and hung out with Louis Swisher, which was even better. Are you back in D.C.?

Scott Galloway: Yes, I went out to St. Michael's, Maryland this weekend for a big lesbian fest with our friends who have a house.

Kara Swisher: Really?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, it was nice. In a pool. A pool full of children. A pool full of children of lesbians.

Kara Swisher: Where did all the gay guys go? P-Town?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, we go to P-Town, too. Is there like a lot of good DJs and a lot of sax?

Kara Swisher: No, it was a bunch of lesbians with small children. We had a wagon full of children of lesbians wandering through St. Michael's. I'm not sure they knew what was happening to them, but it was fantastic.

Scott Galloway: Is that, that's an annual agora for lesbians?

Kara Swisher: No, but we're going to have a big lesbian party. I'm thinking of inviting you at the end of summer there. I'm not exaggerating. People come up to me and just assume they're going to bond with me. They come up and like, I listen to you and Kara, and they look at me like, I'm a lesbian. They say that like, because I'm friendly with you, it means I must have this natural affinity and play well with lesbians.

Scott Galloway: See, a whole new class of friends.

Kara Swisher: Well, I may invite you, but then they may drown you as a ritual drowning in the Chesapeake Bay.

Scott Galloway: The lesbians love the dog. Come on.

Kara Swisher: They raise their eyebrows is what I get a lot of. I get a lot of like, OK, if you insist, Kara, that's fine. Anyway, they do. They do. They just love you. I can't even tell you how much they talked about you completely the whole time. Anyway, I'm going to move on because we've got a lot to talk about. Today, we'll talk about a punishing inside look at CNN and its boss, Chris Licht. Also, social media networks are gearing up for 2024 with some troubling new policies. And we'll speak with friend of Pivot, Ben Terris, about his new book on behind the scenes Beltway Characters, There's Always Someone. But first, the Directors Guild has tentatively reached a deal with Hollywood producers. The three-year agreement includes wage increases, new safety guidelines, and a ban on live ammunition on set. The DGA has been in negotiations since May 10th, pretty quick, and voted on a pretty complex deal today. I think they didn't get everything they wanted, but apparently they got quite a few things. The Writers Guild has been on strike for almost a month, SAG, after the Screen Actors Guild will begin negotiations for a new contract on Wednesday and could go out too. So, you know, here we are.

Scott Galloway: Here we are. Yeah, I find it sort of, I mean, my observation is that the media is obsessed with itself. There are 80,000 Uber drivers and get this just in New York City. And then I think there's 20 or 22,000 in the Directors Guild and 11,000 in the Writers Guild. They will claim victory. I mean, their wage increases, if you look at inflation. Isn't, they aren't keeping up, right?

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: Aren't even keeping up with inflation. The notion, the agreement, I'd like to get the language, but the agreement that AI is not a person, generative AI cannot replace the duties performed by members. I don't know what that means or how you enforce it. And also, my favorite is that it bans live ammunition on set.

Kara Swisher: Well, no shit.

Scott Galloway: That's a win. Isn't that just sort of like an IQ test?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, a lot of people. I was reading Matt Belloni today, and he was like, this was not such a big deal. My guess is everyone was down with that. That wasn't exactly a give on anyone's part. No, we want live ammunition on the set. It feels like the win for the Directors Guild was they got what I understand is a substantial increase in residuals from foreign deals. I don't know what that amounts to. I don't know how big a component of residuals foreign residuals are, but that felt real. Everything else felt like the union representing them trying to claim victory.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. One of the things that Matt Belloni wrote, so why the compromise? The reality is that most powerful DGA members don't work at scale. So this issue affects mostly fledgling TV directors and below the line members, such as an assistant directors. So it'll be different because a lot of SAG-AFTRA people do work at scale and the same thing with writers. So these are fancier people.

Kara Swisher: I was at a party where there were SAG people and writer people were like, oh, the directors will totally throw us under. They didn't even expect them to do anything. And yet didn't keep up with inflation. And the AI stuff was toothless as far as I could see. Anyway, we'll see. Again, what's your prediction on the writer's strike? Even though it gets a lot of attention, but it does.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, look, I got, wow, there's a few things where it's sort of like, it reminds me of when I challenged or said that tenure was an outdated construct and that tenure was Latin for student debt. And so many of, I don't want to call them my colleagues, but so many tenured professors from universities around the world weighed in on the topic and kind of came after me. And what I generally said, and I think it's true of the writers who have come out and provided some very colorful descriptions of my work, that your fondness for tenure or the writers union is inversely correlated to your currency in the marketplace.

Kara Swisher: Oh, dear.

Scott Galloway: And the people who are really fond of tenure.

Kara Swisher: Oh, don't text me anybody, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway: The people who are really fond of tenure are typically professors who haven't pulled their weight in over a decade. And so what do you know? They love tenure. And writers. Let's go for a writer one now.

Kara Swisher: Okay, so we just slapped the professors. Now writers, please.

Scott Galloway: Bottom line, directors have more currency in the marketplace. There's fewer of them, and they're more central to the production. So they were just more apt to sign an agreement because the vast majority of them don't need the minimum standards. What about the Screen Actors Guild? Now that's a different thing. There's so many actors. I don't know. I don't understand the dynamics there. I don't. And I realize I'm hopping around here, but I did have a clip go semi viral on CNN's Mercantile this weekend where I said, don't follow your passion. That's just the stupidest fucking advice. And people who tell you to follow your passion are already rich. And they played all these clips of actors. The unemployment rate for actors, over 90 percent. The number one identified aspirational career for young people is influencer. Do you know what percentage of people who say they're full-time vloggers on YouTube make more than $13,000 a year? You know what percent? 3%.

Kara Swisher: 3%.

Scott Galloway: Oh, that's pretty good. Okay, but a working wage, over $50,000, less than half a percent. Right. So just be careful, kids. Passion is Latin for there's no money here. And what I would say is have a passion for taking care of your children. Have a passion for living well. Have a passion for giving money away. Have a passion for taking care of your parents. And that if you find something you're good at and something that people will pay you for, and then you become great at it and people will pay you a lot for it, guess what? You find that tenure and union aren't as important to you.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, you've been saying a lot of controversial things that work at home. I'm not going to let you go on about that because I'm moving on.

Scott Galloway: Okay, go ahead.

Kara Swisher: But I'm just saying, you've been saying that.

Scott Galloway: They're lesbians like me.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, okay, sure. Prime members may soon have a new offering, Prime Wireless. According to Bloomberg, Amazon is in talks with carriers about offering low-cost mobile plans with Prime. Shares of Verizon and T-Mobile fell on the news, while shares of Dish are up 11 percent based on speculation of a potential deal with Amazon. I don't know. Would you take – I would probably buy wireless from Amazon. Would you?

Scott Galloway: So Amazon – I think Amazon, other than Airbnb, is my largest holding. Amazon needs to get back in form and start getting back to its disruptive gangster.

