Rent The Runway’s IPO, Southwest’s Flight Cancellations and Friend of Pivot Eli Saslow

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway: And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher: Hello, Scott. You're very quiet today. Why is that?

Scott Galloway: I'm sort of basking in your success. I watched 15 minutes of shame last night and I saw you on there. They are the richest people in the history of earth. I thought it was a fantastic program. I really enjoyed it.

Kara Swisher: Explain what it is.

Scott Galloway: It's Monica Lewinsky's HBO Max special on bullying and shame and cancel culture. It's essentially talking about how these algorithms and these platforms have created a sub-industry and tapped into our worst instincts that results in some, what I'll call, righteous shame organizations. This all started with LA Fitness refusing to pause a pregnant woman's membership, and they got shamed online. Then people got drunk with it and started shaming people kind of randomly, including an employee for the San Diego Power and Electric Company, who they thought was making a white supremacy motion with his hands. He clearly wasn't a Latino man, and he was fired. There's just been examples.

Kara Swisher: And obviously, the thing I liked about it was Monica resisted the temptation to just make it all about Monica. She touched on her controversy, but she wanted it to be broader than that. My takeaway, and I'm curious to get yours, is that the lesson is that shaming and canceling, or call it consequence culture or accountability culture, does work. Which is what Roxane Gay talked about.

Scott Galloway: It does. Yeah.

Kara Swisher: And by the way, Roxanne Gay tweeted at me. She's funny. It does work. It is an important part of our society. Elected officials should be called out. Corporations, it works. But with individuals, it's not effective and it's unfair and usually doesn't work. You just lose a lot of nuance. You can ruin people's lives and you end up finding out later on that we just didn't have the time to really understand what this person was doing or saying or meaning.

Scott Galloway: Although at the same time, she said some people deserve societal problems after they make mistakes. I think that's what was great about it. You didn't have the cancel culture warriors on one hand and the anti-culture warriors on the other. That's what I liked about it. Some things deserve consequences. One of the things that's happened with these people that are calling everything cancel culture is they don't want to take responsibility. As you know, I think it's accountability in some cases. In some cases, it's inappropriate. But this idea of people who've made their own little industries around it is just ridiculous. I think the nuance has been lost. And I think Monica, as usual, she has so much empathy for every side. I think this showed a more nuanced story.

Scott Galloway: But there is – I think people need to show more grace and more patience and more forgiveness. There is now an industrial complex where the incentives online reward you for dunking on someone when they make a mistake. If you call it consequence culture, the follow-up question is: do the consequences match the offense? And I think we've gone to a point where people are paying a ridiculous price for the wrong sentiment statement at the wrong time. I think it's happened at your company, the New York Times company. I think this is a moment where a lot of times consequence doesn't fit the actual offense because of algorithms and because of the mob mentality.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, but I think you're going – anytime white people get in trouble, we have to worry about it and fix it right away. This has been happening to gay people, to people of color, and women for centuries. The minute there's a little out of line-ness of it, everybody acts like a four-alarm fire. And it's just not. I'm sorry. You and I are going to have to fundamentally disagree on this.

Scott Galloway: The people highlighted in this show weren't, as you described, aggrieved white males. Yes, I get it. Women, they were Latinos. And this notion that an overcorrection is warranted just means that injustice justifies further injustice. I just don't buy that argument.

Kara Swisher: Of course not. But the inability to have empathy for people who have suffered for centuries is just exhausting. It's just exhausting. And I agree, she was nuanced in this. I think there's a lot to be said on all sides. But these nine-alarm fires by typically white men – just calm down. Some of them deserve it. Some of them don't. Some things are unfair. And guess what? Lots of things have happened to other people that are unfair for decades and decades in this country.

Scott Galloway: It feels like we watched a different documentary. The documentary I watched saw people portrayed who were not CEOs of media firms abusing women and doing horrific things. They were people that said something stupid or, quite frankly, didn't say something stupid, and Twitter seized on them. And basically ruined their careers, ruined their reputation, sent them into a spiral of depression. It is happening everywhere and happening with a lot more frequency. I think it's happening every day with teens. There is tremendous shaming in a culture where Snap and some of these other things just call on our worst instincts. I feel as if that documentary should be required viewing in the eighth grade.

Kara Swisher: Scott, I utterly get what you're saying. But this is something Monica Lewinsky went through. And you know what I mean? I agree. Like, obviously unfair. And sometimes it's not. That's why she had Roxane Gay in there. That's why she had me in there to talk about those issues. Because it's such a nuanced issue. And it's become this reductive, just another thing to battle about. It's either one way or the other. It's either this or that. So I think that's why I liked it. It's complex and confusing and nuanced. I thought she did a good job doing that.

Scott Galloway: Well, I want to finish where I started and then try and draw a lesson out of this for younger people. I thought it was just great. And Bill Clinton is a hero of mine. And he isn't any longer. Just because when I really honestly think about what happened and how he handled that situation, I think it's unforgivable to throw a young woman to the wolves like that. I just think it's unforgivable.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I agree. The thing I always loved about Bill Clinton was that I thought he really had genuine empathy for people. I really got the sense that he cared about people. And as I really face what happened in a sober fashion, they just took a very promising young woman's life and generously put it on pause for 20 years. That's just a terrible thing. People should not do that to other humans.

Scott Galloway: I think one of the things is that I would listen to the interview I did with her because everyone really likes her and they realize – and it's not just Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton's the principal person, but Ken Starr, the FBI, the media, comics on late night television.

Kara Swisher: Well, Hillary.

