Elon Threatens to Walk, TikTok's Fave CPA, Krystal Todd, and more.

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway: And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher: Scott, there's a lot that's gone on this weekend. Did you have a good weekend?

Scott Galloway: Oh, I had a really nice weekend. Did you?

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Really nice. A lot of time with the boys.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, it was really nice. How about yours?

Kara Swisher: I went to my nephew's wedding, Chris. I'm going to give a call out to him and Eleanor. It was lovely. It was a Swisher Fest. But by the end, my son Alex was like, "That's enough Swishers for me for a little while." Because I kept asking him how tall he was. He couldn't believe how tall he was. "Last time I saw you, you were this high," kind of thing. So I got a little bored with that. And then the questions about college and stuff like that. But otherwise, it was a lovely—it was in Larchmont, New York, by the ocean, right across from where I grew up, which was interesting on Long Island, which was kind of ironic in some ways. Yeah, it was good. It was a nice wedding. Congratulations to Chris and Eleanor.

Scott Galloway: Good. It was a gorgeous wedding.

Kara Swisher: It was very lovely. It was very lovely.

Scott Galloway: That's nice. They had his and hers drinks.

Kara Swisher: His and hers drinks. Yeah.

Scott Galloway: And that says a lot about who you are. What were their respective drinks? And I'll tell you something about each of their personalities.

Kara Swisher: One was a Negroni of some sort. His was a Negroni.

Scott Galloway: Okay, so he's a little bit fancy. He's a little bit fancy.

Kara Swisher: All right, okay. And hers was some sort of gin fizz kind of thing.

Scott Galloway: Gin fizz. Oh, well, I know she's white. That's the first thing. She probably went to a prestigious school.

Kara Swisher: Yes, she did, yeah.

Scott Galloway: Oh, my God. Yeah, gin fizz. Hello, boom. What's your drink? We have our drinks.

Kara Swisher: Mine is now non-alcoholic.

Scott Galloway: Okay, I'm the cop and coke. Which says that I like to think I'm successful, but you can't take the boy out of the trailer park. No, let's ruin that fine rub with Atlanta champagne. Whenever I did a blog post talking about that I drink Sacapa and Coke, true rum drinkers are literally horrified. They're literally horrified that I take Sacapa and I throw it. You're not even supposed to put ice in a good rum.

Kara Swisher: No, you're not because it's expensive.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, so you take very expensive liquor and ice it up, right?

Kara Swisher: No, I take a beautiful home and I decorate it like I'm Trump.

Scott Galloway: You trash it.

Kara Swisher: Well, one of the interesting things is they had some champagne. It was actually Spumante. It was white wine that goes to the bottom of the ocean, and that's where they chill it for a while.

Scott Galloway: What?

Kara Swisher: And then it gets covered with crab poop or whatever. I don't know. The bottle does. And it came out like that, and then they put CO2 in it. It was delicious. The whole thing was very nice. It was a lovely evening.

Scott Galloway: Okay, then. Okay. Gin fizz. Congratulations to them. I hope they have a lovely, lovely life.

Kara Swisher: Well, he's a doctor. She's a nurse. She's about to be a nurse practitioner. It's a very service-oriented couple. Anyway, so today, speaking of not service-oriented, Elon Musk will be walking away from the Twitter deal, he says. He may be. Who knows? Who's to say? It's the same noise that he's been making for a while. We'll preview some news coming out of the January 6th committee, which relies a lot on communications over social media, et cetera. We'll also speak with Crystal Todd, a CPA who's teaching the basics of personal finance on TikTok. And she cracks me up. That's why we have her here. But first, I'd like to get this out of the way. I wrote a column about Sheryl Sandberg last week. The Journal had a story which I didn't think was – I think it's going nowhere. It was under investigation at Meta as recently as May. Looked into her use of corporate resources to plan her upcoming wedding. A spokesman for Meta says Sandberg's decision to leave is not connected to the probe. And meanwhile, Francis Haugen says the company will only recover if Zuckerberg steps down. Go for it, Francis. It said there was an investigation, but not many details. I find this to be a nothing burger, but maybe I'm incorrect.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I find it unusual to be in a position of defending Sheryl Sandberg. There's two things here. One, I think this is bullshit. I think it's gossip. I think they found something. It was probably, and again, pure conjecture, someone probably complained that she was using company resources to plan her wedding and they feel an obligation to, quote unquote, investigate it, which might mean just one person finding out that, OK, Cheryl, you owe us a couple hundred bucks for using this company resource, whatever. I just don't think she's that dumb.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, she's very tight. And she runs things like a tight ship. If you ever go to her house, you'll see she never misses a trick, I'll tell you. But I just find this gossipy and clickbait. I think there are much bigger issues around Sheryl Sandberg's behavior at Meta. What I did not like was she immediately said – or not immediately, but it's been reported that she sees herself as someone who has been targeted and been tarred as a woman executive in a way that would not happen to a man. And I would argue, OK, that might be true for a lot of female executives, but she has leaned in to the whole "I am woman, hear me roar." And I believe that she has actually been given more courtesy because of her gender than—

Scott Galloway: I am on the opposite side. I'm not necessarily fully on Cheryl's side, but as you know, I think that he deserves more of the attention and she gets an enormous amount of flack deserved for him.

Kara Swisher: That's true.

Scott Galloway: And Nick Clegg will not last. His lies will age faster because he is not a woman leaning into the important discussion around gender balance in the workplace. It's like you can't have it both ways, Kara.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I agree. I would agree. But I think that people don't look at this Amber Heard thing. If you look at the British case, wow, does he look guilty there. And it was a judge. And here's a jury. And it was a popularity contest on social media. She's not the loveliest lady. And she's a lot of trouble. But it seems like the outsized reaction is crazy. He seems like a lot. And if you read the British stuff, it's pretty severe, actually. So I don't know. I just feel like there's a lot of people that love to hate on a woman more than hating on a man. They just do.

