Trump Comes for the Fed, The Redistricting Wars, and Guest Co-Host Gov. Gavin Newsom

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Kara Swisher: Oh my god, you're interrupting already. You're like Scott. Scott's coming back next week, and now I've got Scott Part 2. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and this is the final day of Scott Free August. That's my sting. I love it. We're going big for Scott Free August grand finale. My guest co-host is a podcaster. He's also the governor of California and possibly the only person that could match Scott in irritating me. It's Gavin Newsom. Welcome, Gavin.

Gavin Newsom: It is great to be with you. The final, the final day. When's Scott back? When's he back?

Kara Swisher: After Labor Day. We have a day off on Labor Day because we labor a lot.

Gavin Newsom: Yeah, and then he's back.

Kara Swisher: Okay.

Gavin Newsom: Has he been hibernating? Is he writing a book? What's he doing?

Kara Swisher: No, he's in Nantucket. He's in Nantucket or in Aspen. He goes to, like, rich people vacations all over the place. And then starts tweeting at the end of August because he wants to say something about not tweeting. He's on threads and stuff. But he, like, starts to try to engage again. And he's desperate to get back.

Gavin Newsom: Desperate to get back.

Kara Swisher: Desperate to get back.

Gavin Newsom: No, but if this works out well.

Kara Swisher: It's good to be back with you on this very special final episode of Scott Free August. Try to keep the hand gestures to a minimum because they're very irritating to the president.

Gavin Newsom: I know. I'm very sensitive. I mean, if people didn't see Trump attack my hand motions. He said that was, so I'm very sensitive now. You're right. I'm just going to forgive me. You're not going to see them again. I'll do my best.

Kara Swisher: Now, I like your hand motions. What's wrong with you? He does a lot of hand motions. Every accusation is a confession with these people. Another example of projection.

Gavin Newsom: Just one more. One more than you need.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, we're going to get to that today. Got lots of important issues. Redistricting the Fed, big tech. So talk, I think the most important thing we have to discuss is what do you think about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce?

Gavin Newsom: I think it's hard not to avoid that. Breaking the internet.

Kara Swisher: Breaking the internet. I was just thinking, you think it's going to be a big wedding or a small wedding? You think they'll do the opposite of what many people think? And where are they going to get married? Oh, like a Jeff Bezos thing?

Gavin Newsom: Yeah, I think it's going to be a little more. My son's going to be smaller. I just think they're going to intentionally do something to surprise people.

Kara Swisher: Oh, interesting. Not like a Super Bowl stadium kind of thing?

Gavin Newsom: No, I don't expect it's going to be all that. No, I think it's going to be family. I think it's going to be much more just communal. I don't expect it to be over the top.

Kara Swisher: Did it catch you off guard?

Gavin Newsom: No, they didn't catch me off guard.

Kara Swisher: Are you going to be invited?

Gavin Newsom: Come on. I don't know them. I literally never met either of them. I do have a one, you know, sorry, and I don't mean to do a little Trump thing on you, but I have a vineyard that's 13th Vineyard. It's the 13th license in Napa. And so I sent a bottle of 13th wine to her suite at the Super Bowl. That's my biggest connection to Taylor Swift. I have no other connection because she loves the number 13.

Kara Swisher: Do you want to have the wedding on your vineyard? Do you think she'd have it on your vineyard?

Gavin Newsom: No, I'm not promoting that.

Kara Swisher: Do you think she'd have it on your vineyard?

Gavin Newsom: I mean, that's the closest I am to Taylor Swift. Besides politics. Clearly, we share politics.

Kara Swisher: Okay, all right. Are you happy? Do you think this is a good thing?

Gavin Newsom: I think it's a great thing. I want her to be happy. She seems like a lovely person. And he's the real deal. Deep respect for him. So you know what? We need more. We need a little bit of happiness in a world where we're so—I mean, come on. This has been hard every day, including what happened this morning, the first week of school, right, in Minneapolis. So this is—so we can all use a little bit of that.

Kara Swisher: In the shooting, too. A little bit of love.

Gavin Newsom: That's true.

Kara Swisher: We can move on if you tell me your favorite song of hers.

Gavin Newsom: Well, I like all of her new songs from the old catalog. So this proves I'm a Swiftie. The old catalog.

Kara Swisher: No, well like the old cat—

Gavin Newsom: But I like all the new versions, Taylor versions, of all the new songs. So that's how comprehensive my respect for her and love is.

Kara Swisher: Okay, I'll move on from her. Anyway, we wish you well, Travis. I mean, Travis and Taylor. It's going to be a TT. It's going to be great. We are getting married in California, right?

Gavin Newsom: I hope so.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I expect so.

Gavin Newsom: That's my little pitch.

Kara Swisher: But I want to ask you about a less dynamic duo, Sean Hannity and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. They've challenged you to another debate. Will you accept?

Gavin Newsom: I'm getting on the little news first. Well, I think it's interesting that they challenged me because it only reinforced the first debate was Sean Hannity and Ron DeSantis. It wasn't against Ron DeSantis and the network and the platform itself, Fox. I think they're, I forgot, I don't mean to be too dismissive, but honestly, I kind of forgot that Ron DeSantis is still governor. And it was sort of a bit of a reminder. And I think maybe that's what it's all about.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I think they're having a hard time over there at Fox. Would you do it?

Gavin Newsom: I have no interest whatsoever. Literally, it's sub-zero interest.

Kara Swisher: I'm saying you've become quite a bit of the debate over there. Like they talk about you constantly.

