Joe and Mika's Mar-a-Lago Visit, Big Tech Derails KOSA, and Guest Kristy Caylor

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Narrator: I brought politics, sex, wicked. I am literally the Dave Chappelle of the cultural zeitgeist.

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, the end of my cold.

Scott Galloway: And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. How do I sound, Scott?

Scott Galloway: You sound better.

Kara Swisher: Better. Although it was an exhausting weekend. I had Saul's birthday, so we had a million three-year-olds running around. So I had plenty of time to rest.

Scott Galloway: That's a lot. That's a lot.

Kara Swisher: I know. It was. It was a lot. Where are you now?

Scott Galloway: Yo estoy en Mexico en Cabo San Lucas at the Baja Summit, where I'm meeting people who will say things like, "Yeah, after selling my company, I decided to take a year and really focus on my sleep." I'm not exaggerating.

Kara Swisher: Wait, what is a Baja Summit? What in the world?

Scott Galloway: That's a good question. It's a community. You know, God, everything's a community now. But these young, interesting people got together and bought a mountain somewhere and then started inviting people. The way I would describe it is "learning man." During the day, it's a bunch of TED Talks. And at night, everybody does X and listens to DJs. And you meet people in vertical farming who are trying to explain why they're poly or not poly.

Kara Swisher: Polycule.

Scott Galloway: A lot of guys in their 50s who, my sense is they're mostly rich kids who have pretend jobs, who wear beads and are like, I don't know, one twist of psychotic fate away from being Jim Jones. It feels very culty, but it's also very interesting and they get good speakers. And it's also a lot of fun. Everybody's really friendly. It's an interesting thing. It's quite unique.

Kara Swisher: Wait, how did you get invited to this young person's thing?

Scott Galloway: Academy Festival. So I don't know if you've heard, but I speak quite a bit. And they invited me to Summit at Sea two years ago. And I did that.

Kara Swisher: Oh, it's these people.

Scott Galloway: I really enjoyed it. And they said, "Do you want to do the Cabo thing?" And I have speaking gigs out on the West Coast. And rather than giving me a speaking fee, which they don't do, they let me bring a bunch of people. So I brought a bunch of my friends who, like me, are in their arrested adolescence midlife crisis. And so we're all partying down here. It's a ton of fun. I'm really enjoying myself.

Kara Swisher: So man-children, in other words. You're not listening to any of the speeches, are you?

Scott Galloway: I don't go to other people's content, let's be clear. I'm not interested in what anyone else has to say.

Kara Swisher: Is there anything you learned from it?

Scott Galloway: I had a really illuminating conversation. I had a two-hour lunch, Arnold Palmer sojourn meetup with Jessica Yellen. And she always helps me understand what's going on in the world and the media. I find her very thoughtful and very interesting.

Kara Swisher: Oh, that's good.

Scott Galloway: I listened to Peter Diamandis talk about how we're going to be growing ears in our refrigerators and all that other crazy shit that's not going to happen.

Kara Swisher: Oh, Jesus.

Scott Galloway: And the woman who runs OnlyFans spoke. That was sort of interesting. Creator economy, if you will. That has nothing to do with life extension, but okay, sure. A lot of biohacking. I'm pretty sure you would hate it.

Kara Swisher: I would hate it.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, you would hate it. But it's fun. And I'm open-minded these days. You kind of have to be, don't you?

Kara Swisher: We got a lot to get today, including how Trump cabinet picks are moving markets. Plus, our friend at Pivot is Kristy Caylor, the founder and CEO of Trashie. That's kind of your name, my name for you. And clothing recycling and rewards platform. We've got a lot going on. You saw Joe and you over here in the real world. Joe and Mika shared on Morning Joe that they went down to Mar-a-Lago, speaking of trips and sojourns. I don't think, unless they were hanging out with Elon, I'm not sure there were any psychedelics happening. But to meet Trump face to face for the first time in seven years, to quote, "restart communications," even though she, I think he called her "dumb as fuck" or something like that. And he was passing around information about Joe killing one of his aides. But let me have Mika try to explain what they thought was important to meet with Trump. Let's listen.

[Audio clip plays]

Mika Brzezinski (clip): And for those asking why we would go speak to the president-elect during such fraught times, especially between us, I guess I would ask back, why wouldn't we? Five years of political warfare has deeply divided Washington and the country. We have been as clear as we know how in expressing our deep concerns about President Trump's actions and words in the coarsening of public debate. But for nearly 80 million Americans, election denialism, public trials on January 6th were not as important as the issues that moved them to send Donald Trump back to the White House with their vote. Joe and I realized it's time to do something different. And that starts with not only talking about Donald Trump, but also talking with him.

[Clip ends]

Kara Swisher: What do you think of this move? A lot of people are giving clapback, largely because they were like, "Really?" At some point, I'm like, "Calm down, Joe and Mika, about Donald Trump." But it's a pretty big shift for them, given how loud they were. Essentially calling him a fascist every morning on morning television.

Scott Galloway: I think they're doing exactly what they should be doing. He's the president. They command the highest rated show on MSNBC for four hours each morning. They talk a lot about politics. So to engage with the freely elected president, I'm surprised at the pushback. I think that's exactly what they should be doing. And what am I missing here?

Kara Swisher: I think they were particularly vehement. It's interesting. A lot of people who were like, "He's such a fascist, he's a dictator," are now going the opposite way. So who do you believe? Did they ever believe that? And he did say some pretty salty things about him, beyond belief salty. I think she called him "dumb as a prick." I forget what he called her. Something about her facelift, this and that. It was pretty ugly. But they didn't say what happened at this meeting. If they're going to be real reporters, I get it. Otherwise, I'm not really clear. They didn't say what happened at the meeting. It was on background. But it just seemed they were super vehement, and now they're shifting rather quickly. But I guess so.

Scott Galloway: Well, the far right, when people who are the sycophants in the media, they get criticism. In my opinion, I like Joe and Mika because I think it's great TV. I think they just do a fantastic job. Two, I think they haven't pulled any punches. They call it as they see it. And I think it reflects well both on the president and on them. He's the president. If they're going to have a four-hour show every morning and talk about politics, to have a direct dialogue with him I think is important. They're putting their egos aside. He said some insulting things. Fine. He's the president. We'll go down there and talk to him. And I also think it reflects well on him to a certain extent that he's engaging with people in the media who've been critical of him. So I see this as a feature, not a bug. I don't understand why people seem so triggered by it.

Kara Swisher: I just think when someone's... It's interesting because I know you talked to Charlamagne tha God, but he was talking about this. He called Donald Trump fascist, and then he was sort of perplexed why Biden would be so friendly, given he went on and on about it. I think it was about credibility and believability. If you really think this, what are you doing? I think it's a good thing to discuss. They felt like a branch of the Democratic Party to me. That's what they felt like when they were going on and on. I don't think they're journalists at all. I think they're discussioners or commentators or something.

Scott Galloway: Commentators.