Scott Galloway: Hillary, a hundred percent. I mean, I just consider them together. She has shown so much grace that it's hard to imagine where her huge amount of empathy comes from, given what's happened to her. Agreed. I think she's a role model for people. But the word in there, and this goes back to the last one, is this notion of schadenfreude. This notion that we would rather see an opposing team miss a goal than our team make a goal. We revel in other people's failure. It's a really unfortunate thing about our species, but the wonderful thing about our species is it evolves and it learns and can modulate. What I recognize is that one of the things I don't like is that everyone piles on people when they're vulnerable. Something bad happens to them, so let's find everything they've done. And then people start coming forward and, "Oh, she or he also did this." In terms of your own personal relationships, and I think this is a flaw I had as a younger man, you're drawn to people when they're successful, and you kind of get allergic to them when something bad happens to them. They get fired. The reality is if you want to be a good friend, you run to people when they're wrong. People don't need you when they're right and when they're killing it. People need you when they fuck up and they're getting shit rained on them. I think a lot of young people don't figure that out. At least I didn't until I was older. A real friend – you don't need friends when you're right and killing it. You need friends when you screw up. So I always tell young people when someone in your life screws up, run to them and be supportive. Schadenfreude is a terrible instinct. Understand it and try and starch it out of your life.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you read a lot of tabloids before the internet, but that's what they were doing, right? This is nothing. Monica Lewinsky happened pre-internet. So did Diana. So did a lot of things. This sort of hunting for people – I think it's a human condition, but it's become more amplified with all these tools for sure. So I will try. I will not insult you online, Scott. I will make that promise.

Scott Galloway: But I enjoyed it. I really was moved by it.

Kara Swisher: I'm glad. You tweeted it. She was very appreciative. She wrote me a note.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I was really impressed with it. Scott Galloway's a nice guy. That's what she said.

Kara Swisher: So Nick Clegg, speaking of non-apologies, people who deserve the consequences, went on a non-apology tour this weekend and spoke to everybody but people who actually have covered the company. Here's what he said on CNN when asked if Facebook played a role in amplifying voices ahead of the January 6th insurrection.

Nick Clegg [clip]: Look, given we have thousands of algorithms and you have millions of people using this, I can't give you a yes or no answer to the individual personalized feeds that each person uses. We cooperate with law enforcement, of course, to give them content that might have shown up on our platform. But let's be clear, of course, January 6th, the responsibility for that is for the people who broke the law, who inflicted the violence, who aided and abetted them, who encouraged them.

Kara Swisher: Oh, Scott, what do you say?

Scott Galloway: So, look, you said it perfectly a couple weeks ago. You said no one's accusing them of being the catalyst for January 6th. We're also not accusing them of being responsible for all teen suicide. We're not accusing them of vaccination hesitancy. We're accusing them of being like a coal plant. Or if you smoke a lot, you're twice as likely to get a cold. You're more likely to die of heart disease. You're more likely to get cancer. Facebook, the bottom line is our ability to control the externalities, their incredible ability to overrun all externalities and create delay and obfuscation has resulted in this noxious emissions that makes a bunch of very important things – teen health, elections, our discourse – makes all of these things just a little bit shittier every fucking day. A little bit shittier. I think that should be their motto. A little bit shittier every day.

Kara Swisher: A little bit shittier.

Scott Galloway: And then the other one that just drives me crazy is when he goes, "You know, we absolutely support regulation and it's time and we need help." Find me one goddamn House of Representatives, one senator that will say, "Oh, yeah, Facebook really wants us to help us figure out a way to regulate them." That is just such unadulterated bullshit. It's just another line. You can hear them in these rooms making these determinations. I can just see the meetings. "We want to give voice to the unheard." I can see the meetings. "We're proud of our progress." I want to walk into these meetings as they're strategizing and slap them all, like back to last Sunday. That's what I would like to do. I'm like, just speak English to all of us, not in English English, which Nick Clegg tries to employ. It's smooth British.

Kara Swisher: What's interesting, I've heard from a lot of British people who are saying, "We didn't like this guy when he was here before, by the way, good luck with him," which is interesting. He was in government. But the half-life is decreasing. I think it took a better part of a decade for Sheryl Sandberg to ruin her reputation. And I think it's ruined. I think it's over for her on a lot of levels. I think his reputation will be ruined in 12 to 24 months because people have just had it. People just see through this shit. They're like, "No, you're lying." And you can understand it. We live in a capitalist society. He's probably said, "I'm going to make 30 to $50 million in the next three years. I can insulate myself from the shame on my yacht. Financial security is important. I built up a lot of credibility, making no money as a public servant. It's time for me to cash in." I kind of get it. But the half-life on reputations over there is like the Trump administration screaming towards 2020. It's just getting shorter and shorter and shorter for these individuals.

Kara Swisher: Well, it ain't good. And let me just say, I thought Dana Bash did a very good job, but the fact that they're going to non-people who covered it, just to do this, they won't return. I have a dozen declines on any interviews, even off the record, with these people. So they're trying to avoid people who know them and they're trying to make their case directly. And they'll get one. I hate to say this. You know who they're going to?

Scott Galloway: Who?

Kara Swisher: They're going to very talented, very well-known journalists who don't know a fucking thing about technology and can't ask follow-up questions.

Scott Galloway: Brian Stelter, Dana Bash, Chuck Todd. I mean, okay, great. They're fantastic journalists. Quite frankly, you just sit there and go, "Well, what about –" They're purposely cherry picking people who feel like a real interview, but don't have the domain expertise to really drill down on these questions because technology is complicated. These people have no domain expertise.

Kara Swisher: Yep, yep. Well, why would they pick the ones who could say "That's bullshit, Nick" kind of thing? They wouldn't like that. Anyway, we'll see where it goes. They're just going to try to rope-a-dope us out of this again. But you know what? Senator Klobuchar is on to you people. They're on to you. They're on to you. Amy, Amy, Amy. She's on to them. Can't you feel it? I want her to be president. She's my choice. President.

Scott Galloway: So a couple of quick things. Tesla's moving to Texas. Elon announced the company's headquarters will move into Austin, where it's also building a factory. The Fremont facility will remain open. Elon moved there. I don't know what to say.

Kara Swisher: Why do you think he's moving their care?

Scott Galloway: Taxes. No personal income tax. 100%.

Kara Swisher: And he stood on stage with you and said, "I'm going to pay 53% tax." No, he's not.

Scott Galloway: I have a bunch of options that are expiring early next year. So a huge block of options will sell in Q4 because I have to. They'll expire. And my top marginal tax rate is 53%. So you eventually will pay a lot of taxes. Massive.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I mean, basically the majority of what I sell will be tax. He meant federal taxes, I believe.

