--:-- Pete Muntean: I've been around aviation and flying my entire life. And I think that there have has been a lot of innovation in making it so that people can sort of move more freely, that that there is more access to flying than ever. I mean, the airlines have really they've really sort of democratized air travel. But the experience is very unromantic and frankly, kind of sucks. They want us to pump our own gas. That's what it seems like. And so I think the big changes are probably going to come in things like getting through security faster and the TSA is experimenting with that by using facial recognition technology to speed the lineup. There are a lot of things to say there about the efficiency of pre-check and then to a greater extent clear. But that could sort of make things a little bit better. I think the thing that will also really change is how airplanes are fueled in the future and whether or not we can finally move forward to a future where there is more. Hydrogen. Or electrification. I mean, the sticky wicket here is that the batteries are really heavy and airplanes are predicated on being relatively light, especially when you carry so many people, 180 people or so on a 737 now when Southwest packs it full of people. So it will probably come faster to smaller airplanes. I fly small airplanes, so I'm particularly excited by that. And then sort of trickle down to larger commercial airplanes. Trucks are where most innovation is going on in electric. Yeah. I mean, maybe we'll see some sustainable aviation fuel not too far off in the future. That could be a five, 10-year sort of range thing. I mean, you know, one of the things that causes a lot of innovation in aviation, frankly, has been war. And a lot of aviation innovations came out of World War II and the Cold War. And really, a lot of that innovation sort of stagnated. So we need more war. Well, I'm not advocating that just in general. Please do that. I'm not trying to be a hawk here. No, no, I get it. The point is, you know, there have been big changes that have been brought on by sort of big government lifts in the space age. Now, you're right. It does seem sort of kind of lame. And so. Yeah. Planes just seem lame. I do. Scott and I both take a lot of planes. But one of the things is very human. Not enough pilots. Congress recently set aside $240 million to address the shortage. Talk about what caused this and will money at. What's the issue? They just don't like flying or because they're not going to be AI'd out of this. No, and there's a lot of concern about whether or not we replace two pilots with one pilot. There's a big push to do that in Europe. It probably won't happen in the U.S. But the pilot shortage is really caused by the fact that it's so expensive to learn how to fly. And there's been a really big shift in interest. I think, you know, kids now are inundated with a lot of different options and a lot of different interests and rabbit holes to go down. There's not sort of a space race and moon landings and things like that to sort of inspire young people. I go to air shows a lot and see a lot of really young people, but I think there's this gap to bridge that's still there, this sort of canyon where it's hard to sort of get people from seeing aviation and being jazzed about it to taking a flying lesson. And so I've taught people from zero. I love that more than anything. I love teaching people to fly. It's a really cool and unique experience, and it's a very joyful thing. But it does take a lot. It's hard. And there are a lot of easier things now. And I think a lot of, you know, when you think about young people, parents are saying, learn to code. But pilots do well, correct? No, they make great money. I mean, at first it's hard. And when you're struggling in the regional airlines, that's not a great way to – it's a tough living. But when you're a senior airline captain, you're making $300,000, $400,000, which is an incredible living. And in a lot of cases, you don't need a college degree. Right, and you get to travel. You know, I took a helicopter lesson, and then I thought better of it for the hell of humanity. A helicopter lesson? I did. I did. That's hard. Helicopters is hard. It's way hard. I don't even fly helicopters. I would love to, though. I know. I am a lesbian. I thought, you know what? I'm going to I'm now going to take them with Pete or some kind of flying. This is I'm going to strafe you. That's what I'm going to care. Whenever you want to take a lesson, you can always call me. I will. I will. I shall now, of course. But, you know, one of the things that is the consumer relationship with planes. There's the Southwest holiday meltdown in 2022 where the airline canceled over 16000 flights. I saw it all over CNN. It was probably you talking about it, highlighting the company's outdated processes. It just feels, even though you do everything on apps, and I really like using my, you know, my ticket on the thing, everybody does that. And just recently, there's been a lot more going through customs and everything else more quickly and the photos. But it still feels like old technology, like the way they do it. The behind the scenes stuff can be very old technology. And sometimes it's very manual because to get an airplane, to get a commercial airliner out of the gate and onto the ramp and to the runway is something that takes a lot of behind the scenes flight planning and figuring that is not something that is so automated. There is a lot more automation sort of being built into that. The downfall of Southwest was that their systems were so old. And in some cases, they were not really able to be in front of the problem. They had it was so manual and it wasn't so automatic that they had to sort of stop, press