Kara Swisher: But then actually, I mean, she spent a lot of time with people who had been dying of abortions because of Roe. I don't know. It just, they were, I felt like they were a branch of the Democratic Party. So that's just me. I guess I heard them differently than you might have.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, but you're... I think if the president's people called Kara Swisher and said, "We'd like you to come down and talk to the president," I think they called him, but go ahead. Or whatever it might be. I think you do a service to the country and to people to go down, be Kara Swisher or be Joe and Mika, ask hard questions and try and engage. We need more if, I don't want to call it forgiveness or grace or generosity, but we need more reasons to interact with one another as opposed to just writing each other off.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, that's true. It's just these two, they were super in Trump's tank and then they were super anti and now they're like... I want to know what happened at the fucking meeting. That's all. I don't believe why they're keeping it from us. And so I don't know. It feels a little bit like Comcast wants to play nice because he's threatened to take away the broadcast licenses of NBC and CBS, I believe. That's why I think people are doing that. He's made all kinds of... I have to say, I do think Charlamagne has it right. It's like, let's hope he's not a fascist, and if he is, call it out. But what he said was fascist, the things he's been saying are. And so, I don't know. It's just weird. They have a very liberal following and have been particularly vehement, so the shift was rather dramatic.

Scott Galloway: Fair enough.

Kara Swisher: Okay. This is interesting. I love this. See, I like humor in dealing with these people. The Onion's acquisition of Alex Jones's Infowars has been paused while a federal bankruptcy judge reviews the auction process. The parody site was named as the winner of the bankruptcy auction last week, but lawyers for Jones complained about how the auction was handled. A group of Sandy Hook families who filed the defamation lawsuit against Jones agreed to accept smaller payouts to increase the value of The Onion's bid. A hearing to review the auction process will be held this week. The CEO of The Onion parent company has said the sale is still underway as part of the standard process. I love this. I thought this was very perfect. It's a great way to use satire to buy up Alex Jones's stuff. I don't know. I kind of like this one. I mean, this was the first time I thought if there is a God, he has a sense of humor.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, exactly. I love this. And I actually thought about, I wish I'd known or been more on top of this. I'm really curious what it went for because it gets a lot of traffic. I think to turn it into a nonprofit talking about gun control or for a podcast that's on the left to take it and just absorb the traffic. Supposedly also with the purchase, you get a lot of supplements. I guess that's how they made their money.

Kara Swisher: Seriously, you get supplements?

Scott Galloway: Anjan was saying we don't know what to do with it. I don't know if... It sounds to me like the auction is probably going to go through. The fact that it was filed by Jones' people just seems like grievance or whatever it is.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I just love it. This is how you show... I think The Onion has gotten really good since Ben took over. I think it's really fun. I think he's having a lot of fun with it. I think it's humor. The right spent a lot of time, did a lot of humor stuff, and it might as well be funny, right? And biting and cutting in a really clever and witty way. I think it's a really nice way to, especially this son of a bitch, he deserves all the embarrassment and shit. But just being angry at him is not enough. To mock him, I think, is always the best way. I love mockery, Scott.

Scott Galloway: Well, it's like, what can you do about it? This is a vile person who has brought more despair to people who are already grieving tremendously. I mean, this really is a vile human being.

Kara Swisher: You know, I think you should die, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Well, then, and this is something I've struggled with my entire life, the difference between being right and being effective. And I like to virtue signal by crying on TikTok or scream on Twitter about Alex Jones. You know what's more effective? Making a shit ton of money and then going and buying his assets out of bankruptcy.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: That's more effective.

Kara Swisher: Exactly.

Scott Galloway: If you really want to push back on this stuff, then don't go on Twitter, send some money to Planned Parenthood. Don't cry into TikTok, identify some candidates who you think you could get behind and start bringing some presence to.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's, you know, to a certain extent, the Peter Thiels and the Bill Gates of the world, they get the fucking assignment. They're not on social media screaming. Although lately they are.

Scott Galloway: Did you hear they're all victims?

Kara Swisher: I didn't see that.

Scott Galloway: They're the resistance.

Kara Swisher: No, they're the counter-elite is the term I like. The counter-elite.

Scott Galloway: The counter-elite. I'm worth $13 million, but I'm the counter-elite. I'm the resistance. They're such rebels. They are the Death Star, the rebels. Such a rolling stone, isn't he?

Kara Swisher: They're so fucking... See, that's what they're doing now. They're becoming like the way liberals annoyed them, right? They're counter-elites. They're the resistance. They're the fighters. Give me a fucking break, you rich fucks.

Scott Galloway: I love this. I love what The Onion's doing. It's time for us to start being mocking bros. That's what I say. I've been listening to a lot of bros because I had to listen to Charlamagne's podcast with Andrew Schulz, who I do not think is funny. I think he's a horse patoot.

Kara Swisher: Really? I think he's great.

Scott Galloway: I don't know. He's loud. I would think you would like him.

Kara Swisher: I see the appeal. Let me just say, I see the appeal. I do, but I think we can do better.

Scott Galloway: Anyway, here's another thing. Speaking of mockery, unfortunately, Mark Zuckerberg has given his wife another gift. Let's just listen, and we will decide if we like it or not.

[Audio clip plays - acoustic cover of "Get Low" by Mark Zuckerberg and T-Pain]

Kara Swisher: Oh my. It was an acoustic cover of "Get Low" by Mark Zuckerberg and T-Pain, which Zuckerberg recorded as an anniversary gift to his wife. Part of me loves it. The other part is, can't you just get her like, I don't know. On Instagram, he said the song was playing when he first met his wife at a college party. I kind of like it, and yet it hurts my ears. How do you feel?

Scott Galloway: I love it. I think it should be private. He loves to perform it with that... remember the statue of her in the backyard? But when you do that, it's not a gift for her. It's a gift for you. You want people to look at you giving someone a gift. And so I love this. I think it's hilarious. I think it's great. I think it's important to, with relationships, look, women love gifts more than men. And women have a special relationship with cocaine, jewelry, and gifts. And if you're a guy and you don't recognize those things, you don't understand women. And maybe you don't get jewelry, but trust me on this, you need to buy a woman in your life that's important, your mother, your spouse, your girlfriend, jewelry. And that's part of the assignment. Things you don't get, you don't need to get. You just need to get that they really like these things.

Kara Swisher: But you like the song. You just would like... He does perform everything. He has to be like...

Scott Galloway: It's fucking adorable. And if it's for him and some of their friends and he does it at a party, but putting it out, I think it just cheapens it a little bit. But let me, on the whole, more power to you, brother. You got the money. You got someone, you're in a relationship. You love that person. You've done something creative and unique. I think we need more of that, not less of it.

Kara Swisher: Mm-hmm. What would you make for me?

Scott Galloway: I knew you, I swear, I knew you were gonna ask that.

Kara Swisher: Come on, what would you sing for me?

Scott Galloway: I think I would do some sort of bad karaoke of "Rock Lobster" or "Dance Mess Around." Has anyone seen... Would you be naked?

Kara Swisher: No.

Scott Galloway: I wouldn't want to upset you. I've been working on a lot lately, though, on the testosterone. Naked, I look 59 and 7'8". It's all coming together. Since the scrotum left, it's gone from sad elephant to really healthy anteater.

Kara Swisher: I feel like there needs to be a performative performance by you at me to show your love. I feel unloved.

Scott Galloway: Oh, no. This is do as I say, not as I do. Whenever I do anything nice for other people, I want everyone else to know about it.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, right.

Scott Galloway: You know, whenever I give money, I want to make sure that they put out a press release.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I definitely have the same problem as him, but I can recognize it because I suffer from the same thing. Mark, keep being awkward. Keep being awkward. You be you, my man. You be you, my man. That's all I got to say. You showed those people in high school. When they wrote in your yearbook, "Stay cool." You aren't, but you got really fucking rich. That's even better. You're leaning into uncool. You keep doing that. And by the way, you can't sing. Okay, but that's okay. It's the thought that counts.