Kara Swisher: Oh, I see. You like it.

Scott Galloway: I love what Jeff Bezos said. Your margin is my opportunity. For some reason, somehow, like we read these, we do these commercials like Mint Mobile, 10 bucks a month. Do you know what my AT&T phone bill is every month for my, for, from AT&T? It's a zillion. It's between $800 and $1,200 a month.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's high.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. And I go through it. I don't understand it. And occasionally I think I really got to do something about it, but I'm lazy and my company or, you know, my, my business pays for it. So I never really do the work. But it just strikes me there's a lot of potential for disruption in there.

Kara Swisher: Agreed. And Amazon has, it has your credit card. It has a reputation for amazing technology. It has a reputation for incredible consumer value.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, and response.

Kara Swisher: But, you know, it's a lot of customer service. There's antitrust issues here, or regulators maybe. I don't know. Probably not. There's so many competitors.

Scott Galloway: Oh, I'd love for them to come into this.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah. But the thing is, have you moved over to their pharmacy?

Scott Galloway: I haven't, interestingly enough. I still use my Cigna one. And it's-

Kara Swisher: I go to fancy doctors. I'm just saying, I wonder how that business is doing. That's an interesting one. But look, your phone bill, having, Amazon needs to do something. Amazon has, it feels like surprisingly flat-footed and boring. And then if you look at, and then they have the power.

Scott Galloway: What's really interesting here is the biggest players, T-Mobile, AT&T, Verizon, begrudgingly have to play here and bid on it. T-Mobile's down 10%. Over the last two years, Verizon 40. Dish is down 82%. That's because they keep buying stupid things. But they're basically selling an undifferentiated service but charging a ton of money. Just as healthcare in the United States keeps increasing prices with no underlying innovation, which makes your chin bigger and bigger waiting for a fist of stone, telco, my telephone bill, feels like a huge chin waiting for a fist of stone.

Kara Swisher: Yes, agreed, agreed. I would buy it from them. We'll see. We'll see. It's interesting. They should get in this. It's something people might trust them with. And then you buy a phone and then you buy this from them. And they can link it to your speakers in your house and on Alexa. I like this a lot.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, they could do it. That's an area they could get into.

Kara Swisher: Speaking of areas that you are negative about, Apple unveiled its mixed reality headset at its WWDC event on Monday. Tim Cook devoted about 40 minutes to the new device in a surprise twist. It's called Vision Pro, not the Reality Pro that we expected. The headset will launch early next year at a price of $3,500. Tim Cook also brought out Disney CEO Bob Iger to talk about his company's plans for the device. He said that Disney Plus would be available on day one. Apple stock hit an all-time high Monday but fell after Vision Pro's unveiling. And for those who aren't visually in tune with Scott Galloway, he's wearing ski goggles right now, and he looks fantastic. Scott, I see that you're dubious. We've had a back and forth. I believe that this will be the company to make VR and AR more acceptable to the broad masses of people. I've only been right all the time about their various and sundry things. But go ahead. Tell me what you're doing now that you're sitting there looking like you're in Ready Player One.

Scott Galloway: Well, I got an advanced copy of a new app called the Prof. ED Goggles. It takes you to a place, a home in London, where a 50-year-old man with ED and midlife crisis just pays $35 million to get a product that makes no fucking sense, Kara.

Kara Swisher: Okay. All right. Why? Explain to me why. Because you sound like the people who were against AirPods, the watch, the phone was expensive at the time. I mean, give me your why this one, since they've been so good on products. They really have. They've had very few losers. What problem does this solve?

Scott Galloway: Well, I think if you watch entertainment, I think if you do things, you know, I think VR and AR are coming. Some sort of heads-up display, us staring and looking at our phones seems ridiculous. And they're calling it the next phase of computing, essentially.

Kara Swisher: Spatial computing.

Scott Galloway: Spatial computing. That's the word they used.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. Look, I'm kind of with you. You never want to count Apple out. And Apple has the, I mean, any company that had launched the watch, it would have been a failure. There were, I thought the Nike fuel band right out of the gates was probably better than the Apple watch, but they don't have the deep pockets, the brand and the staying power of an Apple to sort of, they can put so much wood behind an arrow for so long that they can iterate and morph. But this to me feels a little bit like the Hermes watch. It'll be cool. A lot of press, but I'm having trouble figuring out, I can't get past a few things. One, I have a bias. I'm worried that a technology is sequestering us more and more from each other. And that's a larger issue here, but it's something that's very concerning to me. But also just anthropologically, the things we could kill and eat and the things that could kill and eat us came from our peripheral vision. So as a result, we really don't like our vision impaired unless we're in a very safe environment.

Kara Swisher: Well, this isn't totally impaired. It's a little different than VR. You can see the room with it. But go ahead. I'm trying it out next week. They're shocking.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I don't know. But I stick to the only thing you'll put on your face, whether it's, you know, Mac Cosmetics or a pair of Warby Parkers are things that correct your vision, which is a threat to your safety and to your security and you can't read, or increase the likelihood that you'll find a mate to make you feel more attractive. And I don't think this does either. It seems to me the smart thing they did was, and it was different than what I anticipated, it is more enterprise, B2B. So I can see when I go into my dentist's office, they give me these weird goggles to watch Money Heist. And this will probably get pickup at very high-end services place where they put on goggles.

Kara Swisher: I wondered if it was maybe a Zoom killer that makes it you feel more in the room with people.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, you can see people and they take a version of you and they follow you around and you can actually see the room.

Kara Swisher: So I would think meetings would come alive. I mean, the staring at the computer screen needs to be fixed, the idea of staring at a computer screen. And there should be more visual ways to do that. And if putting on a pair of very, you know, compared to all the others is the most attractive version of this, but these are hard to design correctly. I think meetings, I could see it. I could see watching certain, you know, you could put this, you're right, an isolated kid, put them watching Frozen and it being surround sound, which was one of the original uses when I first started trying these out at Sony and at Samsung many years ago.

Scott Galloway: Yeah but if you think about the way you watch Frozen for example unless it a sole purpose viewing experience which it is sometimes you want to have your peripheral vision You want to be able to look at other people. And the thing I didn't buy from the nine minute video I watched is the notion that the transparency is such you can see other people's eyes makes it seamless and comfortably around other people. I don't think you're going to talk to or interact with people with this thing on unless you're in that environment. I just don't buy that. The other thing I just can't get past here is the price point. And that is when you get to $3,500 and you talk about sales tax and everything, you're talking about a $4,000 ticket. And $4,000, it's like, and for something that feels to me that technology is so sophisticated here that every six or 12 months it could be upgraded.

Kara Swisher: That's for sure. I think this is just, you know, Casey Neistat, I think says, I mean, look, a lot of the earlier adopters will use it and then they'll work on it, work on it, work on it. And it'll be, it'll get down to a price. But some of the funny Twitter ones for $3,500, I better be able to shoot laser beams like Cyclops or some shit.