pause and then cancel flights for days and days and days before the system could catch up because planes and pilots and flight attendants and crews were all over the place and all spread out. Friends of mine are Southwest flight attendants, and they told me that one of them was on a completely empty flight during that meltdown. It was just two pilots and one flight attendant just to get the airplane from one place to another which would have incensed any passenger at that time because they stuck in Midway or Denver or what have you So there does need to be a lot of technological innovation there The airlines invest a ton of money in that. They don't want a repeat of having to shell out millions and millions in points and also to take their stock to take such a huge hit like they did after the Southwest meltdown. And so there does need to be a lot of change behind the scenes to make sure that these meltdowns are avoided. But the problem is the human problem. If there's a shortage of pilots and a shortage of airplanes, the compounding issues with Boeing, that will delay deliveries. You can hear the story that I'm spelling out here. There are going to be more and more airline cancellation delay meltdowns in the future. We're not out of the woods on that flight yet. Some more screamy people. Scott? I loved your examples around innovation with facial recognition. I think Clear is an amazing service. Also, to the government's credit, the TSA are global entry. I had such an incredible one of those aha tech moments where I went up to put to scan my passport and I scanned my passport. And rather than waiting a line, they just said Scott. And they just said and waved me through because they're clearly using facial recognition. I think Expedia does a great job. There's been sort of a lot of off plane innovation. innovation. In terms of the innovation itself, and as a disclosure, I'm an investor in this company. I'm an investor in a company called Boom Technologies, which is trying to create the first commercial supersonic plane since the Concorde. And to me, the real innovation I'm looking for is someone who spends 180 days a year away from my family. And the moment I'm on a plane, all I can think about is getting back. What do you think is the commercial viability of supersonic. Do you think it's going to come back? You know, I mean, the big trick is the sonic boom because it makes such a loud noise. And so this commercial supersonic transports have been essentially banned from the mainline U.S. for a long, long time because of the sonic boom, breaking glasses and causing damage to homes. And you would have to fly over relatively unpopulated areas, although it could be a very viable thing. I mean, I think if there's a way to sort of mitigate that, that would be huge. And, you know, the Concorde, I mean, it's crazy to think that we took this step back. The Concorde was getting from JFK to Heathrow in a flight that would typically take six hours. They do that in two and a half or three. And so, you know, it's like pressing fast forward. And then we stopped flying the Concorde because the expense of that airplane became so intense and the ability to just sort of keep it in the air was not making financial sense for these few airlines that flew it. So we really took a big step back. And so you're right. I mean, there is a real need to sort of take this step forward and sort of speed up air travel. I mean, the issue now is that a lot of things have replaced the need for a last-minute ticket between New York and London and New York and Paris because of Zoom and the viability of taking video calls. I mean, that technology has really sort of taken a dent out of the business traveler that was the bread and butter for airlines for a long, long time. So it'll be interesting to see if supersonic air transport and a real 21st century approach to that can actually come to market and will still have a market. So one of the things, I'm going to get into AI's role in improving aviation later, but in that vein, the idea of what to do about sustainability, you mentioned fuels, different fuels, and offsetting environmental impact of air travel. I've noticed recently they've asked me to pay the money to offset my travel. They want me to pay for it. I'm like, huh. It's like a click here if you want to give $5, whatever. I was like, I don't want to give you five more dollars. But Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg released a climate action plan a few years ago with a goal of achieving net zero carbon emissions in aviation by 2050. It seems rather ambitious on Mayor Pete's part. The FAA put over $90 million into airports across the U.S. in 2020 to achieve the net zero goal. Airports are getting lovelier, I have to say. There's been a redo in New York, at LaGuardia, all kinds of airports. A lot of them. I'm like, oh, this looks nice now, which needed it for sure. I just was in DCA. It looked a lot better. It still doesn't look great. America's Airport. I love this. America's Airport, right. Yeah, I was in the old, I was Terminal 1, which still feels like 1953. But what do you see, I mean, to deal with the sustainability and, Because we have to do that, obviously. Yeah, I mean, the climate crisis is a huge problem. And to be able to figure out a way to abate the emissions from aviation will be a really big challenge. Because of the sort of weight issue that I sort of laid out before, you know, carbon emissions from aviation are a really sort of small slice of the pie. They sort of account for about 3% of all CO2 emissions. But the way to get around that will be really difficult. And so it seems like SAF, sustainable aviation fuel, is the near term way to do that by using fuel made of biomass. I've been