Scott Galloway: Anyway, let's get right to our first big story. The post-election Trump bump has come to an end with the markets closing lower last Friday and the S&P 500 and Nasdaq seeing their biggest one-day losses in two weeks. The downturn is being attributed in part to President-elect Donald Trump announcing RFK Jr. as his Health and Human Services Secretary. Shares of major vaccine and drug makers, including Moderna, Pfizer, and AstraZeneca, tumbled in the wake of the news. What do you think? Shares of Eli Lilly and Novo Nordisk fell. He's against Ozempic, by the way, as processed food stocks, including PepsiCo, Coke, and General Mills. The markets were also reacting to Jerome Powell saying the Fed is in no hurry to make further interest rate cuts. What's your take on this? And the pick in general. He says he wants to make America healthy again. They have to stop with this "Make America whatever again." America was never healthy. Let's start with that.

Kara Swisher: RFK Jr., which I loved eating at McDonald's on the private plane with Trump and Elon Musk. Someone likened it to making the cop take the drugs just to make sure he's not a cop.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, that was it. Making the new guy do drugs to make sure he's not a cop.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. He looked in such pain. What a fucking asshole. He talks about McDonald's being poison and then he's sitting there with one. What a dumbass that guy is. Anyway, what do you think of this?

Scott Galloway: It's like when you're in Vegas and a pro asks you to show your genitals to make sure you're not a cop. I just heard about this. I wouldn't know firsthand, but I've heard that happens.

Kara Swisher: Big Ed and the Twinster. Anyone wants to see Big Ed and the Twins? That's fine with me. I'm waiting for that "Rock Lobster" video. There you go. I want that for my birthday. It's December, my birthday, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Look, the market has been remarkably right, and I see that as a negative four-licking indicator, because Moderna on word that Kennedy would be head of HHS was down 21%. Pfizer down seven, Eli Lilly. I mean, this is tens of billions, if not even maybe over 100 billion in market value drawdown because this guy has a reputation. He can't fool anybody. He is crazy anti-vax, with the operative term there being crazy. It's very disappointing because what I would argue is that whenever the far left and the far right come together on something, it's a really bad fucking idea, whether it's reckless spending, anti-Semitism.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, you're right. He's left. He's so far left. He's right.

Scott Galloway: Well, that's what happens. They meet at crazy. And actually, the anti-vax movement originated on the far left. "Don't let corporations put crazy shit into your body." And then the far right picked it up because for some reason, science and experts became associated with the left. And I would argue, and I think there's real evidence here, that everyone is so fucking fascinated by innovation and metal chopsticks grabbing a rocket and photo sharing apps and GPS, and rightfully so, it creates a lot of economic value. But if you were going to talk about how we come together as a species and use communication and education and cooperation to accomplish something really incredible, the most positive innovation of the last couple hundred years I would put forward is vaccines. And there is nothing that has come out of our great academic institutions that's been privatized, that has capitalist fuel, that also government weighs in and says, "We can distribute these things in low-income areas," that have saved more lives than vaccines. Maybe food distribution? I don't know what it would be or pesticides maybe. In my view, vaccines are arguably some of the best things ever. I am so pro-vax. If anyone's holding edibles or vaccines, meet me in the bathroom and I'll show you that the only thing better than feeling high is not feeling unwell.

Kara Swisher: He tries to be cute about it and says, "I have questions." And I don't think that's the case. I think he's done more damage. I call him best friend of measles and polio. I think Zeke Emanuel, who's the brother of Ari and Ram, appointing RFK Jr. to the HHS is a big mistake.

Scott Galloway: Well, I'll admit he has a few important ideas on chronic disease and processed food. I mean, yeah, everybody, we all think processed food sucks. These are overshadowed by his problematic views on vaccines that threaten to walk back major progress we've made. Above all, pointing people like RFK Jr., who will bend to Trump's every whim, is guaranteed to be truly dangerous.

Kara Swisher: I think he's right. I think that's 100% right. We can agree with some of the things, but this guy is anti-vax. I'm sorry, all you people. He's not questioning it. He's truly anti-vax. And stop pretending it's otherwise.

Scott Galloway: What do you think of the GLP drugs, the impact on U.S. economies and global economies? I mentioned drug maker Novo Nordisk and Lilly saw shares drop. Are people going to listen to him here enough to do lasting damage to the industry? Kennedy has been critical of things like Ozempic in the past, calling it a drug that will, quote, "gladden the wallets of big pharma execs" and thinks everyone should rely on eating better produce, I guess. That's his thing, which I think everyone should eat more produce, Robert, but seriously.

Kara Swisher: The really upsetting thing about RFK Jr. is that, in my view, he is so good on a number of issues. He talks about the unholy alliance between the food industrial complex, PepsiCo, General Foods, McDonald's, they want to get you addicted.

Scott Galloway: Let's go meta on this. So when our species left the savanna, there was a dearth of sugary, salty, or fatty foods. It was really hard to come across these things. And so when you found them, you gorged. There was an absence of safe, free play because there was always threats everywhere around. There was an absence of mating opportunities. 80% of women on this planet have reproduced, only 40% of men. So when you get industrial production of all of these things, people develop addictions to food, addictions to gambling, addictions to porn. And what GLP-1 has done, as far as I can tell, is it's like scaffolding on our instincts. And it says, "Look, even though you can find more calories than you can consume based on industrial production, almost anyone can eat as much as they want, they can gorge, we're going to turn off that signal." And people on these drugs report that they're drinking less alcohol, they're biting their nails less. What's even more amazing about these things is not only are they eating less shitty food, the people on these drugs are eating more fruits and vegetables and grains. It's as if this thing is actually calibrating what's good for you and what is bad for you. And when you look at the one thing Americans share other than a Netflix subscription and Amazon Prime, it's that 70% of us are either obese or overweight. And obesity is the epidemic that kills more people every year than COVID ever did. But because there's so much money involved from large corporations and hospital clinics and knee replacement and kidney dialysis and statins and pharmaceuticals and McDonald's, we pretend that you're finding your truth. No, you're not. You're finding fucking diabetes. And he is very good on this issue. And then all of a sudden it's like, huh? What you want is this bullshit that he said repeatedly, that the best thing you can do when you see a woman with a newborn is go up to her and say, "Don't get her vaccinated."

Kara Swisher: Jesus Christ, really? Do you know his cousin, Carolyn Kennedy, who's the U.S. ambassador to Australia? I didn't know that. She doesn't tend to speak up, but she said a lot of negative things about him this week. There's a whole story on it. She goes, "Others are just getting to know him, but she said everything he says, I don't think most Americans share them." He's denied, he's against vaccination. Just so you know, styling himself as a vaccine safety activist who questions corporate influence on science. His critics say he's promoted conspiratorial ideas about public health intervention, widely viewed as one of the most important advances. He's embraced a debunked theory that vaccines can cause autism. He's questioned COVID-19 vaccinations. He's also been linked to a measles outbreak in Samoa. And, you know, Carolyn Kennedy, the daughter of JFK and Jackie Onassis, said her family was united in terms of our support for public health sector and infrastructure, the greatest admiration for the medical profession. And Bobby Kennedy has a different set of views. It's very unusual for her to speak out. His whole family says he's as crazy as can be.

Scott Galloway: I just hope he comes clean, and I'm being serious here about steroid use. I've seen him without a shirt on. He's 70. That guy's on HGH or some sort of, or DECA. He's on some sort, and by the way, I'm not sure, I'd love to hear him defend it and talk about it, but he doesn't want a needle around a vaccine to stave off polio or rubella or measles, but he'll inject human growth hormone to look jacked at 70. So I would... and by the way, he might have... I take creatine and it's brain protective and heart protective. I'm not... hormone replacement therapy, I think is, they're finding it's a very positive thing for both men and women. A lot of people say that the biggest instance of malpractice was discouraging women from hormone replacement therapy. So I'd love to know his views on it, but just be clear, as someone who works out a lot and is beginning to look like Monty Burns despite every fucking thing I'm trying to do, that guy is on some form of steroids.

