Social Media Bad Guys, Mar-a-Lago Mania, and Co-Host Monica Lewinsky

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott Galloway is auditioning for the role of Professor X in the new Marvel movie. So today I'm joined by producer, writer, and social activist, and one of my favorite people, really, Monica Lewinsky. Welcome, Monica.

Monica Lewinsky: Hey, Kara. Good morning. How's it going?

Kara Swisher: What's going on? We talked last. We had the most amazing podcast interview for Sway, people loved it. It was really a wonderful interview. And you were in the midst of your various and sundry production stuff. So I'd love to know what to get an update from you.

Monica Lewinsky: I am loving producing and I'm kind of been crazy busy. I have, I think, seven projects in various stages of development. So I'm learning the process and kind of also how slow sometimes the business can be.

Kara Swisher: Yes. And that, you know, selling a show doesn't necessarily mean it'll end up on TV, but, you know, it's, it's been really interesting. I'm learning a lot. So I feel grateful.

Kara Swisher: You got two out of the park right at the beginning. You were a producer on American Crime Story, just impeachment, American Crime Story. And then you did your, which I thought that was perfectly fine, but I really loved your bullying documentary. So what were the repercussions of that from your, we talked a lot about that issue.

Monica Lewinsky: In terms of the 15 Minutes of Shame documentary?

Kara Swisher: Yes.

Monica Lewinsky: Okay. Well, I think that, you know, what was amazing is we heard from people the exact kind of conversation we were hoping to hear people having of being really sort of shown a human side of what happens when we start down that kind of cancel spiral, both when it is warranted and when it's not. And just getting people to really think about their behavior online.

Kara Swisher: But let me ask you, I mean, people, one of the things I was thinking of that, because I was on a panel yesterday, on a PBS panel, and George Farmer from Parler was there, which is, we get along rather well, which is shocking. But he was talking about graciousness in terms of being able, one of the things is people have to take control of it. I was making the point that some of it's addictive and people lose their minds when they're on social media. And at the same time, some people take advantage of it. And that's, you know, Donald Trump's a perfect example, a constant victim. Or they become grievance grifters, right? That, you know, you can't pile on. And so it's hard to separate the stories you told, which I thought were very fair, versus people who are taking advantage of it. Do you think that's gotten better or worse since you did the documentary?

Monica Lewinsky: I think that we're seeing, I think we're probably seeing more of it as the cancel culture conversation continues and gets bigger and bigger. And, you know, something I think I advocated for when we spoke last fall is really trying to parse out this umbrella of cancel culture. I think we, you know, consequence culture is, you know, and accountability is you and Roxane Gay have kind of talked about it. And that would, I think, help us separate out people like the people that were in the documentary who are regular people whose lives are unbelievably impacted, whether they've made a mistake or not, versus people who are in the public eye. But in terms of the stepping into a victim mode more in public people of being pounded on, you know, on social media.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, we do. I think that there's, people are looking for attention no matter what.

Monica Lewinsky: But I actually want to go back to what you were saying about what Farmer was saying to you with the graciousness, because they think that something I've been thinking a lot about, you know, for online, but also offline is really around the idea of dignity and just like, how do we, how do we afford people more dignity? Even people I may not agree with politically. So, but I think that sort of goes hand in hand with graciousness, you know, in terms of getting people to, to step into that more because it's a choice, right?

Kara Swisher: Right. You know, right. Well, at the same time, I was thinking about it because, you know, there, there is a grievance economy. There's an, you know, I'm mad at Dr. Seuss. I'm mad at, whether it's for political or for money or for selling blogs or podcasts, there is a bit of that going on. And at the same time, people do pile on. It's a very difficult thing because you cannot separate the two from each other and the medium, which is naturally addictive, naturally, you know, hair trigger, anger, rage, and things like that.

Monica Lewinsky: Well, I think, too, we talk about it in the doc and we call it outrage culture. So I think that those can live side by side in a way. And I do think that people are, they're finding more and more ways to just get more attention and I think manipulate things. And unfortunately, often the people who are doing that are the loudest and get the most attention. So that instances where we might actually want to be reevaluating how we're behaving become harder to see.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it totally does. So what are you working on? So what's after that? What is the topics that you're working on? Give us an idea.

Monica Lewinsky: Yeah, I mean, I'm really focused. So I have a first look deal at 20th Television. So I'm focused on scripted TV at the moment and really interested in everything from, you know, kind of seeing stories that we think we know through a different lens to stories that show different aspects of women that we know about, but we maybe don't pay enough attention to. Something on privacy. So it's really.

Kara Swisher: Don't call me up for that one.

Monica Lewinsky: But these are all scripted. So it's a whole new world. It's really a whole new world for me. And fortunately, all the people I'm working with have been really patient when I'm sort of, you know, don't know all the lingo, because that's always the first thing you have to do in a new industry, right, is learn all the lingo.

Kara Swisher: Can I give you a pro tip?

Monica Lewinsky: Yes.

Kara Swisher: They're not that smart. It's not that hard. It's not that hard. I think so much of our world, right? I mean, even think about what we're talking about right now about the, you know, grievance economy and stuff. And then another way to say it is it's storytelling, right? So it's people with their narratives and storytelling. So, you know, we think about what influences the stories that get told and the ones that don't.