Scott Galloway: No, he didn't. Long-term, when you exercise options.

Kara Swisher: He was talking about federal taxes. He was. But go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Okay. Federal long-term capital gains are 22.8%. And short-term capital gains, I think they're 37%. And if he were to have short-term capital gains, which he would if he exercises options, he doesn't have to pay those on his founder's shares. Those are long-term capital gains. But the difference between the strike price and what the shares are worth is a short-term capital gain. Okay, fine. He's not going to pay that rate. The majority of his wealth comes from founder shares, which he will never sell. He's going to pay no fucking taxes. And the little taxes he does pay, he's going to avoid 13% in California state income tax. So the notion that they're going to Texas for Tex-Mex or a more friendly government – what extraordinary bullshit. He's peacing out just in time. He has leveraged California infrastructure, employment, the great universities there, the roads, the culture of innovation, built – become the second or first wealthiest man in the world so he can go monetize it in a lower tax state.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, they're all doing it. Just as if we have a tax treaty across international – shit, come down to Miami. My God, all these people complaining about San Francisco governance. Well, Texas does have a background in space. There's lots of space facilities in Texas. Houston, we have a problem. So, yeah, you're right. They're all doing it. And by the way, Ireland wants American companies to pay more in taxes. This has been a place where companies locate. But it did join more than 130 companies in setting the 15% corporate tax rate. Its previous rate was 12.5%. New rules would also make tech giants pay taxes in countries where their products are sold, not just where they have offices. That was a loophole. The deal still needs to be approved here in the U.S., and Republicans in Congress are expected to fight it. But it's moving in that direction. It's this idea that they can't hide money.

Scott Galloway: This was Ireland's decision. Ireland did this kicking and screaming. Ireland's like, "Okay, we have a really wonderful culture. We have good universities, but we can't compete with all these different sovereigns to get firms like Apple and Google." So what they do is they become a tax haven. And America, and this is exactly what we should do, and OECD nations have said, "We're not going to have a race to the bottom here. We have to fund our militaries. We have to fund our schools. And Ireland, if you don't do this, we're going to put you out of fucking business." And America could do that. And Europe could start putting all kinds of – so this wasn't Ireland deciding to do it. This was acquiescing. And this should be done globally, and it should also be done intrastate. Because when you're trying to track companies and capital, not for innovation, not because you have better human capital, but just because you're willing to charge lower taxes, which eats at our ability to fund democracies and defense, that's just not cool. So this is a huge victory. I'm a big fan of this.

Kara Swisher: Well, we'll see. They'll find ways to get out of taxes. The whole point of life is getting out of taxes from the beginning of time. So time for our first big story. We got to get to it. Southwest Airlines canceled at least 1,800 flights over the weekend and is still digging out as of Monday. Supposedly for weather.

Scott Galloway: Weather.

Kara Swisher: Supposedly for weather. Disruptive weather.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, weather called like anti-vax people blowing air, essentially.

Kara Swisher: The issues with air traffic control and other airlines didn't have that many problems. Southwest has struggled with staffing and morale issues for months. This was the happiest airline, if you remember. I don't know if you've ever been on a Southwest flight, Scott. Ticker LUV. Well, whatever. They're always like super fun. They sing at you and stuff, which is why I don't go on the flights anymore. Last week, Southwest decided to implement a vaccine mandate like a lot of other airlines. The Pilots Union has asked the court to block it. Last year, Southwest reached a deal for $3.2 billion in federal bailout funds. You know what? Ugh.

Scott Galloway: It's hard to imagine that you could make unions, pilots, and Southwest look this bad at the same time. This is a company that took $3.2 billion. This is an environment where you are in an encapsulated, airtight, pressurized environment, and you don't want to get a fucking vaccine, boss? And you took $3 billion from the government? And you're coughing all over people who pay money? And the union is making excuses for them? I mean, I thought this was a headline from The Onion. I can't imagine people more deserving to be fired. Businesses can do what they want, and they should require their staff. If they have a huge amount of time spent with the public and each other, they should be vaccinated.

Kara Swisher: Thank you. It's a mandate. Biden showed some leadership here. It's the wrong word. People, what would you do? Okay, Mr. Marketer, mandate people don't seem to like, even though they do things mandated all the time, like you mandate stop signs that mandate traffic lights.

Scott Galloway: Oh, I would take the delicate approach. I'm like, "It's the law and we're going to lock your ass up, dipshit, if you don't comply with the law." That doesn't seem to win. That's not winning. You're a famous marketer, Scott. What would you call it besides vaccine mandate?

Kara Swisher: Vaccine opportunity.

Scott Galloway: I guess.

Kara Swisher: Oh, that's good. Opportunity.

Scott Galloway: Vaccine wall. Call it the wall. I don't know. This requires – this isn't about branding. This is about leadership. Enough already. I just – you want to get your union to stop you from getting – I read this and I thought, my God, I am so out of – I'm quite frank, I'm just out of touch. I would have thought they'd be the first people that would want it. They shouldn't take the government money if they're going to do stuff like this.

Kara Swisher: It was interesting that these groups can really organize and shut things down in a lot of ways, of course, and tech workers can't. I was just making that comparison. Nobody organizes very well, but they manage to do it. But we'll see. I think this is just one of these things. The Biden administration has gotten into the ugly part of the journey of the early administration. And that's really a problem because it's all over the place, whether it's immigrants at the borders, Haiti, Afghanistan, the vaccine mandates, the infrastructure bill. There's a lot going on where it seems that they don't have control of the situation. It feeds into a bigger issue, and that is almost every company that has a lot of employees is really struggling right now. The employees have so much leverage right now. And as business comes back and a lot of people are reevaluating their lives, employees have the upper hand, and in a lot of good ways around wages. This really shocked me, though. I thought that Southwest, I thought the union, much less the pilots themselves, really look bad here.

