#1422 - Lex Fridman

Here we go. Three, two, one. Lex, handsome as ever. Thank you. Well dressed. Always feel like a slob when I'm around you. Do you dress like that in real life or only when you do podcasts? Yeah, so I have two outfits. This and black shirt and jeans. Slick outfit. There's nothing more classic than a dark suit with a white shirt and a black tie. Is that a black tie or is that a dark blue? Black tie. Black tie. Black suit, black tie. It's armor. Yes. Makes me feel like focus is in the mind. Like a professional. Yeah, like I'm taking this seriously. Yes, yes, yes. Like you're fucking for real, man. You got notes and shit? Yeah, I got notes and shit. But given the suit, like I like to get like dirty. Like I like to work in a car or whatever. Like I don't want to, like I'd love to get in a fight in this. This isn't like me trying to protect myself from the messiness of the real world. Oh, I understand. This is a farmer. It just looks good. It just makes you feel like a professional. I feel good. I don't know if it looks good. Is it flexible? Like, you know, they make clothes that are flex. Yeah. You can move in it? I can move in it. Oh, that's nice. And I can, I mean, you showed me how you can choke me last time with the tie. Did you get a breakaway tie? No, I didn't. But, you know, I kind of let you have that one because I think I can defend it pretty well. Well, you're probably very good at defending chokes. Yeah. No, no, no. With the tie. I don't have a system yet. I'll have to talk to John Donahue to develop a tie. All you have to do, man, is just take the back of the tie, cut it, put a little piece of Velcro on each end. You got the same tie. But I think you going under the tie to try to start the choke, actually, I mean, you're making yourself vulnerable, like maybe to an armbar or something like that. Don't be silly. Don't be silly. Listen, if someone grabs a hold of your collar, that's the same thing. Like Ezekiel chokes are deadly. Yeah, but it's not over. Yeah, if you sink it in, it's over. But it's so – collars are a real problem, right, in jiu-jitsu. Yeah. They're a real problem. If someone gets deep on your collar – Like even on this with a suit, right? If someone starts doing this, man, you're fucked. Not good. Not good. Collars are not good. If you go deep – if you get in deep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the problem with that is it's a handle. It's worse than a collar Because I get underneath that knot And I grab a hold of that pitch And then it all just twisting Yeah but it You have to you right i would have to get it i have to get it and you also kind of have to hold on to this part because it can loosen naturally unless you're really good at like because it loosens does it yeah it loosens naturally there's a system to this i think you haven't thought through this you don't think i have dude i'm trying to choke people with ties on as friends yeah i'm like let me grab a hold that tie real quick i'm like what happens if i do this yeah no no not jujitsu people and also it's probably a joke yeah i was fighting for my life i think it'd be different but sure you're a tough guy you are actually trained martial artists i mean i'm not saying it would be easy to grab your tie and choke you to death what i'm saying is it's one more area of vulnerability that doesn't need to exist but see i'm disagreeing with you and saying like if i was gonna fight to the death i would wear the suit okay because i would look good let me tell you something about CIA agents and Secret Service guys, they wear breakaway ties. That's because they're not good martial artists. Oh, that's not true. A lot of those guys are savages. Are they? Fuck yeah, man. You mean like blue belts or purple belts? No, black belts, man. If you're a fucking... If you're a Secret Service guy and you're supposed to be protecting the president, I guarantee you, a bunch of those guys are savages. I think they're smart enough to use guns. That too? Yeah. But they don't... If they have to wear a tie, a lot of people like to wear breakaway ties. Is that a fact? Mm-hmm. I might be making this up right now. I think that's a bro fact. No, I know, but it's a little bro fact, but only like 10%. I think, let's Google breakaway ties for self-defense. Because, dude, look, I'm definitely a dummy, right? Okay, I think about this stuff too much. But when I was driving limos, I always felt super vulnerable when I had to wear that tie. This episode is brought to you by Visible. I want to let you in on something. Your current wireless carrier does not want you to know about Visible because Visible is the ultimate wireless hack. No confusing plans with surprise fees. No nonsense. Just fast speeds, great coverage without the premium cost. With Visible, you get one line wireless with unlimited data powered by Verizon's network for $25 a month, taxes and fees included. Seriously, $25 a month flat. What you see is what you pay No hidden fees on top of that Ready to see Join now and unlock unlimited data for just a month on the Visible plan Don think wireless can be so transparent so Visible Well now you