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--:-- Noel King: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Noel King.
--:-- Noel King: Hey, what's Jimmy Kimmel been up to since he got back on the air? Please welcome Aziz Ansari.
--:-- Aziz Ansari: Look at you in a suit. Wow, wow.
--:-- Noel King: Oh, he got Aziz Ansari. I haven't been here since all this ice stuff started happening. I'm all nervous. I got friends. They're like, we're hiding our nanny in the basement. We might have to raise our kids. We don't know what we're gonna do. So fun.
--:-- Noel King: I want to ask you about this comedy festival over in Saudi Arabia that you were part of because people, a lot of comedians especially are very upset.
--:-- Noel King: It's a pretty brutal regime. They've done a lot of horrible, horrible things. And so people are questioning why you would go over there and take their money to perform in front of these people. And I'm just curious because you were there. You made this decision. I'm curious as to why you decided to do that.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: Coming up, why they decided to do that.
--:-- Noel King: Support for the show today comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Today's news moves fast, but the most important stories deserve deeper thinking. Whether you're trying to understand the implications of a policy change or connecting dots across breaking stories, Claude, your new AI collaborator, can help you go beyond the headlines. Claude doesn't just summarize the news. It helps you explore the context, analyze the patterns, and think through what it all means together. Try Claude for free at claude.ai.
--:-- Noel King: Support for Today Explained comes from The Economist. If you're like me, you're a little bit obsessed with The Economist, and The Economist has a new feature for you. Insider is a brand new video offering from The Economist that lets you feel like a fly on the wall of their editorial meetings. With Insider, you get direct access to the internal debates that shape how The Economist makes sense of an increasingly complex and turbulent world. Here, trusted voices debate the biggest global issues with Insider free at launch for all subscribers to The Economist. Learn more at economist.com slash insider.
--:-- Noel King: I'm Noel King. Abdullah Aloda is senior director for countering authoritarianism at the Middle East Democracy Center in Washington, D.C. Abdullah is Saudi, and he knows a thing or two about freedom in the kingdom, namely that freedom ain't free thanks to a draconian counterterrorism law.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: Like criticizing the foreign policy is considered an act of terrorism. Criticizing the king or the crown prince, of course, there's actually an article within the law that says questioning the wisdom of the king or the crown prince is an act of terrorism.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: We have also another law that's called anti-cybercrime law that criminalizes anything that they describe as threatening the public value or the questioning the tranquility of society. Things that are like really broad and weird, they can encompass basically anything, including my conversation with you right here.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: Oh, if we were having this conversation in Saudi Arabia, you would get in trouble? I would be tried in the terrorism court and would be convicted for so many years, if not executed.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: Okay. I understand your dad is in prison in Saudi Arabia. Is he in prison for this kind of thing?
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: Yeah, so my father was detained in September of 2017. He just marked eight years. He's still in solitary confinement, which, by the way, is considered a form of torture under international law.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: The thing that triggered all of this, believe it or not, a tweet in which he called for reconciliation between Saudi Arabia and Qatar at that time during the rift between the two countries. He said, may God harmonize between the hearts of the two leaders for the best of the people. They locked him up for so many years now, and they are seeking the death penalty against him on 37 charges, including corrupting Earth by trying to transform the monarchy into a democratic system, calling to free arbitrary detainees, and supporting a democratic revolution during the Arab Supreme in 2011.