Gavin Newsom: Yeah, no, it's a bit of an obsession. And so, no, he's, Sean and I have, I don't know, we're a little bit of separation now. I was gauging, you know, as you know, I went out a couple of years ago on a serious note, a really sort of challenged, a lot of my Democratic friends were upset, started showing up on Fox. I did this sit down interview with Sean. It was over an hour and a half unedited. I said, look, if you're going to come and interview me, let's do it, but no edits and let's go after me and I'll back and forth. And his credit, they did multiple segments and aired the entire interview unedited. And I sort of stayed in touch and that ultimately led to a debate with Ron DeSantis and a debate within my own party. Should we even condone? Should we show up? Should we be on these platforms? You're just elevating them or at least validating them in some respects. And I thought it was important that we got to meet people where they are and we've got to get in the bloodstream of those we disagree with. And so I've tried to maintain that. And I think it's important, but I think they're way out. They've completely lost the plot over there at Fox. There's a bit of a, you know, I look, I'm the first to acknowledge the Trump derangement syndrome, but they have a California derangement syndrome and increasingly derangement syndrome about me on Fox. I think the other night they did seven or eight segments with their primetime lineup. It's a little, it's not over the top. It's way over the top. And of course, at this moment, you may know this, I'm suing them as well for defamation. And I don't do that lightly. I've been on the receiving end of them as the punching bag for years and years and years. It's not about the criticism coming out of there. It's just the outright lies, mis- and disinformation. And so we're taking them to task, and we've got that defamation lawsuit in Delaware.

Kara Swisher: A conversation you had with Donald Trump, right? That they were alleging.

Gavin Newsom: Yeah, a conversation they said that we never had. The president said we had a day before that never existed. And then they came out and they said, I lied about it. And they shared that on all their platforms and they shared that around the world. I had people, honestly, it was like interesting, Kara, for all the stuff that's on Fox, you know, people are socialized, they turn on Fox, they'll see people like me getting attacked. But this one broke into folks that I knew well, said, hey, man, why did you lie about that? I said, what do you mean they lied about it? And I saw the chyron, it says Gavin lied. And it was just they knowingly lied about the conversation that never occurred. And the conversation that did occur, they did not contextualize. And they just crossed the line. And, you know, I thought after all the Dominion stuff and everything else, they had honestly at least feigned to change their ways, and they clearly haven't.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, well, we'll see what happens there. But one of the things that's important is you are the topic discussion. Part of it is because of the stuff you're up to right now, which I think is really interesting, as you know. We've talked about it a little bit. We texted about it. But I want to talk about your new role. I guess troll-in-chief, I don't know, as one newspaper put it. But in the last few weeks, you've flooded social media with all caps, posts, insults, AI-generated memes mocking Trump and his policies. You recently got into the merch game selling MAG-inspired Bibles, red hats, and even Make America Gavin Against Slack, which is really funny. Fox News has been melting down, as you said. Dana Perino said, if she were your wife, she'd tell you you're making a fool of yourself. And while a lot of liberals are loving this, you have critics on less. Of course, you say the Democrat party needs to do more than be an anti-Trump party. I disagree. I think this is highly effective, especially that you're not stopping. So talk a little bit. I'd love to know this. I have an idea of why you think you're doing it. Talk about the strategy. I have theories on it, but I'd love to hear it from you.

Gavin Newsom: I just wanted to put a mirror up to the absurdity of all of this. And I wish Dana Perino and others have made that point months and months, years ago. All the old cap tweets that Trump putting himself on memes as the Pope or putting him means a Superman or with his shirt off and, you know, on top of, you know, different, you know, superhero characters or, you know, dinosaurs. I mean, it's just, it's comical. And yet it's become so normalized and socialized in a way that's not even critiqued in the extreme right. And so I just wanted to challenge that and challenge all these pundits out to challenge all these people, all these acolytes, people that are just fawning over a guy who puts his picture up on Mount Rushmore that does text like a 13-year-old or a 10-year-old. It's humiliating. It's embarrassing. And so this is the mirror. And it's a mirror not just to Trump himself, but to these networks that, you know, these guys talk about, you know, these are the chatbots for the administration. And it's not just Fox. It's One American News. It's Newsmax. And it's all the folks in the right-wing media. And I'm glad they're melting down over. I'm glad they're challenged. I mean, their situational unawareness is rather jaw-dropping.

Kara Swisher: So what was the strategy? How did you come up with it? And you have given credit to the whole team in creating these memes. But someone asked me about it, and I said, well, this does sound like him, the person I know. You can be very funny and cutting and sarcastic and stuff like that. This is like, it's sort of in your wheelhouse to sort of do this. Talk about how it's made in the strategy.

Gavin Newsom: I appreciate it. Look, I think there's one answer to that, and then there's a subtext. This thing, really, it's about iteration. I've always been willing to try new things. So I'm always trying to challenge my team, just let's see what works. I mean, that's why I went on Fox. That's why I did the debate with Ron DeSantis. That's why I was the first Democrat to go on Truth Social. That's why I started a PAC a few years ago and only went to red states and started raising awareness and resources in parts of the country where I feel the Democratic Party walked away. And so it's part of that, but it's also specifically part of what we were on the receiving end of after the fires in January in L.A. And before that. And just a different level of mis- and disinformation. And to your point about before that, look, the recall, these guys, you know, I'm romantic. I always think all politics is local. I was sort of born and bred with that construct. But that's not the case, obviously. And I intellectualized that, but I never fully internalized it until the recall. And I had guys like Newt Gingrich, and I had folks like Mike Huckabee and the RNC nationalizing their grievance. And of course, all the folks at Fox and One American News, et cetera, coming after us. So I started to shift our approach then. It really got into high gear after the fires where Trump and Elon Musk were coming after us. And they were winning on the just rank lies about water policy and all the BS. But the National Guard, the National Guard and what they did to federalize 4,000 of our National Guard men and women and put 700 active duty military on the streets of L.A. That's when we just said we're on the other side of this. And we told the team it's no permission slip now, not even forgiveness. You just go and we go hard and we don't stop.

Kara Swisher: And you don't stop. That's what's interesting about it, because it's relentless, which is very different. I had told, I think it was Kamala Harris, like, you've got to be almost promiscuous now from a social media point of view. You have to be everywhere constantly and not stopping, which I think characterizes this quite a bit. And when you hear criticism is too much or cringy or even from the left or right, how do you answer that?