Monica Lewinsky: So I'm in a very lucky phase right now because I'm so new at this where I haven't had a lot of rejection. So I'm like, this is amazing. I love producing, but I'm really good at this.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Okay. All right. So today we'll talk about a lot of things, including how social media is holding men accountable for their bad behavior. We'll also unpack the latest update in the Trump investigation. And we'll hear from a listener about staying healthy on social media. But first, an update from last week in our last episode. Molly Wood and I talked about Germany's plan to keep three nuclear power plants online as part of an effort to free itself from Russian fuel. But over the weekend, Germany changed tack and announced that it will shut down those nuclear plants. After all, it's going to be a cold winter in Germany, I suspect, because things are not getting better there.

Kara Swisher: In other news, let's talk about a few things. Brian Stelter is out at CNN after the cancellation of reliable sources. Stelter did one last show on Sunday. Let's listen to a clip of his sign-off.

[Clip plays]

Brian Stelter: Here's what I do know. I know it's not partisan to stand up for decency and democracy and dialogue. It's not partisan to stand up to demagogues. It's required. It's patriotic. We must make sure we don't give platforms to those who are lying to our faces. But we also must make sure we are representing the full spectrum of debate and representing what's going on in this country and in this world. That's why CNN needs to be strong.

[End clip]

Kara Swisher: All right. So CEO David Zasloff of the parent company Warner Brothers Discovery is trying to find $3 billion in cost savings. I doubt Brian's that much of a drop in the bucket for that. But some think this was part of a plan to make the network less opinionated. Key shareholder John Malone has called for CNN to return to nonpartisan coverage. At the same time, Chris Lick met with Republican lawmakers, apparently talking about earning back trust. Talk a little bit about this, because as someone who's been the subject of that kind of demagoguery, speaking of which, and also you watch it and you've done documentaries about it. What do you think about this idea of moving back to the center and not being quite as political on cable, for example? I feel as if it's something that could lead us down a bad path, and it's something that could actually maybe lead to something that we need, which is I highly doubt Fox News is going to change how they do news. And wouldn't it be better to have something that's an alternative that might pull some people? I'm not a media expert, so I don't know.

Monica Lewinsky: I mean, it's somewhere I think. Like I know Brian just from Twitter and he seems like a really lovely person. So it feels on a personal level, it feels like, oh, this is this is not supposed to happen to the good people. So he got really he became the subject of a lot of right wing attacks, you know, no matter what he did. And sometimes he made mistakes, you know, but at the same time.

Kara Swisher: Oh, he's human.

Monica Lewinsky: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But one of the things I was thinking about is if he had had if it had had it had been working at CNN and the ratings were higher, they keep doing it. So this is all sort of a canard to John Malone to talk about it, because if it works, if they had a Fox News situation, you're right, Fox News isn't going to change. And if CNN had his big ratings and they don't, they would stick with that if it works, in my estimation. I don't think it's good for society, any of it, by the way.

Kara Swisher: What don't you think is good? Just trying to have a more neutral news?

Monica Lewinsky: Not neutral, it's just news. Just there is news, right? Not the constant commentary. And I get exhausted watching it. I can't watch cable news anymore because even if I agree, I'm sort of horrified with it at the same time. But Fox is very good at it. And the people who watch Fox are very motivated to be angry all the time.

Kara Swisher: Right. Well, I think that we have seen sort of the, you know, more punditry that's there is there. There is also, you know, it does become kind of more like online. It's about the outrage culture. It's about stirring people up, getting reactions. So that's disconcerting. And and if the neutral, more neutral becomes the whataboutism, that's certainly not where we want to go either. Bradley Whitford had a great tweet yesterday. He's a very good tweeter.

Monica Lewinsky: Yeah, he's very good.

Kara Swisher: And he was saying something about, you know, it's like it's not a journalist's job if it's raining outside to put someone on saying, well, it's not raining, you know, it's just it's sunny out. Say what it is. Exactly. That it's not a journalist's job to show both sides of the weather, I think, really.

Monica Lewinsky: Right. That's exactly right. But one of the things I've noticed, you're not really on Fundotree. You could easily have made a career of this, correct? You could have been a, I could see you on the view. I've certainly had offers. I've tried to navigate a path that has just felt right to an inner compass. And I'm not sure if that's always, I've always made the right decisions, but I have relied on that inner compass and being able to get advice, just take really smart people's temperatures, you know, and results.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I can see you, them wanting someone like you on there for lots of reasons, right? And then you do the hot takes, the constant hot takes.

Monica Lewinsky: Yeah, I like being behind the camera more. So, yeah, well, you could. I mean, yeah, I could see you on these shows. By the way, Stelzer is already making close to a million dollars annually at CNN. Still not very much money if they're trying to cut three billion. Seems small. But we'll see what happens at that network. I think they have many more challenges at CNN and also Warner itself than just this kind of stuff, which takes a lot of attention. They have a really serious problem, as I've said many times, which I think irritated David Zaslav, but they're too small. They're just too small and too much debt, and they're going to have to sell CNN at some point.

Monica Lewinsky: Oh, interesting. That's interesting. You know, one thing I guess I should also say for full disclosure, because we've mentioned my doc, that my doc is on HBO Max, which is now owned by. But what I wonder is, or what I wish, and maybe this is just I'm too Pollyanna-ish, I wish they had given Brian an opportunity to change to either make a show a different show that was sort of more in line with what they were looking for or something different Because I think he did have a trusted he had a lot of trust from his audience And that has seemed to be something we don't have enough of in news, in my opinion.