Scott Galloway: For $3,500, I better be able to fight the people I'm talking to on Twitter. For anyone looking to reenact Notting Hill, you can now with a brand new Apple Vision Pro.

Kara Swisher: I mean, it's been good for jokes, but I do think, I would say, I think KGI said, this is for an elite group of people, and then we'll see, right? And then I just feel like someone's got to get this right the way the watch was, the way the AirPods were, the iPhone itself. I think people were worried about the price. So I just feel like ultimately it will go mass market, but at the beginning it will be the enthusiasts. And I think they'll probably sell enough to make it worth their while initially, although the cost has been enormous putting money into this. But they put this, they greenlit this before they knew that the Oculus with $15 or $20 billion in R&D behind it and a price point of $500 was going to be such a big flop. And so you're coming in with a competitive product that's seven times the price of a product that isn't working?

Scott Galloway: Well, I wouldn't compare it to the Oculus. I think this is aimed at a very different group of people.

Kara Swisher: But I just want to tell you, you look incredibly attractive to me with that outfit on. Hello, ladies.

Scott Galloway: That's right. Come on over. Right now, literally, Scott is wearing headphones and a pair of very attractive ski goggles. That's the good news about getting older. Yeah. When you're younger, when you're in your 30s and your 40s, you're kind of holding on to some semblance that you might still be attractive. Yeah. And then you just start embracing the ugly.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Well, you're doing a good job embracing the ugly. It's working. You're in full body hug. But I do think these will be smaller and more attractive. But I like the step in the direction. I do. I'm going to be. I will let you know, since Apple invited me to come see it next week in New York. I will let you know how it is.

Scott Galloway: I was just thinking an Apple car, an Apple microwave, almost any device with an Apple logo on it, I would trial. I'll try this just out of curiosity. But I don't even I was thinking your entertainment experience. I don't want to say my entertainment experience is maxed out, but between my, whatever you call it, wallpaper TV that's thinner than a pencil, I don't want it any bigger. I've got a great Bose soundbar. I'm just sort of like, do I really want to put on a headset? Maybe in bed if you don't want to bother your partner or maybe B2B?

Kara Swisher: I was on the train. I was wearing the big Apple headset today, watching on my phone, which I would have liked to have been right in front of my face. I mean, if I could see the passengers at the same time, sure, I would have done it. I think there's something weird about, I think our body feels uncomfortable when our peripheral vision, I think we're more prone to motion sickness. I don't know. I just don't. And at this price point.

Scott Galloway: Well, I appreciate it. We got to go to the next thing. But I appreciated your vasectomy jokes. And I hope they'll be.

Kara Swisher: That's right.

Scott Galloway: So did Apple.

Kara Swisher: Oh, did they?

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Did they retweet it or something?

Scott Galloway: No, I don't think so. Am I on some list where I'm about to get it?

Kara Swisher: I think we have different thoughts on this. I think it's the right direction. You think it's never going to be sold, but we'll see. I think this is coming in some format.

Scott Galloway: But think about where Apple's been most successful. Apple takes an existing idea. They take the pioneer who got, you know, mud on their face and arrows in the back, and they iterate. They're never the first. This isn't – is this iterating? This feels like –

Kara Swisher: Yes, it's on the Oculus. It's on a lot of stuff. I think it is. I think it's an obsession of Tim Cook's too. I think his obsession is doing anything that Zuckerberg does. I think Apple and Microsoft put a chip on the table for optionality such that if the Oculus took off, they wouldn't be too far behind and they could crush, either participate in Meta's success or crush them respectively for Microsoft and Apple's interest. And the Oculus and the metaverse has not panned out. I don't think they would greenlight this today. I don't know. We'll see. I'll let you know when I try it on.

Scott Galloway: Well, we'll talk more about it at the end of the week to see how Apple is faring and the reviews are in as real reviewers. Stock hit an all-time high today. And then it dropped after this. The money's already spent.

Kara Swisher: We'll see how it goes. And I'm excited to try it. And it kind of doesn't matter. I mean, it'll get a lot of press, but this is a drop in the bucket. I mean, you could argue it's a diversion of focus, but it's not, they haven't spent a lot of money. It's not like Meta where the CEO went into the street and burned $20 billion.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, that's true.

Kara Swisher: All right, we'll see. Anyway, enjoy yourself with your outfit on tonight and we'll move on from there. Anyway, let's get to our first big story. New tea deals on the turmoil inside CNN, a 15,000 word Atlantic profile. It was a beautifully written piece by Tim Alberta. It was very fair of CNN's CEO. Chris Licht portrays him as isolated, stressed, at odds with his employees, prone to quoting, saying things stupid in quotes. It's the latest black eye for Licht following a year of low ratings, talent issues, and fervor around the Trump town hall. The profile depicts Licht as a little paranoid. He may have reason to worry. And this week, CNN announced David Levy to join the company as chief operating officer. He's a close confidant of David Zaslav. I know David. It's not a good sign for Chris for this to happen. They were calling him bringing in the pain sponge, making the reference to Succession and Tom Wambsgans. This was something, this was some piece. And then today he got up in front of people and apologized and was properly humble, I think, saying he became the center of the action and he should not have been doing so many chit-chats. And he did one with me as focused on results and their world, which he's been doing, apparently spends a lot of time. I think the most, there were so many devastating quotes in this thing. One was with his trainer where he was, I think he was trying to make a joke. He's a super awkward guy, lifting something and said, "I bet Jeff Zucker couldn't do this," which was his predecessor. Probably shouldn't have mentioned Jeff Zucker's name ever. What do you think? Profits are down. That's the most important issue. 750 million down from a billion during the Zucker days. Ratings down considerably. The Nikki Haley one didn't make much news, although I thought Jake Tapper did a pretty good job at it. Trump town hall didn't move the needle, only brought in 3 million viewers? I don't know. What do you think?

Scott Galloway: Well, so market dynamics will always trump individual performance. And if you look at cable news right now, whether it's Fox, whether it's CNN, there's no profiles on how great people are because everything sucks. I mean, yeah, across the board.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: OK. CNN's viewership dropped 60 percent in March alone. So that's down, I think, 25 percent year on year. Primetime, they're only getting 473,000 viewers. And so there's just no getting about it. They're the slowest tortoise. You know, everyone's doing terribly here. You know, just the context and the atmospherics here are such that it makes for really easy hit pieces.

Kara Swisher: And I don't think this was a hit piece. This was not a hit piece. I don't think this was a hit piece, but it definitely really tore them apart. And I've spent a little bit of time with Jeff Zucker. I think he's incredibly impressive. I think that—

Scott Galloway: I'd agree. I would argue Jeff Zucker right now is probably the most reliable media executive who can create hundreds of millions in EBITDA in a difficult environment that isn't working for a media company right now.