Kara Swisher: Can you just say "allegedly"? Just say "allegedly" right there.

Scott Galloway: That guy, I mean, I would argue, I would speculate that he might be in fact taking some sort of human growth. And I would just like him to speak openly about it and get his views on it because they seem to me somewhat contrary to this notion, but don't put...

Kara Swisher: I do think that picture did a lot of damage, honestly.

Scott Galloway: Which one?

Kara Swisher: With him at the McDonald's box, the Big Mac. How the fuck could he do that after he called it poison? What a dumbass. He's just such a dumbass. Anyway, should investors be worried about these Trump cabinet picks impacting markets? The stocks of major defense contractors also dropped last week following Pete Hegseth's announcement. God, the Washington Post wrote a story about him, and he looks very dangerous as a person.

Scott Galloway: Why do you say that? I'm curious. I mean, I'm asking for an answer, not as a comment. Why do you think he seems dangerous?

Kara Swisher: I was reading the story. He looks like—look, this guy, whatever happened in that encounter with that woman, I think he attacked her. This is my feeling, Pete. This is what it looks like. He was already downstairs bothering women when this woman came and got him, right? That he doesn't even question. He sounds like—he reminds me of a sexual harasser. He reminds me of—I've had that happen to me in college. He looks like the guy in college. He has the tone and ability of—every woman looks at him and goes, cover your drink when you're around this fella. That kind of thing. And between him and Matt Gaetz, they feel like weird sexual aggressors.

Kara Swisher: But, you know, whatever Pete Hegseth said, the fact that he paid off a woman—it's just like Bill O'Reilly. "Oh, I just paid her off because he did." And then there were tapes where he did say the things she said he said, right? So they're all just such weird—this whole gang of the GOP are all fucking each other down there at Mar-a-Lago. It's weird. It's a weird group of people. I'm sorry. There's the rumors of Corey Lewandowski and Kristi Noem. There's the rumors of—they all seem like Caligula down there. I don't know. It just—yikes. They talk about liberals being loose. I feel like they're creepy. And then the guy who actually grabs some man's nuts. It's always something.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, the only thing is, I would push back a little bit. I think it's unfair to conflate Pete Hegseth with Bill O'Reilly, where Fox paid some woman $20 or $30 million after supposedly he was forcing her to watch gay porn and then describe it to him. You don't pay someone $20 or $30 million just to make a nuisance lawsuit go away. Matt Gaetz supposedly has a witness, a credible witness, that says she witnessed him having sex with a minor. That's pretty serious shit. And in the case of Pete, first off, he served very honorably. Twenty years, I think two Bronze Stars. He really is a decorated service person.

Kara Swiger: Got it.

Scott Galloway: Hold on, let me finish. He's absolutely unqualified for this job. He does not have the executive management experience or the gravitas that would qualify him to oversee 3 million people. I agree with you there. He did pay somebody off to drop a suit. I don't see—I got to think that's going to go away because it doesn't accomplish what it's supposed to. You can see a scenario where someone accuses you of something and to make it go away, you just pay them. Let me be clear: I don't think he's qualified for the position, but I do think it's unfair to compare him to what Matt Gaetz is undergoing.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, okay. I mean, the whole gang of them. It's just something's happening down there, something in the water. But what do you—I'm curious, I don't understand. What is the Machiavellian, weird 5D or 0D chess that's going on with putting Gaetz forward for AG? Do they think if they offer a blood offering and Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski convince some people—and supposedly there's 20 or 30 Republicans who've said no fucking way—then does it make some of their less crazy but still grade-A crazy picks more likely to get through? What's the strategy here?

Scott Galloway: I think so, unless there isn't one. He just feels like it. He was on the plane at the last minute and he had another person for AG, and then suddenly it was Matt Gaetz. I think sometimes it's just his whim at the moment. He just wants to do what he wants to do.

Kara Swisher: Here's another one. Trump has yet to name his treasury secretary, though he's reported meeting several contenders at Mar-a-Lago. This is a critical job, a critical friggin' job. He said he wants someone big for the role. Apollo's Mark Rowan is in the mix now. I have a lot of regard for him, as does his former Fed governor Kevin Warsh, another very qualified person. Elon Musk threw his support behind Cantor Fitzgerald CEO Howard Lutnick over hedge fund manager Scott Bessent, who many people on Wall Street—I have been checking—think is highly qualified. And then ex-post over the weekend, just because Elon threw his—Lutnick has a terrible reputation compared to Scott Bessent and is obviously a look-at-me kind of fella, right? This is lunacy, the way they're deciding this important job. And the same thing with the AG. That one, I think he was on the plane with Matt Gaetz and just decided, let's fuck with the liberals. I honestly don't know. Loyalty? I don't know.

Scott Galloway: But I would argue that the nominees for treasury secretary are incredibly impressive and competent and normal compared to the nominees across all the other stuff. They're all—I mean, Howard Lutnick, I know people have some issues with, but generally speaking, these are talented, smart, accomplished people who you can imagine in the role. I'm a big fan of Mark Rowan. I've spoken at Apollo conferences where he's spoken. This guy is a blue flame thinker.

Kara Swisher: He is. That's why I'm like, okay, great. Yeah, sure.

Scott Galloway: And also, the reality is—now, granted, Kennedy could do a lot of damage with HHS, but you're going to have pretty serious checks and balances. The reason why this position is so important is regardless of policy, if the economy doesn't grow, everything just gets harder to do. The adult in the room needs to be the person around economic policies, in my view. Everyone says Taylor Swift was Person of the Year last year. No, it wasn't. It was Jerome Powell. These people have more impact day-to-day on people. I think America is a platform for two things primarily, and this is where I think Democrats have fucked up because they lost this: one, defending our shores and our citizens; and two, creating the atmospherics of prosperity so you can develop economic security for you and your family. If you want more rights given to people, help them get more money. That's the easiest way for them to gain rights.

Scott Galloway: And the thing I also really like about Mark Rowan, although I have no influence over these picks, is I thought in contrast to some other famous billionaires, he handled the anti-Semitism on campus really well. He was forceful yet dignified. He had a problem with the president of Penn. He got his big game trophy on the head. And then he went quiet. He didn't start talking about reforming education. He wasn't Bill Ackman.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, he wasn't. "Look at me, look at me." He's like, "This is my objective. I'm upset. They fixed it or they took action. And now he's gone back to his day job." So this guy strikes me as having a decent amount of humility. Forceful yet dignified. And I'm telling you, we want a high-IQ person in this role.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, he really is. If anyone's spent any time with him, he's really a sharp cookie. He really is. He's well regarded. That would be a good, serious pick. I would like him in a Democratic or a Republican administration, someone like that. Lutnick seems like a horse's patoot. I'm sorry. He just does. He's always on. He loves being on camera and he strikes me as an unserious person in that regard.

Kara Swisher: I get his reputation, but having checked, I've called like a dozen people. Nobody likes him. They like Scott Bessent. And I think the issue around Scott Bessent is that he worked for Soros, which—you either work for Soros or a bunch of different people as a great investor. That's what you're holding against him? So he's a little independent. I think that's their issue. I think that's why Elon wants someone like Howard Lutnick he can push around.