Kara Swisher: Interesting. I thought they were just throwing him to the, that was just a thing to the right. Here you go. We killed, like the same thing with CNN Plus. they needed to save money and make Wall Street think they were serious, which it's very, the numbers, just the math ain't mathin', as they say. And then with Brian, it's just like, look, look, look what we did to earn goodwill. That's my feeling. It's totally cynical, but that's me.

Kara Swisher: Speaking of, totally cynical, Elon Musk will have a trick-or-treat this Halloween. He's announced a show-and-tell of Neuralink progress on October 31st. He's reportedly frustrated with the slow progress of his brain-computer interface company, because there really isn't a product, actually. He and I have talked about this a lot. It's a great idea, not so much in practice, and his approach to his rival Synchron about a deal. Synchron's been doing a lot better. The competitor beat Neuralink to the first human trial as a brain interface. This is something super interesting to Elon, putting chips in your brain. You tweeted a Salon article from Emil P. Torres about long-termism. What do you think that has to do with all of this?

Monica Lewinsky: It's terrifying. I think it's terrifying. It's fascinating, but it's really ultimately terrifying. And I think really where this, where my mind started going this morning after I read the Salon piece was thinking about, because Elon had also tweeted something earlier in his support of the belief structure. And I think that where I started to get concerned was just thinking about if Elon ends up owning Twitter and then he's got Neuralink and he has these beliefs, you know, and he's also got Tesla and SpaceX and that this is, and they're talking about in long-termism, they're looking at the, you know, transhumanism and looking at how to preserve humanity and how to go into space and how to, and some eugenics in there. It's terrifying, you know, that, that's sort of a terrifying thing. And I don't, I don't know enough about antitrust laws to, to know if that covers anything. I mean, in terms of a monopoly, you know, so that we look at monopoly of, of competition, but is there anybody who looks out and says, actually it's not okay for, and he is a brilliant mind, for a brilliant mind, one of, or if not the wealthiest person in the world, to now have access to this much human information and influence, you know?

Kara Swisher: There is no law actually, but I see, you know, it's not an anti, it's like, it's not, one is because Twitter doesn't make money and it's not a real business. This is about a bigger idea. His Neuralink idea, which is still vaporware really at this point, is the concept of either putting chips in your brains in the very simplest sense, and I'm actually really dumbing it down, to enable you to compete with AI or creating fully, this is a guy named Bostrom, who is their inspiration from England, who I've met many times, is the idea that we have digital minds, this concept, which is a sci-fi concept. It's a, lots of writers write about it. The idea, some people feel that the body, It needs to be overcome, really. Like, we have to go beyond the body.

Monica Lewinsky: Yeah, but I mean, in a different way, it's interesting because they talk about digital minds, but you're really talking about consciousness, you know? So, from the more woo-woo perspective, which is where I come from.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky: You like a good stone that's emanating energy.

Kara Swisher: I have my crystal. I've got two crystals right here. You sent one to my friend Amina. Amina loves your crystals.

Monica Lewinsky: Well, I'm a big believer. But what's your take on Nick Bostrom? You know, all these people have their gurus, right? And it's just another guru kind of situation.

Kara Swisher: Interesting ideas, you know, not present in sci-fi before, so nothing fresh and new in my estimation. If you read any sci-fi, even H.D. Wells, these ideas, not H.D. Wells in particular. Or even Ishiguro. Yeah, they all do. Even Scarlett Johansson was in one, if you remember. She went into the computer. Remember that movie that came and went?

Monica Lewinsky: No.

Kara Swisher: But she became the computer. It was, anyway, there's tons of this. What was that called? Not her. You're not talking about her, right?

Monica Lewinsky: No, because her was incredible.

Kara Swisher: Okay. Did you like that?

Monica Lewinsky: I did not like that.

Kara Swisher: I did. I liked her a lot. Why did you like that? This was a movie by Spike Jonze about a computer interface that you listen to in your ear. And it was, who was it? What's his name? Joaquin Phoenix.

Monica Lewinsky: Right. Falls in love with the computer interface. And then she gets bored by him, essentially. because she's so smart, right? Or she or it or whatever it is.

Kara Swisher: Well, I think it was, I think that it was telling us, or it was foreshadowing what was going to happen in our sort of with AI coming along. You think about that was before something like Alexa. And in a sort of strange way, Alexa is a pulled back version of that. And I think that we're seeing more and more as we go into the metaverse. I think that, you know, you look back to Second Life, you know, I'm continually, I want to make a doc on Second Life, actually, because I'm genuinely fascinated by how it sort of came. It seems to have gone how that was a really first example of of social behavior changing so drastically from computers. You know, people having costumes, social media and coast playing. Really, that's really what it is. And people do it whether they're dressed up in costumes and realize it's a really you know, I find it when I think about her. I ran at Spike Jonze of all places. I was on a yacht in France at Cannes, and he was there on some yacht. I forget, some rich guy. And he really wanted to know what I thought. And I went, eh. I was like, Larry David. I'm like, eh. And he goes, what? He goes, this is my greatest movie. And I was like, okay, all right. And he goes, what are you talking about? And I said, they fall in love, really? That's all you can come up with, with like a sentient being who is in the cloud? Like, that's all you can think of is they take a picnic? Like, can't you get more creative? And he literally was like, get the fuck away from me. I was like, well, you asked me. I was like, I literally felt like Larry David, you know, okay, okay, and walked away.

Kara Swisher: But speaking of real life people, Finland's prime minister, it's Sanaa Maren, took a drug test after leaked videos, showed her partying with friends. I thought she looked great. The videos don't appear to show any drugs, and Maren denies taking any, but her opponents in parliament called for her partying unbecoming and pushed for the test. It's ridiculous. She was having, a lady was having a good time, just like AOC dancing. Remember that? That drove the Republicans crazy.