Scott Galloway: I think this goes away. I think they're all going to decide, "This is a really bad look, guys. This is a really bad look." But what do you do if you're the CEO? You say, well, that's what the United Airlines guy did. He said, "You have to have a vaccine. And if you don't want to work here, that's your business." That's what you do at Southwest. All right. Go apply for a job at Spirit Airlines.

Kara Swisher: Southwest is denying it was a pilot sick out that drove weekend delays, just so you know. I said it was the weather, which was tremendous bullshit.

Scott Galloway: They are trying – Southwest, by the way, I think it has a market capitalization greater than every other American airline combined. It's a really well-run company. Their hair is on fire. They're like, "Okay, this is a terrible look." And so they say, "Call it weather." It wasn't weather. I even went on a flight map and I'm like, "Where's their weather problems?" And the other airlines were canceling flights. I think what is clear is that it's pretty obvious Southwest probably recruits or gets a lot of its pilots from what I'll call more conservative pockets of America. But they're saying, "We can say with confidence that our pilots are not participating in the official or unofficial job actions." I bet I've read otherwise.

Kara Swisher: So I don't – I'm open to learning here. Is it not the pilots? I read that it was the pilots.

Scott Galloway: Yep. It's going back and forth. People are doing reporting on it. It's very – the issue is these vaccine mandates have made people angry. Some workers, some not. But they're saying it's disruptive issues. I mean, it's disruptive weather and ATC issues, air traffic control issues. There you go. But vaccine mandates are continuing. So suck it up. And of course, the minute this happened and the rumors were that it was this, all the right wingers came out saying, "See, we have power, blah, blah, blah."

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I don't get it. They just want to break everything. They do. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk about Rent the Runway and chat with our friend of Pivot, Eli Saslow.

[Break]

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Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back with our second big story. Rent the Runway filed for an IPO last week. The company was once valued at a billion. It was a unicorn, but then it raised funds at a valuation of $750 million dollars. It's not profitable, never has been. During the pandemic, loungewear and casual wear made up a larger portion of the business than they had previously. They had a cutback on certain things like unlimited subscriptions. So what do you think about this?

Scott Galloway: I took a break from tech last night and started – I love birdwatching S1s and reading them. There's sort of the good and the bad and the ugly. I hadn't had a chance to look at specialty retail. The good is Warby Parker. It has real moats. Customer acquisition costs are good. CAC. It's trading, in my opinion, it's overvalued at $6 billion, but it's a good company.

Kara Swisher: Just so you know, for those who don't know, Warby Parker does eyeglasses.

Scott Galloway: That's right. Good company, overvalued, but it could grow into that valuation because it's a great company with real moats, great supply chain, good margins.

Kara Swisher: Why do you think it has great moats?

Kara Swisher: A lot of people think those glasses are cheap. That's where I get all my glasses. I think the combination of the stores, the customer service, the fantastic online marketing they do, and the ability to go into that store and feel like they're going to have an 80% of an $800 glass for $99. I think they've made glasses disposable, and I mean that in a good way. They're kind of the Zara of eyewear, and I think they have a great brand, great retail footprint, great execution.

Scott Galloway: I mean, I'm just, I spend $200, $300 every couple of months on Warby. I just go in and buy two or three pairs of glasses. And I think they do a fantastic job. I do a lot of their online stuff. It's very well integrated. Everything's well integrated.

Kara Swisher: On Running has got a huge market cap. It's this niche cool brand, Roger Federer, Swiss kind of engineering athletic wear.

Scott Galloway: Right. That's right. It threads the needle perfectly between wealthy people having too much money and making them feel like they're in the know. I wear On. It's a great little brand. It's also overvalued, but that's good.

Kara Swisher: The bad is Allbirds that has given into this bullshit metrics.

Scott Galloway: I don't think they have nearly the moats. They're trying to go public. I think that'll go out, but be an underperformer. But the ugly, quite frankly, is Rent the Runway.

Kara Swisher: Tell me why.

Scott Galloway: Well, I love the concept. I love the founders. It's like one of the few companies founded by two women. But it's a fucking shit show of a business. And the disclosures, the mandatory disclosures around revenue show this. Their revenues fell to $157 million last year from $256 million the year before, and the loss was $171 million in 2020. So you think, okay, but it was a pandemic year. But this year in the first six months, they lost $85 million on $80 million in revenue. So what you have here is a company with negative EBITDA margins of 100 plus percent. And that's okay if you're growing really fast and showing some scale or increases in contribution margin that result in a decrease in loss. There's no evidence of that. What we have here is a company cemented in the following value proposition: the only way Rent the Runway works is if they give you $2 worth of service and they charge you $1.

The other thing, in poker, there's something called a tell, and that is you see someone sweat or twitch and they reveal something they didn't want you to know. And there's a tell here. Last year, Rent the Runway did a smallish $25 million round at a down round. And it's not the down round that's the tell here. It's the $25 million round, because the people around the table here are some of the biggest investors in private and venture. They are. And their biggest problem right now is how do we shovel the billions of dollars that we have taken in into companies and put it to work? So if the people around this table thought this was anything but a fucking cash incinerator that was going nowhere, they would have stuffed $200 or $300 million into this company. And here's what's happening. They've decided that the IPO market is the greater fool, and they're using the IPO market as a life raft.

Kara Swisher: Ah, that's what I was going to ask you. That was my next question. Why then IPO? It's not going to happen.

Scott Galloway: Not going to happen. The markets, I do believe in the markets. The markets are going to slam the fire door shut. They slammed it one week before WeWork. You watch. They're going to start making excuses for why they're waiting for market conditions to improve or to show better numbers. I don't think this thing ever gets public. And also, worse than that, the business makes no sense. It's been around 12 years. The investors must have very tired legs. Every day, this thing doesn't get sold. And they have value. They have a customer. They have a nice brand. There are other retailers that want to be in this business. This thing is not getting public and it's sold hopefully in the next six months.

