--:-- Kara Swisher: Not all journalism is the same. Take The Guardian. Our coverage has something unique. Fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say. So we're free to report the whole picture. We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe. Expose corruption wherever we find it. And give fresh perspective on everything. From wellness and soccer to culture, the climate and more. Read, watch and listen to The Guardian for free at theguardian.com.
--:-- Scott Galloway: AI agents are getting pretty impressive. You might not even realize you're listening to one right now. We work 24-7 to resolve customer inquiries. No hold music, no canned answers, no frustration. Visit sierra.ai to learn more.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
--:-- Scott Galloway: And I'm Scott Galloway. It's time for our end-of-year listener mailbag episode. You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail.
--:-- Kara Swisher: We've gotten lots of great questions this year, and today we're going to dig in and answer every one we can. Are you ready for it?
--:-- Scott Galloway: Because you answered a lot of questions. And we have not heard these questions, right, Kara?
--:-- Kara Swisher: No, we have not. We are going to hear them, and then we are going to react. It's authentic. It's clear. And so we appreciate our listeners, and we're glad they sent in great questions. They have sent in great questions. Anyway, let's kick it off with a question from Jason from Minneapolis. It's about transportation. Let's play the tape.
--:-- Jason (Listener): Hi, Scott and Kara. My name's Jason from Minneapolis, Minnesota. I'd like to get your thoughts on transportation, specifically urban mass transit. Do you see the future of transit in existing modes like light rail and buses? Or do you envision disruption by companies like Uber and Lyft or even Tesla and Apple? It'd be great to hear your thoughts on this topic. Thanks so much.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Wow, that's a really interesting question, Jason.
--:-- Scott Galloway: He sounded like Amy Klobuchar, didn't he? Didn't Jason sound like Amy Klobuchar?
--:-- Kara Swisher: That was not my first thought, that he sounded like a female senator. That did not run through my mind. Why don't you start on this one? But I'm sure he's excited to hear that.
--:-- Scott Galloway: I'm sure that that's, yeah. I love Amy Klobuchar. It's a compliment.
--:-- Kara Swisher: I'm going to start now, actually. So, yes, I think it's not going to be existing. I think it's going to get disruption, especially now that Mayor Pete is also from the Midwest, has tons and tons of money to spend. I do think there's going to be a lot of disruption, even though people joked about Elon Musk's Boring Company, the Move Traffic Underground. But I think there's a lot more promise there than people realize. I think that we will be moving more to mass transit over time as cars become more autonomous and self-driving. I think people are, as I've written, ride-hailing apps do increase traffic, but I think it's a thing that's happened and it's moved along. So I think there's going to be disruption. That's my feeling. Scott?
--:-- Scott Galloway: Yeah, I think I agree with you. I'm fascinated by infrastructure investments, and I'm also fascinated by transportation and aviation. My father, before he left my mom for his next wife, used to take me to the Orange County John Wayne Airport before there was even security. And you could walk out on the runway, and he used to put his hands over my ears, and we would watch planes land and take off. And we would do a game where I would guess the plane. I'd be like, oh, that's a DC-9. That's a 737. Hold me, Kara. Hold me.
--:-- Kara Swisher: That is a lovely – that seems like a Hallmark movie waiting to be made. Isn't that nice?
--:-- Scott Galloway: Yeah. Except for the lead. Before he moved in with a flight attendant from Continental Airlines.
--:-- Kara Swisher: All right. Well, then you have a good relationship with transportation.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so I think that I'm super excited about innovation in transportation. You introduced me to someone I want to invest in. I want to invest in Boom because I think reattaching.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Explain what Boom is.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Boom is supersonic. And that is the Concorde was a fantastic idea, but the technology wasn't there. And now because of technology and materials, fuselage engines, we might have economical, viable, efficient supersonic. And the idea of getting from New York to London in three and a half hours, I think that's a much bigger market than sending people up for seven minutes to the Carmen line for $400,000. Anyways, but specifically to the question on urban transportation, something like 80 percent of all time spent commuting is on trips of eight miles or less. And the thing, I'm going to Bangkok over the holidays. I love Bangkok. I think it's an incredible city. Great city. And I'm taking my boys. And one of the really, I forget what it's called, but the train, they literally built a train line right down the middle of the city. And it transformed the city. And it created all sorts of economic growth and freed up all sorts of time. But the great unlocks economically and also from a societal standpoint are when you can save people a lot of time so they can spend more time with their families, spend more time on self-care, spend more time making money. And the opportunity, I think the most under-hyped part of Elon's portfolio is the Boring Company.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Me too.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Because the idea of boring a tunnel between Midtown and LaGuardia.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yeah. I mean, LaGuardia is like six and a half miles from. It takes nine years to get there. And it takes, it's not even the amount of time it takes, it's the variance in the amount of time. Because occasionally you get there in 18 minutes and you think, oh, this is easy. And then the next day it takes an hour and a half and you spend the last 30 minutes.