Scott Galloway: I think that's right. The Heard-Depp case for me is like the really, really freaky porn I've just said. Probably better if you don't pay attention to it. That's correct. I just don't watch. I've taken pride in trying to totally ignore all stories and reporting around Depp and Heard. I just – there's just better places for my attention. So I am woefully and gratefully uninformed about the case.

Kara Swisher: Right. Well, let's go – besides Sandberg in this case, look, it's going nowhere. That's really the point. They're going to find nothing. They may find a small thing. Trying to embarrass her on the way out.

Scott Galloway: Yes, I would agree.

Kara Swisher: In this case, Francis Haugen's idea that Mark Zuckerberg will step down or should step down and that company will not recover if he doesn't. What do you think about that? I mean, obviously, Francis, that's not an unusual thing for Francis to say, but what is your feeling?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, and Musk shouldn't be the CEO of three companies. I couldn't agree more with her. She couldn't be more right, and it's not going to happen. There's dual-class shareholder status. He controls the company. He's made a lot of people very wealthy, and he controls the board. Anyone who thoughtfully pushed back or tried to coach him or say, "You know, this might be bad for the world," left the board. So he surrounded himself with a group of people that just agree with him or eventually fired. Any kind of company he acquired where there was a quote-unquote real leader, eventually the deal was "Here's hundreds of millions of dollars. You've been sidelined. Go away."

Kara Swisher: With rancor. I would say with rancor actually. It's an unusual thing to be given that much money and the people that leave really don't like it. Anyway.

Scott Galloway: But he's, look, she's right, but that's not, I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think he's going to wake up one morning and suddenly realize that maybe I don't have the skills or the empathy to be controlling something this powerful. I just don't, yeah.

Kara Swisher: Wouldn't that be nice? I thought he had the chance when they renamed it or something else to be, as you know, I wrote about it, to become, it was one of those. Remember, in the piece I wrote about Sam Murray, there were a lot of exits for her at various times, and she didn't take them. She just kept going down the highway. He has had several opportunities for an exit and has not taken them. And go upstairs, become the chairman, be the pontificator like Gates did, kind of in chief, and talk about the future, write a book maybe. But he has not taken it. He's very young, obviously. But he certainly is going to hold on to power here, Francis. I don't think there's any way.

Scott Galloway: This is OK. Granted, this is armchair psychology. But I think that with Sheryl Sandberg, this was part of the journey. "I'll make a couple billion bucks. I'll create global awareness. I'll be seen as the female executive empowering people. And then I will run for governor and then president." I think Mark Zuckerberg is at the destination. I don't think he has any desire to do anything else but run, but have everybody, not two billion people but have six billion people all glued to an environment that he can run Nissan ads against and just become wealthier and wealthier. This is the ends, not the means. And I think what happened with Cheryl, and I'm curious because you know her, I don't. This is what I think happened. I think when shit started getting ugly for Cheryl, she thought, "Well, I'll wait. This is cyclical, not structural. I'll wait."

Kara Swisher: She said it to Steve Levy, yeah.

Scott Galloway: "I'll wait till my things calm down. I'll wait till I have a few public wins. My reputation is restored. Then I will punch out." And here's the thing. It never happened. As we kept peeling the onion back, as time went on, as the clock kept ticking, it appeared that her decisions and her cover-ups and her delay in obfuscation only became more brazen, more disingenuous, and more damaging. And so she just never got that moment to leave on a high note.

Kara Swisher: She did not. She talked about that publicly with Stephen Levy, the idea that she was waiting for a moment. There were lots of moments, though, as I noted. In any case, speaking of departing executives, another one, Amazon, this is a big one, Amazon's consumer CEO, Dave Clark, who's been there for a long time, resigned last week with reports of tension with his boss, Andy Jassy. This is a big move by Andy Jassy. It's sort of when Tim Cook let go someone who was very close, I can't remember his name anymore, but there was a big executive move at Apple right around this time of Tim Cook's tenure. Under Clark's leadership, Amazon warehouses have overexpanded and workers voted to unionize. So he has sort of the hardest job at the company. And so obviously, Jassy, who had been focused over at AWS and other places, is showing his teeth here, which is interesting.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I take the other side of this. I think David Clark is arguably one of the most talented executives in the world. I think if you look at his ability to stay out of the limelight and just execute, I mean, who has executed better? He has been in controversy, but go ahead.

Kara Swisher: Go ahead. Who has executed better? What operating executive has operated better? You could argue maybe Andy Jassy, head of AWS, who's number two likely in the world globally? The guy or gal who ran consumer for Amazon. So this is what is going to happen. David Clark is about to announce a big fucking job. He's still young. He's arguably one of the two or three most talented operating executives in the world. So I can't imagine a phone that is ringing louder and more often than David Clark.

Scott Galloway: Absolutely. I don't think that's the case, but I think he was one of the possible contenders. And this is what happens. It happened at Disney. And it happened at Apple. This is what happens. There's a lot of number twos running around at most of these companies. And it's been a tougher road for Dave Clark recently, let's just say. But nonetheless, of course, he's obviously a competent executive. But he will definitely be running. What do you think he could run? He could run. But anyway, Andy Jassy has to put his people in place, in other words.

Scott Galloway: In most cases, you're right. When all the number twos wake up and look in the mirror and say, "Hello, number one." And then when they find out they're not going to be the number one when there's a shift, they decide, "I'll go be number one somewhere else." And that's actually a good thing. These are talented people. Companies are meant to plant other acorns of trees of which the shade we will never sit under. But anyways, the question isn't what could he run. The question is what couldn't he run? He's also very wealthy, let's be clear. He's been there for a long time, as have most of the executives at Amazon. Andy started very young, so did Dave.

Kara Swisher: I mean, I think it's an interesting question. I mean, a logistics company, any of them, he could run. It's a question of what he wants to do, I guess.

Scott Galloway: That's exactly right. But look for a guy like that. There isn't a board in the world that says, "Oh, no, we wouldn't want that guy to run our company." Walmart, Target.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I mean, he could. He's looking for him. Yeah. So he's going to have a very big, I don't know him personally. So as far as I know, he wants to take a breather.