Monica Lewinsky: Yeah. I hard agree with you, Kara. Hard agree.

Kara Swisher: So what's the problem here? Sexism? What else is new?

Monica Lewinsky: I mean, it's just, yeah, exactly. I mean, it's bullshit. It is complete fucking bullshit, this thing. Because if it were a video of a male prime minister, and certainly, and maybe a decade older too. So I think some of it has to do with her youth, but mainly about the fact that she's a woman, a woman in power who is also owning her own, I don't want to say narrative, but she's just fully herself, it seems. And we would never, we would show this video saying, how cool, this is part of the, I want to have a beer with you, you know, moment of what happens. Or possibly uncomfortable because an older man dancing is never as fun as this one. This one was having just joy. I just was like, she's having a great time with her friends, being silly and ridiculous. And the idea that she doesn't have a life outside of work is ridiculous. You know, it's incredible.

Kara Swisher: Other things that happened in Finland over the past week, except for the dancing prime minister, were Russians' planes were suspected of violating Finnish airspace. Finland got one step closer to joining NATO after French President Emmanuel Macron signed his country's support and Finland hit record high inflation. You'd think they could cover anything else but their dancing prime minister.

Monica Lewinsky: Well, you know, when you have a chance to bash a woman, why not? Why not? Why not? Why not? It's ridiculous. We both, Monica and I have had it. Let her dance away. But also, too, what I think is interesting is had she had a private party in her own residence, right, then people would have sort of, and something hadn't leaked, they would have accused her of, you know, a drug-filled party on government time or, you know, who knows?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah. She's not married to the government. These Finnish people have to lighten the fuck up. That's what I say.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, speaking of dancing, I want to wish Sheryl Sandberg got married over the weekend. I know there's a lot of controversy on Sheryl, but her husband died many years ago and she married Tom Bernthal on a ceremony in Wyoming on Saturday. She'll officially step down from her role as CEO of Meta later this year, so a whole new life. But she won't vanish from the public eye. The actress Claire Foy of The Crown will play Sandberg in a new TV show about Facebook's rocky years starting in 2016. I have met with the people who are making that, so I know quite a bit about it. Sandberg was reportedly concerned about how she'd be portrayed in upcoming film and TV projects, she said to have told one advisor, there's no scenario in which a successful businesswoman is not portrayed as a raging bitch. You know, I actually spoke with them. I don't think that's what's happening here. And I actually went out of my way to talk to the creators of this about her. And I hope they don't do that. That's a very complex story she has, not all good. But what do you think about that?

Monica Lewinsky: I agree. I think she'll probably get a harder time than Mark Zuckerberg every time, even though he's in charge. Yeah, I hope that it's nuanced. I hope that I know Cheryl a little bit personally, and she's actually one of the handful of people who I think sort of powerful public people who was very kind to me early on in the last decade. and that meant a lot to me. I can't say I've certainly agreed with all the business decisions but I mean, having spoken to the people with the show, I mean, what's your feeling? That you think it'll be more nuanced?

Kara Swisher: I hope so. That was my point. I brought them the column I wrote saying, you know, she certainly is culpable for things, the problems and this and that and maybe cover that clearly but the person in charge is Mark Zuckerberg and very much like a lot of men in power, The women tend to get most of the fallout or the collateral damage around them. And that just happens over and over again. Like Elizabeth Holmes gets to jail. And not that he committed fraud, but guess who just got $350 million? Adam Neumann, right? So there's more forgiveness for men than there is for women.

Monica Lewinsky: Certainly. But I also think, too, that Cheryl tried to do something as a powerful woman in business. is that she, I think with Lean In, with her book, I think that she tried to also bring a more human and nuanced side to the archetype, I guess, if you will, of a woman in business. And that's in a way trying to, we've seen that with women in politics, but I think that that's a, she's trying to bridge a gap there, if you will.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, certainly. You know? I think she's got to own the business side and the business decisions. She's got to own them just like anybody else. But I do think, again, when push comes to shove, Mark is a boy that made a mistake and she is a raging bitch. I do. And she's not. She's simply not that way. We'll have to get a social network, too, right? Social network, too.

Monica Lewinsky: All right. Yeah. When that was coming out, Mark was very upset. I remember having a conversation with him. And I was like, he's like, this is the way people are going to think of me. And I said, no, because you don't talk this much. And those people, the character, I was like, stop talking. Mark never talks that much. This is just the way it is. She's going to be a character. And by the way, Claire Foy is playing you, Cheryl. That's a good person to play.

Kara Swisher: That is, exactly. Exactly. I would like Claire Foy to play. Who would you like to play you? What would you have? You had two people.

Monica Lewinsky: I have. I've had Beanie. Beanie Feldstein. That's right. She did a really wonderful job, I think, of capturing that youth in my 20s and the emotional truce of that time period.

Kara Swisher: It must be so weird to have someone play.

Monica Lewinsky: It is very weird. It is a very strange process.

Kara Swisher: Yes, it is. Yeah, yeah. You know, I met one of the producers of White Lotus, and apparently in the second season, they were going to base a character on me. He's a big fan of Sway and everything. And I was like, really? And then they didn't do it. And I was like, damn. But they probably get like, they were going to have Laura Dern play me, I think. I think. Which I was like, yay, doesn't look anything like me. I mean, she's, yeah. It wasn't me, but it was a character base.