Kara Swisher: Right. But talk about what you like about it. You said, "I like the concept." The concept was, for people who don't know, is that you—it's changed and morphed over time. But if you wanted to have dressy clothes, you didn't want to buy the dress and you wanted to try lots of fashion, you would rent it. You would rent the runway essentially. And then it turned into a subscription business where they'd send you clothes for work and then you could buy stuff too. There's lots of different things they've iterated. Great idea. I happen to use Stitch Fix. I still do. I like it very much. And I buy quite a bit. I buy a couple hundred dollars a month from it because they've sort of got my number finally, when they realized I was an asexual, tasteless lesbian. It's true. They wrote me a note saying, "We finally figured you out. You have no taste." Which I appreciated. But talk to me about where you like it and how it could work.

Scott Galloway: Well, it's a great concept. It's great for sustainability. It's a really attractive value proposition.

Kara Swisher: There's another word that they're using, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Well, technically more people should be able to use these products and get more use out of them. It's a great idea. I got invited to this great fundraiser. I'd love to wear this Oscar de la Renta or great, fantastic Gucci dress or whatever. I would never pay $7,000 for this dress, but I will pay $100 or $150, whatever it is a month. It's a great concept.

Kara Swisher: Here's the problem. They also do other things. They don't just do fancy anymore.

Scott Galloway: Go ahead.

Kara Swisher: They've gone into other categories and you can buy the clothes.

Scott Galloway: The problem is, I don't know if it's operational on the supply chain, the business just doesn't work. I mean, the numbers don't lie here. They have not figured out a way to not hemorrhage money. And so, by the way, Casper was a great deal when it first came out because they were giving you a $1,200 mattress for $700. And that's what you're getting here. I imagine consumers love it because they're getting $2 worth of service for only paying $1. Netflix did the same thing. Amazon did the same thing, and that worked out. But every time they grew, they were able to reduce their losses. There's no evidence there's any scale here.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, growth is what they needed, and the pandemic kicked it in the teeth, and it may not have been growing anyway.

Scott Galloway: So it's a specialty retailer that's been around 12 years with 100% negative EBITDA margins, and it's trying to position itself as a tech company. It's not. It's Hertz. It buys products and it leases them out. And they now have good tech. But once COVID hit, Hertz was out of business and declared bankruptcy. And this is a very similar item. And I was really bummed because I—and the thing that did piss me off, and I thought I'm going to keep quiet about this because I really like these founders. The thing that pisses me off is all of these companies are putting in place dual-class shareholder structures. And I got to imagine the two founders of Rent the Runway, who are both very impressive women, own less than 10% based on all the rounds and all the dilution. But they've decided they need to maintain control so they can continue to create a Chernobyl-like incinerator. It's just—I mean, I guess what's good for the goose is good for the gander. But all these companies, I do hope the markets start to check back on this dual-class shareholder structure. I think it's bad for shareholder governance.

Kara Swisher: I agree. So on this topic of subscriptions versus ownership, GM said this week that it expects its in-car subscription service to generate $25 billion by the end of the decade. People might be okay with not owning DVDs and records, okay not owning their clothes and their car. You know, I struggle with the car ownership, as you know. I've written about it several times. So this is essentially just renting rather than car subscriptions, right? Isn't that just renting? But I guess it's a long—or is it leasing or what?

Scott Galloway: It's kind of the same thing. Yeah. It's kind of the same thing. And it's an idea, whether you call it recurring revenue or a bundle, Tesla is the company to do it. But Cadillac was doing it for a little while. They basically say, "All right, we know you love the brand. And we know your taste. And every six months, we're going to park two amazing cars in your driveway that we think you would love. And you pick the one you want, and we take the other one back." Or every three years. Or based on your economic weight class. And buying a car is awful. And we make this mistake over and over. And that is believing that choice is a good thing. It is not. Consumers don't want more choice. They want to be more confident in the choices presented. And with fairly easy AI and personal touch, you could figure out the cars we want and help us avoid the nightmare industrial automobile retail complex that is auto dealerships. It really is. It's gotten better. I like Carvana. I like all these interesting, innovative new ways to buy it. There's a ton of innovation, but it's all playing off the same thing, and that is buying car sucks.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it does. That is pretty much the ad for all of these.

Scott Galloway: What would be interesting is if there's a play here that involves crypto. I wonder if Tesla is going to launch a coin, and everyone that has a coin has a right to have a Tesla at any time of their choosing, and it'll take on as a store of value, and people will buy a Tesla coin. That's what I would do if I were Elon Musk.

Kara Swisher: So you would have a Tesla. I would use a Tesla sometimes, but I don't want to buy one, if that makes sense.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, but think about if you owned a Tesla coin, right? And it might have value, and given how crazy the markets are, it might end up being a tradable asset. And owning this coin gives you access to any Tesla. You can't trade them in every three days. You can only trade them in every six months or every year, but you get to have a Tesla. Sort of like I trade in my Apple every year, my Apple phone.

Kara Swisher: That's right.

Scott Galloway: And you issue new coins based on your production or based on your increase in production supply. So you end up with an asset that might be tradable. You end up with massive ability to raise money. I quite frankly, this could go a lot of different places. I think Stanford's going to issue a coin. I think the best hospital systems are going to issue a coin.

Kara Swisher: What would be the coin for?

Scott Galloway: Anyone in your family that meets certain minimum qualifications can come to Stanford, can engage in our alumni network, in our programming, and we're going to issue 30,000 of them. And what do you think that coin goes for? A million dollars a pop. Overnight, Stanford raises $30 billion. Better than that, the Langone Medical Center in New York, one of the finest medical centers in the world, says, "You know what? All the insurance, all the billing, all the bullshit, all the admin, we take it off you. Buy a Langone coin and from cradle to death we take care of everything. No insurance forms. The best medical practice. People get to have participate."

Kara Swisher: I'm not going—okay, I'm not saying it's good, but what you could have is rich people could buy coins and donate them to people in need. You could get around that.

Scott Galloway: Oh, great charity. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Kara Swisher: We're back to like the poor houses. And I'm not talking about what should. I'm talking about what I think will happen. Are there no poor houses? Are there no—oh my God, I don't like any of this, Scott Galloway. The edibles are just kicking in.