Scott Galloway: I doubt it. I find that these individuals really like to work and they get huge reward out of it. Unfortunately, a lot of us, and I think this is true of you, our identity is largely tied to our professional endeavors. So I think his exit is much less interesting than where he's going to pop up as CEO.

Kara Swisher: All right. Well, we'll see where that is. In any case, it'll be interesting to see if there's other ones leaving at Amazon. There's Dave Lamp who does. There's a bunch of people there. Anyway, Coinbase also rescinded job offers that had gone out to prospective employees as it extended its hiring freeze. That must be a cold drink of water for people when that happens. Has that ever happened to you?

Scott Galloway: Never happened to me. It happened when I graduated from business school in 1992. Get this. So at Stern right now, the average kid gets an average number of five or six offers. And get this, the average salary of a Stern grad this year. Don't tell me the average salary.

Kara Swisher: 150?

Scott Galloway: The average starting salary with sign-on bonus for Stern MBA hit one hundred and eighty-two thousand dollars this past year. And supposedly it's going to be over 200 this year when they do the math.

Kara Swisher: Wow. That's a lot.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. When I graduated from the Haas school. Now, get this, back in '92 in the middle of a recession, 60% of us had zero job offers on the day of graduation. And then what happened is, I mean, you never know what's going to happen. One of the most talented people I've ever worked with, a woman named Maureen Mullen in 2008, I don't think I'm, 2009, I don't think I'm speaking out of school. She kept having her offer from a consulting firm delayed. And I said, "You're amazing. Help me start this firm called L2. Keep working." "Oh, it's been delayed six months." "Keep working." And then finally I said, "Come on. They're fucking with you. Stop it. Join us full time." And she agreed. But this happens. Rescission among a firm that, quite frankly, is going to be really challenged and could potentially go to zero. As you said, by the way, you were the one on Coinbase saying it's no needed, especially if there was a pullback.

Kara Swisher: Well, the stock's gone from – it hit 400 on the day of the IPO. It's now, what, 50 or something? Anyways, and it's had to disclose, which is really weird, that this is not a safe place to store your crypto. That if we go bankrupt, our creditors have access to your tokens. It's not like a bank where if the bank goes under, your deposits are guaranteed.

Scott Galloway: And I should disclose, I'm an investor and on the board of a company called Ledger, which is cold storage. And we have seen our business uptick as a function of people wanting their assets to be somewhere they think is safe and can't be seized by creditors. Anyways, Coinbase is in a world of hurt, but Coinbase is not alone. Coinbase is one of a cadre of companies, hundreds of companies, where their SG&A has exploded and the revenues have gone up, but not as much as their SG&A. And then when you see the kind of drawdown in market cap, they need to rethink everything, including their spending. And the majority of expenses isn't R&D. It isn't office space. It's people. And so they're – I would argue they're the first ones out of Vietnam, the ones who had their offers rescinded. They go get a job somewhere else because if you got a job at Coinbase, it probably means you're pretty talented and you have a lot of options. They're going to be fine. It's much better to have that happen than to go there for two years and find out it's not working out.

Kara Swisher: We will see. They were certainly flying high. The CEO was having dinners, those thought dinners. That's always a bad sign for me when CEOs have thought dinners.

Scott Galloway: You mean when they come to New York and you get a call from a PR executive saying that they want to share their vision of the world with you? And your vision. And they want to get your input?

Kara Swisher: I did that for the shortest time. So they've been inviting you to an intimate dinner to share it because they love your work. And it's like, okay, this is called a speaking engagement. You need to pay me a shit ton of money. I'd rather hang out with my boys. I used to do it a long time ago for sourcing, but now I'm like, no fucking way. It's literally like, why would I want to hang out with this guy? Seriously. What gave you the impression I have any desire to hang out with this individual? Is there a celebrity? If there's a celebrity, sometimes I do it. Anyway, let's get to our first speaking of celebrities, celebrity CEOs. Our first big story. Surprise, surprise. Elon Musk is threatening to walk away from the Twitter deal again. This is like, "I'm going to break up. Really, this time I'm going to break up with you." In a letter on Monday, Musk said he wants more information on the number of bots and fake accounts on the platform and accused Twitter of withholding data. Twitter doesn't have to give him anything. Musk first paused the deal on May 13th. We didn't pause it. There's no such thing. Let's see what we said back then. "As of now, this deal is off. It makes absolutely no sense for Elon Musk. Can he just sit and wait and then reprice or not? That's the correct question. For a billion dollars, he has six months to kind of see what happens." All right. So we have said that. Bill Cohen has talked about this. He's got time. He can drag this out forever, and he has like six months and then beyond that. Another six months, apparently. So what thinks you of this latest filing?

Scott Galloway: Yeah. To me, it seems obvious what's going on. So I'll give you a brief history of what I think is the obvious. Most teenage boys up until the age of 25 or 21, their prefrontal cortex does not evolve, does not fully mature, and they have very poor impulse control. And there's been a lot of news about how negative and damaging and destructive that can be to our society. What people also don't talk about is the reason why we put 19-year-olds in uniform is that lack of impulse control means they're much more likely to engage in acts of heroism. They're much more likely to take a bullet and then keep running into the field to save their brothers and sisters in arms. They're much more likely to random acts of generosity. An immature prefrontal cortex kind of describes, in my view, Elon Musk's approach to Twitter. And that is "I love Twitter. I'm just going to buy it. I'm the richest man in the world. I'm going to pay $45 billion for it. I'm going to back the board into a corner. They know it's not worth this much."

Kara Swisher: Yeah. They agree. Bill said he played it perfectly the first part.