Gavin Newsom: You know how I answered it? Kind of interesting, because I haven't really said this publicly. But I send my team a YouTube video of Marshawn Lynch on 60 Minutes Sports when he was asked his running style. And he says, going into the front line, goes over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. And so this notion of communication, I could not agree with you more. Trump's success is the simplicity to which he communicates the same thing in that cadence over and over and over and over and over again. And we move week to week. It's infrastructure week and all of a sudden that child care week and it's foster care week. And as a consequence, we have weak messaging and they're winning the narrative war. Illusion rules. Facts don't matter. That's what Fox understands. That's what Trump understands. He floods the zone and we're constantly on our heels and not on our front toes. And so what we're trying to do is, yes, fight fire with fire, with the redistricting, substance, and in terms of our communication, style. And we're trying to keep at it. And we've done it. Look, you mentioned, you know, the Patriot store. You know, just look at the stuff he's selling. Perfumes.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Gavin Newsom: This is embarrassing. The guy's hawking Bibles. Ours is sold out. So if you want it, sorry, it's sold out.

Kara Swisher: I was hoping to get one.

Gavin Newsom: And if you want a real prediction, I know we talked about the Taylor Swift prediction. The real prediction is, you know, we're about to put a meme coin out. And you know what, Donald Trump? We'll see how well your coin does versus our coin. I mean, we're just trying to turn up the heat.

Kara Swisher: The meme coin. Is it going to be called Gavin coin?

Gavin Newsom: No, it's, I think, Trump corruption coin.

Kara Swisher: Oh, okay. That's a little problem.

Gavin Newsom: This is one of the great grifters of our time. This is just jaw-dropping. And none of this is normal. Again, none of this is funny. I mean, it's funny in one respect. You're being funny. It's extraordinary. What's going on? It's jaw-dropping. His family is sent out before these foreign trips doing deals. Deals are literally done before tariffs are imposed. The crony capitalism that's going on, the people that are selling their souls in this country, the fact that you saw there, these guys bloviating at that. I mean, that was, I mean, insanity.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, the cabinet meeting. You're talking about the cabinet meeting. And Lutnik talking about socializing and nationalizing companies like Lockheed.

Gavin Newsom: I mean, and you worried about Mendoni and some grocery stores. And these guys are taking tithings from AMD, from NVIDIA. I mean, this is serious stuff. And so the graft and the corruption, the self-dealing is something that we'll continue to call out and just to be, I'm really worried about this country. I think we've crossed the red line. I think it is much more acute and profound than many people think. And I just try to wake people up. That's what this is all about. Wake up everybody.

Kara Swisher: So what is the next? It has to be this aggression, correct? Which, again, I think is the correct method. Others, you know, I think the Democratic Party is far too weak in that regard in terms of behaving when they're not behaving, right? That kind of thing.

Gavin Newsom: Yeah, look, I mean, it was so indelible. I don't know why I'm sort of stuck years and years in my mindset. And I remember, you know, and it's been well discussed, but I'll repeat it for the few folks that don't remember. But after we got shellacked in one of the midterms, I think Clinton was out of office and the Democratic Party lost. And people were trying to sort of hand ring and we were trying to figure out if we all need to go to Applebee's. And we were reading Applebee's America. And we all just, you know, we need to, you know, we need to go to the heartland, all this messaging stuff. And Bill Clinton just summed it up. He said, given the choice, given the choice, the American people always support strong and wrong versus weak and right. And I've been doing a lot of forensics, as you know, and people have criticized me for having folks that, my party disagrees with vehemently, like Charlie Kirk or Steve Bannon or Newt Gingrich, or even old school conservatives like Michael Savage on. It's to try to understand what the hell's happened to my party, the Democratic Party. But the more I've sort of mined it, the more I've gotten into the issues and reflected on what's happened, I think it comes down, I mean, at the core, it comes down to what you just said. It's about weakness. We appear so damn weak, and I can't take it anymore. And I think our brand has struggled, we're suffering from that. And so what I'm trying to express, it is desire to push back, to punch these guys back in the mouth. Forgive me, I know it's hard.

Kara Swisher: Yes, fight fire with fire. You know I wish you had punched harder with those interviews. So my whole thing was, for example, the Tucker Carlson interviews with Ted Cruz was a lot better than yours with Bannon. That's what I would say. You know what I mean? You had an opportunity to engage with him. Why not engage?

Gavin Newsom: Well, you know, and forgive me, you know, that was my second ever podcast. I'm not the pro that some of these others are, but I appreciate the insight. But also, let me say this. And sincerely, when I started the podcast, I said, I was very clear what this is and what this wasn't. I said, you want to see me debate, tune into Fox. Go online, see what I do every single day. I have no problem fighting these guys. I have no fighting debating. But what I'm trying to do is have a civil conversation because I want to understand. I think the main thing about the Bannon interview was I thought I was interviewing Bernie Sanders for half of it. He was talking about populism. He was making the case for California's tax code. Steve Bannon was. And, you know, I thought it was there was interesting aspects of that. And I think we're so tuned up in terms of wanting to tune people out because we reject obvious flaws that I want to create a space for folks where at least they can feel like we're going to have a civil dialogue.

Kara Swisher: And I totally get people upset about it. They rather seem nervous about you now, which is why, hence the attacks, correct? Presumably, it seems to be working for you, right?

Gavin Newsom: Well, yeah, and I'm trying not to make it for me. Look, I do think, you know, once a mind is stretched, it never goes back to its original form. I think Donald Trump understands that. That's why he throws things out. He sees what works. He's got his focus group, which is his rallies. And increasingly, he's doing that with the media. He does that every day, sort of testing those boundaries. And I'm trying to do the same a little bit as it relates to communication style, how we're iterating, trying new things, and trying to encourage other people. I'll take the arrows in the back. I'll do the first mover, but hopefully get other people to feel a little more comfortable in that space. And, you know, I see it a little bit. I saw Ken Martin at the DNC. He was a little more aggressive. I feel like we're getting back on our feet.

Kara Swisher: Okay. So do you have a—I'm going to get to the more serious thing of redistricting, but do you have a favorite of your memes? Calling Trump tiny hands was nice.