Scott Galloway: So I think that there's going to be a collision. Crypto might be able to monetize the scarcity value of incredibly scarce assets that we don't think about through a consumer lens, specifically aspirational universities and access to aspirational healthcare. And you're right, I'm not sure it's a good thing.

Kara Swisher: I like all these ideas. I think they should bring Nick Clegg in as the PR person for it.

Scott Galloway: That's right. A kidney coin. Need a kidney? Do you got a coin? Let's see who would do that.

Kara Swisher: Let's bring in our friend of Pivot, Eli Saslow. Eli is a Pulitzer Prize-winning author and roving reporter with The Washington Post. Since the start of the pandemic, he's traveled to every corner of the country collecting first-person accounts of Americans dealing with COVID and its fallout. He selected 27 of those personal tales for his new book, *Voices from the Pandemic: Americans Tell Their Stories of Crisis, Courage, and Resilience*. I love these stories. They have been incredibly moving and also make me see people who I don't agree with. Welcome, Eli Saslow. Welcome.

Eli Saslow: Thank you.

Kara Swisher: So I love this series. I have to say some of the best writing has been yours on these people because it actually humanized, not just humanized them because it's happened to humans, but also that it makes you question things and disagree with people, but in a better way. So I want you to talk about how you decided to do the project and your expectations.

Eli Saslow: Sure. I really appreciate that. This was a different kind of project for me too. Usually my journalism is sort of embedded first-person journalism, where if I'm writing about somebody, I'm trying to go and be there with them. If they're going to the doctor, I go along. If they're being deported, I'm there in Mexico for their first week back. Particularly during the early weeks of the pandemic, it became clear that that kind of embedded narrative journalism was going to be really complicated, if not just totally unethical for me to get on a plane and go spend time with the people I wrote about. Instead, I tried to figure out how can I still tell intimate, personal stories about what's happening in people's lives at this historic moment without my eyes, without seeing them, without being there in person. And so I started making these really long phone calls to people whose lives were being sort of upended by the pandemic and sometimes talking to people for 15, 20 hours over the course of a week to sort of write about what they were dealing with in real time as the pandemic worsened.

Kara Swisher: And you did it all on the phone?

Eli Saslow: Almost all on the phone, yeah. Building trust with people from one phone call to the next. As the pandemic went on, I started getting on planes again. Certainly once I was vaccinated, started doing more reporting in person. But initially, it was mostly very long phone conversations, FaceTime calls, and then also having people sort of share their text messages, their Facebook posts, all of the things from their own lives with me.

Kara Swisher: So what was the reason you wanted to do this? Conceptually, I wouldn't imagine it would work, but it really does. A lot of them do, for sure.

Eli Saslow: I mean, I think really the reason was like my own compulsion to get outside of my own little pandemic bubble. I mean, we're all increasingly polarized in this country and certainly increasingly isolated by technology in so many different ways. But the pandemic exacerbated that for me personally more than anything else I can remember in my lifetime. Like we were sort of quarantined in our own homes, in our own little ideological bunkers. And my reporting instinct was, how can I find a way to get beyond that? And instead of thinking about myself and what's happening in my own life and inside my own living room, to hear about what's happening to other Americans who are dealing with different versions of this crisis all the time. And then in making phone calls to those people and talking to them, trying to make clear that I'm coming to them not from a place of judgment necessarily, but when possible from a place of understanding. I'm trying to understand what's happening to them, why they think the way they do, why they feel the way they do, and how things are proceeding in their lives.

Scott Galloway: You've done a great job cataloging and really putting a face on some of the real struggles people have, the mundane and the extraordinary through the pandemic. Have you thought about spending time—I'll put forward a thesis and ask if you've written about it. I feel like the dirty secret of this pandemic is we know what single mothers are going through. And there's been great reporting. We have an idea what people of color who are overweight are having to deal with or frontline workers are having to deal with. Have you written at all about how I believe wealthy people are living their best lives, that COVID has been accretive to their life? Have you spent any time with the top 1% documenting what the pandemic has meant for them?

Eli Saslow: Yeah, it's a great thesis, Scott, and I think you're spot on. I mean, in every way, the inequality that is so much at the heart of what America is and continues to be, I feel like has been exacerbated by the pandemic and we're seeing it, right? In many ways, the pandemic has started to sort of end for the people who are privileged enough to have it end. But meanwhile, on the other side, you mentioned single parents, people of color, kids who were in vulnerable situations before are so much more vulnerable because of this pandemic. And recently, I've been reporting a lot on school situations in the pandemic. I was spending a lot of time in a private school where the parents in the school have the resources to test kids constantly. They've been able to actually expand their space, expand their fundraising during the pandemic. Those kids have been in school for eight hours a day and have also had those educations augmented with tutoring on the side and everything else. Then I went and I started spending a bunch of time with an assistant principal in the Central Valley in California, a school of 2,000 kids. Over the course of the pandemic, they lost track of 486 of those kids. They didn't know what happened to them. Those kids didn't have technology at home. They were taking care of younger siblings. Their parents were—

Scott Galloway: Fell off the map.

Eli Saslow: Yeah, they fell off the map. And so this assistant principal, every single Wednesday, what he does is he gets in his car and he drives around the migrant camps and the trailer parks of the valley trying to figure out what's happened to these kids and if he can do anything to help sort of bring them back into the school system. So when you think about that kind of accelerating inequality, that the private school kids who already had the privileges before, their situation in many ways has stayed the same or gotten better, but their advantage has accelerated hugely because these other kids have not even been in school. They haven't been able to have any education. So I think that's really worrisome. And also it's why the story of this pandemic, I think, will continue for generations. And some of my work as a reporter, I think, I hope, will be continuing to document the long tail of this pandemic in people's lives well after it ends.

Kara Swisher: So one of the things that you also did is not just people are doing better, but this was before the anti-vax movement took hold. But you had described encounters with anti-maskers, which is sort of the next—anti-vax is sort of the next step of this, this idea of vaccine mandates. We talked about them earlier with possibly Southwest and all kinds of things that are happening, but there's resistance. So talk a little bit about talking to people you don't—because your empathy is quite large. I think I would just—I don't know what—I just couldn't listen. So talk a little bit about listening to people you really don't like or agree with.