Scott Galloway: But the board said, "All right, you have trouble with impulse control. We're going to make you sign a hermetically sealed agreement that includes your agreement in a legal document that you signed and had all your $1,200 an hour lawyer's review that you waive rights to diligence. You waive all rights." And then what happens? The market goes down. The stock that was guaranteeing his massive equity investment that he would have to borrow against goes down. And all of a sudden he realizes this is a $22 stock that I have agreed to pay $54.24. Okay, bad idea in my stock, the golden goose of Tesla is down 30%. "Get me the fuck out of Dodge. I thought Vietnam was going to be weekends in Bangkok and bonding with my brothers and serving my country. And I found out this is not what I signed up for. I am disillusioned. Get me out of here." And he said to his lawyers. Or he could be.

Kara Swisher: All right. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway: And he said to his lawyers, "Find a reason, any reason to get me out of this deal." And they said, "OK, the only thing we can come up with is if you can credibly claim they have made false statements in their SEC filings because that is a general condition of closing, that they haven't lied in SEC filings." And they said the only thing that might hold water is that they have said that less than approximately 5% of their accounts are bots. That is probably not true. Now, distinct to the fact that you knew that, distinct to the fact that you have weaponized these bots to artificially increase your share price, distinct to the fact that you use these bots to attack your detractors, you should put out cloud cover to say that, "Oh my gosh, there's more than 5% bots." And they said there wasn't.

Kara Swisher: All right. I'm going to cut you off now. All right. So, land it. Land the plane, Scott.

Scott Galloway: He's full of shit.

Kara Swisher: He's full of shit. Okay. Thank you.

Scott Galloway: He's full of shit. He wants out.

Kara Swisher: Does he want out or does he want another price? Maybe he's not getting the price he wants.

Scott Galloway: There is no other price, Kara, because even this board can't agree to another price because is there a deal with Elon Musk means nothing? Nothing.

Kara Swisher: Well, Bill had noted that they could ask for a much bigger breakup fee. If they get a $10 billion breakup fee, they'll let him negotiate down to 45 bucks a share.

Scott Galloway: He's not going to do it. He doesn't want a lower fee. You know what fee he wants? "Get me the fuck out of here." That's the lower price he wants. And he's now just trying to create cloud cover for what is going to be a legal battle and some sort of breakup fee. This is the beginning of a negotiation.

Kara Swisher: He's really grown tiresome on Twitter, too. He overdid this one, I have to say. His diehard fans will love it. But the stock of Tesla continues to be low. It's not as low as it was. It was at 628. It's at 704 now. It's actually held up pretty well. All things considered, it's held up well.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, 704 now.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it went down there for a minute in scary territory. People tell me it had to get down to 400 before it got really frightening for him. Twitter's down today, but it's in the 30s, 39, close to 40. In any case, we'll see what happens. So, by the way, Musk told executives that Tesla needed to lay off 10% of its workforce because he had a super bad feeling, whatever that is from an economic point of view. He later clarified that he meant salaried employees only and expects to grow the number of hourly workers, which are factory workers. There's probably a huge demand for Tesla still, despite all the new cars coming. By the way, I saw the new BMW. It's gorgeous. I wouldn't buy it still, but it's nonetheless fantastic.

Scott Galloway: That's a cool car. You would never buy that car.

Kara Swisher: The BMW electric one? The electric one looks like a very pleasant car to drive.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I don't see you in a BMW. That's just way too cool a car.

Kara Swisher: I love my Kia. Love the Kia. Love the family Kia. And the minute I can get rid of it, I will.

Scott Galloway: I see you in a Mazda. That's your brand.

Kara Swisher: I had a Mazda. See? There you go. I had a Mazda 3. There you go. Stick shift. Turbo. I did. I liked it.

Scott Galloway: Turbo Mazda. I had a Turbo Mazda. Oh, my God. That's like me wearing cologne. It just doesn't matter.

Kara Swisher: My high school boyfriend taught me how to drive with a shift car, and I've loved it ever since.

Scott Galloway: I am going to resist the temptation to say anything about any of that.

Kara Swisher: He did. Chris Price. Hi, Chris. How you doing? He was so nice. By the way, my eighth grade boyfriend's marrying one of my best friends from grammar in high school.

Scott Galloway: You had a boyfriend in the eighth grade?

Kara Swisher: Yes, I did. Chris Keeney.

Scott Galloway: I like the Chris. I like the Chris name. Jesus.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, I remember all their names, which is weird because there's so few of them. But actually, there weren't that many few. So in any case, super bad feeling about the economy, salaried employees. This was another kind of screw up a little bit around that. People were sort of scratching their head about his mouthing off once again.

Scott Galloway: First off, I mean, you got to admire – I'll give him this. Okay, again, goes back to that lack of impulse control. The transparency is great, but as a CEO, you're not transparent about upcoming layoffs because all it does is create unnecessary stress and anxiety where everyone walks around and thinks, "Am I part of this 10% that's about to be fired?" And most likely makes them more apt to return the calls of headhunters saying, "Do you want to come work on the new Pontiac Leaf or something?" Right? So it's not a smart idea. Now, what was worse in my view, again, see above full of shit, was he then decided to say that, "OK, if you don't come into the office, don't bother showing up." I think this is nothing but thinly veiled cloud cover to say "I'm about to lay off 10 percent of the workforce and I'd rather not pay severance." That, OK, me saying this will shed about five or 10 percent because supposedly a third of people under the age of 30 say they would look for another job if they had to come into the office. I think this is his way of saying I don't – I don't think all of a sudden he's woken up and decided he doesn't like remote work. I think it's like, "You know what, I'd rather not pay severance because if you're paying $50,000 per employee in severance and you got to lay off 10,000 people, 10 percent of your workforce. That's a lot of money. That's half a billion dollars in upcoming severance payments."

Kara Swisher: Yeah. So, yeah, he's trying to make trouble. He's shaking the tree.