know Switch today at visible slash rogan Terms apply See visible for plan features and network management details. This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. I think we can all agree that eating highly processed food for every meal isn't optimal. So why is processed food the status quo for dog food? Because that's what kibble is, an ultra processed food. but a healthy alternative exists the farmer's dog they make fresh food for dogs and what does it look like real meat and vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients and help avoid any of the bad stuff that comes with ultra processing and it's not just random ingredients thrown together their food is formulated by on-staff board certified vet nutritionists these people are experts on dog nutrition and they're all in on fresh food the farmer's dog also does something unique. They portion out the food to your dog's nutritional needs. This ensures that you don't overfeed them, making weight management easy. Research shows that dogs kept at a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer. Head to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan to get 50% off your first box, plus free shipping. This offer is for new customers only. It looks good, though. One of my, actually my first album, My first real album that I ever did for Warner Brothers was in 1999, and I wore exactly that outfit. I wore a black suit with a white shirt and a black tie, and it looked dope. It's called I'm Going to Be Dead Someday. Look at that. Breakaway tie. Like a stand-up? Look at that. Breakaway tie, son. Low pro. Breakaway tie. Woo! That's what I'm wearing. Let me explain you something. Come get some. Most people, when they're vulnerable, like say I'm afraid I'm going to be picked on by bullies, I learned a martial art how to defend myself. Yes. You, when you felt vulnerable wearing a tie, decided not to wear a tie as opposed to learn how to defend yourself while wearing a tie. There must be a system. I guarantee you there's a... Sure, you could say that. You could defend yourself if you had a dog collar around your neck too, but I wouldn't recommend it. I wouldn't recommend it. I took my dog out once. I had a pit bull and he bit my cat. He grabbed a hold of my cat. It's a terrible story. I had a crazy dog. One of my dogs was a dog that I had gotten. I was young and irresponsible in my 20s and I had gotten this dog that was bred from a pig hunting dog in Hawaii Wow And those dogs are hyper animal aggressive They're great with people. He was great with people. He loved people. But everything that moved, he was like locked in on. He would spend his days in my yard chasing lizards. His thing was to jump up on the wall of the house and try to snatch lizards. It was like a video game for him. And my friend Eddie was terrified of this dog. Eddie Bravo? Yeah. and so Eddie would come over the house and Frank would just decide that he runs shit when Eddie's around because Eddie was so scared of him he'd be like hmm I think I'm gonna kill this cat so he just just tried to kill my cat and I got a hold of him in time and I got my hand into his collar and I choked him unconscious head like that yeah I just dug behind yeah from behind I just dug my hand under his collar and I twisted and I put him to sleep he went right out it's crazy yeah it works works on dogs yeah maybe from the I wasn't thinking from the back I was thinking from the front, but from the back. Anywhere you can grab a dog collar, if you get your hand in there, if you're strong enough and you have good technique, you know how to go knee on belly, and then you twist it. You can put a dog to sleep. Wow, you're changing my mind. See? Yeah, but I don't know. I mean, look, obviously you're going to be aware of that and you're going to defend, but it's an area of vulnerability. Pull up 1990 and pull up I'm going to be dead someday, the cover of that, because I'm literally dressed exactly like you. On the cover or when actually doing the show? No, I never wore it doing the show. I think I just wore it for the cover. Almost ironically. No, I kind of like the way it looked. You know, there it is. Bam. It's hard to tell there because that one's orange and the other one's hot pink. But it's like the shirt collar's a little more open, like you don't give a damn. Well, that was a long day, and it was a long photo shoot, when we were drinking. Yeah, yeah. That's what it looks like. It was a lot of chaos involved. That's legit. There's legit. There was a lot of stuff going on there. But it was just, I like that look. It's a good look. By the way, congratulations on the 10 years. Oh, thank you very much. I don't think you've celebrated, all I see is on Jamie's Instagram, like a naked picture of Bert. The 10 year picture? Yeah, we probably should do something. It was December was officially 10 years. It was December was officially 10 years. So it was two months ago. Probably should have some sort of a party or something. I know you don't like to talk about it, think about it, but you've inspired millions. So thank you for that. It's a very nice side effect. But it's a