Scott Galloway: I know a lot of people work for George Soros. When it comes to money, George Soros does not suffer fools.

Kara Swisher: That's correct. The Soros funds are very serious, very competent, and they aggregate outstanding professionals. Having worked for George Soros, it's not a political position. He was there to just make George richer. That's what he's there for.

Scott Galloway: I know, but I'm just telling you, that's what's going down over there.

Kara Swisher: But I do think one of the—it's critically important, this is a serious question. I think they're trying to get someone like Mark Rowan or Scott Bessent, who to me are very serious selections, to say yes on tariffs. They may not be able to quite as easily. I think this has to be a person who makes the calls in a way that's not—it has to be political, but not—you know what I mean—in the interest of the economy, according to them and their theories.

Scott Galloway: How do I make long, adult, non-decisions that are going to help? I mean, here's the issue. Prosperity is similar to the future. It's just not distributed equally. How does this person make really good decisions that ensure we can argue over a bigger pie? We're always going to argue, but the pie grows. And this person has to absorb a massive amount of data and also make hard decisions. Chairman Powell, raising interest rates 500 points, angered almost everybody. Elizabeth Warren was pissed off about it. People on the far right were pissed. And he's like, "No, this is what we got to do, folks." And as a result, inflation came down faster in the United States than in any G7 country, and it's already back to its target level. That kind of leadership, intellect, and quite frankly, folks, even though America seems to be against it, expertise and people who have PhDs who actually studied this shit.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, this is the only substantive conversation around his nominees. Other than, "Wait, let me get this—someone saw him having sex with a minor. Let me get this—he's against vaccines." It's all Dancing with the Stars. And then we go to PBS for a few minutes. I'm like, what are you doing? Frittering away your chance here. He's just trolling and pranking, and he's got to cut it out. He's got to cut it out on this serious topic that he really wants to be historically—he's still a terrible person, Donald Trump, but he could help a lot of people.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Big Tech leads the charge to derail the Kids Online Safety Act. And we'll speak with a friend of Pivot, Kristy Caylor, about how her company is reducing clothing waste. You know I'm a big recycler in the era of fast fashion.

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Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back. A campaign against the Kids Online Safety Act is in full swing as the bill has been stalled in the House for months. A new report from the Wall Street Journal details Big Tech's willingness to dump cash into lobbying efforts and lean into culture war issues. With liberal lawmakers, lobbying efforts focused on concerns the bill could censor LGBTQ youth, although I think they fixed that part of it. And with conservative lawmakers, the focus is on potential for censorship of anti-abortion positions. Meta and Alphabet have spent nearly $90 million in the last three years lobbying about a range of issues, including KOSA. KOSA would assign platforms a duty of care, which would hold them accountable for addressing issues like mental health disorders, bullying, and sexual exploitation.

Kara Swisher: Also at the same time, Brendan Carr has been over at the FCC. He wrote part of Project 2025. He's also very anti-tech. So interesting times. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the Trump administration because it has a very strong anti-tech band, especially J.D. Vance. So do you think they'll hold firm? Are they going to be more empowered once Trump takes office? I'm not so sure. I think they may be wishing for the Biden administration again. So what do you think? $90 million they're spending.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I just—look. I thought we were going to get this one. Now I'm not as sure. There's been 40 congressional hearings on child safety and social media, and there's been zero laws. And this is not perfect, but perfect is not on the menu. And I thought we were going to get this. And now it looks as if the delay and obfuscation and the weaponization of our government and the fact that ByteDance has one lobbyist for every 11 members of Congress. Meta has one for every eight. Amazon has more full-time paid lobbyists living in D.C. than there are sitting U.S. senators. Money has always played a role here, but essentially Big Tech has really mastered the art. I think there's a lot of backroom deals that involve our security apparatus.

Scott Galloway: But 5% of kids under the age of 18 qualify as being addicted to drugs or alcohol. 5%. And that's a lot. If you know 10 households with two kids, that means somewhere there's a kid who's an addict to drugs or alcohol. With social media, 27% qualify as addicted. There's never been—I don't think there's ever been an entity, a sector, or a private company that has ever been this guilty of addicting our children than Big Tech. And yet there's absolutely no laws. So I got excited that this seemed like it was going to go through. And now it feels like Big Tech is winning again. Every day they have their lobbyists out there giving money, playing golf, coming up with thoughtful reasons around why you should express your concerns. And now it feels like it's at risk. I find this all very discouraging, but I don't feel like I have the insight to handicap it. What do you think is going to happen?

Kara Swisher: I think they just don't want any regulation whatsoever. I think they want no laws whatsoever. And so they're nitpicking every single one of these laws. There's been lots of problems with KOSA, no question about that. But they've managed to do different things to it. There's not going to be any rule that's going to be good. And that's the point. They don't want any law. They don't want anything at all. They don't want a privacy law. They don't want antitrust renewed. They will hold this stuff up as much as they can. And it's going to take serious bipartisan work together, away from all the censorship versus hurting LGBTQ youth—both of which I'm concerned with, by the way, more the young gay people—but they don't want anything passed. They don't want a duty of care. Every other industry has a duty of care in some way, whether it's an airplane or a pharmacy, big pharma. Maybe they manipulate things, but can we get one on the friggin' books and then figure it out from there? They just don't want any slight bit of edge to get them to stop, and they will do anything it takes.

Kara Swisher: This has been a historical thing for these people. And they'll do it as long as our regular—I'd even be like, go, Brendan Carr, even though I think some of his things are loony. I'd go, go, Lina Khan, go, just to muck up their works for five seconds. But you saw Amy Klobuchar get mowed down. You saw Ken Buck get mowed down. It doesn't really matter. They mow everybody down. And Congress hasn't passed a major bill to protect children online since 1998. Amazing. But KOSA does put in place protections for kids online, like regulating addictive features and harmful content. Tech lobbyists continue to maliciously stir down on Capitol Hill, using one unfounded narrative with Democrats and another with Republicans. With Republicans, they've been stating that KOSA censors speech. What the fuck? We're worried about a 12-year-old's speech?

Scott Galloway: Yeah. Johnson has said, "I love the principle, but the details are very problematic."

Kara Swisher: Let me tell you what's behind all of this. The six most popular social media platforms earn roughly—get this—$11 billion in just one year from advertising that targets, wait for it, children. Children. Social media companies have existed with very little regulation for 30 years and want to keep it that way. $11 billion. KOSA would not censor, limit, or remove any content from the internet, and it does not give the FTC or state attorneys general the power to bring lawsuits over content or speech, no matter who it is from. The bill passes First Amendment scrutiny because it is content neutral. We're talking about kids here.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, they don't want to do anything. They play these sides perfectly.

Kara Swisher: This is light-touch, good regulation. It's important to note that there's no new rulemaking power for the FTC in KOSA, nor any ability to create rules about content. So this whole free speech bullshit doesn't hold water. It's $11 billion they're making, and we have seen evidence everywhere that the more time kids spend on social, the more likely they are to be depressed, anxious, and engage in self-harm. You know what we need to do, Scott?

Scott Galloway: What's that, Kara?

Kara Swisher: Can I just tell you? You and I need to go down to Mar-a-Lago and discuss this with the president. What do you think?

Scott Galloway: I would do it. I'd just like to see the two of you in the same room. Go. Share a McDonald's.

Kara Swisher: I like McDonald's. Can I just say, I love fucking McDonald's?

Scott Galloway: You love McDonald's?