Kara Swisher: I know. It is kind of amazing. But having said that, I've spoken with Chris, and he's the guy. He didn't fire me directly, but technically, I don't even know if it was his decision. But, you know, when my programmer, CNN Plus, got unplugged. But I found Chris to be a thoughtful, you know, decent guy. He explained to me a strategy and a strategy made sense to me. But what I worry about is that I just hope and I've always thought there's I've always saying there's opportunity in the middle. And whatever that opportunity is, CNN is not is not seeing it. Either they're not executing against it or it's just not working.

Scott Galloway: Well, it's a bad business and he's got a bad morale and he's been at the center of it. He said off the cuff things. I agree. I think he can be very thoughtful, although several times relatively recently, he's done things that I'm like, can you stop talking? He needs to stop talking, you know, when he did the Don Lemon firing. And I think he I think media reporters have decided, you know, to feast on this guy. And by the way, he kind of deserves it. So it's not even like it's I feel particularly bad for this. You know, he's a big boy to embed a reporter of such quality in that organization for a year. I don't even know why he thought that was a good idea. I just don't know. There was no upside to that. And he talks too much about himself and his ideas versus the company. So when the New York Times called and said, Scott, we want to do a profile on you, and I gave them full access, you would have counseled me not to do it?

Kara Swisher: Not for a year. This was a year. This guy was like following me for two or three months.

Scott Galloway: Oh, really?

Kara Swisher: Well, I think that's different. I think that's different. I think CNN has such attention brought to it that it's almost impossible not to fail, especially, he seems to have lack of self-awareness. That's really what it was, right?

Kara Swisher: He doesn't know that people, I get more calls from CNN people unhappy, and I never, I don't even get it why I do. And I think that he's leaving from someone who was beloved, beloved. I'll tell you why they're unhappy.

Kara Swisher: I remember flying or going to the airport and I got a cab. This is back in LA in like the 90s, when you took a cab to the airport, it felt like Apollo 13 reentering the atmosphere when it went over 40 miles an hour. And it was like $110 to get to the airport. This is before Uber. And the driver immediately just started griping and complaining about dirty politics. He used to be a pilot and he flew like Constellations, which were a prop plane, and the future just outsourced him.

Kara Swisher: Cable television is... you're literally, these guys, they don't recognize it. When you talk to these anchors, they're pilots for a 747. So they have a lot of prestige, but it's for Pan Am Airlines in the eighties and their days are numbered.

Scott Galloway: I don't even watch live TV anymore. I don't... what's interesting, Kara, I don't know if you... same way. And I realize this is Pivot Marketing, but I find the same is true of the young people in my company. I don't even turn on my TV. The only time my TV goes on in my household is for my kids playing FIFA. We don't even turn on the TV.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I definitely watch most things streaming. I watch most things streaming. I do watch Stephanie's show. I do, because I like the news at the end of the day, and I think she does a very fair job of it. So I tend to watch that one, but that's...

Scott Galloway: But I'll watch clips of her on my computer.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: They're high prestige, and they're angry. They're angry that they're no longer like the stars and getting ladies leave because they had a pilot's uniform that said Pan Am on it. The bottom line is that this industry is in massive structural decline.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. And still, it's still relevant. I think these are still relevant politically. I think, again, getting back to this piece, he just shouldn't have had. One of the things that happened, he argued that CNN should be home for the absolute truth. But in the Trump Town Hall... whose truth, white man?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, it was truth about it.

Kara Swisher: During the Trump town hall, one of the lieutenants phoned the control room to remove a chyron about the phrase "sexual assault." He denied there was any deal to put pro-Trump pundits on after the panel, after that terrible disaster. And then when asked if his lieutenants made a deal without his knowledge, he says "anything's possible." It was just like, oh, stop talking. I just kept thinking, oh, stop talking, please stop talking. You know what I mean?

Kara Swisher: And I got an interview with him and I thought, good for me, not good for Chris Licht at the time.

Scott Galloway: Memo to anyone who gets a call from Kara.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, no, some people, yes, that's good. Like, yeah, I think, but in this case, I was like, you need to do something before you talk about doing something, especially without a knowledge of, with the knowledge that Jeff Zucker is so well liked. I mean, he just didn't seem to read the room, is what I kept thinking about this guy. And in this case, it's really bad. We'll see. We'll see if he stays. I don't... you're right. I don't know if it matters that much.

Kara Swisher: Interestingly, Chuck Todd is leaving Meet the Press. Chuck Todd at the end of the summer after nearly 10 years on the job. Kristen Welker, who we both have great regard for, NBC's chief Washington correspondent, will take the role. You know, we'll see. Again, another Sunday news show.

Scott Galloway: Wow.

Kara Swisher: Meet the Press is the longest running one, but that might be like being the oldest wagon train. So I don't know.

Scott Galloway: My first response is I love Margaret Brennan. I think she's... I just think she's so good. CBS. I think she does a great job of just... the story is never about her. She just asks very pointed, smart questions. She's the definition of forceful yet dignified, which is what you want in a Sunday morning show.

Scott Galloway: I think Chuck Todd does a great job. I think the guy before him, David Gregory... I think Meet the Press has always had really... I love Tim Russert. I think they do a really good job of producing really good content. And I think he's had a great 10 year run. I hope he feels good about himself. I think he did a great job and I hope he goes on to great things. I love Meet the Press. I think it's a fantastic show.

Kara Swisher: So you do watch that show. You don't or you don't?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, but I watch it online.

Kara Swisher: Online.

Scott Galloway: I watch it on my computer late at night.

Kara Swisher: Late at night, right later. Yeah, it's interesting to figure out. Yeah, I don't think they're... they used to be so relevant, so, so relevant immediately. And I don't think they run the cycle anymore. I think it's hard. All this TV stuff is super... it's kind of good that you're not on CNN Blue right now, I would say. It would be a suck up of your time and I'd probably have a hard time getting your attention.

Scott Galloway: Well, you realize Chris Licht having a conversation with me probably means he's going to be fired in the next 90 days. I am literally Typhoid Mary when it comes to anyone in television.

Kara Swisher: That is true. Don't get near me. Don't get near you.

Scott Galloway: Don't get near me.

Kara Swisher: Don't get near you. Anyway, we'll see. Chris, sorry. Sorry, but really, stop talking. Really. I can't believe I'm saying this to some of us. Stop talking. Let's see. Let's see if you make it. I don't know what you know. You might be presiding over Pan Am, as Scott says. And by the way, for those young people, that was a very sexy airline back in the day, but no longer.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, tech companies are gearing up for 2024, but they've learned their lessons. No, probably not. Also, we'll speak to a friend of Pivot, Ben Terris, about the strange personalities of Washington's elite.

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Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back. As Chris Christie and Mike Pence prepare to jump into the race, tech companies are hurrying to get their election policy straight this week. Instagram reinstated the account of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who's launched a long shot campaign to primary President Biden. Kennedy's Instagram account has been suspended since 2021 for spreading misinformation about COVID vaccines, and so has his organization.