Gavin Newsom: You're getting prayed over by Tucker Carlson, Kid Rock, and an angelic Hulk Hogan. Oh, that was my favorite. There's a lot of user-generated, justy stuff going on with you there.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, they finally did some untouched photos of me without a shirt on, which is good to finally see something that's not edited. Is there one that you like that you're like, well done?

Gavin Newsom: No, I thought— And it's a team of people, right? I come on. I think God bless Hulk. I'm sorry for his passing. His family's lost. But I think that Tucker, Kid Rock, come on. That's why it's a T-shirt. It's available on the Patriot site. And, you know, before the meme coin, as I said, the Bible's already sold out. And I'd encourage you to that's going to be limited edition, that T-shirt.

Kara Swisher: Okay. I'm excited for the steak. Where do the proceeds from the Patriot shop go in the meme coin?

Gavin Newsom: Well, and the mean coin that will soon be the Trump corruption coin available to all of you. All of those go to our campaign for democracy. They go for this effort on the redistricting. They go into this effort. They go into our effort to continue to raise awareness and continue to communicate and organize.

Kara Swisher: But let's talk more seriously. Your trolling has kicked into high gear about redistricting fight that started in Texas and clearly spread across the country. You signed two redistricting bills last week and called a special election for voters to approve the new congressional map aimed at countering Texas, adding five new GOP seats. If the ballot measure passes, Democrats could pick up as many as five House seats in 2026. And meanwhile, Trump said this week the DOJ will sue California over the move. It's also divisive a little bit. Former California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has been vocal in opposing the plan. But on the other hand, Danny DeVito chipped in $1,000 to support it. for people who don't know that. You're driving a wedge between the classic twins stars from the 80s. Talk a little bit about what you're doing here. And, of course, there's been innumerable think pieces of, has he bitten off more than he can chew? Is this the way to go? Could other red state governors start to participate as well as blue state governors? But, of course, they're going to do that anyway. I mean, that punditry is so naive, it's not even worth the paper it's printed on. I mean, the idea that Trump was going to stop at Texas was absurd to begin with.

Gavin Newsom: Remember, it was Trump who started this. They drew a proverb of first blood. It was Trump that called Abbott, said, I am entitled. Not the words he used in that first phone call, but weeks later, he said he's entitled to five seats. He is trying to rig the election before one vote is cast. What more evidence did we need than January 6th, where he tried to light democracy on fire and wreck this country and tried to dial up for 11, almost 12,000 votes to the secretary of state in Georgia. Now he's doing it in plain sight. You saw him yesterday. He was in the Oval Office with the Speaker of the Indiana Legislature and the Senate chair saying, we need to do what J.D. Vance was assigned to tell you to do a week ago. You need to move in Indiana, in Missouri. And of course, Ron DeSantis will do anything, the guy asks, in order to get back in his good graces. So these guys are going. They're not screwing around. And we can't screw around either. And so, yeah, we're pushing back. We'll neutralize what's happened in Texas. But we need other Democrats in other states to do the same thing. This is it. You don't get a do-over. This thing can end.

Kara Swisher: Is that happening? How are you organizing them?

Gavin Newsom: Well, I'm trying to back to this notion once the mind is. I'm hoping the legislative leaders in those states are putting pressure. I know the governors like Moore and others, Wes Moore has talked about it in Maryland. Obviously, Kathy Hochul's talked a little bit about it. Pritzker's talked a bit about it. But we got to move. You know, as we pray, we have to move our feet. It's action. So we got to go. And look, back to biting off a lot. We can shoot. I get that. You know, we had to do it in a different way. We're doing it a transparent way, a temporary way where we're keeping our independent redistricting, which we've had for 15 years. But in a temporary basis, we're responding to what Trump has done and what Texas has done in an emergency manner in 26, 28 and in 2030 for congressional seats only. And we're doing it in the most Democratic way of any state in U.S. history. There's never been maps put to the voters. So they'll decide for themselves.

Kara Swisher: As opposed to the to this separate majority in a in a state.

Gavin Newsom: Yeah. Or or whatever Mar-a-Lago map, you know, riding folks are sending their way, which I mean, this is so, you know, this this is the contrast in the approach. And and again, we're just we're trying to be accountable to this moment. I'm not interested in holding hands and talking about the world should be. I'm not going to be the ex-governor sitting there in some think tank putting on a white paper saying, you know, I can't take that anymore. Enough, everybody. We got to get in the ring.

Kara Swisher: So do you feel that you'll be able to neutralize you and other blue state governors be able to do that?

Gavin Newsom: I just, you know, I hope so. But even if we can't, they know that Trump did this because he knows he's going to lose. And he knows he's going to lose because he's singularly the most. He's lost in Iowa.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, he's the most. But he's lost yesterday in Iowa. in that local race, which was great, that statewide race.

Gavin Newsom: But the point being, he continues to lose. He's going to lose in Virginia. He's going to lose in New Jersey in those governor's races. He's going to continue to see his polls are some of the worst in American history. His policies are the most unpopular in modern American history. He's flailing every single day. That's what all these threats and the mortgage stuff is all about, going after enemies, threatening to arrest people. He's falling apart. And as I continue to say, he's weakness masquerading as strength. And so we have to be assertive and we have to recognize that there are no limits with this guy. And he'll do, if he can rig next year's election, you're not, I mean, we joke about not having another one. I don't think that's a joke. He will wire this for the next 20, 30 years. If it's a JD or if it's a, I don't, it doesn't even matter. He will wire it. He's already sending out mass people to intimidate folks. When we launched our campaign, he did it down in Little Tokyo in L.A. Do you think ICE is not going to show up around voting and polling booths to chill participation?

Kara Swisher: You know that. The National Guard, you know that. Everybody knows what's at stake. So we have to put a stake in the ground and do things differently. For all the funny stuff you're doing, you're absolutely right. And what do you say to people like Schwarzenegger and others, Munger, who are like, let's not do this. Let's not go here.