--:-- Scott Galloway: The National Airport here. It's right in town, but it's not. You spend the last 30 minutes digesting your stomach because you're about to miss your goddamn plane. Yeah. Anyways, and not only that, there's a huge application for the Boring Company and subterranean transportation to get us on espresso pods because I think you're going to start hearing more about the last, last mile.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yeah, trucks in New York. And the ability to get your stuff really –
--:-- Scott Galloway: Can you imagine New York if things were underground? That would be so great if all the deliveries were –
--:-- Kara Swisher: Well, all you have to see is people who really understand transportation are always kind of fascinated by the MTA and the New York subway. It really is amazing. And the fact that you can get around so efficiently and so quickly when it's working, and it does, I think for the most part, they do a fantastic job.
--:-- Scott Galloway: I agree. I think it gets slapped a lot, but it is astonishing. I think they do a great job. But the Boring Company is the most under-hyped. Tesla is massively the most over-hyped. And somewhere in the middle, an amazing company that'll probably create the most shareholder value is SpaceX. But that's a different talk show. But I think urban transportation, you talked about autonomous. I love the idea of the Boring Company. I think there'll be some sexier stuff that won't get as much traction, such as autonomous or electric.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Bikes? Rotocopters are basically flying.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Oh, oh, vertical. They're called vertical lift and takeoff.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Vertical lift? Yeah, they're called vellos. Vellos, yeah. They're interesting. I think what, you know, obviously Kitty Hawk is working on things. I think you can't count out all the bikes in the city and electric bikes. I think this is something, you know, other European cities use bikes a lot more, but it's more and more in the cities, you've noticed. The last part is, of course, people are staying home more and not commuting to downtown areas. And so that will be an interesting shift in terms of how people get around. People aren't doing as much business travel. But I do think there's going to be a move to more different kind of mass transit. It isn't endlessly exhausting. So we feel disruption, correct? And Apple, of course, Apple. We've talked about Apple putting out a car. I can't imagine if they move into cars, they won't move into buses and everything else kind of stuff.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Yeah, I think, look, infrastructure is one of the best investments you make. It is the definition of investment, and that is, you know, it's the immediate return. But the invisible infrastructure of our airways is something that's underappreciated.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Roads have worked out rather well, yeah.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Yeah, and subways and bridges and transportation and municipal transportation. I mean, it's really strange. It can also backfire. I think one of the things that is the worst thing for the brand of San Francisco is the public transportation there. It's just always been terrible.
--:-- Kara Swisher: It's not terrible. Sorry, I rode it all the time. It's not terrible.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Oh, Muni? It's just not in enough places. They're about to open a new—
--:-- Kara Swisher: Oh, my God. I rode it every day.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Well, you must have been on the white person's route.
--:-- Kara Swisher: No, I was not. There's like a few routes from the marina downtown.
--:-- Scott Galloway: No, I took buses. The rest sucks.
--:-- Kara Swisher: I took buses and Muni all over the San Francisco Bay Area. It's not the worst. It's just not—
--:-- Scott Galloway: I'm sorry. The 83 on RTD in LA going down Worcester Boulevard is much better.
--:-- Kara Swisher: They just built a new one going down the other direction, going to the wharf and stuff like for tourists and stuff like that. I think it's not that bad. It's not terrible, but it's not. The buses are quite okay. I use them all the time. Anyway.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Quite okay. I like them. I never have. For a concentrated city with the greatest concentration of wealth in the world and their public transportation is quite okay.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Well, you know, Larry and Sergey want, there's issues around the hills. I don't know if you've heard, but San Francisco is very hilly.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Larry and Sergey wanted. I think you've been condescending. I think you're mocking me with that statement.
--:-- Kara Swisher: I believe I am.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Larry and Sergey wanted to put in chairlifts and Gavin Newsom, they wanted to put in chairlifts.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yeah, up the hills. Anyway, let's get to the next question about green.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Yeah, chairlifts. They wanted chairlifts. And then you get on them and ride them up the hills. Don't you love the idea of a bunch of VCs falling off the chairlifts and then being run over by Muni?
--:-- Kara Swisher: I do. I always liked it. Gavin Newsom called me right after they did that. And he's like, I can't believe this when he was mayor of San Francisco.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Okay, next question about green. I thought he didn't call me.
--:-- Kara Swisher: I didn't call you. Yeah.
--:-- Scott Galloway: That's because we both lived in San Francisco.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Well, he was mayor. That is the widest statement ever. After the idea of a chairlift in San Francisco was discussed, the governor called me.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Well, smell you, white lady.
--:-- Kara Swisher: All right, listen. Smell you. Read my book. Anyway, Scott, next question about green energy. This one came via email from a listener named Oliver. I will read it to you. "Do you have any advice or warnings about investing in green energy? The last week's, what with COP26, there's been a lot of talk about the private sector investing trillions to combat climate change. How can a small fish like me get involved?" Good question. Scott, would you like to start? Or I can start on this one.