Monica Lewinsky: Right, right. Well, let's talk, Kara. Maybe there is a show there inspired by her. Holly Hunter.

Kara Swisher: Holly Hunter. Holly Hunter. Remember Broadcast News?

Monica Lewinsky: Of course. Who does not remember Broadcast News?

Kara Swisher: Well, there you go. There you go. Anyway, we'll see. Cheryl, congratulations on getting married. Congratulations on turning a chapter here. Let's see what big things you can do with all your blessings, which includes a lot of money, some changes you could make. they really do need people to work on things like abortion rights and things like that.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, let's get to our first big story. It been a week for bad men on social media First CEO Dan Price stepped down from his post at Gravity Payments after the New York Times article detail a history of alleged abuses against women including an accusation of rape Price first drew fawning headlines It's really irritated me at the time when he took a million dollar pay cut and set his company's minimum salary at $70,000. Since then, he's been a prolific poster on Twitter and LinkedIn, putting out messages in support of social justice and progressive politics. He's got the long hair, the sort of Jesus look. And then in another story, Meta and TikTok banned Manosphere influencer Andrew Tate. Tate is a former kickboxer and reality star and an all-around jode who went viral this year with misogynistic rants and interviews. He's been banned from Twitter since 2017 when he said that women, quote, bear some responsibility for their sexual assaults. Tate definitely gamed the TikTok algorithm to spread his content. He's a very clever man. And what do you think this is evidence of? This is the first time social networks are doing something rather demonstrative in terms of that. Of course, they're getting into getting a lot of heat for it. What do you think about that? Because people like Tate or Dan Price, interestingly, he's on the sort of other end of the spectrum of politics, use social media to either, you know, enhance their profiles or make money or different things like that.

Monica Lewinsky: I think it's a good thing in some ways for right now because in a way it's a pendulum swinging the opposite way. I think it's a good thing to start to see this change because had more of this happened before, I think, the 2016 election, we might have seen different things happening of just people trying to take control and say, OK, yes, we want to be mindful of the First Amendment. But we also we I was thinking the other day about the fact that, like, sure, you can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater when there's not a fire. That seems like child's play now compared to to what people are saying in the kind of, you know, lies and fake news and propaganda that is spewed on social media. So I think the thing that is interesting to me about the Tate story is, and we saw this a bit with Donald Trump, is that the people who rise to these, like have a meteoric rise in social media, that what we don't do enough of is, I think, pay attention to what is it saying about the culture? What's it saying about people's underlying beliefs?

Monica Lewinsky: Which is ultimately what social media is mapping, in my opinion. So that's just kind of what terrifies me. When we get too positively or negatively enthralled with the shiny object of the one person, it ignores that there are people who get turned on to those beliefs by the attention the person gets. But there were already people looking for someone who had those beliefs. And that's fucking terrifying.

Kara Swisher: Yes, it is. It is. Well, what they have has come out of the woodwork in terms of they were in the dark, right?

Monica Lewinsky: Exactly.

Kara Swisher: A lot of the right wing. They were, you know, people are like, "Well, now we can see them." I'm like, "I wish they'd go back to the dark because that's where they belong." But it's an interesting thing because it bangs up against, in Tate's situation, by the way, he has over 4 million followers on Instagram. He ran a multi-level marketing scheme called Hustlers University 2.0 that promised students it would teach them how to earn wealth by investing in crypto, among other things. It was shut down its affiliate program last week after a ban from Meta went into effect. It's just a Ponzi scheme. This guy's just a grifter, essentially. He's more of a Trump kid than I think some of the other Trump kids are, you know?

Monica Lewinsky: Yes, yeah.

Kara Swisher: If you look at that. He says it's performative in some ways, and he's acting out of part, which, whatever. Stripe allegedly stopped processing payments for his business. These get-rich-quick schemes that have been around since the beginning of time, they just get more amplification on social media. In the case of Price, it's a little more interesting. He allegedly used Instagram DMs, et cetera, for predation on people. It's a very different side of cyberbullying, which is what Tate is doing. But here, you know, he would, people would write something. He'd write something very, like, lovely and something a lot of people might agree with. "Women need more money" or "It's wrong to be mean to women," et cetera. And then they first met him after they said, "Oh, I really appreciate you saying that because, oh, here's a man who understands." Seemingly.

Monica Lewinsky: Seemingly, yes.

Kara Swisher: It's really interesting. Unlike bullying, a lot of this starts as flattery, you know, that you're great and stuff. And then, of course, you misbehave. He's denying all of this, by the way. It's something that really happens to a lot of women. I was watching *Tinder Swindler* on Netflix. Did you ever see that?

Monica Lewinsky: I haven't seen that yet. No.

Kara Swisher: There's a million of them on Netflix. It's always like something like he was a predator, really, in a lot of ways, taking their money, et cetera, et cetera. I never have had that happen to me. Has that happened to you, any of this kind of stuff?

Monica Lewinsky: I've had a few people slide into my DMs, as I think one says.

Kara Swisher: No one slides into my DMs. Nobody slides.

Monica Lewinsky: You're married, Kara. You're a married woman.

Kara Swisher: I get it, but they didn't ever, ever, ever before marriage. I'm just saying. But go ahead.

Monica Lewinsky: You're right. That's fair.

Kara Swisher: They don't even try. I don't know what Amanda would think about that. She slid into my text when we first stayed. But we were introduced on a blind date. Anyway. So has it happened to you? What's that like?