Gavin Newsom: Well, it's romantic. We can do a group hug. We can talk. I want to go back to that place too, but we're not in it. I mean, it's just they've lost the plot about the world we're living in right now. Trump doesn't play by a different set of rules. He doesn't play by any rules. You're a fool if you engage in a contest playing by the rules, and the other side doesn't play by any rules. The consequences of that are profound. This is about the architecture of our country. This is about co-equal branches of government, popular sovereignty. This is about the rule of law versus the rule of Don. There is no independent redistricting to those two in the future if Trump wires this election. There's none, it's over. They have to recognize that. And I get why they're holding on to this romantic notion. And by the way, I respect their point of view so much so that we maintain the Independent Redistricting Commission. But in an emergency manner, we respond to this moment. That's it. So summed up, it's the Patrick Swayze roadhouse rule. Be nice until it's time not to be nice.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I mean, you know, I guess. And look, we all want to be nice. And we all want to get back to that. You know, we want the Aaron Sorkin. We want the music in the background. I want that. We all want to go back to West Wing. You know, I want to, you know, but that's not Trump's America. It may not be the United States of America if we don't wake up. Wake up, everybody.

Gavin Newsom: All right, Governor, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Trump's unprecedented move to control the Fed, another version of this.

[Ad Break]

Kara Swisher: Governor Newsom, we're back. President Trump is escalating his push to control the Federal Reserve, announcing this week he is removing federal governor Lisa Cook. Trump posted his letter to Cook on Truth Social, saying there was, quote, "sufficient cause for removal," citing unproven allegations of mortgage fraud. Cook plans to sue with their lawyer, arguing Trump has no authority to order the firing. It looks like that. The Fed, for its part, is defending its independence, but says it will abide by whatever the courts decide. This is almost certainly going to the Supreme Court. Talk a little bit about this, and then I want to talk about what's happening in the cities that you referenced before.

Gavin Newsom: No, I mean, it's what we were just talking about in the last section. It's not the rule of law. It's the rule of Don. There are no constraints anymore. And with this Supreme Court, there may actually not be any constraints. It's already eliminated one co-equal branch of government. Ron Johnson's run to the woods. It's irrelevant. It's Mike Johnson. It's whatever his name is. He's the representative of a district, Shreveport, Louisiana, that has six times the murder rate of Nancy Pelosi's San Francisco. It's that guy that I'm referring to. And so there is no co-equal branch of government. And the question is, is there a third branch, the judicial branch? And with the Supreme Court, it's an open-ended question. And so it's an open-ended question of whether or not he, quote unquote, "for cause," can have her fired. And if you can have her fired, you can have any of the board members fired, not just Chair Powell. And then you can start getting rid of all the regional presidents. So now you don't have an independent monetary system. You don't have the truth and trust around the globe. And now we're in, what, Argentina? We're in Turkey. We're back to the good old days of Nixon and the inflationary impacts of his decisions and impacts on the Fed policy that we all enjoyed in the 70s. And so this is, again, just another proof point of the world we're living in and why it's essential that everyone disabuse themselves that we can operate as we have in the past.

Kara Swisher: Do you imagine where he's going to strike next? Obviously, he's talking of militaries in more cities. As we talk on Wednesday, the president is still suggesting Chicago, Baltimore, and New York are next. He's mentioned San Francisco. The president has said, quote, "I have the right to do anything I want. I'm the president of the United States," in response to sending the National Guard to Chicago. Speaking of deploying troops to Baltimore, Trump wrote, "If Westmore needs help, like Gavin Newsom did in L.A., I will send in the troops." Meanwhile, in D.C., the National Guard, who were sent to deal with a crime emergency, has been picking up trash as a part of a beautification mission. What say you? Because you did he help you in L.A.?

Gavin Newsom: Yeah, no, I mean, we could have used the help because we had to protect the National Guard. We could have used the help after he federalized them. It was the California Highway Patrol and the LAPD that actually had to protect the military because they had become the attractive nuisance for protests. But he offered no help in that respect. The vast majority, I'll remind you, thousands and thousands of our National Guard—by the way, police officers, firefighters, teachers that were pulled off the beat and their day jobs—ended up in the armories doing literally nothing. Hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayers' money. They had nothing to do. And the few hundred that were assigned at any different time, again, had to be protected by local law enforcement. So this isn't, obviously, none of this has anything to do with public safety. Quite the contrary. It's about power, dominance, and aggression. The only thing he understands. And the question is, does he have the legal right? And we completely reject that. And I say that because I think it's important to highlight for your audience. We are not just saying that. We have asserted that. And we were in federal court two weeks ago doing oral arguments. We deposed members of the Trump administration under the Posse Comitatus framework that the U.S. military cannot be deployed for domestic law enforcement purposes. And Justice Breyer is about to adjudicate, have the first judgment, first opinion that will be published ever on the Posse Comitatus case that could have a real impact on what Trump is doing all across the United States. And so we're trying to assert ourselves in the courts, not just the court of public opinion, and push back against what he's doing. But I said this literally months ago, that L.A. is a preview of things to come. D.C. is a preview of things to come in every major city across this country.

Kara Swisher: What do you do if you're a guy? You can't keep them out, correct? You couldn't get the troops into California.

Gavin Newsom: No, we just have the legal authority to at least fight it out in the courts. And we hope the rule of law and the constitutional provisions that we've enjoyed and frankly often taken for granted for 249 years ultimately win the day. But yeah, you're right. I mean, he has the legal right to federalize troops. He doesn't have the legal right, however, to militarize our streets for domestic law enforcement. And that is crystal clear under the Posse Comitatus Act. And those limits are very, very clear. And it's a question of whether or not ultimately the United States Supreme Court will agree with that. And that's an open-ended question, sadly.

Kara Swisher: Can those mayors in Chicago, Baltimore, and New York keep them out?