--:-- Noel King: Okay, so amid all of this, a bunch of big-name American comedians have been getting a lot of criticism for participating in a comedy festival in Riyadh. Tell me about this festival and why it's such a big deal there.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: This is an event that is sponsored completely by the Saudi government, paid completely by the Saudi government. That's why you see, for example, the double amount given to all these comedians. How big was it, Jack? $375,000 for one show. Nice. That's not bad. That's pretty good.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: I'll watch a be-handing for that. Be-handing? Yeah. I didn't want to do it either. I was contemplating. I was like, maybe not. And then Jasmine was like, you're going to take that fucking money. I just, you know, I get the routing and then I see the number and I go, I'll go. Okay. Yeah.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: I was speaking to people in the showbiz here in the States who said in such events, they would usually be given like 50 to 60 or 70,000 for a night. And in Saudi Arabia, they are given like 200 to 300 to five, sometimes 100,000 for one night, which is basically sometimes triple the amount that they got. Elsewhere, the Saudi government is doing this. They are sponsoring this. They have the deep pocket. It's not a private company. It's not like any show that you see in the world or watch or follow oh, we're like a private company or a business or a businessman or like, you know, basically a private entity doing this.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: No, this is an entity that is part of the Saudi government. It's called Public Investment Fund. It's a sovereign wealth fund owned completely by the Saudi government. All of this is managed and controlled completely and directly by no other than the Saudi government himself. And that's why this is so controversial, because it's the same person who commits all that crime and who does all the atrocities that we talk about.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: I'll give you a quick example. So this event is paid by the Public Investment Fund. The helm of the buyout is Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund. PIF is Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund. It's one of the largest in the world with assets expected to exceed $1 trillion by 2025. This public investment fund has another subsidy that is called Prime Aviation. Prime Aviation was used during the Khashoggi murder. Now to the mysterious disappearance that has prompted an outcry around the world.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: This is the last time Saudi journalist and Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi was seen alive. to commit the crime of flying all these people, the team that actually killed and dismembered our friend Jamal Khashoggi at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul in 2018
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: So you get like the same exact entity PEF doing all this bad business doing all of these like dirty work, but at the same time, instead of fixing the things on the ground, stopping from killing people, protecting human rights, respecting dignity and freedom of speech, they do an easier way for them, which is to continue whatever they have been doing, to do all the violations that they have been doing, but at the same time, pay for people to make them look good. It's the optics of it. That's what they all care about at the end.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: Are they just doing this with comedy festivals or are they doing it in other ways too? No, actually they're doing it with the sports. The PGA and Saudi-backed Live Golf have officially announced a merger. The deal is a major victory for Saudi Arabia. Through the kingdom's sovereign wealth fund, they bought an English Premier League soccer team, Newcastle United. They bind major sports teams. They're hosting major sports events. The UFC returns to the kingdom with two middleweight blockbusters. Live from Saudi Arabia. The International Olympic Committee is partnering with the Riyadh-based Esports World Cup Foundation to host the first ever eSports Olympics in Saudi Arabia in 2027. They were just awarded the 2034 World Cup. The host of the FIFA World Cup 2034 will be Saudi Arabia. And all of this is part of this scheme of whitewashing machine that they have been running all along.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: I hear the criticism. I really do. I also wonder whether there might be some upside here, whether any of these events bringing all of these outsiders, including many Westerners, into Saudi Arabia might change things in Saudi Arabia. Like, could there be any positive outcome from all of this?
--:-- Bilbo: That's a good point. Let me bring in Bilbo here. I'm passionate about my opinions and I want you to hear all of them before you get to talk again.
--:-- Bilbo: So basically, Bill Burr in Riyadh said that he went to basically have fun and meet with people. And he said the people were happy. And he just goes, hey, Bill Burr, I love you. Kick ass, man. And I could just feel like these fucking people, the people, OK, they want a fucking show. And if you go back to Bill Burr a few years ago, we remember when he criticized Beyonce. Beyonce and Mariah Carey actually did private New Year's gigs for a million bucks. for Gaddafi's kids? You're going to take a gig where you're going to go dance like a goddamn fucking clown for a mass murderer's kids? Then you take that fucking blood money.
--:-- Bilbo: So I think if we use Bill Burr's own words, I would say the money that Bill Burr has taken from the Saudi government that tortures us and kills the people that we like and love and follow is basically blood money.
--:-- Bilbo: All right, so Bill Burr seems a bit like a hypocrite here if we're being honest. Another one who's gotten a lot of attention, Dave Chappelle. So reportedly, during his set, he joked about being able to say things in Riyadh that he can't even say in the U.S. When you saw that reported, what did you think?
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: I was so furious. My family are banned from traveling, not because they said something, but because I, in the U.S. here, said something. So they are, you know, taking them hostages against me. This is how they go after free speech, not even in the kingdom, but also in the U.S. here. It's a part of what internationally is being called now transnational repression.
--:-- Abdullah Aloda: And you go to this place, to the capital, just a few miles where my father is arrested and detained and is potentially facing the death penalty for something that is protected by free speech. And you speech and you preach about, you know, free speech in Saudi Arabia. I think this is hypocritical to see the least. And it is hurting. It has hurt my family, myself.
--:-- Abdurrahman al-Sadhan: Asked Abdurrahman al-Sadhan, who ran a satirical account on Twitter, and he was detained and tortured and sentenced to more than 20 years in prison because the Saudi government did not take a joke.
--:-- Abdurrahman al-Sadhan: if you're telling me that you're going to speak about things that are going to make fun of things well tell me how you're going to make fun of the person who before you even came to Riyadh made you sign a pledge and made you sign a contract then you're not going to criticize the kingdom of Saudi Arabia the government, the current prince or anything in Saudi Arabia I don't know how you're going to talk about free speech while you just signed this kind of contract
--:-- Abdurrahman al-Sadhan: At the end of the day, you know, the leaders in Saudi Arabia have an enormous amount of power. They have an enormous amount of money. They very clearly want to change their image. Is it working? I think it is working. Look at these people. When you see the most famous comedians in Riyadh taking the money, not caring about anything else, I think it's working. It's sending the message that money basically trumps everything else. Whether we like it or not, whether human rights like it or not, whether democracy likes it or not, that's the reality.