Monica Lewinsky: It has, but it hasn't been... I don't know. Maybe it says something about me. I was flattered by the times that it's happened with the people with whom it's happened and it didn't end up becoming creepy. So I haven't had that creepy thing. But of course, women and LGBTQI groups are the most targeted online for both visible harassment and what happens in DMs. I think a lot of times what can actually happen to some women, even worse than Price, even though what he's done allegedly, is women who are informed that their private nudes have been exposed. This is a way that women get targeted by reputation companies to pay money and have them taken down. So I think this is an unfortunate example of the manipulation that we see. I mean, it happens offline, right? How many times have you had someone pick you up in a... I mean, I don't really go to bars, but when I was younger, you'd go to a bar, you'd meet somebody, you'd think you're going on a date with someone pre-Google. And then it turns out they're not at all who they pretended to be.

Kara Swisher: Never happened to me.

Monica Lewinsky: I do not believe that.

Kara Swisher: Never. Lesbians are much better behaved.

Monica Lewinsky: Never.

Kara Swisher: I have a lot of lesbian friends. I'm going to say I'm not. There's a lot of drama.

Monica Lewinsky: Drama is different.

Kara Swisher: Drama is different. I'm telling you, it never happened to me, Kara. I think people are just scared of me.

Monica Lewinsky: Okay, how old were you when you first got married, though, to your first wife?

Kara Swisher: I was in my 30s.

Monica Lewinsky: In my 30s. Come on, Kara. College Kara.

Kara Swisher: Oh, no, I went out. I went out with ladies in college, but it was very pleasant, except for the drama, except for the typical lesbian drama. But that was because it was all hidden back then, because I'm old Monica. So that's why it was, because it was all furtive. And that was the damaging part of being gay back then. Now, I don't know what it would be like now. Honestly, I don't. I just keep getting married is what happens to me. Anyway, and having children. That's all I keep doing.

Monica Lewinsky: Hey, you and Elon.

Kara Swisher: Elon, that's right. We share the idea that we should have many children.

Monica Lewinsky: I don't, I'm not having 10 children like him, although I probably would.

Kara Swisher: I probably would. Anyway, in any case, it's a really interesting thing that the companies are starting to crack down on this stuff, very visible, with visible people like Tate, for example. They never would have done that a couple of years ago. They just wouldn't have. And he also cherry picked. He stayed on Instagram and Facebook long after his removal from Twitter. Same thing Alex Jones did. He kept on Twitter and then he was banned and then he was banned elsewhere. They like to play games, these people. But I like that they're doing it. I was arguing with someone. They said the First Amendment. I said, "It's like a restaurant. You can't be an asshole in a restaurant. It's an asshole thing, right? We don't want you in our place of business." And I think to explain it like that is a lot better than "You don't get to talk."

Monica Lewinsky: Right, right. I agree. I agree.

Kara Swisher: All right, Monica, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll be talking about the latest on the Trump investigation. And we'll take a listener question about regulating social media.

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Kara Swisher: Monica, we're back with the latest on the Trump investigation. Speaking of double talk, et cetera, triple talk, quadruple talk, political parties continue to spar over the search of Mar-a-Lago while pundits weigh in on the impact on the midterms. A new poll from NBC found that a majority of voters think that Trump investigation should continue. However, the same poll found that a similar majority think that America's best days are behind it.

Monica Lewinsky: One person, that's always the case with Americans.

Kara Swisher: And it's not mutually exclusive.

Monica Lewinsky: Yeah, right. Exactly.

Kara Swisher: One person who might not be looking forward, lame duck representative Liz Cheney. She said last week she's seeing no evidence that the Mar-a-Lago search was politically motivated. Meanwhile, her colleague Dan Crenshaw took the opposite tack, saying there was no evidence that Trump was asked to return the top secret documents. This is not true. I feel bad for Dan Crenshaw, who sort of stepped out Liz Cheney style and then stepped right back in after he got attacked. Here's what he told Jake Tapper. It was a very bad performance on his part, by the way. "It's hard to justify what the Department of Justice did here. I still haven't seen any evidence that Trump was even asked to give these documents back. He's been cooperating with them on these issues for a while now, for months." Obviously, they were in negotiations with him. All the reporting shows that. I feel bad for Dan Crenshaw. I don't know if the question has been asked and just no Republican has answered it. But in terms of the people who think that this is political or was an extreme measure, no one has listed at what point would it have been OK? What was the step that they think the DOJ should have taken that they hadn't already taken? And that's what sort of baffles me. I mean, if you think about that, even from January, when those 15 boxes were returned to August, that's eight months. If it were either of us, it would have been eight hours, if not eight minutes. So this is just fucking bullshit.

Monica Lewinsky: It is. But it's true. He has... And of course, Trump is taking full advantage of this. He's shifting defense so far and it's changed. "They're going to plant evidence" or "They did plant evidence." "Everyone brings work home" and "These documents were declassified." "No one sees any evidence of that." "We're working with the government on returning the documents." "We've been doing that." "The documents protected by attorney-client privilege." He just has one after the next. It's crazy. And he's going to release videos. He's not going to release videos, whatever. But it's just the continued circus. And I think what feels frightening to me about all of this is that we were supposed to be turning the page on Donald Trump by electing Biden. And here we are. He still feels above the fold front page news. He does control the Republican Party in many ways.

Kara Swisher: I know. But I mean, I wonder, do you feel like it's just that Mitch McConnell thinks he's effective or do you think that there is like he has something on Mitch McConnell?