Gavin Newsom: They can't legally unless the courts intervene. And the courts need to intervene or Congress needs to do their job. Obviously, we've already established that. But can I say this just on the topic? Democrats need to be careful about this. You know, you're in San Francisco. And just a reminder, full disclosure, and this may offend some people. Two years ago, I deployed the California Highway Patrol and the National Guard under state authority in partnership with city leaders and state leaders, and also engage the federal government, the FBI, with the Biden administration in terms of federal law enforcement, state and local law enforcement actions to address some of the fentanyl and drug issues in San Francisco. We then did a similar model in Oakland, California, and we've now rolled that out in many different parts of the state. It is in stark contrast, obviously, to what Trump is doing. He's doing it *to* people, not *with* any of us. But the issue of crime and quality of life is something Democrats need to recognize that we need to reconcile and we need to be accountable for all of us. And this is not a permission slip for the way Trump is doing things, quite the contrary. But it is an acknowledgement that he's hitting on an issue that is an issue across this country. In red states, eight of the top 10 murder states are red states, with blue cities. It doesn't matter. It's not a political issue. It's about issues of crime and violence and quality of life that universally all Americans want us to address.

Kara Swisher: So how do you say, okay, one of the things that a lot of people are telling me is a lot of people do agree on some of the things and they always follow it, but not like this, right? Like whatever Trump's doing, the immigration stuff, I'm concerned about it, but not like this. This is not how to fix it. How do you message that? Because a lot of the messaging is, as you just said, crime is heavier in Shreveport than it is in San Francisco, right? And it's true. But people don't feel that. Telling them it's down 24%, it's down this, is not... I was talking to someone years ago in San Francisco about the problems here. And it's not as bad as, of course, Fox depicted it, which drove me crazy. I was like, it isn't. But you also can't meet it by saying murder is down, because it's like my car got broken into. You got it. And even if it doesn't, it's not the same, obviously. It is a way of life, right? It's a feeling of lack of safety. How do you message that without messaging, we don't want these troops here to help us clean it up?

Gavin Newsom: Well, I think it's beyond even messaging. You got to do the work. I mean, that's why I hired an additional 1,000 CHP officers. That's why we've deployed all across the state, not just in San Francisco, where we launched this two plus years ago. That's why we changed a lot of the laws as it relates to organized retail theft. In fact, I had one of the biggest takedowns of organized retail theft in California history recently, just a couple of days ago, related to Home Depots, using some of the new tools and laws that we passed. Look, I think you have to be accountable to actually doing the work and then communicate that work, not in a responsive way, but in a proactive way. And I think we were slow to do that, to be candid with you. After there were a few, just a handful of people promoting defund the police, I certainly wasn't one of them, but Fox weaponized that. The grievance machine was out there, surround sound 24/7. And we were slow to react to that. And they shape-shifted that. And we're sort of playing catch-up, even though a lot of mayors and governors have been very proactive on policing. And look, we have the second lowest homicides in recorded history in California. We're down 10.4%, and again, from double-digit declines the prior year on crime. But to your point, we're not leading with that because no one cares about that if they feel differently. And so I think we have to own that. We have to flood the zone in terms of our alternative strategy and approach. And then we have to communicate them every single day. And again, that's where he's so damn effective. And there's an asymmetry to that because he's the president of the damn United States.

Kara Swisher: Is it working, these troop deployments? Do you think it's working for him?

Gavin Newsom: I don't think it's working. I know it's had unbelievable... Every single Tuesday in California, we announce, we call it, and forgive the vernacular, we call it Takedown Tuesdays. In a transparent way, we've been updating the public on the arrests and going after stolen vehicles, back to car break-ins and issues related to quality of life and keeping people aware of what's going on. But it's hard because these things don't get attention like Trump's Truth Social gets attention. And so that's why I do agree with you, back to the pivot in the previous point. Pivot figuratively and literally in this case with you, that we also have to pivot back to a much more, dare I say, muscular—not from, I know, muscular, but not through a gender frame—muscular approach to communication. A little more smash mouth, dare I say, in terms of our ability to get the message out of what we're doing.

Kara Swisher: Or talk very clearly, someone like Zoran Mandan, he's talking about costs, right? Or something that they have. How do you look at his communication skills, for example? Because New York is in the crosshairs here, too, if he wins, especially.

Gavin Newsom: Yeah, I mean, as I said, it sounds like Trump's been paying a lot of attention to him with his desire to socialize great American companies and continue to invest like he did with Intel and others. But beyond that, no, I think it's unbelievably effective. His grassroots, his ability to utilize social media, meet people where they are literally and physically, meaning he's out in the streets. He's talking to real people. And he's been able to connect with folks in a very visceral way. And so there's, back to this notion, success leaves clues. And there's a lot of successful campaigning ideas that he's advanced. The question is governing. And governing is a radically different thing than campaigning and communicating.

Kara Swisher: Absolutely. But the hostility to him is quite high, correct?

Gavin Newsom: Of course. Of course.

Kara Swisher: Why is that?

Gavin Newsom: Well, for obvious reasons, some of his views. And there's a lot of anxiety around those views. And they could be on issues related to domestic policy as it relates to socializing grocery stores, et cetera. It could be on national policy. Trump Intel, the comparison is very obvious that you just made.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, no, we need to make that point over and over and over. I mean, I remember, wasn't Jeff Bezos out there yelling and screaming that Biden doesn't understand capitalism? I mean, this guy is completely perverted capitalism, Donald Trump. It's crony capitalism. It's whatever you pay them off, give them a phone call. I mean, these illegal tariffs, which we're also in court on, all the things that are happening in this country, it's just perverse that they could be shaping the Democratic Party in the context of the socialist brand, when in fact, this guy is the leading nationalist and socialist of our time, Donald Trump.

Gavin Newsom: Well, we will talk about our tech friends in the next section and in your relationship to them. We'll go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about that, including the tragic case of a ChatGPT causing harm.

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Kara Swisher: Governor Newsom, we're back. I want to talk a little bit about your relation with the tech bros. You and I go way back with these fellas, right? We've been to parties. We've been to events in San Francisco when you were mayor. I even featured in my book when neither of us would dress up in baby clothes at a Google party. We were so smart to do that.