--:-- Scott Galloway: I know. You go first.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Well, you know, a lot of VCs were originally invested in green energy and then they sort of, it fell apart because they weren't getting the returns because it was way too early to do this. But you have a lot of really big investors, including Elon Musk, including Bill Gates, many others moving into the green energy space. And I think they don't use a term, it's climate change tech, I think is what it is more called. I think it's a huge opportunity. And I've said over and over again, I think the world's first trillionaire is going to be a climate change tech person. There's mitigation. There's all kinds of things. There's so many different ideas. I know a small startup that's using algae to eat up carbon. There's all kinds of really fascinating things going on. And I consider them all in the bowl of tech kind of things, solutions. They'll be all – and that includes going into space and living elsewhere, not on this planet, thinking about our plan B, essentially. So, yes, I think there's all kinds of ways to invest. There's tons and tons and tons of startups. And you'll see, you know, it's sort of like the early days of the Internet. At the same time, you're going to possibly lose a lot of money with some of them. So it's a very risky area to pick and choose.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Well, yeah, we like this is a complicated one because I think we bought into this narrative that some graduate from MIT is going to solve climate change and make us rich along the way. And wouldn't that be nice? Not going to happen. Look, I think we've mostly in our generation – well, actually not our generation. A lot of generations have arbitraged the climate in order to create trillions of dollars in shareholder value and also some prosperity. Fossil fuels have played a huge part in society's progress. But essentially we've been arbitraging it and ignoring the externalities to make us rich. And now we'd like to think that we can unbundle or fix the climate while getting rich. And some of that is true but I still at the end of the day think it a bit of a false flag and absolves us from making the hard choices and investments we're going to need to make as nations and as mature economies to come together get rid of coal and just recognize this is going to be expensive. And so I don't like this narrative around we're going to get rich solving climate change. And what you've seen is this-
--:-- Kara Swisher: I do think people are going to get rich solving climate change. It doesn't mean that it's not a difficult thing. There's going to be technology.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Well, the ultimate sleight of hand here is that Tesla, Rivian, and Lucid combined are now worth almost the entire automobile market. So the smart analysts will go, well, this kind of assumes, these valuations kind of assume that these three companies are going to sell every car produced on earth. And they go, well, no, we don't want to talk about that because that's an irrational argument and doesn't justify our valuation. So we changed the total adjustable market to climate change. And I don't, it's really at some point, I think the market does reattach to its fundamentals. Now, having said that, I think it's an exciting place. I think your investment dollars can be a force of change. I'm investing in some stuff around climate tech. I think it's-
--:-- Kara Swisher: What? What are you investing in?
--:-- Scott Galloway: So I'm talking to some guys about where I'm going to invest, and this will be unpopular, I'm going to invest in nuclear. I think once we get our heads out of the clouds-
--:-- Kara Swisher: Lots of countries operate on it, but go ahead.
--:-- Scott Galloway: And I'm going to stop talking about the Hallmark channel version of how we solve climate change. I think nuclear relative to the risk and relative to the waste is a fantastic way to replace coal. And I think it's going to be any part of a sober conversation around how we make the type of progress we need to make against carbon emissions will ultimately lead to a sober conversation around the role that nuclear plays.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yep, I would agree with that.
--:-- Scott Galloway: So I'm interested in investing in nuclear tech. Not solar.
--:-- Kara Swisher: You're not doing solar or wind or things like that?
--:-- Scott Galloway: No. My sense is that that stuff still requires so many subsidies. There's a new technology, and actually Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are investing in this company. As I understand it, the equivalent of mini-mills and steel mills, they used to be very expensive, and then they came up with mini-mills that were more efficient. There's essentially that type of technology that could make mini-reactors that are nearly the financial or capital costs and produce a lot of electricity. Anyways, I'm very interested in nuclear. I think it's a word we're going to hear more.
--:-- Kara Swisher: All right. I think also you have to think about lots of areas like food, clothing. There's all sorts of questions about how to make clothing and produce it. Construction materials. There's all kinds of innovation and making of materials and how we make things. There's all kinds of ways to participate in this area. And there's tons and tons of different companies.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Just to put on my investor hat, though, if you're purely an economic animal, I would argue. I would argue that on a risk-adjusted basis, your best returns – and I am not an investor in any of these companies. But I think your best returns would be a basket of Exxon, Chevron, and Hess. I think that fossil fuel companies have been so punished. And the bottom line is we overestimate the speed away from fossil fuels, how dependent we are on them. And these companies are generally well-run companies that spin off a shit ton of cash flow. So I don't invest in them. I'm not going to invest in them. But if you were purely looking for stock market returns, I actually think fossil fuels offer great returns right now.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Oh, dear, Scott.
--:-- Scott Galloway: I know. I know. Sorry.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Well, you know, they are cleaning up the environment. You know how they talk about that. It's so funny. Beyond Petroleum. That was one of the great rebrandings.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Yeah. Beyond Petroleum. You're Beyond Petroleum.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Anyway, here's a question. I'm Beyond Sexy.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Hello.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Oh, good God.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Hello. I knew that was coming in.
--:-- Kara Swisher: I don't know how you managed to do that in the climate change area. Anyway, here's a question about a certain someone at Facebook, a.k.a. Meta. Roll tape.