Eli Saslow: Yeah, it can be a challenge. And I think, you know, sometimes as a journalist and a reporter but also hopefully as a human, what I try to figure out how to do is what are the parts of this person's experience that I can empathize with? No, like I cannot empathize with somebody's idea that this virus doesn't exist and somebody who's spreading disinformation and conspiracy theories online, but hopefully I can still empathize with them once they're in the hospital and about to be intubated and the pain that they're experiencing and their families are experiencing. So I think a big part of just forming connection with people, no matter how we do that in our lives, is figuring out what are the things about this person's experience that makes me curious, that makes me feel something. And sometimes even if the thing that makes you feel is anger, that's okay to lean into that and let that guide your curiosity. The fact that this person has fallen into this dark tunnel of disinformation, it's infuriating to me, but it's also really fascinating. And I want to try to figure out how that happened. And that was a lot of this reporting because you're right that these tunnels of disinformation are vast. And also they include huge numbers of people in our country.

One of the pieces in this book is about this woman named Amber Elliott, who's the public health director in a county in Missouri where nobody in that county wanted to mask. Nobody in that county now really wants to get vaccinated. I think their vaccination percentage is still in the mid-30s. And Amber, her job was to try to keep this community safe. And so she'd organized a forum where the doctors at the overwhelmed hospital came to try to speak to the community about the virus and what was happening. And the doctors showed up at this community theater and got booed and things thrown at them and got booed off the stage, the people who were in charge of saving this place. And Amber, this low-level public official, her kids were being followed to their baseball games by anti-maskers and things like that. And so, you know, I think some of the work of being a journalist is when there are big fundamental problems in our country that are impacting all of us, to try to examine them and understand them and try to figure out what makes people fall into these dark places. And during a pandemic in particular, like times of high fear, high anxiety, I think we go toward disinformation naturally more quickly.

Kara Swisher: We talk a lot about Facebook as a vector for COVID misinformation. What role did, say, Facebook or social media play in the lives of your subjects?

Eli Saslow: Huge roles. Where they got most of their information? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, in part because I think people spend more time on Facebook because of the pandemic than ever before. Many of the people that I was talking to, that was their only source of connection. So, for instance, if you're spending half of your day on Facebook going through your newsfeed, first of all, as we all are cultivating our own newsfeeds, that information is very likely to be confirmational. It doesn't challenge our biases or the way we think about the world. It comes from people who think like us. And so people who already are headed into a direction of, "I'm not sure if I really believe what the government is telling me," or "I'm very distrustful of big pharma or vaccines," they're likely to be friends with people who think the same things. And if you see those things again, again, again, again, when you're having very little contact with the outside world. When you're just sitting and really your life is occurring on the screen in front of you, I think that that grows those ideas. And there aren't people around you to challenge them if you're isolated in your own home and you're not going to work, you're not moving through the world in different ways. So certainly that was a huge issue for many of the people that I spent the year talking to. And also on the reverse side of the disinformation, I think the anger that so many Americans feel right now, and in some cases really righteous indignation, was a surprise to me.

Kara Swisher: Angry at?

Eli Saslow: Angry at the systemic dysfunction, the political dysfunction that they felt like worsened their experience of the pandemic and wondering why are things as bad as they are? Why were we as unprepared as we were? Why wasn't this handled better? Why wasn't the country more willing to shut down early and maybe that would have helped things? I think there's huge anger at how the virus was handled.

Scott Galloway: So Eli, I knew I recognized your name and I was doing a meeting with my team today and someone goes, "Oh, that's the food stamp guy." And I'm referring to Eli, he won a Pulitzer in 2014 for reporting on food stamps. And I remember reading about it and I had just—some of the stats I pulled up: one in seven Americans are on food stamps. A lot of grocery stores do 20% of their business on days that food stamps come out. Food stamps are a lifeline to individuals, community stores, and employees that stores hire. So relating that to COVID, what happens to the food stamp program coming out of the pandemic? What impact do you think this will have on food stamps?

Eli Saslow: Well, a massive impact. I mean, first of all, those stats that you read, those came out largely of sort of the fallout from the economic collapse in 2008, 2009. And what happened then is that, again, the high end of our economy recovered quickly and accelerated and did really well. But the food stamp numbers have not shrunk dramatically since then. People who were vulnerable then continue to be vulnerable. That's the part of our economy that never really recovers. I think we're going to be looking at a very similar situation. I also think that it means that programs like SNAP, the food stamp program, are massively important in a safety net that's going to be relied on to huge degrees by millions and millions of people. I mean, if you even just look at sort of the eviction numbers and what they would be without government assistance and eviction bans and programs to keep people in their homes, you're talking about 20% of Americans who would be losing the place where they live. So, you know, I think all of the work to sort of protect the people who are most vulnerable becomes massively important in the wake of what we've all just been through.

Kara Swisher: So I actually do have a last question. So you traveled the country before and after the vaccine rollout. I'd love to understand where you think we're going. One of the things I think you do really well is you treat everybody with dignity and great empathy, which is, as I said, difficult, I think, under the circumstance of anger or disinformation or ignorance. So tell me what changes you've noticed and what you think—what gives you hope, because your stories are quite hopeful, even if they're sad. And what worries you the most?

Eli Saslow: Yeah, great questions. I think the hope piece honestly is at the bedrock of my work and why I do it. It's that over the course of the pandemic, for me, actually, the most hopeful part was being on the phone with people who, even though they were going through massive amounts of trauma, often in real time while I was on the phone with them, they still had the capacity to trust a stranger to get on the phone with me, even though, again, I wasn't there as an advocate. I was a reporter. I didn't necessarily agree with them, but I was curious and I was asking them questions about their lives. And they, despite all of the other things going on, were able to form some kind of trust with me where they could narrate the circumstances of their lives honestly, with humanity, with empathy. And I think being reminded of our common humanity at a time when there was so much reason to be upset with the direction in our country was restorative in some ways. And I think for me always, when I start to feel hopeless about the way things are going, I try to think not about the numbers, which certainly in terms of COVID can become numbing when you think about how many people in this country have died and are sick. But I try to reduce it down to a human scale and to think about instead, like the one or two people that I know or that I care about or that I've gotten to know that have gone through things that to me are unimaginable and have still been able to do it with heart and with character. And that for me is something that even just personally kind of becomes a touchstone to think about when I'm dealing with things that are not nearly as hard as the things that the people that I write about are dealing with.