Kara Swisher: Meanwhile, Elon Musk says he'll host Kennedy in a live audio chat like the one with Ron DeSantis. Twitter's former CEO Jack Dorsey thinks that's a good idea. There's all kinds of things happening. You know, they're all sort of loosening up their rules. And then today, our friend Alex Stamos just posted that child online abuse is really problematic on Twitter. And of course, they've cut off other academics from studying it.

Kara Swisher: So Facebook had made rule changes after Trump tweets broke the rules. And now they're going back to where they were. They're going back to where they were essentially. They're just letting them back on and hoping for the best. They'll pretend, they'll backfill reasons for why they're going to put candidates on, such that they can collect money from there.

Scott Galloway: I mean, RFK Jr. will raise somewhere between $50 million and a billion dollars, and 110% of it will go to media. So what do you know? They're going to find excuses to let them back on their platforms. I don't... to me, vaccine denial is... I just find it... I understand the dissenters' voices on, you know, is really important. To me, there's just so much data around this. I have trouble. For me, it's disqualifying.

Scott Galloway: I think that misinformation that he spread... But the only thing that RFK's candidacy shows me is there's such a vacuum and a void and a need for an alternative on the left to battle-test the Democratic... you know, who should be the Democratic nominee. Because I think he is woefully underqualified. But because everyone's falling in line behind Biden, and I understand that, there's just this huge void of anyone credible to present an alternative.

Scott Galloway: But him going back on... they'll say anything, come up with any rationale for why someone with a big checkbook should be allowed back. Remember, all of a sudden, Jack Dorsey grew a pair 11 days before Biden's inauguration to kick Trump off the platform. Oh, Trump's no longer spending money on media. We have found a backbone. Anyway, your thoughts?

Kara Swisher: You know, I just think they just don't want to bother anymore. They just don't care. They don't care. I mean, this APA cutoff for academic groups on Twitter, which is not a surprise. It happened May 31st. You know, it'll be hard for groups that are studying abuse on, say, Twitter or anywhere else to, especially Twitter, in the election cycle.

Kara Swisher: Twitter, two people just left, two major people, Ella Irwin and another executive left Twitter, who was in charge of this. This means all these countries will be able to run rampant on these platforms. And I think Facebook has cut its team, but it's still there. And then something that people don't realize is Republicans in Congress, I just was sent a note by someone, are trying to intimidate any academic or NGO groups from studying election disinformation. Subpoenas all over the place from a lot of things, including going after students.

Kara Swisher: I think they're going to... the Republicans are trying to shut down any serious election misinformation studying by academics. And these platforms are letting these platforms become rife with this kind of abuse. So I don't know if they matter anymore, like cable news, like maybe it doesn't matter. What do you think?

Scott Galloway: I've said it. I think the biggest threat of AI over the last 12 months, I guess it's 18 months, will be generative AI tested, manicured, bulletproofed, leveraged misinformation that these platforms will wring their hands and pretend to be concerned and not do anything about because they're going to make so much money. Can you imagine how much money is going to be spent online by various parties and entities leading up to the election?

Kara Swisher: Yes.

Scott Galloway: It's going to be a disaster. It's going to be an absolute... like I said, I don't think we need an AI pause. I think we need a social media pause on election information 90 days before the election. I think that would really, really help.

Scott Galloway: And also, just to be very transparent, you and I are going to Cannes. Every year I go, I speak to this group of like hundreds of CMOs from the biggest organizations in the world. The only question I know I will get is, "What would your advice be to CMOs around how to build their brands?" Right? And my only piece of advice right now that I'm certain of is the worst place you could advertise would be Twitter. You're advertising on a platform that is subscale, shows no ROI, but you risk being shamed and insulted by the CEO or the old CEO if you stop advertising. And you might be next to really objectionable, awful content.

Kara Swisher: You said something. You got into it with someone and a person with a huge following, huge following.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. Called you the C word.

Kara Swisher: Yep. That's...

Scott Galloway: And I'm like, OK, you know, Lever, do you really want to be next to that shit? And by the way, the person you were in the argument with didn't say... didn't weigh in and say, "Hey, tone it down." That's the platform you want to advertise on.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I think the sexual abuse stuff is really... I mean, I apparently Linda's starting in a couple of days, Yaccarino, although I assume she got out of their contract issues. Best of luck. Like this child sexual abuse stuff material is very serious and they have nobody working there anymore. I don't know what I think. She's... look, again, very well liked. People will give her the benefit of the doubt. But first of all, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Right? As a platform and being next to anything, they've taken every single possible way to protect advertisers. Let's take this away from a societal way. This is a bad place for advertisers right now. And if you have all this stuff going on of trying to stop these people from studying very significant issues like child sexual abuse... wow, that's not really... I don't know what I would...

Scott Galloway: They have asked her, they've given her a very prestigious position. They've said, "We want you to captain a huge prestigious vessel here." The problem is it's the Titanic after it hit an iceberg called Elon Musk. And this is nothing. The best you can hope for is to be seen as someone who couldn't overcome these odds. Because their year-on-year advertising revenues are down 59%. Something people don't talk about because he creates so many sideshows. I challenge anybody to name a company that does over a billion dollars in revenue that has ever seen a 60% year-on-year decline in revenues.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: He's saying they weren't, but now these documents show they are. And these people are trying to keep them away from white supremacists. And now all the people have left. The people who left this week was over this trans video, "What is a woman?" that Elon then promoted.

Kara Swisher: Of course. Of course.

Scott Galloway: Name any company. I can't name any billion-dollar-plus company that has seen a destruction in their business revenues at the hands of new leadership like Elon Musk. And then they cheer him on. That's my whole... good job. You're just not privy to his unfolding genius. Okay, still waiting.

Kara Swisher: Linda, we wish you luck if you're starting this week. Come and visit us in Cannes. We're happy to put you on stage and we can talk about this. As we've said, we've invited her many times. I think you're right. Let's just focus on the business story. 59% ad sales down. All these companies have gutted these election observers or the people that work on this. Twitter's gotten rid of them completely. Facebook has significantly less people. They've just given up. They've given up and AI is here. Yay for democracy. Yay for democracy. This is crazy. It's just... they just decided to give up. They've just decided to give up.

Scott Galloway: There's a certain purity if they just came out and said, "You know, we don't care. We don't care."

Kara Swisher: Well, they do say that.

Scott Galloway: I'm not going to publish a book on gender balance. I'm not going to hire former British politicians to say we're proud of the progress. Just say, "You know, we don't care. We're a for-profit. It's your job to regulate us. Until then, we're going to pour mercury into the river and we're going to sell talcum powder that gives people cancer or painkillers that addict people. That's our job. We're a for-profit company. I don't care." People, they don't care. They don't care about your safety. Honey badger just don't give a shit.

Kara Swisher: I think that would be more honest.