--:-- Jason from London (Listener): Hi, Scott and Kara. This is Jason from London. I was really curious what you thought of Andrew Bosworth being promoted at Facebook. Having recently read An Ugly Truth, the authors of which you had in your podcast, it doesn't come across in the best light, or he doesn't at least. So really curious what you think of that shakeup of Facebook.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Oh, this is all you, Kara.
--:-- Scott Galloway: All right.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Well, you know, Andrew Bosworth is a very important figure at Facebook, no matter how you slice it. And he certainly has over the years said and done some controversial things, but he is completely in lockstep with Mark Zuckerberg. They're very close personally. He's one of his closest advisors. I don't think of it as a shakeup in that it's inevitable that he would be in this position. I suspect he's one of the top choices for CEO, and he's willing to do whatever it takes. He's reflective, certainly. He can be obstreperous, but he's definitely the person that is going to be an important figure in Facebook, has been and will be going forward. There's a few other names, of course, that have been bandied about, but I think he's probably in the pole position, maybe Chris Cox. There are some others.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Isn't Andrew Bosworth a guy that was the biggest draft bust of all time in the NFL?
--:-- Kara Swisher: Wait, different Bosworths. Different Bosworths. Remember that guy? He became an action film hero for like a minute. Do you remember what I'm talking about?
--:-- Scott Galloway: No, I do not. It's a sports figure, so no.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Well, that's it. I'm not seeing the Kristen Stewart movie. You need to see that. That's it. Here's the deal with these people at Facebook. I'm going to keep going with you. Hold on, hold on. Just let me just say this.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Go finish your tangent.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Talking about any of their executives other than Sheryl Sandberg at Facebook is like talking about the generals for Kim Jong-un or whatever his name is. They don't make any fucking difference. He's an autocrat. Everyone is there just to be his mouthpiece. He looks at him and says, can you parrot me in my sociopathic ways all day long? Okay, you're hired. And the moment you stop, you're out. So no one really matters here. No one – just FYI, Facebook, I'm trying to think of a delicate way of saying this. You don't matter. If you're working on Diem or Carpe Diem or Libra or Portal or Meta or Oculus, just know on your way to work, you are totally fucking irrelevant. Okay, next question.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Let me just say, he is a much bigger figure than that. He was at Harvard. I think he was one of his TAs at Harvard, I think. I forget. Anyway, he's a very important figure at the company. He just is. He is. He's going to be replacing Mike Shrepfer, who announced he'd be transitioning. And he has been working on all the key things at the company. So his biggest thing was the memo that was circulated within Facebook and got out called The Ugly. What was it about? It argued that connecting people was important and said, sometimes you break some eggs. I think essentially, as I recall, it was provocative, which he is. You could have negative consequences and there's all kinds of things that could happen, but them's the breaks. It was interesting. It was an interesting, I think he was telling the truth, you know, and he has since refuted it a little bit. He told BuzzFeed, I don't agree with the post today. It was a post I think he did in 2016 where he said, I don't agree. I didn't agree with it when I wrote it. The purpose of the post, like many others I've written internally, was to bring the surface issues, I felt, deserve more discussion at the broader company. So, okay.
--:-- Scott Galloway: All right. He likes to be provocative. So he's provocative. Anyway, next question. We have a fun one. The question was sent in via Twitter from a listener named Kelly. She wants to know, do you have a favorite guest or interview you have done? Scott, what is your answer?
--:-- Kara Swisher: Well, this is front of mind right now, but I think John McWhorter is fantastic. What are some of your thoughts? So I'll start with John.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Okay. John McWhorter, who wrote Woke Racism. We've had him on before. I think he's a very strong thinker. You know, I hadn't thought of this off the top of my head. I think we try to mix them as much as we can. And so I couldn't think of one that I thought was better than the others. I think Casey's always good. I, you know, I like your friend, the Canadian, when we've had him on, Sorkin. Andrew Sorkin, Canadian spy.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Canadian spy. Canadian spy.
--:-- Scott Galloway: I think I liked Pamela Paul about – she wrote the internet before the internet thing, like what has changed. I thought that was a really interesting discussion.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Did we have Maureen Dowd on? We had Maureen Dowd on.
--:-- Scott Galloway: No, not yet.
--:-- Kara Swisher: No, did we? No, we didn't.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Well, I still – she's my favorite guest. Even if she's never been on the show, I love her.
--:-- Kara Swisher: We have to have her. I love her. It's very hard to convince her to do that. I have to tell you. Actually, my favorite guest was Maggie Haberman because you were so scared of her.
--:-- Scott Galloway: I'm not scared of Maggie. I was literally two minutes late, and you're like texting and calling in the fire department.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Well, she's a busy lady. She covers things.
--:-- Scott Galloway: You're like, Maggie waits for no man. Get to the mic.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Oh, okay. So one of the things our producers are telling us to me is favorite interview ever. Don't have to stick to Pivot. I'd have to say Steve Jobs. Interesting, hard. Here we go. You had to be on your toes.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Did Gavin Newsom call you about your interview with Steve Jobs?