weird gig, man. And it's a gig that became what it is, slowly without me understanding what was happening, why it was happening, which makes it weirder and weirder. and with it has come increasingly stronger levels of responsibility to where now I have to actually vet guests and think about what they're saying. Whereas before I would have someone on if they're crazy. I was like, let that crazy motherfucker on. Let's hear what he has to say. And people would say a lot of crazy shit and then they would say, oh, you know, you didn't push back or you had this person on and they said something irresponsible and I had no idea what they were going to say. There's a lot of people that have said some pretty outrageous things that I had no idea they were going to say. Yeah, I saw the, like, I started, one of the things you inspired me to do is to start a podcast on artificial intelligence. And I have Jack Dorsey as a guest coming up. Uh-huh. And that's a good example of somebody you got, like, an insane amount of pushback on. Yes, because they were mad that I didn't talk to him about censorship. My take on it was, it was certainly irresponsible on my part, the first podcast, because my take on it was I just want to see what it's like to be a guy that starts this thing and it becomes probably one of the most important conversation tools the world's ever known. And also along the way becomes, you know, it becomes something weird. Like right now it's weird. Like Twitter now is just 50% hot dumpster fire. You know, it's so much. It's so amazing, inspiring stuff. You can always find the dumpster fire in all kinds of conversations. Yes. The confusing thing to me about your conversation with Jack, which I didn't look at the internet before I listened to it, and I really enjoyed it. It was interesting. I learned a lot from your first conversation with Jack. And then I looked at the internet that told me I'm supposed to hate that conversation. And what I'm confused about is why. Why is there such hatred thrown towards... I also talked to the head of YouTube, the head of the YouTube algorithm Search and Discovery A lot of hate towards YouTube A lot of hate towards Twitter a lot towards Facebook And deservedly so there some challenges and so on But they doing like an incredible service And the algorithm they're trying to develop and control is really hard to develop and control. Yes, for sure. So the pushback that people get, it's almost like they're taking specific anecdotal pieces of evidence. Or look, this person said this, and it's not that problematic in our eyes, but they somehow got censored from the platform, removed from the platform. And they don't look at the bigger picture of how challenging the entirety of it is and how incredible, first of all, how incredible the platform is to have a conversation, like a global conversation like this, and how hard it is to do to achieve the goal of having, it sounds like cheesy, but having like a healthy conversation, a healthy discourse. because you want an algorithm and a platform that removes the assholes from the scene because it's a really difficult challenge because you want this one person who's really loud, who's screaming in the room, like comes to the party. You have a cool party, a bunch of cool people, some communists, some right-wingers, whatever. It doesn't matter. They can all disagree, but they're not assholes. They're there to have an interesting debate, conversation, and so on. And then there's somebody that comes with like a – and just starts screaming like one like slogan or something like that or is trying – is trolling, is completely sort of non-genuine in their way of communication. They're destroying the nature of the conversation. And then, of course, that person, if they get – the bodyguards come in and say, can you please leave the party, sir? Then they get extremely – that's exactly the kind of personality that's extremely upset. And sometimes they almost look for that. So what are you supposed to do as a Jack Dorsey, as a leader of that kind of platform? It's a very good question, and I really think that there's no real answer. It's one of the reasons why it's so frustrating. You know, if you just let people say whatever they want whenever they want to, there's going to be a lot of people that get turned off to that kind of a platform because you're going to have a lot of people yelling out racial slurs, ethnic slurs, gender slurs, homophobic slurs. There's gonna be a bunch of people that are trolling. There's gonna be a bunch of people that just say things to rile people up and that all they do There gonna be a bunch of people that just wanna shit they want to dox people So then you have to set parameters Like what are the parameters You can dox people You can't say racial slurs. Don't say ethnic slurs. You're managing at scale and you're managing an insane amount of people. But then there's legitimate criticism that they lean towards progressive people and liberal people and they they have woke politics like for instance you can get banned from twitter for life if you dead name someone so lex if you became um a female and