Scott Galloway: That is correct.

Kara Swisher: We wish they would say that. "It's not our job. Oh, well, we'll just let all things fly. And guess what? You're going to continue to spend money despite the fact that we're literally ripping at the fabric of democracy because you guys in Washington can't get your act together."

Kara Swisher: Speaking of which, let's bring in our friend of Pivot. Benjamin Terris is a staff writer for The Washington Post, one of my favorite writers there. I have many favorite writers there. And the author of *The Big Break: The Gamblers, Party Animals, and True Believers Trying to Win in Washington While America Loses Its Mind*. Welcome, Ben.

Kara Swisher: We were just talking about some of the stuff going on on Twitter, the ad sales down, them cutting off some people looking into election misinformation. A lot of the others have cut back on it. So America is losing its mind at the behest of some of these tech companies. But I'd love you to focus in on the Washington part of it, because it doesn't seem like Washington does much about it. So let's talk a little bit about what you think has happened? Because you have the... it's called *The Big Break*. Explain that for people.

Ben Terris: Yeah. Well, first of all, thanks so much for having me on. I have a book coming out called *The Big Break*. And the idea is that Washington has gone through a big break, right? The country has gone through a big break. That's sort of the Donald Trump years. And also there's a whole bunch of people who are trying to take advantage of this new frontier of Washington that's gone through this moment, and they're searching for their own big breaks, right?

Ben Terris: And I think that the thing that I've found in reporting on this for two years is that people are just trying to figure it out. And the place is broken. The people are broken. The politics is broken. Confidence is broken. Relationships are breaking. It's a place that's just not really set up for this moment.

Kara Swisher: And this moment meaning that Trump has broken everything, although maybe it was just destined to break. Maybe it was that brittle that someone came along and this is who he is. What we is may be who we are in a lot of ways, people think.

Ben Terris: Yeah. I mean, first of all, Washington was not in good shape before Donald Trump. That's what allowed him to become president, right? There's a lot of things that he revealed to be true about Washington, not just that he changed the place. He definitely did change it, but there's a lot of things that were true even before he came: ideological malleability, a bubble atmosphere, showmanship. And all these things kind of allowed Trump to succeed. But he made it worse, right? It's the same thing, but more in a lot of ways.

Ben Terris: And I just think that he is back, possibly returning to Washington, and the place is just really not prepared. It's not like they have set up a bunch of safeguards that's going to make it so it's a lot different this time around.

Kara Swisher: Right. And also it's bathed in a sauce of social media, too, because you can't leave that part of it out, like the idea of constant, persistent news, much of which is untrue.

Ben Terris: Of course. I mean, Donald Trump takes advantage of that, right? In 2016, when he was running, there was a lot of talk about how he sucked all the oxygen out of the room. And part of that was because the press really did want to hold him accountable. They wanted to show all the things that he was doing that were norm-breaking and racist. And there was a real need to cover him. But he also took advantage of that, right? If he was the only person being talked about, then he could continue being talked about forever and he could kind of glide into the White House.

Ben Terris: And I think a lot of people in Washington have learned that lesson, right? You look around at the people who are in power now and rising to power, and you can kind of see a little Trumpiness about the way that they use social media to always be in the conversation. Folks who normally wouldn't be considered serious legislators or serious players in Washington suddenly are. And it's because they're following a playbook that at least worked for Donald Trump to a degree. And I think a lot of people think it's going to work for them as well.

Scott Galloway: Nice to meet you, Ben. The thing that really caught me in the intro was the partying in D.C. Can you talk about how, in your view, partying has changed in D.C.? Like where, what, and who? How has it changed? And I'd like to go to some... I'm not sure you would. I mean, yeah. And how to... if it's any good actually. It sounds pretty lame. I would guess it's the lamest partying in the world, but I don't know. So illuminate us.

Ben Terris: Yeah, I mean, it's... for me, it's not fun, right? I mean, going to Washington parties feels like work in a way. But so the book that I have does start with parties because parties are an important part of Washington. There's a lot of soft power, what people like to talk about. It's where you make connections. It's where you talk yourself up. It's where you talk up policy proposals or you try to eventually fundraise from the people that you're around.

Ben Terris: And so to start this book, which is about the post-Trump Washington, possibly the pre-Trump Washington, trying to figure out what's changed about it and what remains the same, I go to two parties to kind of begin this journey. One is a Christmas party for a progressive named Leah Hunt Hendricks, who is the granddaughter of H.L. Hunt, who was the richest man in the world when he died, an oil tycoon. But she's this progressive fundraiser trying to kind of unwind a lot of the populist and right-wing policies that her grandfather cared about.

Ben Terris: And the other party I went to, to get the complete opposite view of Washington, was at Matt and Mercedes Schlapp's house. They live in the largest house on Mansion Drive in Virginia, a house they were able to purchase because they were Trump loyalists who leaned way, way in to supporting Trump. And Matt's lobbying shop skyrocketed because he was a Trump insider.

Ben Terris: And the important part of that for me was to kind of get a sense of how people were acting in Washington in this moment. Trump was gone, but he was maybe on the rise. Biden was trying to make things normal again, but clearly nothing is ever going to be normal again, right? The new normal in Washington is not normal. And so, yeah, it's weird. It's really weird.

Ben Terris: And I wanted to get a sense of how these players were taking advantage of this new moment, taking advantage of it for themselves, whether that's financial. You know, "How are we going to make a living now that Donald Trump is gone?" Or ideologically, right? If you care about the direction of the country, and a lot of people, especially at the progressive party, really had policy proposals that they wanted to get out there before Donald Trump came back or Republicans came back to power. How do you talk about these things at parties?

Ben Terris: And the moods were very different. Progressives were in power, but they just felt down, like something bad was about to happen. Republicans were out of power, but there was a real cynical thing going on there where they felt like, "Look, the stock is low on us. It's time to buy because we're about to go on the rise."

Kara Swisher: That would... the Schlapps are a very strange couple that pops up in Washington from time to time. There's always a Schlapp. What party is more fun and has better alcohol and hotter looking people?

Ben Terris: Republicans.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Ben Terris: The Republican Party was a party, right? The liquor was flowing. People were smiling. People were slapping each other on the backs. Look, I did not have a fun time there. I felt very uncomfortable. But the people who were there were having a blast for sure.

Ben Terris: And Matt and Mercy... Mercy is his wife, Mercedes... were an important couple for me to look at because I was trying to figure out how Washington became what it is today. Right. And they were Bush White House establishment Republican types. I mean, Matt even looks like the ideal version of a Washington lobbyist, you know, kind of a bigger guy, white hair, pearly white teeth. People used to call him like the nice Republican in Washington. And now he's this Trump diehard loyalist who all he wants to do is fight, fight, fight. And to be able to figure out how he got from one kind of establishment figure to what this new establishment looks like, I felt like, okay, well, if I can explain him, I can kind of explain the party.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. We would also be remiss is that he's under legal peril because he allegedly grabbed a guy's junk.