Monica Lewinsky: No, I think that they don't think he's going to get worse. And then he does. Why should he change? At this point, I don't even blame him. He is what he is. He's doing exactly what he's done on every one of these things, whether it's making fun of people with disabilities or the Russia stuff, which is not a hoax. There's a lot going on. Parts of it were overwrought, but other parts, very clearly Russia is trying to destabilize this country and using Trump as the vehicle. This tribalism in American politics, I think they thought he was going to fade away. That's what's troubling. But I think they thought they could handle him. And we heard that before with Hitler, with lots of autocrats. "We can handle them." And they can't. He lies like he breathes. So he's not going to change.

Kara Swisher: I saw Jon Favreau over the weekend and he was making the point that there's going to have to be a moment where the Republicans who are going to want to challenge him for '24 are going to have to say that the election was legitimate. Otherwise, why wouldn't Republicans vote for Trump? Like someone like DeSantis. I thought that was a very interesting point. So I don't know. Maybe we're just playing a time game and that soon we're going to have to see that more. What do you think?

Monica Lewinsky: I think the price Cheney paid is exactly the price you pay for this kind of thing. Again, someone I don't agree with, but nonetheless has stuck with it and is going to continue. Mike Pence seems to be quietly trying to undermine Donald Trump. "I might testify. I gave back my documents. It is wrong to attack the FBI." He's doing it in the most loud way compared to most of them, which is a surprise to me because he was the most obsequious suck-up I've seen for many years. And now he's the most counter. But it's all political.

Kara Swisher: Right. So, I mean, at least I feel in some ways, and I think Liz Cheney deserves credit for how she's worked on the January 6th committee. I was very dismissive of that before it started, and I've been incredibly impressed with what they've done. But I think that it feels about our democracy and less political in some ways. Whereas anybody who wants to be a candidate in '24, it's just political. It doesn't quite feel about the democracy in the same way.

Monica Lewinsky: Well, they do want to live. My money's on someone like Liz Cheney. She's never given up. She's just not given up. She's a persistent woman. She's on a very interesting journey.

Kara Swisher: Well, you know, even if you disagreed with her, her journey has been... But I think most of these men just want to hold on to power. That's pretty much it. Anyway, now we're going to get to a listener question. You've got mail. This one comes from Matt via email. I'll read it and it's perfect for you, Monica. "Do either of you think there needs to be a regulatory body to evaluate the physical and mental health effects of new technologies apart from the Food and Drug Administration? After the revelations of Instagram's negative, if not lethal, impact on mental health, I wonder what other technologies, platforms, etc., may be doing the equivalent harm as that of tobacco or other highly regulated and scrutinized products. Best, Matt." Monica, you did a whole documentary. What do you think about this?

Monica Lewinsky: I agree a bajillion percent with Matt. I think that we are behind in having some sort of governmental body that is examining these things, not only being aware of what's happening and what's being developed and how things are changing or being used in different ways, but also how to communicate best practice. I felt this way in general about mental health. I wrote a piece last year for *Vanity Fair* advocating for a counterpart to Dr. Fauci for mental health during the pandemic, that there was nobody who was telling us the best practices for our mental health during that point. I think we're going to continue to see difficulties coming out of the pandemic, the damage.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it is. I did an interview with Marc Benioff and he talked about them like cigarette companies. That's how he described them many years ago, which I thought was interesting. I would say that I'm not sure if I want a government administration to do this, but there are bills in Congress about algorithmic transparency and the product choices they make. I just was talking with Frances Haugen yesterday, who is the Facebook whistleblower. And the things that are here are different from what's happening back here was her point. The design choices, how they make it, needs to be much more transparent so you understand what goes into it and what the results are. Algorithmic transparency and data transparency of what happens and how they move people. If you're looking up healthy recipes, how you get to pro-anorexia sites and things like that. Or bullying, same thing, how you get from one place to the next. But I also think that transparency is helpful to an intelligent population. People who, once we've had more transparency about ingredients, people who care about health have now stopped using products, but that doesn't mean that there aren't still 20 ounce sodas and all of those things.

Monica Lewinsky: Going back to the government body of that, and this was in *15 Minutes of Shame*, we looked at Australia. Australia has a really wonderful program that has been developed by and is funded by the government that is looking at these issues that came out of child protection laws online. So I think that while they're looking more at harassment and protecting people online, I do think that there can be ways government gets involved. Mental health is such an anathema to talk about on a governmental level. One of the stumbling blocks is that we're not a very preventative society. Focusing on mental health really is about being more preventative of what happens. Even sometimes, the simple example of someone who's suffering living on the streets, to acknowledge their dignity for a moment could impact them not lashing out later at someone else on the street.

Kara Swisher: I'm not sure it's a good example.

Monica Lewinsky: No, it's 100%.

Kara Swisher: One of the things that's interesting about that is if you start to study, we all know magazines and movies impacted how women feel about themselves. The messages coming through. There was a great movie about gay people, of how they're portrayed in the media. And what we couldn't make the links between those, you can see them and it's not anecdotal. You can see "gay people are all horrible" or "they're predators" or "they kill themselves," or "women are this way" or "they want to have a man this way." Whatever the messages media is sending you, or the fashion magazines that make everybody feel ugly because they don't look like that. We understand that on a very visceral level. Now we can prove it with online. Now we can. So why wouldn't you want to see that data and how it affects people? But I think these companies don't want people to see it because it's more damaging. If it was done that we don't blame them for it, but then what are the best practices they can use in design is something that would be very important. Matt, this is a great question. Anything else, Monica, last word?