--:-- Abdurrahman al-Sadhan: And the only way that we can change this fact is when people decline these offers, when people, at least when they went over there, talk about human rights, or talk about the victims of the government that just hosted them. But otherwise, the people who have the money is winning.
--:-- Noel King: Coming up, hack-on-hack violence. its comedians turn on each other over the festival in Riyadh.
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--:-- Noel King: Support for Today Explained comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every entrepreneur knows that moment when breaking news hits and you're thinking, what does this actually mean for my business? New regulations drop, markets shift, geopolitical events unfold, and suddenly you need to understand not just what happened, but how it connects to everything else. Claude by Anthropic is an AI collaborator that can help you work through information in real time. You can upload docs, regulatory filings, or multiple news sources to help you see the bigger picture. Need to verify claims or research background context? Claude searches current sources and provides citations you can check. It works through complex news stories step-by-step asking questions that reveal deeper meanings and connections others miss. See why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner and try Claude for free at Claude.ai.
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--:-- Noel King: Oh, dare you explain? Basically, a bunch of A-list comedians like Dave Chappelle, Louis C.K., Aziz Ansari, Bill Burr, all just over the last two weeks went to Riyadh to perform at the inaugural Riyadh Comedy Festival funded by the Saudi government, which is a little surprising because a lot of these comedians have spent the last 10 years or so complaining about how in America you can't say anything.
--:-- Seth Simons: Hey, if you do anything wrong in your life, duh, and I find out about it, I'm going to try to take everything away from you. Any comedian who's out in the world saying that comedian shouldn't be saying these things, that's a traitor to comedy.
--:-- Seth Simons: As a comedian, I think anything on stage or anything that's an attempt of a joke, to me, no matter what it is, no matter how big of a swing you take and you miss, it's okay. They treat this as an assault on their civil liberties. And they sort of frame themselves as the vanguard of free speech. They are the front lines of speech in America, of liberty in America.
--:-- Seth Simons: And so to go and perform and take money from a regime that is notoriously repressive, that locks people up and even executes people for what they say seemed a little hypocritical. I think it's hypocritical.
--:-- Seth Simons: That's Seth Simons. He's a journalist and critic who covers the comedy industry. And Seth has been reporting from the front lines of comedy's civil war.
--:-- Seth Simons: A bunch of comedians like Mark Maron or Dave Cross or Atsuko Okatsuka found this to be a betrayal of their ostensible values and criticized these comedians. I mean, the same guy that's going to pay them It's the same guy that paid that guy to bone saw Jamal Khashoggi and put him in a fucking suitcase. But don't let that stop the yucks. It's going to be a good time.
--:-- Seth Simons: I think it's embarrassing to go on stage and tell jokes that if some of the audience members tweeted from their own personal accounts could lead to them being executed. I think that's embarrassing.
--:-- Seth Simons: How did Saudi manage to book all these guys? I don't know exactly, but I know they worked with WME, the mega talent agency, and they worked with Bruce Hills, who was for years in charge of Just for Laughs, the huge comedy festival in Montreal. So, you know, they have a lot of ways to lure A-list comedians, and they also threw a lot of money at them.
--:-- Seth Simons: There's a comedian named Tim Dillon, who on his podcast bragged that... They're paying me $375,000 for one show. He also, in that same podcast, told a bunch of jokes about, not really jokes, but being generous about how, you know, they have slaves in Saudi Arabia and they, you know, murdered a journalist for criticizing them. And he said, Do I have issues with some of the policies towards women, towards the gays, towards the freedom of speech? Well, of course I do. But I believe in my own financial well-being. And then he got fired for saying all that.
--:-- Seth Simons: He also said that a lot of other people are getting one point six million. That's not me. I'm not in that bracket. I assume that means the Chappelle's, the Louis C.K.'s, the Kevin Hart's, you know, made more than a million. And, you know, he's he's friends with some of those comedians. So I do think he has sort of inside info.
--:-- Seth Simons: What interesting things have the comedians that went there said about performing there? They sort of framed it as a cultural interchange. You know, they are bringing comedy to this people who doesn't have a lot of stand-up comedy, I guess.
--:-- Seth Simons: Whenever there's repressive societies like this, they try to keep things out, whether it's rock and roll music or, you know, blue jeans, because it makes people curious about outside ideas, outside values. And to me, like a comedy festival felt like something that's pushing things to be more open. There's some good in it, maybe some bad in it. But I think for me, it cuts towards going. And that's my decision. And that's I know where it's coming from because I can see right inside myself.
--:-- Seth Simons: They said that they didn't have to censor themselves, even though they sort of agreed to a contract that forbade criticizing the Saudi government religion. And other than that, it was all everything was like open.