--:-- Kara Swisher: I really like Gavin Newsom. Jesus Christ. I really like almost every interview I do. Which ones? I used to love interviewing, and I haven't done an interview with him in a while. Barry Diller. Barry Diller. He's always funny. Go ahead.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Who? My go-to.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yeah. My total go-to and who I think is probably one of the brightest people or more thoughtful reason calling balls and strikes person is my colleague Aswath Damodaran. He's my favorite guest.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Oh, yeah. I've had him on. Oh, God. Why are we forgetting? I've had him on the Prop G pod probably three times.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yeah. That was a great call. I just think he's a – I just could listen to him all day. I think it's fantastic. Yeah. I really – I like all my little interviews. I like all my little energies. I like them all. Whatever I just did. I like the Hans Zimmer one I just did. I thought it was very interesting. And I didn't realize the range of his, how much he had done before.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Oh, you know who was great? It was Caleb Scharf, the astrophysicist from Columbia. He was great. He was really good.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yeah.
--:-- Scott Galloway: All right. Well, those are all good people. We like everybody. We like everybody. And send suggestions of who we should talk to. And my favorite was Emily Ratajkowski, even though I didn't listen to it. I turned on, I muted it and just watched it. Anyway.
--:-- Kara Swisher: There was no video.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Is that a hate crime?
--:-- Kara Swisher: There was no video. Again, no video.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Is that a hate crime?
--:-- Kara Swisher: Oh, my God. It was a really good interview. You should listen to it. Actually, you know what? It's hard being this beautiful.
--:-- Scott Galloway: I'm going to say one more. It's hard being this hot, Kara. Listen. It's painful being this scorchingly hot.
--:-- Kara Swisher: I have one more, I think, was my favorite recent interview, Monica Lewinsky. I have to say. She's great. I enjoyed your interview with her.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Great, great interview. And the McConaughey one was a good one. You interviewed Matthew McConaughey?
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah. He said all sorts of crazy shit.
--:-- Scott Galloway: How was that? What was he like?
--:-- Kara Swisher: Everyone was like he should not run for governor after it. He was lovely as a person, but he didn't know a lot of the topics of issues in Texas. So some big ones.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Isn't he kind of Val Kilmer with a better plastic surgeon?
--:-- Kara Swisher: What do you mean by voting rights? That's what he said, essentially. What do you mean by voting rights? There's some legislation happening in your state. So you're running for governor? People should vote. No, he just said he's not going to. He gave a little speech. He's not going. He shouldn't. I think this was sort of a bit of a knife in that effort because he wasn't very up to speed on Texas.
--:-- Scott Galloway: A few more edibles, that guy. That guy's like one, you know.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Lovely.
--:-- Scott Galloway: That guy's a few edibles short of Val Kilmer. Lovely guy.
--:-- Kara Swisher: In any case.
--:-- Scott Galloway: True Detective, season one. He was great. Dallas Buyers Club, outstanding.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yes, he is, but doesn't know anything about Texas governance. It's time for a quick break. Then we'll be back to answer more listener questions.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, we're back. Our next question comes from Norway, and it draws a parallel between big tech and gambling. How interesting.
--:-- Carly (Listener): Hi Kara and Scott, my name is Carly. I am an American expat who lives in Norway. So I work in responsible gambling and the company I work for every few years has to get recertified as a responsible gambling company by the European Lottery Association. And my question to you guys is why do we not have an ethical technology association or board that all of these large tech companies like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube have to be members of. And they get some certifications or they get a score every few years to show how ethical they truly are. So we have a better understanding of their practices. Thanks. Love the show.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Carly, you know why? Knock, knock. Americans suck. That's why. Europeans rock.
--:-- Scott Galloway: It would be sweet if I could finish it. But right now, there's just Norway.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Okay. There's no way the United States would ever do this to any businesses. That's why, Carly, as an American, even though you live in Norway, you do understand that the less we try to hinder our companies, the better, even if they're ruining our society. So they would never, ever do anything. I think that would be a really interesting thing. But what does certification mean? How is it enforceable, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that's the problem. Correct, Scott? I don't know. What do you think?
--:-- Scott Galloway: I'm fascinated and think a lot about certification and rankings. I built my most, arguably my most successful business that Gavin Newsom called me about, was L2. And the way I built L2—that's absolutely a horrible thing to say—the way we built L2 was we came up with a ranking. We used to rank companies based on what we called their digital competence. And it's really powerful. Rankings can also be really negative. Organizations can begin studying to the test.
--:-- What we've seen in higher ed is the rankings have become so incredibly powerful because the only way you get 90 points of margin is to build a great brand. The rankings were initially constructed, and a big component of the ranking was your exclusivity or how many people you rejected. That has resulted in a rejectionist complexion of higher ed that has been incredibly damaging. U.S. News & World Report's ranking of colleges, which they started 30 or 40 years ago, has actually been really damaging.
--:-- You have to be really thoughtful about rankings because if they're successful, you end up with—there's a theory, and I forget who postulated it, but it's really powerful. The moment an index or a ranking or a metric becomes widely followed, it begins perverting that industry. That's a really interesting statement. The moment we have ratings, all of a sudden CNN and Fox begin totally thinking about how to just capture attention. Or advertisers just look at 18 to 49, so we end up with that. Rankings are really, really powerful.