Scott Galloway: There you go. Shaking the tree. That's what he's doing.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, by the way, there were new reports that Tesla hired a PR firm to monitor employee Facebook group in 2018 as several employees push for unionization. They all do it. In any case, Elon, clam down, as they say at IVAR's in Seattle, clam down. He's got to clam down. And anyway, so we'll see what happens. But basically, Scott says, full of shit, correct? Am I correctly translating your –

Scott Galloway: No, I think he's very transparent here except all of his sycophants. So a guy named John Najarian who's on CNBC a lot, I actually think he's a really thoughtful – I love listening to him. He and his brothers are both investors and options guys, and I just like hearing them think. He said on Twitter, Scott, I said this is – I put out snarkily. "Nonsense. Dear bots, artificially pump my stock price, attack my detractors, now get me out of this deal." What I'm saying is basically I'm going to use this as a red herring for why I want out of this deal. And he said, "Scott, if you bought a house and you found out that there was radon in the basement, you're not obligated to close." That's a fair point, except this is like buying a house where you waive all rights for – you waive all – no contingencies. You waive all rights of inspection and you sign an agreement saying "I'm showing up." So even if there's a meth lab in the basement, you have to show up to close.

Kara Swisher: I think if they lie – if you can prove they lied about it, you can get out of things like that. I believe that's the case in houses. People know it to me.

Scott Galloway: Well, if they misrepresented themselves.

Kara Swisher: Did you see that episode of Breaking Bad, by the way? That's an episode of Breaking Bad. Jesse's parents didn't disclose it was a meth lab. Oddly enough, at the wedding, they discussed Breaking Bad endlessly. My brother loves it and his wife loves it.

Scott Galloway: Best TV show in history. Maybe with the exception of The Sopranos.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, revelations about the January 6th are incoming. We'll speak with a friend of Pivot also about spreading financial literacy over TikTok. I'm very excited about this.

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Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back. The January 6th committee will host its first public hearings this week. It's already making news. One big reveal: Mike Pence's chief of staff worried for his boss's safety ahead of January 6th. The vice president's top aide told the Secret Service that Trump could turn on Pence and could put the vice president in danger. The committee has enlisted former ABC News president James Goldston to produce Thursday night's hearing. There's going to be a huge boom on social media around this with a mix of live testimony and pre-produced video. They are going for it, as they say. It's been 500 days since the insurrection. Is there still enough anger for the news to make an impact? I got to say, there were a lot of conservative people at this wedding I was at, and they could care less. They don't care. They don't care. But over 800 people have been charged with crimes relating to January 6th. The most serious charge as yet is seditious conspiracy for the leaders of the Oath Keepers. So what is the point of this, and how should they, from a marketing point of view—I hate to boil it down to that—how do they get people's attention when people don't seem to care enough? They should. It's terrifying.

Scott Galloway: Well, that's the problem. Sheryl Sandberg's exit, or more important news, gets pushed down by the H.E.R.D. debt trial. A decent strategy is to slowball the whole thing. The further people move away from something, the less angry they get. So what you hope comes from this—and by the way, I think they're smart. Whenever you have people ranging from Jamie Raskin to Liz Cheney agreeing on something, it's an important moment. I think they're getting very savvy at it. They're going to produce the hearing. They're going to make it more MTV or TikTok-y. They're learning. The hope is that they immediately move to some sort of legislation while there's some momentum. I personally believe the electoral college should be abandoned. Liz Cheney won't go for that because she benefits from the fact there are two senators representing a state that has fewer people than most cities. But when you think about how we would actually affect the change, when Trump tried to rig the election, he wanted to replace the electors. Send new people. Send different people who are loyal to me and will lie. So I think what would be productive here is not anger or embarrassing anybody. The FBI and the DOJ are doing their job and putting people in prison who broke laws. What you hope comes out of this is that we start to look at gerrymandering and how antiquated the electoral college is. My view at the end of the day, I know there's a good argument, but if you win the popular vote, you should win the presidency. The notion that we start in Iowa, the notion that we start in states that over-index on white people and older people, I think has been damaging our nation. I hope this immediately moves to propose legislation to rethink how we elect our leaders and how we have gotten to minority rule. Your thoughts?

Kara Swisher: Absent of that, which is never going to happen until we have some sort of civil war, I hate to tell you. I'm dreaming. How do you produce this? There's got to be a lot of social media, a lot of reveals, big reveals. You've seen Liz Cheney out there giving interviews. She's a very active tweeter and quite good at it. Raskin, Schiff, stuff like that. And then of course, the Trump people have counter-programming that's going to go on during this time, especially on social media. One hopes that they understand the power of social media here over networks. That's the thing I worry about. That's what happened with the Johnny Depp trial—it was all social media that impacted the trial. Do you think they understand that?

Scott Galloway: I don't know. Have the ranking member slap or assault the chair of the committee? Look, what they do is they produce the thing and then they take as many sound bites as they can. They cook it. They create some manufactured moments and they turn to social media where most of our attention is. They try to get people motivated and upset enough, and they remind them of just how outrageous it was, how embarrassing a moment this was, how much moral authority our nation lost, what a stain on the history of this country that day was. That hopefully ignites enough emotion such that we can have real change. But it's all about production, and it's all about slicing and dicing and putting it on social media.

Kara Swisher: I think they have to. I think they have to make this as shocking as possible. The issue is how shocking is it? Trump is supposedly going to announce his bid for president as early as summer. That was one report. He's a shameless man, so of course he's going to do this. But I think he's better at counter-programming. It just works to exhaust people. Exhausting people is their best tool. I was at this wedding. I was like, "Well, it didn't happen." I'm like, "Yeah, but it almost did." And they're like, "Yeah, but it didn't. Move on. Let's move on." And I was like, "What?" A cousin of mine who happens to be gay was like, "Trump's not anti-gay himself." I'm like, "Yeah, but all his friends are. Those policies are anti-gay." People are coming out of COVID. They don't want to get sucked into partisanship. I worry that it has to be an announcement so shocking. And even then, we're in such a shockable society. It's like the Truman Show. What's on TV next? I worry that this is going to win. Although a January 2022 poll found about 40 percent of Republicans approve of the committee. But there's going to be so much counter-programming. They've got to be careful dealing with that.