Ben Terris: Exactly.

Kara Swisher: And that's partly what makes him representative of the Republican Party, right? He was a guy who came to Trump's defense before almost anyone during the Access Hollywood tape. And then he allegedly groped somebody himself. And one of the first people to come to his defense is Donald Trump. It's like the party respects loyalty, even when the worst, grossest, allegedly worst things are happening.

Kara Swisher: One of the other things you wrote about, I think you were talking about gamblers, was this character on the Democratic side, Sean McElwee, and his gambling habit. And he was sort of the strategist du jour for a minute there, for a hot minute. And he bet on races, including against his own clients. Is that correct?

Ben Terris: Yeah, he was sort of a Pete Rose of politics, if you will. You know, hotshot Democratic pollster, getting really big clients. He worked for the Fetterman campaign, which... there was no bigger race in 2022 than Fetterman. His polls were getting tweeted out by the White House. He was becoming a real player in Washington. And one of the things he did kind of openly was bet on politics, on congressional races, on whether policies would pass. He had bets with friends about whether a senator who had a stroke would be back in time for a certain vote, that kind of thing. He would bet on everything.

Ben Terris: And for me, I was surprised that he did it. I was also surprised that he did it openly. He talked about this with people. It was not a secret. It was sort of like Trump. If you do your scandal out in the open, people aren't sure if it's a scandal the same way as if it gets uncovered. But Sean, between the betting and his connections to Sam Bankman-Fried and the way that he rubbed people the wrong way, his story was a very dramatic story in this book of a guy on the rise and what happens when you end up on the wrong side of too many stories.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, a lot of stories. The other one, and then I'll let Scott ask the last question, is Frank Luntz, who I've interviewed. He's a Republican pollster. Very "Contract with America" was Frank Luntz. A lot of what's happened now, and he even talks about it, is due to a lot of stuff Frank Luntz did way back in the day with Newt Gingrich. He's sort of since become an anti-Trumper. Talk about him, because he's sort of trying to... he often is trying to be the reasonable person in the room these days, which I cannot... Frank Luntz would not be the person I would have thought of as the reasonable person in the room, in most cases back then, at least.

Ben Terris: Yeah. So I met up with Frank Luntz as he was moving out of a house in Virginia that he lived in for a long time. You know, he was kind of the center of Republican politics in the 90s, like you mentioned. And this house was this kind of crazy situation. It was decorated almost as if he was like an overgrown child. He had cabinets in his kitchen full of baseball cards, and he had a Terminator statue that was in the yard. And he had the original Bob's Big Boy burger mascot kind of guarding his pool. But he was moving out. And the reason was, he said, is because he was kind of done with this part of his life.

Ben Terris: He told me that Donald Trump nearly killed him, that he hated Donald Trump so much that it gave him a stroke. And he ended up in the hospital and he has to take all sorts of medicine, which weirdly is administered sometimes by his best friend, Kevin McCarthy, which is an odd detail that he let me know.

Kara Swisher: With him.

Ben Terris: Yep. They lived together for a while. And they may still, Frank wouldn't say one way or the other. But what was interesting to me about him is he was a guy who is partially responsible for this moment we're in. I mean, he worked for Rudy Giuliani. He worked with Gingrich, as he mentioned. He was a kind of a word guru type who could help Republicans get elected by saying the right words, calling the estate tax the "death tax" so people would think...

Kara Swisher: He was a death tax guy.

Ben Terris: Yeah. And I really kind of wanted to press him on, "Okay, I know you feel bad about this current state of American politics, but do you feel any responsibility for it yourself?" And he wouldn't take the blame, right?

Ben Terris: I mean, it's hard to do, I suppose, but he wouldn't take the blame. But he was saying that he's now trying to do everything he can to make things better. He worked for the Biden White House trying to get Republicans to get COVID vaccines. But ultimately, the work that he's done has gotten us to this moment.

Kara Swisher: He's trying to say everything's normal. He reminds me of the guy in Animal House where he's like, "Remain calm. Everything's normal." Sometimes he and I argue about this because I was like, you're dealing with bad people and you're thinking it's going to be okay. And by the way, you created the bad people. And I'm sorry they grew up so badly, but you're their dad.

Ben Terris: Well, one of the reasons I decided to write this book in the first place was because when Biden became president, there was this idea that we could return to normal. People thought things could go back to normal. And so Frank Luntz is not alone in this kind of quest to make things seem normal or move towards normal. But when I looked around, and I've covered Washington for 10 or 12 years, I just didn't see it. I don't see how this can go back to normal.

Kara Swisher: Just curious, you spent a lot of time with these folks. To the extent you're comfortable revealing this, what individuals really surprised you to the upside in terms of their character and made you feel better about America?

Ben Terris: Well, the job I have is an interesting one. Everyone in the country can look around and know that things are broken, but not everybody has the ability like I do to go and figure out why, to get into these back rooms, to get to know people who wouldn't otherwise talk to me. I'm a journalist trying to understand them. A lot of people that I spoke to in this book are complicated. And if you take the good stuff that they're trying to do, you can see maybe there is a path to fixing things if you just look at the good parts. But to me, the part of Washington that gave me some hope, even though it's dark times, was talking to some of the workers on Capitol Hill.

Kara Swisher: You mean the staff?

Ben Terris: The staff. A lot of young people come to Washington because they actually want to do things. They actually want to make change. You think that Washington is only filled with cynical people who want influence and power. Sure, there's a lot of people like that. But there's also people who go into work every day, work long hours, and are desperately trying to change things. A lot of the people I talked to in this book, the people that I think make this book special, are those folks. There are a lot of Washington books that come out, but not a lot that focus on what at least one person called the "subaltern" of Washington — the kind of people who are not right next to all the power, they don't have all the power themselves, but help make the place run.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I would say that too. So do you have hope? Because this is a crackpot group of people, I have to tell you, in your book. All your stories are like that. I'm like, oh God, these crazy fucking people. And they're in positions of power. It's not like, oh look at Marjorie Taylor Greene doing her whack job whatever she does every day. But a real influence. Do they or not? Because you just saw this deal getting struck, the debt ceiling deal, which seemed rather rational, cooperative, and compromising.

Ben Terris: Absolutely. I mean, look, that deal, I wouldn't use that deal to say things are back to normal. It's great that we didn't have economic collapse in the country, but that is a pretty low bar. Just barely being able to avert disaster is good. It's better than hitting disaster, but I wouldn't say Washington is fixed because of it. But I do have some hope, sure. The country has been through lots of terrible times. I don't know if we're going to be at a hopeful time in the next few months or few years, but there are a lot of smart people that come to Washington and continue coming to Washington and have decided to stick around Washington despite this. And yeah, I have hope that those are the people who end up ultimately finding their way to influence.