--:-- Now, specific to this question around responsible gambling, I think a lot about gambling, specifically as it relates to young men. 85% of people with a gambling addiction are men. Something about the human brain or the dope, I don't know what it is, but men are much more prone to gambling addiction at a young age.
--:-- Also, an interesting stat—my mom was actually a docent in Las Vegas, and she used to do tours of the art at the Wynn and at the Bellagio. She used to come home with all these fun facts about gambling. The one that stuck in my mind is that gambling, of every addiction, has the highest suicide rate. If you're addicted to meth or alcohol, people recognize that you've become an alcoholic, and at some point, someone who cares about you hopefully intervenes. You get fired from your job, your spouse says give up the bottle or I'm leaving, you have an intervention.
--:-- Gambling, you can get so far in over your head and no one has any idea. You can literally lose your house, your kid's college fund, be fired, borrow money from everybody and lose it all. Nobody even knows. These people feel as if they are in so deep the only way out is to kill themselves. That always struck me as shocking.
--:-- The idea of a metric trying to assess how responsible a gambling organization is feels very Northern European. I don't know how you can operationalize that. It's never going to happen. There's no way to enforce it. We should just strengthen our current enforcement agencies. That's how we do it here. We slap them hard and make them liable for certain things. That's what we need to do.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Does anyone care? Where does a gambler gamble at responsible gambling? They're much more strict there, I think. Anyway, we need to move along, but it's a good question.
--:-- Scott Galloway: We need Joe Pesci. That's what we need. That's responsible gambling.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Here's a short one from a listener named Lee. Roll tape.
--:-- Jason (Listener): Kara, just a silly question on your memoir, which I can't wait to read. Are you going to follow Chicago Manual of Style or AP for your editing?
--:-- Kara Swisher: Jesus Christ. Could we have a wider question? Hello, Georgetown Commandeers. I can't. Honestly, Lee, thank you for a nice question. I'm glad you can't wait to read it, and I can't wait to write it. There's a whole section on Scott, I think.
--:-- Scott Galloway: I'm going to have that. Well, by the way, how is your memoir? Aren't you writing a book?
--:-- Kara Swisher: It's due very soon, and I'm not done.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Let's not discuss. Let's not discuss. I had a lot of things going on.
--:-- Kara Swisher: I feel for you. I know what that's like in the eighth or ninth inning.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Well, I'm not. You're supposed to be in the ninth inning, and you're really in the second.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Exactly. Thank you. Thank you for that. Okay. There's a question about kids these days. This came via email from Bridget in Florida. I'll read it.
--:-- "I live in St. Petersburg, Florida. My daughter's high school, Northeast High, is currently struggling with kids doing these TikTok challenges. They've completely vandalized the high school bathrooms, even removing stalls, doors, dividers, locks, sanitary containers, and even an actual toilet. They are now stealing stuff from the classrooms like clocks and pencil sharpeners. I feel like TikTok should remove or at least address these destructive challenges. I know they're happening all over, not just in our high school. I wanted to bring this to your attention in case you weren't aware."
--:-- I was not aware, Bridget. What do you think, Scott?
--:-- Scott Galloway: Yeah, TikTok has a lot of issues like this. I went to St. Pete for the first time. I took my boys to see the Dolly Museum. It's a wonderful city and an incredible museum. They do such a good job. I just feel so fond and impressed by St. Pete. I knew nothing about it. Go St. Pete.
--:-- I think there's a really big missed opportunity by TikTok. I think there's an opportunity for someone to come in and be the Puritan, conservative, reactionary—go give your First Amendment speech somewhere else—and really have a lot of guardrails and make it kind of safe viewing for kids. When you see videos of students assaulting teachers because of the "assault teacher challenge," it's just like, okay folks, you're missing. Clean it up, TikTok.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Not only that, every CEO of every media company, especially in tech, has always erred on the side of First Amendment because it happens to be the way you can ignore damage to the commonwealth and increase your revenues. They all of a sudden have incredible fidelity to the First Amendment, which is just ridiculous.
--:-- There's a huge opportunity for a platform, and I thought TikTok was headed this way, to say, look, go have your debate with a First Amendment lawyer on Twitter. Anything that reeks of damage that could result in violent behavior, extremist behavior, or generally is just really fucking ugly, we're just booting you off. I don't think they're that strict on that.
--:-- Scott Galloway: You know what? Here's the deal. Y'all are editors. Edit. Just edit.
--:-- Kara Swisher: That's exactly right. 100%. Your publishers unpublish things. You don't have to do everything, but stuff like this is like, just let someone else do that and let them deal with that. If you want to be like a bigger brand, everybody has these kinds of standards. I know all the First Amendment people scream, but restaurants look a certain way and others don't. If you want to have the big restaurant where everyone's happy and comfortable and safe, build that restaurant.
--:-- It's kind of ridiculous that they let this stuff go on. Of course, people with kids are going to do stuff like this. People should be better parents to have their kids do this stuff, but it's almost irresistible in a lot of ways. And they're also teenagers. So there you go.