Scott Galloway: Look, think about Donald Trump and Elon Musk. Neither would be president or the wealthiest man in the world if they hadn't done what is key to disproportionately advancing your interest and your wealth faster than inflation or your competitive group. They leaned in and became masters at an emerging medium. If you want to disproportionately grow your influence, you have to get great at the next medium. It's not easy. I remember Tory Burch built an entire brand, a billion-dollar empire, because she had a feel for Instagram. While all of the luxury players were figuring out the legal liability, what if we say this, what if we say something that offends people, she just started talking about her shoes and taking them off at TSA and taking pictures. It just resonated. I would be totally focused. I wouldn't be too preoccupied with Twitter because we in the beltway, the cultural elite, are obsessed with Twitter. If I were advising Jamie Raskin or Liz Cheney, I would want the smartest people, agencies, and vendors in a room thinking about TikTok morning, noon, and night around this.

Kara Swisher: Yep, 100 percent. We are now going to bring on a friend of Pivot, Crystal Todd. She is a CPA and an influencer on TikTok—and I don't mean that in an insulting way because she's fantastic. She offers financial advice, giving investing tips to beginners, and has a series on "Dead Broke Companies" which are very funny. Let's listen to some clips.

[Audio clip plays] Crystal Todd: Popular but dead broke companies, part five. I did not know Peloton cost two thousand dollars. They tripping. They have lost money for the past three years. As you can see for 2021, they lost $187 million. And again, this is lost from operations. So that means their business model sucks. If you came to me and said, "Hey, Crystal, I want to sell shirts. And every shirt you sold cost you $4 to sell." I'd be like, "Sis, we got to talk."

Kara Swisher: Crystal, this is fantastic. Welcome, Crystal Todd. How you doing?

Crystal Todd: Thanks, Kara. Thanks, Scott. Great to be here. I'm doing fantastic.

Scott Galloway: You're like my soulmate in some way. I had to have you here. I'm curious—100%, except you're much smarter. Anyway, why did you decide to take your advice to TikTok? Talk a little bit about how you conceived it. It's very straight talk. You show the numbers behind you often. You deal with some basic stuff, but it's relatively complex, even though it's aimed at beginners.

Crystal Todd: Yeah, of course. So I was on YouTube. I've been on YouTube since 2019. The audience on YouTube is a little bit more mature, a little bit more established. A lot of times I'm just talking amongst peers, but my purpose really is to spread awareness of financial information to everybody, not just people who agree with me. TikTok is a great place because it's high engagement and the information moves really fast. It allows me to get my content out in a concise way, but still educating and entertaining, which is the most important part because this stuff is boring. It puts you right to sleep. So you need to have some entertainment in it.

Kara Swisher: What's been the response? Who listens to you? Do you get a sense of that?

Crystal Todd: Yes, definitely. On TikTok, it's a much younger crowd. So I find myself explaining things that maybe people on YouTube would have understood already. That's perfect because it's an opportunity to show more about this finance world. I would say maybe the 20-something year olds, definitely Gen Z is paying attention a lot. They're opining on some of my videos, especially when it comes to work culture, because apparently nobody wants to work.

Scott Galloway: No, apparently.

Crystal Todd: Yes, they do. But nonetheless.

Kara Swisher: When you try to do them, you talked about being concise, and that's one thing you really do. You go to the heart of the issue. "Look at this number. Let me explain why this number is important." How do you conceive of them? How short and how long? What is the message you're trying to get through?

Crystal Todd: The timing came from trial and error. You can see certain videos will need some more explanation. When I'm actually showing things or illustrating on my whiteboard, that requires maybe the full three minutes on TikTok. But little tidbits of information are a little bit easier to digest. So it depends on the information. If it's an intense topic, like these "Popular but Dead Broke Companies," there are so many factors in their balance sheet and their income statement. I don't want to bore people, and I don't want to provide too much information. A lot of times I'll record everything I want to say, and then I'll play it back and say, "But what really makes sense? What's going to really encourage somebody to look into some more?" Shock factor and things like that to really evoke emotion, because that's what people are—we're emotional beings.

Scott Galloway: Speaking of which, I'm not exaggerating. Yesterday, my 11-year-old took a date to Atlantic Avenue in Delray Beach. He came home with a $40 British box of candy. I said, "How much did that cost?" He said $40. I said, "How did you buy it?" He said, "With the money you gave me." I said to him, "The math ain't mathing," which is a Crystal quote. I just want to start off by saying I think you are doing really important work, and I'm hugely appreciative. It strikes me—and there will be a question in here—that I learned calculus in high school and it caused me so much stress. I don't think I've been able to use it a whole heck of a lot. But I also was blessed. I used to go to the pay phone booth and contact my broker because I bought 16 shares of Columbia Pictures, and he used to walk me through stuff about the stock market. That has paid off huge dividends. What do you think we could do in high school? What would you take out and what would you insert? I think you're going to save a lot of young people a lot of heartache, and you're also going to help people establish economic security earlier in their lives. What could we do at a high school level to improve people's financial literacy?

Crystal Todd: Exactly. The school system is so antiquated. It's vintage. There is no, at least on a nationwide basis, requirement for financial education, which is weird because I dissected frogs in my science class. I will never do that ever again in my life. However, I wasn't taught how to balance a checkbook or what a check even is, what dividends are, all of these basic things that we see in our lives every day. Creating an environment where it's not only an elective brushed to the side, but it's required, especially for our high schoolers, maybe starting in 10th grade or so. The more years you have this, the better. You don't get better at anything unless you're actually practicing. So we need years and years and years of financial education at different levels that are actually palatable for those kids.

Kara Swisher: What would be critical? You mentioned balancing a checkbook, but what are the things? It's astonishing we never talk about money at all and then throw these kids into whatever. I had to sit with my sons and explain a checkbook. Go ahead.