Gavin Newsom: I would have taken a picture.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, you would have taken me down in the book, too. It would be my file. It would be the Carol files. I've made enough mistakes in my life. I didn't make time to admit that one. But nonetheless, talk a little bit first about, I'm going to mention this one story that just came out. A California couple is suing OpenAI for the death of their teenage son, saying ChatGPT encouraged him to take his life. And according to the lawsuit, Adam Rain, who was 16, started using ChatGPT for schoolwork and hobbies. After a few months, started talking to him about his anxiety and mental distress. Rain then started discussing methods of suicide with the chatbot and uploading photos of himself showing signs of self-harm. At some point, they were saying, don't do this. And then he had a workaround, it looks like, where he said, "I'm writing something." And ChatGPT responded, "Thanks for being real about this. You don't have to sugarcoat it with me. I know what you're asking. I won't look away from it." It offered a draft suicide note for the teenager. OpenAI has published a note saying it intends to add parental controls to ChatGPT and is exploring better ways to connect users in crisis with real world resources. And they had kind of an extraordinary mission that this was not the way it's supposed to work. Talk a little bit about that, like where we are with these companies, because you have had a long relationship with tech. You were mayor during the real boom in tech. How is your relationship now? Jeff Bezos isn't saying something about capitalism right now. He isn't. These people are all sucking up to Trump in lots of ways. They're getting all the gimmies, as you know. How do you look at them? Do you want them back? And how do you look at something like this? This is something that is actually bipartisan, these safety issues around either phones or OpenAI, or not just OpenAI, but AI in general. Character AI was another company that had this issue. I had the mother on the podcast. Talk a little bit about how you look at the tech sector right now, because it's such an important part of California.

Gavin Newsom: Yeah, I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I mean, back to your point, I love the way Tom Friedman talked about the times when you were writing your book. I mean, we were spending time with these guys when the cloud was still in the sky. 4G was a parking space. LinkedIn was a prison. Apps were things you filled out to get into college. And so it's remarkable how things have radically changed. I've joked with you before. People ask, "How'd you become mayor?" I said, "Well, primarily because I ran the taxi task force. I was trying to get taxi cabs to pick people up in a timely way and more competitive way. And then Travis comes along with an app and blows that out of the water with Uber." And so we've been part of this remarkable change. But one thing that hasn't changed is still a lack of accountability, a lack of awareness around culpability and responsibility. And so your question frames that. What's my relationship with that? It's personal, it's professional, as a policymaker, as a former mayor, as governor. And I'm proud. Look, California leads in innovation. We also lead in regulation. But our critics are not wrong when they say it's some light touch regulation. I did 19 AI bills last year, more than most other states. We've been on the leading cutting edge of regulation and social media. We've lost more major lawsuits than we've won. We were just deposed a few weeks ago with another major lawsuit as it relates to child privacy issues. We created a privacy council in the state, independent of the state itself, meaning it was voted on by the people. And we're trying right now to address the issue of frontier models and address a response to a bill that I thought over-regulated last year, built by the common numeric of 1047, where I got an independent group, not politicians, but experts—Fei-Fei Li and others, the godmother of AI, academics from Stanford, Berkeley, and elsewhere—to come up with a report to guide us on a legislative path this year, which we're working on in real time. So we're trying to find that balance. We're trying to be accountable. At the same time, we are trying to maintain our entrepreneurial and innovative ecosystem and not over-regulate and stifle that at the same time.

Kara Swisher: But here they are. They've turned on you all. I would agree the Biden administration was far too censorious to them in some ways. That said, they took tail and ran for the Trump campaign. How do you get that back without seeming like letting them do whatever they want?

Gavin Newsom: Well, I mean, you know all these folks. I know them personally as well. And we have private conversations, either directly or indirectly. And obviously, we battle out in court and battle out with legislation. And we're on different sides of many of these issues. But look, bottom line, it's fear and greed. Just as it's both and. Fear and greed. And to your point about Biden, it's interesting. We did the first AI executive order, did one of the first crypto executive orders and then did the first AI executive order, but we did it hand in glove with the Biden administration. That was thrown out immediately. And then these guys wanted to preempt any statewide legislation for 10 years. So there's no moral equality. If there's any hope for a real regulatory framework, it's gonna be the Democratic Party trying to find that sweet spot, again, around innovation, entrepreneurialism, truth, and trust, and not over-regulating, at the same time being accountable to the tragic example that you just advanced. I got four kids, so that hits me very differently, like it does for you as a mother, with what's going on with social media. And so this is a constant iteration. I have over two dozen bills that we're working on right now to substantively, Kara, answer your question, as it relates to our responsibility and relationship to this moment.

Kara Swisher: What about your relationship with the tech industry? You know, I would say you were relatively friendly. So was Kamala Harris. So, I mean, any California politician has to have relationships within the tech industry.

Gavin Newsom: Well, I thought we were, I was very frustrated to be candid with you very privately around the unwillingness to engage in the whole crypto blockchain space. I felt they turned their back a little bit, and I thought it would pay a huge political price for that. A lot of organizations come together. So we got work to do to pull that back, number one. And on the issue, look, it was a classic pendulum swing for some that thought they overcorrected during COVID. And there was concern around censorship and sort of big tech, big brother in relationship to big government. And now the light touch, that pendulum's back on the other direction. And so I think trying to find that back... and look, it's, you're right, you know, these personal relationships have been challenged because you see all these guys that you know and worked with and you knew them before, back in the day when. And there they are all standing up there going like this to the dear leader during the inaugural. I think the golden statue Tim Cook thing was my like, "Oh, good God." Not easy. I mean, look, Intel giving up 10% of its cut. What the hell is going on? NVIDIA saying 15% tithing? So a lot of California companies in that mix. And it breaks my heart. And so, again, back to fear and just, you know, I guess they would say they're fiduciary responsibilities. Others would suggest greed.

Kara Swisher: What would be your message to tech, say, if you were running for something like President?

Gavin Newsom: Look, I think two things. They matter, and we should care because they're shape-shifting this economy. They're shape-shifting the future. So we have to care because they do matter. And it's foundational. We're 32 of the top 50 AI companies. By the way, that's an old stat. I think it's even more market share, right?