--:-- All right. Next question comes from Joseph on Twitter, who wants some advice from us. Joseph asked, "I've been out of work since the beginning of the pandemic. I am a stay at home parent with two kids. Will online certification from Google help me find a job? Are companies going to seriously look at me as a potential hire with just a certificate versus someone with a degree?"
--:-- Yes, we say, Joseph. Scott, go on about this because this is something you talk about a lot.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Well, look, we live in a society that's driven by certification. The most powerful certification still in America is the traditional Bachelor of Arts. It's a powerful construct. The moment you get a college degree, you're more likely to get married, less likely to have heart disease. You make on average twice the aggregate amount of income over your lifetime as a non-college grad.
--:-- However, that may not be an option for you. If you're a stay-at-home dad with two kids, it just might not be realistic to figure out a way to get a traditional BA. I give big tech a lot of grief, but I think Google certificates—and I'd like to think this is Sundar Pichai—it's fantastic. Some of the stats around Google certificates: about two-thirds of people who have received a Google certificate do not have a traditional college degree. It's very cost-effective. It's very time-effective. The outcomes are really strong. The average salary of someone or a job that someone gets from a Google certificate—and I think they're doing UI/UX and product management—is about $85,000.
--:-- I think this is exactly where we need to head: more vocational training, more unbundling, more micro. Hats off to Google. I think this is a fantastic program and effort. They're also talking about coordinating and cooperating and partnering with community colleges. So much of these questions come down to our situation. What are your options? What are your obligations? But if you're a stay-at-home dad that doesn't have the opportunity to get more formal certification, I think Google certificates is fantastic. I'm a big fan.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yes. And we think, and I think they're coming, you'll see a lot more of this. I think it's a great thing that Sundar has done here. So yes, we think you can. I think people are looking at new ways of hiring people. There's low unemployment. So I think it's a great time to be able to get in there and show what you can do. You don't have to have gone to Harvard or whatever.
--:-- Also, we still need to focus on community colleges and other ways to do things. A plumber certificate, everything. All ways to train people for higher paying jobs than just being servants or serfs, as Scott says.
--:-- Okay, Scott, one more quick break. Then we'll be back and give our end of year resolutions.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, we're back. We're going to do some of our end-of-year resolutions now. What is yours, Scott? What is your resolution?
--:-- Scott Galloway: You know, I think everybody needs a code. My code is capitalism, stoicism, and atheism. Atheism is the most powerful part of my code. It makes me think about how I want to spend the rest of what I think is a very finite thing—the number of days we have here.
--:-- One of the things I'm trying to do professionally: as a younger entrepreneur and CEO, I don't think I was as kind as I could have been. I was quick to fire. I was very harsh. I thought of that as what you were supposed to do as a CEO. And I was successful, or certain outcomes were successful. As I get older, I'm trying to be a kinder manager, more patient, and just a little bit more thoughtful, and go to my slow thinking. I think I'm on the right track.
--:-- My resolution is to be—in a professional context—kinder, and also not take the bait and feel like I need to get back in everyone's face when I feel like I've been wronged. Kindness and grace. Those are my resolutions.
--:-- Kara Swisher: You're going to be less aggrieved is what you're saying.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Well, it's okay. I don't like the term aggrieved because it makes it sound like you're a victim. I think that's a horrible thing. It makes me feel weak. But in general, I want to emulate role models who demonstrate more grace and more kindness. That's what I'm going to try to do. How about you, Kara?
--:-- Kara Swisher: Well, invest more in our relationship, obviously.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Go on!
--:-- Kara Swisher: No, not really.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Go on!
--:-- Kara Swisher: No, I think two things. Professionally, I've done a lot in 2020 and 2021. I've done a lot of new things, which is interesting. I've said yes to things I really like. So it sounds crazy, but I kind of want to do a TV show. I want to do a TV show.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Really?
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yeah.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Well, you're doing a TV show, didn't I tell you? It's on CNN+.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Oh, okay, great. I mean, I'm the one getting paid for it, and it's my name on it. You got to bail my ass out of that. You're a guest every week.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Not unless you pay me a big chunk of money.
--:-- Kara Swisher: I think I'm doing fine professionally. I don't think I really have to change a lot. But I just am interested in a TV show.
--:-- Scott Galloway: What does Gavin Newsom think? Sorry. Go ahead.
--:-- Kara Swisher: You're so jealous. I love when you're jelly of all my fantastic connections.
--:-- Scott Galloway: I'm jealous a lot.
--:-- Kara Swisher: You should be. I have a fantastic book.
--:-- Scott Galloway: And envious.
--:-- Kara Swisher: You should be. Terribly insecure.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Once again, you should be. How's your book coming?
--:-- Kara Swisher: You know what? People don't know that, Scott. He's incredibly generous. He's an incredibly generous guy. He's always offering a hand. You're doing me a favor this weekend. I'm going to New York. You offered me your place. You're always saying something nice about this. So I am going to invest in our relationship more.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Well, you know, there's a chairlift there.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Okay. Now, listen. The last thing is I'm going to—personally, it's been really hard to have four children.
--:-- Scott Galloway: It is.