Crystal Todd: Exactly. Maybe we don't use checkbooks as much these days. When I was growing up, we used it much more. But at the very basics, we need to learn about money management and actually looking for a return on investment. What happened to me is, things worked out in my favor, but sometimes kids just end up going to college because it's the right thing to do. But have you calculated your return on that investment? How much money are you going to spend on that college tuition? What is it going to come back out to you? Are you going to be able to see that return within a couple of years? Or does somebody in your field never make the kind of money you incurred with all those fees? Definitely calculating your investments, basic money management, understanding basic stocks, and of course, new current events that are coming up. Bitcoin is a big thing, cryptocurrencies, Web3. There's a whole bunch of current events that we're also missing from the education system.

Kara Swisher: How are you handling that on the videos, Bitcoin? Because Bitcoin's gone down. A lot of young people are focused on that and have lost a lot of money, or the meme stocks, or NFTs.

Crystal Todd: My focus is on education. With all the access we have to the internet, a lot of times you just scroll on Twitter, you'll see something about Bitcoin, then you go make a purchase. No, absolutely not. I really pride myself in educating people because when you're educated and you see fluctuations, whether it's in cryptocurrency or even stocks, you're going to be solid because you know that you did the research and maybe you feel confident about that company. You didn't just buy it because somebody on the internet said to. That's why people end up having FOMO and rushing in and out of things because they don't do the work themselves. They have no clue what's going on except what they see on Twitter.

Scott Galloway: I'm curious what opportunities have come your way. Do you see yourself eventually being like a Suze Orman? What is your—we all have to make a living. We all talk about the importance of economic security, but how does this play into your career?

Crystal Todd: I like to advise anybody in any industry to think about what you would be doing in your industry 10 years from now. I'm in accounting, and I already see it at my day job—we are instilling a lot of different technology. These days, you have to be technology enough. You have to understand technology and where things are moving. The trend for education is going online. With the pandemic, we all were forced to be in our houses and many of these kids had to learn online. But now, because the internet has made online learning so easily accessible, I see that people are going to be on the internet looking for this information, which I will provide in courses. I have a bunch of courses in the pipeline. One is actually releasing next week, and it's about money management. As these courses build, we are going to increase things. I'll have current events, Discords, ways that people can actually communicate and be up to date about current economic trends that are not biased, because you want to have the education piece and then you make your own decision from there.

Kara Swisher: You have categories of videos. You have money hacks. What's your number one money hack?

Crystal Todd: My favorite piece of advice is there is risk in everything, so don't let that deter you from investing. Maybe back in the day, you could have your money in a savings account and then you could retire and live off that savings. That world has long gone. Now, in order to actually make a living and become more financially successful, you have to step out into that risk curve. Not being afraid, actually researching everything, and taking time to educate yourself so you can make sound financial decisions is very crucial. It's the best thing I can tell anybody to do. Don't ever just listen to someone on the internet. I say it on my videos all the time: "I'm just a random girl on the internet. Go do your own due diligence."

Kara Swisher: I don't think so, but okay. I don't think you are.

Crystal Todd: Thanks, Kara.

Kara Swisher: In that way, you also cover investing. One of the things Scott's been talking a lot about—I want Scott to talk about buy now, pay later—but when people don't have experience in investing and want to jump in with a small amount, they get sucked up into whatever, an AMC meme or whatever it happens to be. How do you recommend for someone who doesn't have experience to start and get started?

Crystal Todd: Okay, it depends. I believe that at the very least, you should be investing in something every single month. As I said, if you're saving, you're losing. We all see inflation now. I've been preaching from the mountains since 2019, but this has been going on for years. Now we're actually seeing a lot of traction. People are talking about it a lot. Inflation is taking over, and we need to make sure we're figuring out ways to keep our money secure and sound. When you're first starting out, having something that's automatic—if you're not so comfortable yet but you know you want to get started—you can try ETFs. These are exchange-traded funds that are a collection of different bonds or stocks in whatever kind of industry you're interested in. I would say, pick something you're interested in, something you can actually research and you won't get tired of. From there, pick an ETF that you could invest in every single month. That'll be your passive investments. But you can also get active out here. You could also target companies that you actually like. If you like Amazon, just throwing that out there, look at their financials, get an understanding of what's coming up next. Every quarter, these companies have conversations with their investors and they let them know what's in the pipeline. Get comfortable with these companies and then put some money in. A lot of times people will say, "I want to invest," and then they just sit there with the money in their savings account. If you actually put something in there, now you have some sweat equity. You have some skin in the game, and that'll motivate you to look into it deeper. At least that was my experience, especially with precious metals. I definitely wasn't on board with that at first, but I said, "Let me just invest something in there." As you see it growing a little bit, you get excited and you put more effort into it.

Scott Galloway: I'm curious if you see a difference between the financial literacy of boys versus girls. I think boys have this problem where they think, "I don't need to save because I'm going to be a baller and someday make a hundred million dollars." How do boys think about it differently than girls in high school? Have you found a difference?

Crystal Todd: Yes, I've absolutely found a difference. Even when women are actually into these things, a lot of times you're into the cute budget planners. I hate to do this because I'm a woman too, but I can't help but notice what I notice. On the YouTube realm, I'll have plenty of men commenting, and a lot of them actually do know their stuff. They're engaged, they're talking about more complex matters. I only really see the women get excited when I'm doing budgeting stuff. I don't know what that is necessarily, but it's very interesting. I think women don't take on these more complex problems enough and actually want to learn about more complex financial situations. The men seem a little bit more—maybe to a fault, maybe they think they know it all. They're on my channel like, "You're wrong because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

Scott Galloway: Let me put forward a thesis and you respond to it. We all see dopamine hits at that age. Boys get dopamine from gambling, and they approach investing as a gambler. Girls get dopamine from buying, and they think about saving money as a means such that they can buy something really fabulous. Your thoughts?

Crystal Todd: Yeah, no, I think it's absolutely true. Sometimes the guys will fall victim to lifestyle creep, just buying things frivolously for no reason. But definitely women—I'm guilty of it. I like to have my nails done. I like to go out to eat and things like that. So yeah, we're victims of our society.