on a United Airlines flight, a demo flight that they flew between Chicago and DCA, where essentially half the plane was running on sustainable fuel. It will sort of take some regulatory behind the scenes minutiae to make that happen. And Virgin Atlantic just did this flight across the Atlantic where they flew a plane on entirely sustainable fuel. And so corn oil. Yeah. I mean, that's the way to do it. and spent fuel mass. I mean, it's a really pretty incredible thing. It's sort of a hard and esoteric thing to do for TV. It's not super visual, but it is really, really interesting. And so that is a way to sort of do it in the near term. I think electrifying aviation in the long term, that will be tough just because of the weight of the batteries. But it could happen in just maybe 30, 50 years. That could be the sort of timeline for that. Some of these electronic, electric vertical takeoff and landing companies, eVTOL companies, and they sort of envision a big drone, essentially, that you would fly in, sort of also colloquially called flying cars. That is a really sort of interesting and emerging space. There are a lot of sort of serial entrepreneurs that have gotten a lot of investment. And we're talking billions of dollars to sort of get these things off the ground. So it seems like short-haul flights could sort of see electrification in the near term. I know Uber had been in that game for a little bit. Yeah, they had. Makes sense, but I wouldn't get in one ever, I have to say. I get in electric cars all the time, but the flying— But you would fly a helicopter. I'm going to fly a helicopter now because I have a goal. I have a goal to smoke you, so. I've flown the flight simulator for a couple of these eVTons. It's way easier to fly than a helicopter. They say helicopters like balancing sort of a broomstick on your hand. Yeah. One of these eVTons, you let your hands off the controls, and it will hover automatically, which is incredible. Yeah. Also, it flies you in that case in a lot of the consumer ones. So but sustainability is an area they're working on or it's just like, oh, we can't figure this out because gravity. Well, no, I think sustainability is a place that they're working on. And I think that the airlines know what's on the horizon. They will get more and more criticized, just like when business tests show up at Davos. You know, that is that is not a great look for the business community at large. And so now it's really focused on what these huge corporations that are airlines will now figure out when it comes to sustainability going forward. Well, you know, it's all Taylor Swift's fault because she's a guy. My son has a whole theory about her flying and how she could be more efficient. Alex, of course. So, Pete, if you had mentioned five years ago, if you'd asked people in aviation or analysts to name two companies that were real innovators or great from a shareholder perspective, I think almost everyone's list would have included Boeing and Southwest. And both those stocks have been cut in half the last five years. Give us your view of who is really well managed, what airlines are doing a great job, and also include the manufacturers, including some of the private guys, the General Dynamics, the Bombardiers, the DeSaux, did I say that correctly, the Embraers. Who do you think across the entire aviation ecosystem? By the way, do as I say, not as I do. The aviation industry, as Warren Buffett said, if he could go back in time, he'd kill the Wright brothers. It is a terrible place to invest. The joke is if you want to make a million dollars in aviation, start a billion, right? You're with a billion. Yeah. Here's what I think. I think that, you know, I can't sort of name a lot of names here and I don't want to tell people how to invest. But there is a lot of interesting talk in the aviation space about sort of shimming a wedge into the Boeing Airbus domination of the transport category airplane world. which keeps a big opening now, makes a big opening now for someone like Embraer potentially. Oh, Embraer. But Embraer is owned by Boeing now, isn't it? No, I think it's their own thing. And so, I mean, but I would have to check on that. I think that I'm happy you're doing Googling for me. I thought they took a big investment on them. I can't remember. I think something like Embraer could have a really big opening here. I think when it comes to the airline space, the biggest innovators are sadly the ones who are the biggest legacy corporations. Delta does a lot of innovation. United does a lot of innovation. Delta does probably the most innovation on the customer experience. United does probably the most innovation on the operational experience. And I've been sort of behind the scenes and in the belly of the beast to sort of see how they make sure that they sort of move the chess pieces the right way every day. It's a really pretty incredible thing to see if you can see it in person. It's amazing. Just so you know Boeing and Embraer a Brazilian aerospace company proposed a joint venture in February 2019 to design build and sell commercial airlines In the deal Boeing agreed to purchase 80 but they terminated the deal There we go Sorry, citing COVID-19. They were going to invest $4.2 billion. There you go. So you're right, Pete. They're in arbitration. As somebody who has literally been molesting the planet for the last 30 years, I've spent time on every airline. Oh, wow. That's a vision. There's a distinction between domestic airlines and foreign carriers. I mean, there's just the moment I can get off a domestic or U.S. carrier onto a foreign carrier, especially those out of Southeast Asia and the Gulf. It's just an entirely different world. Is that solely a function of subsidies from the