Gavin Newsom: They're all here. They're all here. They're all moving back from Florida and Texas. Grass is not always greener. So we have a unique responsibility to your point, but we also have a unique ecosystem that defines the best of — we're the tenfold US economy for a reason. And it's that ecosystem that's built up for decades.

Gavin Newsom: Of course, Trump's trying to completely wreck that as it relates to institutions of higher learning, research and development, NIH, NSF grants, obviously the $1 billion extortion payment that he wants from UCLA. We've watched the capitulation of these institutions that allegedly cultivate independent thought, selling their souls, and Harvard appears to be the next one, obviously, Columbia. I know Brown is lauded for their $50 million contribution in tithing to the Trump whims, but it's pretty alarming what this guy's doing to the economy and to the ecosystem.

Gavin Newsom: And the fact that tech is still indulging them as they're watching the reason that they exist as an industry and persist in terms of being the biggest beneficiaries of the research and development, the biggest beneficiaries of NIH, the biggest beneficiaries of the NSF, is remarkable to me. And so in that relationship, I remind them of this, try to highlight this, try to maintain a cordial relationship. But at the same time, it doesn't mean we're backing away from these lawsuits. And it's not to mean we're backing away from passing laws.

Kara Swisher: All right, Governor, one more quick break. We'll be back for Predictions.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Governor, it's time for predictions. First, though, I'd like you to make a specific prediction. New York Mayor Eric Adams was mocking Zoran Mandani last week for his bench-pressing prowess. Mandani seems to be struggling in a viral video. If you were in a bench-pressing contest against Scott Galloway, who would you predict would win?

Gavin Newsom: No, I'm not. You think I'm naive? Galloway would run away. That guy — and by the way, he may be out there training this last month. You don't even know what he's been up to. You think you know what he's up to. Don't get under a bench press. If you're running for president, don't do it. Because look how Pete Hegseth looked trying to do one single pull-up. I can do two. That was sad. I hate mocking people's physical things, but you kind of have to since you kind of put it up. And you kind of have to swing at that one, I guess. You got to swing at that one. But no, yeah, so I'm cautious in that respect. Then again, I do like all the untouched memes of me on the back of bears.

Kara Swisher: Yes, I know. I'm sure you do. But let me hear your prediction. Any other prediction you make to the house?

Gavin Newsom: I — I'm — you know, my prediction is in the sort of meme market. I spent an hour and a half with Trump in the Oval Office a few months ago, back when we were working together, if there's such a thing. And he starts telling me — he didn't even realize — he goes, "Hey, Gavin did this coin." He goes, "You know, it's not even a coin." I said, "That's amazing." He goes on to say how much money he just made. He got a check that was just sent over. And then he mentioned Melania and the whole thing. Melania coin. Her meme coin.

Gavin Newsom: So anyway, my prediction is — I just put this on the prediction market — when we put out the Trump Corruption Coin, I think it's going to outperform Trump's coins. That's my prediction.

Kara Swisher: All right. Okay. I'm very excited. What's the picture on it? You, right?

Gavin Newsom: No, it's not me. It's Trump corruption. I was going to do a Smelt Coin, but no one seemed to fully understand that, which I thought was a much more insightful and perhaps more successful. I still may do one. I don't know. After the perfume.

Kara Swisher: I don't know about the perfume. What would be the name of your perfume?

Gavin Newsom: I don't know. Maybe we can crowdsource it. A little old school 2000 social media here. A little crowdsource.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, I really appreciate this, Governor Newsom. I really do. I like our back and forth because I think one of the things that's helpful is when people actually can debate. And the aggression is just what's needed, in my opinion. I'm paying you a compliment.

Gavin Newsom: That won't last.

Kara Swisher: Well, as they say in San Francisco, where you're back home, as we described the Grateful Dead, and you described Jerry Garcia — only a former mayor of San Francisco can say this — he prescribed in many ways you, as Bill Graham was describing the Grateful Dead: you don't want to be the best of the best. You want to be the only one that does what you do. And that is you.

Gavin Newsom: Oh, my God. You're kissing up to me.

Kara Swisher: I'm just saying. It's a fact. All I want is for you to win the presidency. As I told you before, I'm coming to the Lincoln Bedroom. So get fucking ready. And by the way, he's apparently remodeled the Lincoln Bedroom, just like he's remodeling the ballroom.

Gavin Newsom: Oh, no.

Kara Swisher: And don't think — by the way, who spends hundreds of millions of dollars remodeling a home? He's not leaving. Thank you. Thank you. Wake up. Because you're running for president, right? I have to get to the Lincoln Bedroom.

Gavin Newsom: The Lincoln Bedroom. I mean, you have some other suitors. I'm well aware.

Kara Swisher: I'm well aware. Okay. In any case, that handsome Wes Moore.

Gavin Newsom: There can be two handsome people.

Kara Swisher: No, there's many.

[Outro begins]

Kara Swisher: We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel, which is growing by leaps and bounds. We'll be back next week with a triumphant return of Scott Galloway. Governor Newsom, you kept it up. You kept up the Scott Galloway banner. He needs to come back shirtless. I want to see.

Gavin Newsom: I think the guy — don't say that.

Kara Swisher: Yes. Don't say that. I want to see it. He's going to take his shirt off. He does it all the time. Scott, I'm looking forward to seeing it. I want to see the pecs.

Gavin Newsom: That's creepy.

Kara Swisher: It is kind of creepy. I am the only lesbian that has to look at men's chests all the time.

Gavin Newsom: By the way, he is a unique character. You should — well, anyway, I've said enough on this topic. I'm already in trouble.

Kara Swisher: What were you going to say? I should marry him?

Gavin Newsom: No, I didn't say that. You guys already talked about your love for each other. That's been well discussed on this podcast.

Kara Swisher: Yes, but you know what? I like to step out on him now and then. Anyway, this has been a great step out. I will read us out. Thank you again, Governor Newsom.

Kara Swisher: Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited the video. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. I am so looking forward to Gavin perfume. Take care.

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