Kara Swisher: We have two more questions. One of the things that Scott's talked about and written a lot is buy now, pay later, which is a trend with all these apps. Instant credit and things like that. You've had a video talking about how minimum payments on credit cards are designed to keep us in debt forever. Obviously, there's been a lot of attention given to student debt right now, and it gets amplified by the internet in a lot of ways. How do you look at that? People get sucked up into Robinhood in a gamified way. You're trying to make investing fun, but there is a danger to making it too fun, correct?

Crystal Todd: Yes. We have just repackaged layaway in so many different ways. These buy now, pay later—Afterpay, Klarna. Even fractional shares, in my opinion, is definitely a form of layaway. You can't afford the whole stock, so you're just buying piece by piece. While on one hand it is great because it does open up more accessibility for those who cannot buy full shares of stocks, it is teaching us how to be a very debt-hungry society, buying off of margins. You're basically taking out loans just to get stocks and getting into really high-risk things. I definitely don't encourage these types of buy now, pay later, especially with clothes. A lot of it is buying clothes or buying random things in your house. If you can't afford it, you probably should not be buying it. That's just a stark reality. These types of companies are encouraging us to get into more debt. That makes the world go round, so someone has to be in debt. But the more people that we can actually convert to not really following the system, the better.

Scott Galloway: One of the biggest reasons for divorce is financial disagreement. You have such an important voice. Have you thought about bridging financial security and financial literacy to relationships and how important it is to start having those conversations earlier in a relationship?

Crystal Todd: Oh, my goodness. No, I actually made a video about relationships and money years ago, and it was one of the worst performing videos I've ever had on my channel. Never mind. People are not interested.

Kara Swisher: I have one last question. Should we get on TikTok? We'd be terrible on TikTok.

Crystal Todd: No, you guys would be awesome on TikTok. Are you kidding me?

Kara Swisher: What should we do? I would slip and break a hip on TikTok.

Crystal Todd: No. You guys should definitely post pieces of your podcast on TikTok. Even just you recording on TikTok. The engagement on TikTok is so awesome. It's becoming like a more fast-paced YouTube, and there's a wealth of information on there. I really see a need for the political things that you guys talk about and the finance business things that we talk about. There's a need for it on there. A lot of times it's just a whole bunch of billionaires talking about how great they're doing and how you should buy their course. Yes, I'm going to tell you the course too, but my focus is on accessibility and helping raise awareness about these financial topics.

Kara Swisher: Well, in any case, we find Crystal fantastic. You should follow her. You can find her on TikTok at crystaltoddcpa. That's Crystal with a K. Where are you on YouTube?

Crystal Todd: It's The Cash Compass.

Kara Swisher: The Cash Compass. All right. Anyway, she's fantastic. I watch not that much TikTok, but you were someone I found. The math ain't mathin', Kara.

Scott Galloway: Math ain't mathin'.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we're big fans. Crystal, thank you so much. Thanks for your good and important work.

Crystal Todd: Of course. Thanks for having me, guys. I really appreciate it.

Kara Swisher: No problem. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, let's hear some predictions.

Scott Galloway: So I just have one, and it's always dangerous to make stock predictions, so I'm trying to avoid it and just talk about what I buy and what I sell, but that's not going to stop me today. Twitter right now is at about $40 a share, which is way off the supposed closing price of $54.20. It's going to be in the 20s in the next, I don't know, 30 to 60 days as two things become increasingly clear. The person who agreed to buy it is not going to buy it. And it's very difficult to get someone to show up with $45 billion. You can fine them. This is all about the fine now.

Scott Galloway: But people are going to wake up and realize, okay, he started acquiring shares at $32 a share. And since he began acquiring shares at $32 a share, the peer group is off 20% to 50%, meaning the natural level of Twitter is either in the high teens or the low 20s. And when people realize that it's just increasingly unlikely this individual is going to show up with the funds, the next stage of realization will be people realizing there really isn't another deal here done at a lower price because the board can't accept a lower price from a guy whose agreement or commitments mean nothing.

Scott Galloway: So I think you're going to see huge pressure on Twitter stock as all of a sudden the stock price begins falling to its natural level as an independent trade company.

Kara Swisher: Could Elon then return? That's the thing. I think he's outed himself as someone who's not a credible acquirer.

Scott Galloway: I know, but a hostile thing. He could do a tender.

Kara Swisher: He could do a tender. That's an interesting point. I think he's got his eyebrows pretty badly burned off here. I don't know. I mean, this has not been good for him. Bloom is off the rose, as they say, but we'll see where it goes.

Scott Galloway: We'll see. We'll see. Any predictions from you, Kara?

Kara Swisher: I do not. I just predict that. What do I predict? I don't have any predictions.

Scott Galloway: There you go.

Kara Swisher: I don't have any predictions.

Scott Galloway: By the way, it's a shitty business. You're smart not to do it. Because when you get them wrong, people remind you. When you get them right, they're like, "Well, of course, because all the events leading up to the movies."

Kara Swisher: I'll do one. I'll do one. Not a stock one. I think Sheryl Sandberg is going to get a CEO job if she wants one. I'm going to tell you that.

Scott Galloway: You were talking about the Amazon exec.

Kara Swisher: Okay, but does she want one? I think she wants to run to the office. I don't know. I'm just saying. A lot of people talked about this this weekend. I tend to agree with them. Actually, Bill Cohen wrote a really good piece about it. I think it's very hard to find experienced CEOs that have the experience she has and all the stuff she has. I think they will look the other way. Certain companies will go, "You know what? She's really good at what she does." We'll see.

Scott Galloway: Anyway, I don't know. If she wanted to, she certainly could.

Kara Swisher: All right. That's the show. Oh, don't forget to send us your dating questions, by the way, because we're going to have a special on that. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit your questions for us or call 855-51-PIVOT. Although Crystal shut our relationship money thing down rather quickly. In any case, we're going for it. We're going to have that as one of the questions. Anyway, the link is also in our show notes.

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday for more. Please read us out.

Scott Galloway: Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Injertot engineered the episode. Thanks also to Drew Rose and Miel Silverio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. The math ain't mathin', and Kara, have a great week.

Kara Swisher: Okay, great.