government where they just have more money to play with? or why is it there's so many amazing carriers that are outside of the U.S. when the U.S. tends to be much better with respect to sectors and technology? Competition. I mean, I think it's just competition. The foreign carriers have not had as big of an opening as they've had lately when it comes to taking routes from U.S. carriers. And so I think it's, you know, the real question here is whether or not the domestic carriers can sort of stay on top of that. And it seems like they want to just sort of expand, expand, expand, especially when it comes to international air travel. And that is something that's going to be a huge market and it's something that just continues to explode. I mean, it's so hard to find a ticket right now just to Europe. I mean, people from the U.S. are clamoring to travel abroad right now. And so, you know, I think that competition is really the big bottom line here. There's more competition to make money in the U.S. and there's a different level of competition abroad. Wouldn't that connote that if there was more competition domestically that the airlines would be better? I don't understand. That's a good point. I think it's all – customers are very motivated by the ticket price. And by price, yeah. Fair enough. Thanks, Pete. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk with Pete about the rise of facial recognition in airports. Not all journalism is the same. Take The Guardian. Our coverage has something unique. Fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say. So we're free to report the whole picture. We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe. Expose corruption wherever we find it. And give fresh perspective on everything. From wellness and soccer to culture, the climate and more. Read, watch and listen to The Guardian for free at theguardian.com. Scott, we're back with our special series on the future of travel. We're talking with CNN aviation and transportation correspondent Pete Muntean about the future of air travel. Let's talk specifically about airports. And actually, Scott brought up the idea of facial recognition, biometric technology, specifically facial recognition, is becoming more widespread at airports. 70% of global airlines are expected to use some sort of biometric ID by 2026, and 90% of airports are currently investing in technology. It's all over the place. That's what I see most of anyway. Delta has started its Delta digital ID at some airports. It allows pre-checked travelers to use facial ID instead of documents at bag drop in security. You see more and more of it. What do you think of – is this a good thing? Obviously, they've all got our faces now everywhere we go. But it's easier than dragging things out. It speeds things up. Totally. Yeah. I think that I talk to passengers about this and they sort of the opinion sort of vacillates like everyone has an iPhone. Everyone uses the facial recognition on their iPhone. So they I think it's become really sort of habitualized for a lot of people. But there's a sort of flip side of it. Like the TSA is a government entity and and privacy advocates say that the TSA would sort of implement if they continue to sort of expand facial recognition, the largest government use of facial recognition ever. And so there is there is definitely some chafing and concern there. The interesting thing right now is that the TSA is using this at about 84 some odd airports in the U.S. where you take your ID, put it in the machine. The machine has a camera on it. It matches your face to the ID and then you're done. Whereas the old version would be a human looking at your ID, then looking at you, making sure those two things match. They say that the level of accuracy is actually better than a human using the naked eye to match your ID with your actual face. And with passports, they don't they just look they know who I was. I didn't put my passport in. That's a little different because you opt in when you do global entry. Right. So the next thing. So they call that first version where you use your ID and put it in the machine. They call that one to one matching. You're providing the photo and the camera and the software matches it. There's something else called one to N matching. So it could match your photo that live you coming up to the camera with a government database of different photos of you. It's going to leave. So now we're kind of getting into this sort of minority report. Yeah. And so they could use something that's already in the government's database, like a passport photo or something else. Or they think you're not who they think you are. This feels racial issues. Yeah, so this gets a little tricky. And so the real question will be the execution. And so, so far, it seems like people are mostly OK with it. I think people just want to get through security quickly. It's their least favorite part of traveling. It's a government run operation. So I think people just want to get it done. And a lot you can opt out if you show up to something like this. And there's a there's a sign that says you can leave. Yeah, I think I'll bring my birth certificate on a piece of paper to you. So do you think we'll get to the point where airports are entirely automated for travelers from everything? You just go and you don't like like hotels are now, right? You just show up. I guess. But gosh, it seems so far off. I mean, and like Scott said, it's kind of an industry that can be a little slow to change. I mean, it would have to be – think about the airports that we've seen that have seen these major changes in their sort of aesthetics and there have been big rehabs and things like that. And airports have gotten a lot more modern. Those have been huge