Kara Swisher: I do. I do. I eat it not infrequently. I don't eat it very much. I know it's bad for me, but I got to tell you, I love it. I take the kids. Amanda's always horrified.

Scott Galloway: You go to Mar-a-Lago. I want to go to Tulum with Don Jr. I'd like to roll with him.

Kara Swisher: No, we have to go together. Me and Don Jr. We have to go together.

Scott Galloway: You can go hang out. We should go together.

Kara Swisher: We have to make sure Elon's not there, the guest who wouldn't leave, because he'll come at us. But we need to go and talk about this with him because that's the kind of people we are. We're looking for common ground. Honestly, I would go down there if we could talk to him about something like this, right? For this, it's worth it for me. And I would eat the McDonald's, President Trump. I would eat it.

Kara Swisher: Anyway. All right. Let's get to our friend of Pivot. Kristy Caylor is the founder and CEO of Trashie, a clothing recycling and rewards platform. They also just recently started doing tech stuff, getting rid of all your tech crap that you have. I'm really intrigued by this company, although I find that I'm sort of confused about how it could possibly work out because everyone has their sad recycling stories, Kristy. You know what I mean? Like you find out you recycle and it doesn't work. So explain what it is and how it works exactly, because there's a lot of clothing that ends up in a landfill, right?

Kristy Caylor: Yeah. 85% of our clothing ends up in landfill. It's actually 17 million tons per year. So it's about 112 pounds per person in the U.S. every year. I think the universal truth is just everyone has too much stuff. Typically, recycling is either inconvenient or we don't know where the clothes go. Even Goodwill sells about 27% of what they collect, and we're like, what happens next? So with Trashie, we created a product called the Take Back Bag, which is really fun and exciting. People do it from the convenience of their own home. They fill it up with anything from any brand in any condition. So it's quite convenient in that sense too. And they mail it back to us.

Kara Swisher: So this is soft clothing, shoes, shirts, things like that?

Kristy Caylor: Yeah. Your shirts, your shoes, your bags, your accessories. It can be towels and sheets. You send it back to us. Then we have a big recycling center where we meticulously sort and grade all of the product. It actually goes into one of 253 grades. So it's a very detailed process. Then we find the next best use for it. That can be reuse, that can be recycling, that can be downcycling, fiber recycling. But we control the whole process, so we have complete visibility into it. We know where it goes. Where most programs are opaque, we provide a lot of transparency.

Kara Swisher: Fast fashion, for people who don't know, has become a huge industry, particularly in the last few years with the rise of companies like Shein and Temu. Scott's a big proponent. I'm going to get him, pull him in in a second. But just so you know, Amazon interestingly just launched their competitor in that field last week with a storefront called Haul. Because they got in trouble because they were just throwing everything out. Like if people return stuff, they just threw it out when they didn't ever return it. Just curious, what's your take on these companies? And I'll note a couple of stats. The average consumer buys 60% more pieces of clothing than they did 17 years ago. Not Kara Swisher, but others. The number of times a garment is worn has declined around 36% in the last 15 years or so. So talk a little bit about—people are moving into this, but you wonder if you have the disappointment you had in the recycling business, which has shown that most things you recycle don't get recycled.

Kristy Caylor: Yeah, I think there's a lack of transparency in the recycling process. It's a very kind of antique network of people recycling clothes, so you don't get a lot of transparency and visibility into what's happening. But to your point, we're consuming more. Do you guys know how many products Shein puts out per day? 7,000?

Kara Swisher: Yes, between 2,000 and 10,000 per day.

Kristy Caylor: So on the macro scale, we've moved—I mean, it makes Zara look like luxury.

Scott Galloway: I should get a free trip to Mar-a-Lago. I thought that was outstanding. Seriously, that was outstanding. Look how impressed Chris is. Seriously. That's great. Anyways, go ahead.

Kristy Caylor: Sorry. No, so we've moved from fast fashion to instant fashion, which I think is why everybody's taking note. Like, we have to do something about this. We can't keep putting that much product out into the world. It's estimated that we lose about $600 billion in value every single year. It's remarkable, obviously, the Shein effect, the Temu effect, the increased consumption numbers. I think it's time that we all kind of took note that we need to do something about it. It's estimated that we lose about $600 billion into landfill every year in value from fashion, textiles, technology, toys. But most business models really are not that effective. So either people don't do it because it's not fun or it's not convenient or it's not rewarding. There's not a "what's in it for me" kind of component to it. Those are the pieces we really play with, all embedded with how do we build a really good business model that works. We need to get the flow of economics working. We can't just say we need to do it because it's the right thing.

Scott Galloway: Nice to meet you, Kristy. One of the things I like about what you're doing—I find it sort of ineffective, unrealistic to believe that you're going to talk young people into consuming less. I also, and I'm an investor in the space, I think young people need more access to products for a lower price. But at the same time, trying to figure out a way to deal with one of the externalities here, I think it's really important. The fear I have is that people worry that recycling was nothing but an attempt by people to make them feel that they were actually addressing the problem. There's been a lot of information that recycling, quite frankly, is just more emotional benefit than actual benefit. What happens to these products if organizations like yours don't get ahold of them and repurpose or recycle them effectively?

Kristy Caylor: Yeah, I mean, I think the term recycling is often applied in a very broad way. Sometimes people take products in, they kind of skim the cream off the top, try and resell them for profit, and the rest unfortunately ends up in landfill. That's not discussed. I think that's pretty typical, even with the modern resale platforms. Unfortunately, that's often done at lowest cost. So they're bundled up, they're shipped offshore. We have a whole concept called waste colonialism that we talk a lot about. But it's really the infrastructure to properly process materials hasn't been modernized in order to handle the volume and handle it with precision so that we can actually keep 95% of what we collect out of landfill, which is what our process is able to do. It doesn't mean that it's perfect. Some things are downcycled, some things are reused. You have to have a broad approach to where these products can go. But taking them in in the first place is really critical. We have a gap in the collection cycle and we have a gap in sorting and really the transparency around sorting and where things are being recycled after that.

Kara Swisher: So explain the business model then to us. Because that's where the—you have these colorful bags, you put—I've done it a couple of times and then you get stuff, right?

Kristy Caylor: Correct. You get rewards. Yeah. You unlock deals. So basically the business model works that we've created this recycling service. It comes in the form of this package that's fun and bright and convenient. Customers are willing to pay for that. So that really creates the relationship. And then after recycling, you unlock deals and rewards at places you like to shop. That can be anything from Uber and DoorDash to Nike and Adidas. So it's a broad range of rewards, which we found really important because I think you don't always want to recycle your jeans and buy new jeans. You might want to recycle your jeans and buy dinner. It's a much broader, universal kind of incentive platform that gets the consumer into their next kind of journey in a way where they're also extracting value.

Kara Swisher: So you're not chastising them saying, "Oh, you shouldn't buy things." It's that you don't want them to go to better places, presumably. We want to collect them all.

Kristy Caylor: I think I totally agree. It's unrealistic to think that consumption is going to slow down. There's nothing we can do to do that, frankly. That train kind of left the station. If we can engage on the post moment, if we can say, "Hey, we know you got that pile. We know you've got cords and chargers hiding in a drawer. Let us help you." Most of the time, people are like, "How did you know?" Because we do this.

Kara Swisher: So from what I understand, Temu and Shein are going to be responsible for 20% of all holiday purchases, which is just—and now Haul, which Amazon is trying to copy them, but go ahead.

Kristy Caylor: That's right.