--:-- Kara Swisher: And I have to invest more time with Amanda. That's a lot.
--:-- Scott Galloway: I have to invest. It's hard to have four children at your age.
--:-- Kara Swisher: At any age.
--:-- Scott Galloway: At your age. And when you have children, you forget your primary relationship. So not this week because it's exhausting. But we have to do more stuff. It's hard when you have a lot of children. There's nothing wrong. I just have to think about it because it's work and the kids. So there should also be time for relationships. I know everybody talks about this issue. But right now, not today. Not today.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Kara, just trust me on this one. I'm very good at reconnecting lesbians. Just spend a lot of time on the couch, take two or three hours, and do a Kristen Stewart marathon.
--:-- Scott Galloway: We did. That's what we did the other day. We had such a good time.
--:-- Kara Swisher: See? There you go.
--:-- Scott Galloway: We're going to watch, actually, we watched the Spencer movie, where she plays Diana. And of course, somehow a lesbian scene gets into that movie, which we love. We're like, of course it's Kristen Stewart, a lesbian scene gets in. But then we decided every year we're going to watch the Kristen Stewart Christmas lesbian movie, which we love. It's a terrible, terrible movie, but we love it, where she plays a lesbian going home with her closeted girlfriend.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's great. It's a great movie.
--:-- Scott Galloway: No, and it is an admitted stereotype of lesbian women. I assume that the two of you would watch like six hours of Riverdale and then cry and then hug for an hour.
--:-- Kara Swisher: No, I hate Riverdale. Why do you always say Riverdale? It's ridiculous. I don't like Riverdale. I think it's mean. But I like Kristen Stewart, whatever she does.
--:-- Scott Galloway: You're turning into the Rex Harrison of the lesbian community. Like, remember Rex Harrison? The movie reviewer. Was it Rex Harris?
--:-- Kara Swisher: Oh, Rex. That's not Harrison. Rex Harrison was an actor.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Okay, Rex Harris.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Rex Reed.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Rex Reed. Oh, my God, Rex Reed. If two men held hands in a movie, he's like, "Best picture of the year."
--:-- Kara Swisher: Oh, that's bullshit. You are such an evangelist for gay women, which is a good thing.
--:-- Scott Galloway: No. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just said the sex likes of teenage girls. I mean, with Texas College, that's a really good show. Almost everyone there is great.
--:-- Kara Swisher: That's lesbian porn, isn't it? What are we talking about here? No, it is not. Anyway, everyone go see The Happiest Season. It's going to be Amanda and Kara's annual movie, along with Gladiator, which she's still not seen, which makes me question her commitment to me.
--:-- Scott Galloway: I took you off course. Your resolution is to invest and maintain a healthy relationship with your spouse. The Happiest Season with Kristen Stewart, with Amanda. That's how it's going to go on.
--:-- Kara Swisher: All right, Scott, stop dragging my favorite actress, Kristen Stewart. Those were some great questions. What was that movie, Adventureland? She was in a great movie about an amusement park. What's your favorite Kristen Stewart movie?
--:-- Scott Galloway: All of them. All of them.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Okay. There you go. I even like The Hunter, the one Snow White and the Huntsman. I can't believe I like that one. It was terrible.
--:-- If you've got a question you're curious about, go to nymag.com slash pivot and submit it for the show. Okay, Scott, that is the show. We'll be back next year. This is another year of Scott and Kara. How many years have we been together?
--:-- Scott Galloway: I think we've been together three years. Is that about right? We have a pretty good relationship, I have to say. I really enjoy it. This is arguably one of my best professional relationships. So let me say as we end the year, thank you very much, Kara. I think you're a wonderful role model, and I very much enjoy our relationship. I appreciate your generosity and your professionalism.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yes, thank you. I appreciate it also. I think it's been very successful. Where's my chair? I agree with you. It's been a very good relationship. I think we get along very well.
--:-- One of the things I want to stress with people is Scott and I don't always agree on things. We have disagreements. But the reason I think the successful sides were very funny is that we disagree with civility. I think that's critically important going forward. I think John talked about that. I think a lot of our guests talk about that. I think it's really important in this twitchy, angry world we live in to really start to listen to each other. That's really been the problem—everybody takes their "I am right" stance. We often change each other's minds, which I think is really good. Although mostly I'm right. Mostly.
--:-- Scott Galloway: All that is true. Anyway.
--:-- Kara Swisher: And also, let me just say thank you to all our fans. I get stopped a lot on the street and asked about Scott. All our fans, we love you. Stop us anytime you see us in any place. We love it. We love our fans, and we love that they love us too. We will do more. We can't wait to do more with you all in the future.
--:-- Scott Galloway: That's funny because they stopped me as well and asked me about me. Sorry, couldn't resist. Couldn't resist. Kara, read us out. Happy New Year to everybody.
--:-- Kara Swisher: Yes, happy New Year.
--:-- Scott Galloway: Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Mia Solario. Ernie Indratot engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or be an Android user. Check us out on Spotify or frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next Tuesday for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Join me in 2022 for a kinder, a kinder and more graceful world. Happy New Year.