Kara Swisher: All right. It's a very good read, this book. Ben Terris's book, *The Big Break: The Gamblers, Party Animals, and True Believers Trying to Win in Washington While America Loses Its Mind*. How about they lose and we win? That would be great. It's out today. Thank you, Ben.

Scott Galloway: Thanks, Ben.

Ben Terris: Thanks so much for having me.

Kara Swisher: I like him very much. Let's adopt that guy.

Scott Galloway: I know. Isn't he nice? There's a bunch of reporters at The Washington Post that are, I think Ruby Kramer. There's a whole bunch doing really thoughtful things across the country on real people. And I just think he's one of them.

Kara Swisher: One more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. You go first.

Scott Galloway: Well, I watched the first half. I went to sleep because it was late here, but I watched the first half of the town hall with — do you call her Ambassador Haley or Governor Haley? Whatever. She should go for it now. My win is, I thought the town hall was actually pretty good. And I thought Jake Tapper, he got some shit for not interjecting or pushing back. But I think probably the way to handle a town hall is just to let them run and be more of a facilitator and let people ask questions and then let people judge for themselves what they thought. I thought it was actually a really good town hall. I don't agree with a lot of her policies, but I thought she was forceful and eloquent.

Kara Swisher: She was very rehearsed. She's not catching fire, though. It's interesting.

Scott Galloway: And my win is also, I thought she was very eloquent. The smartest thing, and granted I have a bias here because it supports something I feel very strongly about, is she's differentiating herself from the other Republican candidates in terms of her stance on Ukraine. She eloquently pointed out that this isn't just about Ukraine. This is about the West. This is about sending a signal to China to not invade Taiwan. This is about sending a signal to North Korea that if they fuck with anyone around them, we're going to push back. This really is a statement on whether or not the West, when it's unified and puts the full faith and credit and resources and creativity and belief in democracy and our weapons and our fighting forces, when we all finally come together, what happens? This is going to be the defining moment, I think, for the West in a long time. It's not interest rates. It's not inflation. It's not who the president is. I think this will set the signal and tone for whether we decide that murderous autocrats can run roughshod over borders and free nations. She said that forcefully, and I thought she was very good. So my win was what she said about Ukraine and the town hall. My loss was she went on this anti-trans rant, basically saying that it's no wonder that one in three girls are depressed when they risk having a trans person in their locker room. She said, "It's no wonder that teen girls are depressed." There is absolutely no evidence, no data to support the notion that the existence of trans kids or your involvement with a trans kid on any level creates depression among girls. What there is evidence of: half of trans and non-binary kids have considered suicide in the past year. One in four LGBTQ teens attempted suicide in the first half of 2021. Think about that. If there are 100 LGBTQ kids out of high school, 24 attempted suicide in the first half of 2021, according to the CDC. Because they feel persecuted and unwelcome. When their leaders say these things, when people demonize marginalized groups like this, it is the mother of all pivots. It shows that she's mocking a serious issue. She has no understanding of the issue and cements this basic go-to from the GOP where they decide to demonize and go after marginalized groups. Teen depression is a function of a lot of things, mostly social, going on, mobile. Parents, as parents, we have to take some responsibility. The concierge or bulldozer parenting we engage in does not prepare them for the harshness and the disappointment that at some point they will face. But nowhere on that list is a trans kid showing up at your swim meet or in the locker room. No one has been able to remotely correlate that with teen depression. I thought that was a very disappointing moment.

Kara Swisher: I would agree. I don't know why she's going for that. I was sort of shocked. Because the Republicans love it. The far right, the crazies love it. It's ridiculous. It was like, "Oh my God, teen girls is such an important issue. Are you kidding me?" Like literally, there are half a dozen issues. So all teen girls are depressed about this? Teen girls are depressed about sexualized content in media, about men who assault them — mostly cis men, almost all — and social media and everything else. I agree with you 100%. I think this report about Twitter missing all these images of child sexual abuse and researchers not being allowed on these platforms. With AI and other countries attacking us in election misinformation, that's bad enough. This is just not having stringent detection systems for child sexual abuse on these platforms. I don't even know what to say. It's such a fail. It's across the board. These social media companies, as AI is going to flood campaigns with fake videos, flood 2024. Just that they're giving up is such a — not a surprise in any way — but I'm still like, "Are you kidding me?" You're going to get worse. That would be a fail for me. There's news today that this is a positive thing. Spotify's cutting jobs across podcasting. They made too big a bet. I think it's sad for all the people who they've laid off — 600 employees this year at Spotify, podcasting divisions getting gutted really. But I thought they overhired and it was bad for the business because it's a great business. They overpaid. It reminds me of many years ago when that happened in content. So I do think, as things start to equalize in terms of economics, it's a good thing, although I feel terrible for all the people who lost their jobs in its podcasting division because they put out some very good podcasts. There's a need for everything to equalize from an economic point of view.

Scott Galloway: On that point, and this podcast shall remain nameless, but a top 50 podcast, I've gotten to know the co-host pretty well. They called and asked about renegotiating their deal. They told me their deal. And then they said, "What's your advice?" I'm like, "My advice is to save money. You have a non-economic." People never feel overcompensated. They never feel overcompensated. They feel fairly compensated. When you feel fairly compensated, it usually means you're probably being overcompensated relative to the market. When I heard their deal, I'm like, "Let me guess. You struck this with Spotify two years ago with an executive who was giving a checkbook and, quite frankly, was drunk." I said, "Just be clear. I don't think you'll ever replicate anything. I've seen your numbers. You've told me your revenues. You will not replicate this deal in a million years. Just do the math. They paid a multiple of revenues for you. How do they get that back?" The market is doing what it's supposed to do. Unfortunately, in podcasting, you want to talk about income inequality? The inequality across these passion fields, less than 1% of podcasters make more than 99% of the revenue. The 0.0001% make enough money to even make it profitable, to make it a living. Podcasting more than probably almost any other field, with the possible exception of professional sports, your odds are almost impossible. In podcasting, it is really inequality gone crazy. I don't know if there's a solution here, but if you're one of those people at Spotify that struck a deal for millions of dollars, enjoy it, my brothers and sisters. It may not be there at the end of your contract. But I think it's actually healthy for the system, ultimately.

Kara Swisher: It does remind me of the old days when they started coming at my reporters at Recode for such crazy salaries. I think I've told the story before, but they offered one of my reporters an insane salary. They came to me and said, "Do you want to match this?" And I said, "I don't even want to pay you your current salary. I think you're overpaid." It was crazy. I think it was bad for business. It was bad for everyone. It made us all do non-economic things. I never did, but I thought it was bad for the people who lost their jobs, but good for everyone to get sensible about the economics of their business. So we'll see.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday for more. Read us out.

Scott Galloway: Today's show was produced by Lara Neyman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her top engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Emil Severio. Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to *Pivot* from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Kara Swisher: Cara, I will see you on — when do we record? I'll see you on Thursday.