Monica Lewinsky: No, I just think it would be great if we could find ways to bake in better mental health practices into technology, into social media. So yes, I agree. Good question, Matt.

Kara Swisher: I'm using a bunch of different new devices. There's one called Apollo. It puts on your leg and it hums at you. And I feel better.

Monica Lewinsky: Okay, yeah, because I've been thinking about that because I do somatic therapy. And so that's supposed to help your vagus nerve.

Kara Swisher: I guess, I don't know. I just feel better. It's like someone touching your hair. You know how you feel better? My daughter always fixes my hair and I'm always happy. I don't know what it is. There's something like the nerve endings and she's just going like this. Even things like color, certain colors can lead you to a mood or to a state, activating different parts of your brain from color or font or those kinds of things. Technology can do all this in a good way. Happy technology. All right, Monica, one more quick break. Matt, thanks for your question. We'll be back for predictions.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Monica, let's hear some predictions. Do you got any?

Monica Lewinsky: Well, yes, a few. So as a fan of the Pivot podcast, my first prediction is that you, Kara, will not make a prediction.

Kara Swisher: I do. That is a good prediction.

Monica Lewinsky: My prediction is that we will see a lot of Gen Xers going to AMC theaters to see *Grease*, that they are re-releasing in the theater in tribute to Olivia Newton-John. Having been embarrassingly in kindergarten when *Grease* was out, I was obsessed with that, which probably should have been a first alarm that there was something wrong with me.

Kara Swisher: I knew there was.

Monica Lewinsky: It's a wonderful movie.

Kara Swisher: Six years. Yes, but, you know, like six years old. I'm not sure. But whatever.

Monica Lewinsky: Yeah, that's not appropriate.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky: But I was obsessed with that film. And so I think it's great that it's out there.

Kara Swisher: Wait, are you Sandy or Rizzo?

Monica Lewinsky: Yeah, Sandy. I mean, that was sort of... But I think that this might not surprise a lot of people. I think I was more Sandy at the end. Like, I really actually was more Sandy throughout the movie, but I wanted to be Sandy at the end. So I have therapy after this, so I'm going to discuss that with my therapist.

Kara Swisher: Yes. Okay. So wearing that outfit she wore.

Monica Lewinsky: I was horrified. I was shocked by that outfit.

Kara Swisher: Oh, my God. I was like, "Go back to Sandy."

Monica Lewinsky: No, no. I loved that outfit and the curly hair and the red lipstick and the sort of... So, but also I think I identified with just even you think, remember back those first moments where she's sort of teetering in the heels and not quite sure of how to embody that identity. That's how I sort of feel trying to...

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: What do you think happened to them after they drove from the car into the clouds, essentially?

Monica Lewinsky: I would like *After Grease*.

Kara Swisher: That's a great idea.

Monica Lewinsky: I know. There you go, Monica, for your production.

Kara Swisher: Exactly. *After Grease*. What happened?

Monica Lewinsky: I think that they probably either... Broke up.

Kara Swisher: You think they eventually broke up because that happened so much to high school sweethearts. And he sort of discovered she was wearing a pushup bra and, you know, I don't know.

Monica Lewinsky: Yeah. But I also, in a serious prediction way, I am very curious to see what's going to happen if they release part of the memo, the DOJ memo.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky: So I think that that's... I feel torn because I'm curious, but I also feel that part of the tacit agreement we make in having these kinds of things be classified or under seal is that it's trying to protect certain amounts of information.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, well, someone who suffered with leaks, right? These are governments.

Monica Lewinsky: Right, exactly. Exactly. So I think that there is an element with all of this where I think and how I felt with some of WikiLeaks and those other things that I get to wake up every morning and not worry about all the threats, not knowing about all the threats that are out in the world. But that comes with having to trust the government that they're going to classify and keep secret different things to do that.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. They'll spin it no matter what. But back to Sandy.

Monica Lewinsky: Back to Sandy. *After Grease*.

Kara Swisher: You know what, we'll have Clara watch it with you. Okay, guess what we watched this weekend? *Beauty and the Beast* and then the live action one, which was quite good actually.

Monica Lewinsky: The live action one was very good.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Have *Frozen*, of course. Are you kidding? You know what I use it for? I'll tell you. People hate that "Let It Go" song, although it's a great song. It's like the *Wicked* song. The one that's in *Wicked*, the same similar kind of song. But I use it now because she's potty training and I sing it to her every morning when I'm trying to get her to pee. I go, "Let it flow, let it flow." And she thinks it's hysterical. And then she literally pees on cue. It's the best thing ever. Thank you, Disney. Thank you, Bob Iger.

Monica Lewinsky: I know. That's amazing. You can use it anytime you need that.

Kara Swisher: Okay. Anyway, Monica, that's a great prediction. I will not make a prediction. You're right. But you're playing Scott. And I have to say a much more charming version of him.

Monica Lewinsky: Oh, well, thank you.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, Monica, thank you so much. And I'm going to read us out. Thank you for your questions. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Monica, that is the show as usual. You're a classy dame, as I always say.

Monica Lewinsky: Thank you, Kara. Classy dame. Love seeing you.

Kara Swisher: Love seeing you. And I'll see you in Los Angeles soon. We'll be back on Friday for more. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. And again, Monica, thank you very much.

Monica Lewinsky: Thanks, Kara.