Kara Swisher: What—I mean, other than just the consumption culture, more for less, what do you think is going on here? Because we had typical fashion, then we had fast fashion. I would describe this as on-demand fashion. Can you talk about why this category has just become—the explosion here is staggering. Any thoughts as to why these companies have become so dominant so fast?

Kristy Caylor: I mean, I think you have a few different forces at play at the same time. The Sheins and Temus of the world have kind of hacked cost of goods and speed to market. So they can really drive that frequency of launch in a way that nobody's been able to ever before. That 10,000 styles a day—they often pride themselves on 98% sell through. They're not making these decisions nine months in advance, they're making them two weeks in advance. They've really figured the market out.

Kristy Caylor: I think obviously social media and our access to trend information is really important in driving this forward, particularly with the Gen Z community. That's where everything exists. So it's a rush. It's pretty human nature to have that consumption cycle. And I think there's a really interesting conflict in values, because it's often the same people who are like, "We need to save the planet." It's an interesting tension we're facing.

Kara Swisher: Right. Which Patagonia has done, right? If you think about it, Patagonia makes a big deal—you return them and they fix them. I did that for Louis. He happens to like this one Patagonia jacket and they fixed it. He preferred that instead of a new one, which was interesting. But you're now moving into tech recycling. What is tech recycling? Because I've got cords from the 60s essentially. Where do those go? Why are you doing this, and where do those go? Obviously, you want to do as much stuff that you can actually make money from. Presumably you can from this stuff.

Kristy Caylor: Yeah, I think getting the consumer engaged is one piece. We've distributed over 600,000 take-back bags just for textiles in the last 12 months. When we speak to consumers, they're just like, "Please do more, help me more." So we know the demand is there on the consumer side. To your point, Apple and other platforms have their buyback programs, but they're not handling old chargers and cords—the actual drawer stuff that you don't know what to do with. In a similar format, we see a huge opportunity. We build the supply chain to support that so we can take those products back and recycle them into materials, into componentry. That typically ends up in landfill, so it's pretty similar stats to textiles.

Kara Swisher: But you can make money from that, presumably. That's a lot of money.

Kristy Caylor: It's copper. I wouldn't call it a lot of money, but there's a revenue stream to it, which helps the business model work. That value that goes into landfill typically, we're extracting some of that. We're getting the metals, the plastics, the componentry where possible. When we take back electronics, data sanitation is incredibly important. The integrity of the supply chain is really essential to making this work well and delivering on our promise.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it would be bad if that started killing people by doing that. So people have zeroed in, I would argue, unfairly on fast fashion. Do you think that Apple and Nike, because of their incredibly positive brands, get a bit of an undeserved hall pass? Or is fast fashion really that much worse than some of the other more aspirational brands that have supply chains in China?

Kristy Caylor: It's a great question. On a unit-by-unit basis, fast fashion is a key player in those statistics we just quoted, and the growth of that consumption cycle. But I don't think that gives these brands a pass that are the incumbents with large supply chains and large businesses. Patagonia, I think they've done amazing work, but their business is a billion dollars a year. I think it's grown four percent. It's a pimple on the elephant.

Kara Swisher: I get it.

Kristy Caylor: But they're still producing product. Overall, if you're making product and you're selling it to a consumer, 85% of the time it's ending up in landfill. Everybody should be engaged in this conversation.

Kara Swisher: Let me ask you a quick follow-up. Who in your mind is the worst and the best of a large iconic brand or retailer, from Walmart to Amazon? If you were to pick the people doing their level best and the people doing the worst, which brands would be at the top and the bottom of your list?

Kristy Caylor: Oh, gosh, that's a really tough question. I think Nike has done good work, particularly on upstream supply chain historically and materials innovation, and they continue to do that. I do think Patagonia has led the way, not as large, in changing consumer mindset. Worst, I would say right now, knowing the Shein team is working on things a little bit, I don't know if the Temu team is working on things in the same way. I would say that's bad.

Kara Swisher: Would you say Amazon is responsible?

Kristy Caylor: I would say Amazon is pretty responsible as well.

Kara Swisher: You would say Amazon is responsible? Not like they're not being responsible—they're responsible for the problem as well.

Kristy Caylor: Oh, yeah. That sounds right.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, they throw everything in the trash when you return it, FYI. If you send something back, it never goes anywhere. It's crazy. I almost don't want to return things to them. Anyway, perfect. This is great. Kristy Caylor is the CEO and founder of Trashie. Thank you very much.

Kristy Caylor: Thanks, guys.

Kara Swisher: All right, Scott. We are so solutions-based, aren't we?

Scott Galloway: Oh, yeah. That's right. Fixing it. Let's mail a box of Trashie down to Mar-a-Lago on our visit.

Kara Swisher: Okay. One more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Go first.

Scott Galloway: My win is going to shock you. I met a guy down here who just sold his company. He reached out to a friend of mine who knows First Lady Melania and said, "I'd really like to get my resume in front of DOGE, or Department of Government Efficiency, because I'm interested in going to work for a group in the government that is very focused on solutions." They have said, Vivek and Elon, to their credit, in my view, that if you're looking to bring a private sector innovation, work-your-ass-off vibe to this group, we want to hear from you. I do think there's value in trying to restore some of the aspirational, more merit versus tenure-based culture to government work. I think it's lost a lot of prestige. People still have a lot of prestige for our folks that serve at the highest levels or serve in uniform. But I worry that some of our best and brightest young people, unlike Israel, even unlike the UK, don't think, "I'm really good at what I do, which logically means one of my options should be to go to work in a government role." So I do like that they're trying to create this aspirational feel around it. I wanted to call that a win.

Scott Galloway: My fail is the fact that we're normalizing the notion that somehow vaccines are bad. Some stats here: U.S. childhood immunization from 1994 to 2013 prevented 732,000 deaths and 21 million hospitalizations from vaccine-preventable diseases. COVID-19 in the U.S. prevented 139,000 deaths in just the first five months, reducing projected fatalities by 20%. Vaccines save millions annually by preventing infectious diseases and their complications. These things really are—if you were to hold up something that shows our species kind of gets it and there's real hope here—the measles vaccination prevented millions of deaths, but in 2023 saw a 20% rise in global cases due to poor coverage, leading to 10.3 million cases and 107,000 deaths. The World Health Organization says over 22 million children missed their first vaccine dose, contributing to outbreaks in 57 countries. So anything that normalizes the notion that these things are 99.9%—there are just so few things that create so much positive, that prevent so much death, disease, and disability across communities. These things are inexpensive. They're easily distributed. So I really hope that we check back on what is the easy stuff. Get the easy stuff right. These things work. They're a gift.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. And also, by the way, Operation Warp Speed was one of the better things of his administration. He really is moving away from it. I'm like, you fucking idiot. That was something really amazing that you did. Take credit for that thing. That was impressive. And I know people do like to trash Trump all the time—Trashy Trump. But that was something that was great. That was something that was intuitively good. So it's possible. I don't believe he's walking away from it. That drives me nuts.

Kara Swisher: Okay. I agree with you on the government thing. The only thing I would say about that is they also trash government workers incessantly in a way that's cruel. By the way, there are so many amazing government workers. So stop insulting them that way. Like, "Oh, they all have to be cut." And especially, Elon's just irritating, but Vivek Ramaswamy always has to trash people. No one's ever good. Everyone sucks. It's the same part of "we're the counter elites." They're not. You're a bunch of elites. Stop insulting really good government workers. Some things work. Some things don't. We can make it better. That's my feeling on that one.

Kara Swisher: All right. My win is I'm going to be seeing Gladiator soon, which is very exciting.