multibillion-dollar projects to make LaGuardia better, to make JFK better, to make DCA better, to have to really redesign airports. And one of the big redesign reasons at DCA was to make it so that security was a bit more centralized rather than every concourse having its own security. It would just be such a huge lift. The TSA joke internally is if you see one TSA checkpoint, you've seen one TSA checkpoint. They're all a little bit different. That's not a funny joke. And so, I know. TSA isn't funny. And so, they have to sort of streamline this thing, and it would be a long, I think, a long time coming. Okay, favorite airports. I'll go first. PBI and Hollywood Burbank. Your turn. Where's PBI? West Palm Beach. Best airport. You can be dropped off and be at the gate within 11 minutes. Yeah, Burbank, because it's so antiquated and fantastically old. It's cute, right? It's cute. It's adorable. Yeah. You think you're going to run into Bob Hope. Yeah. Yeah. John Wayne Airport. John Wayne Airport is close. John Wayne Airport is good. Yeah. All right. What's yours? What are yours, Pete? Mine is DCA, Reagan National Airport. They are so accommodating to me when I have to show up there to do live shots, one. So I have a vested interest there. Oh, that's different. But also, I mean, I think it's a very— They have a chili, a Ben's Chili Bowl. That's good. They have Ben's Chili Bowl. It's a very easy airport to navigate. And I think, you know, you can get through security and at your gate so quickly. And that's the big thing for me. My girlfriend loves to prod me for before they redid the Kansas City airport, which was designed way, way pre 9-11. It was one of those ideas where you drive up to your gate and just walk to it. It's like a semicircle design. It's the only time I've ever been paged at the gate. They held the flight for me. I like SFO, too. It's gotten better. Certain. The new terminals are really nice. But what's your least favorite one? Yeah, that's the better one. Gosh, least favorite. I'll go first. Miami. I win. Orlando. I'm not a big one. They're at Empanados. Yeah. Orlando. Because the security line is always crazy because it's a lot of people who don't travel very often. They travel one time a year to Disney World. LAX isn't great. Yeah, no. Yeah. I would say of all things is Mumbai. That was one crazy airport. Yeah. I was like, where am I? What is happening? I couldn't figure out the lines. And it was just, it was so chaotic. Maybe they've changed. Maybe they've changed. But U.S., the worst one. I think LAX. What a crazy friggin' airport that is. I didn't know we were going international. De Gaulle's pretty bad. Oh, okay. It's hard to drive around LAX. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to get in. Why is the U? Why is there always a... Yeah, right. You're always kind of caught in the airport. Caught in... Where's six? Oh, no, I'm in six, not one. Oh, fuck. Yeah. So, anyway, what are some other airport innovations we're going to see? Or airline... You can do airline, too, or airport down the pipeline. And what would you like to see? I would like to see... I mean, I'm really interested in... Because I cover all these incidents all the time. My phone rings at four in the morning and I'm out of bed to cover a turbulence incident or a runway incursion. I think that turbulence technology will continue to advance a lot. And this is something that's really interesting. You know, for a long time in aviation, the only way for pilots to really avoid turbulence ahead on the route was something called a ride report. So the previous pilot ahead of you on the route would say, I encountered turbulence here. You know, it was this type of severity. This it was occasional or heavy or whatever they would sort of radio that in to air traffic control and then it was only as good as the information you gave it And so now there are different technologies that will sort of grab and read through a sensor on an airplane where the turbulence is happening and upload that to the cloud And so it sort of makes the right report for you, and I think that will be really interesting, especially as we see more and more of these turbulence incidents rise with climate change. With more heat means more turbulence. Right. So we're going to get that. So it's really, you know, it is. Turbulence is something that's gotten worse than better, which is, of course. Yeah. I mean, we see these incidents. It's the top cause of injuries on commercial airlines for a long time. What would you like to see in an airport innovation? I feel like an invisible plane is what I would like. In an airplane innovation, I think the electrification is a really cool and emerging thing. Hydrogen. Hydrogen. I've been invited on one of those. Because I fly on small airplanes. You know, most of my flights, I fly aerobatics. And so most of my flying is like half an hour to 45 minutes long because it's strenuous and it takes a lot of energy. And so it's perfect for that because I don't need a ton of fuel. I go up and fly and do my thing and come back down and plug it in. And so that would be perfect. And I think to deal with the pilot shortage, it would also be perfect because it really takes the cost of renting an airplane from a couple hundred dollars an hour down to something so de minimis. So that would be huge. What about hydrogen? Because, again, I've just been invited on one of those. It's interesting. I mean, I think there's... Heels explosive. That is kind of an issue. I mean, they would sort of have to deal with that. But I think there are a lot of different factors. Aviation is a world that is a total different sort of risk set than any other form of transportation. They're always trying to get me in that hydrogen when I'm like,