--:-- Seth Simons: You've seen some of them say that, you know, there there were women at these shows. There were young people at these shows. They weren't just performing for the royals. I believe it was Bill Burr and some others have said that they, you know, did fairly raunchy jokes.
--:-- Seth Simons: Josh is up there and he literally said, he goes, you can wear sandals over here and still get pussy? And everybody laughed and the guy goes yeah There was a comedian named Chris DiStefano who said that you know someone shouted at him We wish you were more vulgar A girl said that She was like give us the dirty stuff Because you're so thirsty for it. Yeah. The joke he said was, oh, you want me to do the dirty stuff? Let's kill all the Jews. Oh. Was how he recalled that on his podcast. Oh. Yeah. I mean, that's the sort of stuff you see on these podcasts.
--:-- Seth Simons: And they've said that they got treated very well. DiStefano said that, Whitney Cummings said that no one has treated her as well in the U.S. as the Saudis treated her. You've seen a lot of videos posted by the Saudis running the festival of like these comedians getting plied with flowers and, you know, surrounded by food and just sort of being given the red carpet treatment, which I think is important to a lot of these comedians to feel like they are important and famous celebrities.
--:-- Seth Simons: Are they outliers in the history of comedians? Like I'm thinking about George Carlin, Lenny Bruce, like, didn't they also push the envelope wherever they could and then scream free speech when anybody pushed back at them?
--:-- Seth Simons: Yes and no. Carlin and Bruce were both arrested for their acts. Bruce was prosecuted and convicted. San Francisco, I got arrested for, I'm not going to repeat the word because I want to finish the gig here tonight. George Carlin, his act sort of led to a Supreme Court decision that basically upheld the FCC's power to regulate indecency and obscenity on public airwaves.
--:-- Seth Simons: You know, what are these words that I'm talking about? They're just words that we've decided, sort of decided not to use all the time. That's about the only thing you can really say about them for sure, that they're just some words, not many either, just a few, that we've decided, well, we won't use them all the time.
--:-- Seth Simons: Both those guys and others like them took actual heat. They were, you know, targeted by the state in a way that none of these comedians have been. And I do at the same time also think that a lot of the history of comedy is a history of sort of aggrieved men using their art form to say horrible things about, you know, about black people, about gay people.
--:-- Seth Simons: But, you know, the people who comedians treat as their icons, like Carl and Lenny Bruce, I think, did legitimately fight and suffer for their rights. The pushback was really interesting because it came not just from, you know, schmoes, but people like Mark Maron. Yeah.
--:-- Seth Simons: How big of a deal is it? I mean, in a month, do we care what Pete Davidson did in Saudi Arabia? Like, does this tarnish these guys? I don't know, and I'll be curious to see.
--:-- Seth Simons: I do think it is a big deal for other comedians to speak out because, you know, if you've been paying attention to comedy, Over the last five, six years, you've seen, obviously, Chappelle release a series of anti-trans specials and declare himself a TERF. TERF is an acronym. Stands for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists. This is a real thing. This is a group of women that hate transgender. They don't hate transgender women, but they look at trans women the way we blacks might look at blackface. It offends them. Like, this bitch is doing an impression of me.
--:-- Seth Simons: You saw in like the very first months of the pandemic, when people were still dying by the thousands and, you know, there was no vaccine. A lot of these comedians we're talking about now went right back out on the road in May, June 2020 and performed across the country in very fairly small, often underground rooms that were super spreader events.
--:-- Seth Simons: I wasn't going to talk about the coronavirus. But on the way here, I got really ill. And, you know, you've seen just sort of racism, levels of racism that would have been scandalous six years ago are now normal on these comedians' podcasts and sometimes in their acts. And you don't see a lot of criticism of that from other comedians. So I think there's a lot of shady stuff that happens in comedy that would be a big deal if people like Marc Maron or other ostensibly liberal and left-leaning or just plain good, decent comics made a fuss about it. But I think a lot of them sort of just want to stay in their lane and not make a fuss.
--:-- Seth Simons: But to answer your question, it is very notable that this caused the uproar it did. And even fans, if you go to these comedians' subreddits, or if you look at their comment sections on Twitter, you'll see a lot of their fans are bringing it up pretty constantly. I do think they sort of maybe went a little too far in a way that the comedians might not have expected would cause the backlash it did. But it remains to be seen how well that will be metabolized by a public that is sort of, you know, obviously dealing with a constant stream of horrible news and disappointing public figures.
--:-- Noel King: Of course, Hadi Muwagdi produced today's show. Amina El-Sadi edited. Laura Bullard checks the facts. And Adrian Lilly is our only engineer.
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--:-- Noel King: Who am I? I'm Noel King. It's Today Explained. Thank you.
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