Kara Swisher: Well, excellent answer. This is a lot of humanity, and I think that it's a real service, these pieces. It really got me through a lot of stuff when I was very angry, in a lot of ways, too, like everybody else. Don't call me, I'll just rant at you. I like ranting. Anyway, the book is called *Voices from the Pandemic*. It's out now. Thank you, Eli Saslow.

Eli Saslow: Thank you both. I really appreciate it.

Kara Swisher: All right, Scott, what a guy. What an amazing reporter. I have to say they were really wonderful pieces.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, but you know what the most impressive thing is?

Kara Swisher: What?

Scott Galloway: He's dreamy. Oh my gosh. Look at that guy. I mean, can you imagine that guy at like, I don't know, some bar on the Upper West Side, like with those dreamy like Omar Sharif, George Clooney looks and somehow drops, "Oh yeah, when I got my Pulitzer." My God, the trouble I could have gotten into if I had either of those things. Jesus Christ.

Kara Swisher: You know what?

Kara Swisher: That's because he's a good person. He cares for the people. Oh, yeah, that's it. That's it.

[Break for advertisements]

Kara Swisher: Okay Scott, wins and fails. I'm gonna go first.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, you go first.

Kara Swisher: James Bond was so good. You can imagine why I've come back to play.

Scott Galloway: Oh, you saw it.

Kara Swisher: I did. I went into the theater. I bought seats all around me. I loved it. It was a good one because they're kind of hit or miss. They're kind of like 50-50. It was a good one. So good.

Scott Galloway: Huh?

Kara Swisher: It was long as all can be, let me just say.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: I could take or leave the villain. I just thought Daniel Craig was amazing. All these women around him. A lot of strong women characters around him, including a new 007. I think it's Lashana Lynch, who was also in Captain Marvel. She played her friend, the pilot. She spent a lot of stuff. I loved her. She was amazing.

Scott Galloway: What's that woman's name? Oh, God, I'm going to forget her name. Money Penny? No, Money Penny. Holly Goodhead? Pussy Galore. All Bond characters.

Kara Swisher: No, the woman who plays Money Penny is great. All the characters, the guy who plays Q was great. The guy who plays M is great. Jane Seymour? No, no. Ursula Andress? They're not there to show off. They're all together. They're there to be smart. I think it's Leah Sidhu. It was amazing. Everybody was good. And he was great. And let me just say, there's an ending, and it's appropriate. It's the bright ending. I'm not going to say what it is because I'm not going to give it away. But it ends beautifully. Good ending. Beautifully. Beautifully.

Scott Galloway: Really? I'm going to say it. I'm going to take my boys. I'm really excited.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, that's my win. I don't have a fail today. I just love James Bond. And I'm so happy.

Scott Galloway: I'm glad to hear it. My fail is these ridiculous changes in nomenclature. If we have a shitty business, we'll just change the language. Allbirds and even Rent the Runway are trying to come up with invented metrics. But I just think it's got to stop. I think the SEC needs to move in and demand certain nomenclature and terms so we can go apples to apples because we have a reduction in analyst coverage. Anyway, that's my loss. These consumer companies trying to come up with new terms, whether it's community-based EBITDA or EBITDA and Allbirds has a new... anyways, ridiculous metrics.

My win is I was really moved by this *15 Minutes of Shame*. And I don't know if you've noticed this, and of course I like to bring everything back to me. I've decided I don't get into arguments with strangers online and I don't hit back any longer. I think the best revenge, and I think there's a lesson in this, the best revenge you can have against any individual, if you want to serve them a cold lunch, is to live a much better life. And I've decided that I'm going to show more grace online. I fell into the trap of getting back in people's face. They'd say something stupid and they'd stick their...

Kara Swisher: You do get upset. You do get upset.

Scott Galloway: Well, they stick their chin out and I'd be like, okay, here it comes.

Kara Swisher: Not just that. I think you get upset when people are not nice to you online. I think that's more of a problem, actually, if I were to diagnose that.

Scott Galloway: I am a delicate little flower. But anyways, I've decided that I'm no longer... and I think there's a lesson here. I think we all need... and I took from this program... you don't have to respond to every slight. Sometimes when someone is not nice to you, it's not about you. It's about what the fuck is going on in their life right now. You don't know what's going on in their life.

Kara Swisher: That's true.

Scott Galloway: And if the only way we're going to take the temperature down... and I think we absolutely need to do that. I had a book party for Andrew Yang and it's one of the things I love about Andrew. He resists the temptation to go after his opponents.

Kara Swisher: He does, he does indeed.

Scott Galloway: I just think we all... if we all agree that our discourse has become more coarse... of course... just take the temperature down. It's okay if someone cuts you off on the road or if someone says something mean about you on Instagram. Who the fuck cares? Live your life. Invest in your relationships. Be more successful. Be stronger. Look better naked. Have sex with hotter people. Make more money. Be closer to your kids. Just live a better life. That's the best revenge. Anyways, my win is *15 Minutes of Shame*. It's validating a lot of the better decisions I'm making.

Kara Swisher: All right. Nice. I like it. I like that a lot, Scott. It's very, very nice. Although sometimes I do hit back on people who are rude to you.

Scott Galloway: You do.

Kara Swisher: Often I do, but I do it quietly and then they're dead, essentially. Anyway, Scott, that's the show. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Andretot engineered this episode. Make sure you're subscribed to the show on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Scott Galloway: The best revenge against anyone you feel has slighted you is simply to live a better life. Love more people. Have more of an impact. Be in better shape. Be the man or woman you want to be. Or a shift to the kidney.