Scott Galloway: Gladiator 2, you mean?

Kara Swisher: Gladiator 2. It looks really good. I love Paul Mescal. I hear Denzel Washington's amazing. I know I've talked a lot about Wicked. I'll get to that in a second. But I'm so excited to see that movie. I'm going to go by myself. That's how much I love the movie.

Scott Galloway: It's supposed to be good. My son's in it.

Kara Swisher: But there's another movie that I've heard is fantastic. Aubrey Plaza, who I think is wonderful, is in a movie called My Old Ass. It's about this young girl who takes mushrooms and meets her older self, and they have this relationship. I've heard it's wonderful. I'd love to meet my younger self. It would be interesting. I don't know. I don't think it would be that interesting. Anyways, go ahead.

Scott Galloway: By the way, I saw Aubrey Plaza when I went to that WNBA game.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Which, as you know, I'm totally down with the WNBA.

Scott Galloway: You're a famous lesbian, Scott Galloway. New unofficial spokesperson for the lesbian community.

Kara Swisher: I knew you would like it. I'm so glad that worked out. My fail is, like I said, with them insulting everybody and doing everything, I think they're overstepping really quickly and becoming sore winners. The numbers are really moving. Now it's 49.3 versus 48.

Scott Galloway: Oh, God, here we go again.

Kara Swisher: No, let me just say, they're now doing things like, "Calm the fuck down. This was not as close as you think." Besides that, NFL players are doing the Trump dance. Did you see this? They're doing that stupid, weird jack dance he does where he looks like he's jacking off two horses. Do you know the dance he does? They're doing that. This isn't going to endear you to anybody. Being sore winners. Just stop it. Like, whatever. Do your stupid dance. But this UFC guy did it too. They're all doing the dance. Let me just tell you, you think liberals are irritating? You're fucking irritating, too. And I agree some liberals are irritating. But we need to get along. And you're just being douche nozzles about it. So whatever. It's not going to make me think you're better.

Scott Galloway: It was close, Scott. I don't care what you say.

Kara Swisher: We need to pivot to the center. We absolutely got destroyed. We need to rethink. America's a platform for two things: defending its citizens and its shores, and creating atmospheres to get more money. In any case, don't be a sore winner. Don't be a sore loser. Don't be a sore winner.

Scott Galloway: I'm just sore.

Kara Swisher: You're just sore. Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 855-51-PIVOT. We'll be doing another call-in show soon. Submit your voicemails with questions you'd like to ask us live on the air and let us know where to reach you.

Kara Swisher: Also, Scott, I'm sure you remember Barbenheimer last year, but are you familiar with Glicked? Glicked, get it? Wicked and Gladiator 2 are coming out this Friday, and people are planning to see both movies back to back. I have seen Wicked. I'm going to take Clara to see it tomorrow night here in D.C. We can talk about how movies are making a comeback. Anyways, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Scott Galloway: This you need to see in the theater. Wicked, you absolutely need to.

Kara Swisher: I'm glad you do. You love that. You love Wicked.

Scott Galloway: I love Wicked. It's really good. You'll see. They're trying to recreate that Barbenheimer magic, which I thought was kind of cool. I love that. That did bring a lot of people back to the theater. They did great. Are you going to go to either?

Kara Swisher: No, you won't.

Scott Galloway: I might go to—I'll definitely go to Gladiator. I'm not sure.

Kara Swisher: In the theater, you want to see it though, right?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I think so. I'll probably go see it.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I like when these movies do well in the theater. You don't have to discount that experience. But speaking of Wicked, I just spoke with the director of that movie, John Chu, for the latest episode of On with Kara Swisher. He explained to me how he used your favorite device, Scott, the Apple Vision Pro, to edit the movie. It turns out he's a closet geek. Steve Jobs is his god. He grew up in Silicon Valley. Let's listen.

[Clip plays]

John Chu (clip): Once I got the Vision Pro, I found it changed the game for me. I put it on and I wasn't on a computer with my editor over somewhere else, which feels very limiting. I don't get interactive with it. My blood not pumping. But with the Vision Pro, I could make the screen as big as the room. I could walk around and pace the way I do in the edit room. I could lay on the couch the way I do in the edit room. And then I could bring it closer. We were doing visual effects on it. I could give notes and use my finger to mark things. This is people in the Bay Area, people in London, people in Canada. 40 people are on this and I'm on my couch and I can look at what it looks like 20 feet wide and what it would look like on an iPad.

[Clip ends]

Kara Swisher: Anyway, it's a great interview. He's super geeky in a really interesting way and also very creative. His movie comes out, obviously, the first part of it comes out. He's also working on all kinds of cool stuff.

Scott Galloway: Is this the director for Wicked?

Kara Swisher: Wicked, mm-hmm. He did Crazy Rich Asians. You know, supposedly, they're so excited about it they've already given a green light for a sequel. But it's about Mitch McConnell's sex life. It's called Something Wicked This Way Comes.

Scott Galloway: Oh, that's good. That's a really bad joke. I brought politics, sex, wicked. I don't know what to say. I am literally the Dave Chappelle of the cultural zeitgeist. Mitch McConnell, he shall be in our rearview mirror, and that's good enough for me.

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, that's the show. Where are you going next?

Scott Galloway: I told you, I'm going to Vegas for a speaking gig. Then I go to L.A. I'll be at the Beverly Hills Hotel again trying to find famous people to stare at. And then I go to Vegas for F1. And then I go to Brazil.

Kara Swisher: Oh, my God. Your life. I'm going to be in New York this week.

Scott Galloway: All right. I'm sure I'll hear about it.

Kara Swisher: I'm sure. Say hi to my doorman.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. No, I'm not staying at your house. They're putting me up. I'm doing a secret thing. A secret show.

Kara Swisher: A secret thing. Hmm. Yeah.

Scott Galloway: I'm doing a pilot for a show.

Kara Swisher: Nice. Good. Yeah.

Scott Galloway: All right. I'm not supposed to talk about it, but I'm completely indiscreet.

Kara Swisher: Yes, that's correct. But you will. I don't understand secretiveness. It's not bragging. That's more transparent, yeah. Transparent, that's what we are. We broke the fourth wall.

Kara Swisher: I got a call from Stephanie Ruhle, by the way, who was complaining about us insulting cable while we go on it. We can do both. I was like, "Are you going to bitch me out? Are you going to bitch me out in the morning?" She called this morning. I was like, "No, we said it's a terrible economics, and it is. And your numbers are declining overall and we love your show." And it is our issue—it could be good. There are ways to make it good. There are ways to make everything good. And we do it because we like it.

Scott Galloway: Correct, Scott. And it helps our podcast.

Kara Swisher: She likes you, although she'll call me. She won't even say hi. Stephanie, she'll be like, "You really disappoint me." And I'm like, "Oh, no." And I get scared.

Scott Galloway: And also, I got to be honest, a little turned on.

Kara Swisher: A little turned on. I don't know what's coming next. Now she's going to call me. I kind of like it.

Kara Swisher: Stephanie, we love you. Call and yell at us. Call and yell at us.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, I'm excited for this song you're going to make for my birthday. You have a month. Less than a month. So get on it.

Scott Galloway: Okay, Scott?

Kara Swisher: Okay. That is the show. Read us out.

Scott Galloway: Well, 75 is a big one. We'll be back on Friday with more. Read us out.

Kara Swisher: I'm reading us out. Okay. Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her time entering this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Ms. Saverio, and Dan Shulon. Nishat Kerouaz, Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Have a great rest of the week.

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