you change your name to ally and i just said fuck you man you're lex banned for life that's what a dead naming that's dead naming like if you wanted to call caitlyn jenner if you want to call caitlyn jenner bruce on Twitter, you would get dead named or you would be dead naming her and you would get banned for life. A woman named Megan Murphy, who is a TERF. Do you know what a TERF is? What do you think? I don't know what a TERF is. I'm sure you don't. You're two balls deep in science. Yeah. TERF is trans exclusionary radical feminists. So trans exclusionary. Why do I have such a hard time with that word? Exclusionary, right? Exclusionary. Why does it sound wrong? Exclusionary sounds wrong. So what does it mean to be exclusionary to trans? They she did. OK. Turfs do not want trans people to be to have a say in women's issues. I see. They think that they are a different thing, that there's women and women's issues. And these feminists that have been female their whole life dealing with women's issues do not want trans people coming in. And in many cases, what you find is that trans people come in and then the conversation changes and it becomes about trans issues and they want these conversations to be about women's issues in feminist movements. It's complicated, right? She got banned from Twitter for life for saying a man is never a woman. They made her take the tweet down. So she took a screenshot of it, took it down and then put the screenshot back up and then they banned it for life. Should she get banned? No. No, she shouldn't because biologically she's correct. If there's an argument there, if there's an argument, a scientific argument, a man is never a woman. But can a man identify as a woman and should you respect her then and treat them as a woman Yes So the is whether i mean i i not too deep into thinking about these specific issues but the question is whether you should get banned for being an asshole you should get banned for being uh for lying because i think lying is okay whatever there's a lot of people lie on twitter lie and sort of or insult you can insult people on twitter as long as you're not specific about their gender see that the insult thing that's where it gets it's the party thing like if you have the the asshole douchebag whatever term you want to use they show up to the party and then if a person shows up to the party and a lot of people leave because they're annoying or whatever yes that should be like we should do something to discourage that behavior that's a good point however let's let's paint a different picture of a party let's have a party where everyone says my pronouns are they them and zeezer and and then you come in, you go, come on, bro, you're a guy. And like, no, no, no, I'm a they, you fucking cisgendered, heteronormative piece of shit. And then they want to kick you out of the party. All you're saying is you're a guy. Ban both of them. No, wait. Ban the person who's not open-minded or respectful for the, you know. Don't ban people. Here's the, here's the. No, no, no, not the. Yeah, so of course it's been well documented by people now. The reason we probably have the current president is that the people on the left are very also rude and disrespectful. It's a small percentage of the people on the left. It's very small. This is part of the real issue. They're all on Twitter. They are all on Twitter. But it's also the small percentage when you – it's so hard to have a group and call that group the left. because the variables are so extreme. There's so many different people that follow politics or that espouse to certain belief systems that recognize themselves as left. Funny enough, you're probably on the left. Yes, I'm very much on the left, yeah. But I don't get considered to be on the left because I'm a cage-fighting commentator. You have an American flag behind you. Yeah, I'm very bro-ish. I hunt, I bow hunt, which is even more bro-ish. And I am unabashedly masculine. I'm a man. And a comedian. Yes, and I'm a dirty comedian. And I make fun of everything, including sacred cows, like gender, homosexuality, heterosexuality, I'm a man. I'm a man. And a comedian. Yes, and I'm a dirty comedian. And I make fun of everything, including sacred cows, like gender, homosexuality, heterosexuality, my own kids, my wife, my mom, everybody. I make fun of everybody. And if you take that stuff out of context and just publish a bunch of it, it makes you look like a moron or it makes you look like an asshole. That's, you know, what is the left, right? What is the left? In my mind, the left, when I was a child, I always thought of the left because I grew up, my parents were hippies. My stepdad was an architect, and before that he was a computer programmer. He had long hair until I was, I think I was 20 years old when he cut his hair. I mean long, like down to his ass, like a Native American. Nice. And he smoked pot when I was little. I mean, I was always around hippies. I lived in San Francisco from the time I was seven till I was 11. And I was always, and my family was very left wing. They were always pro-gay marriage. They were pro-gay rights, pro-racial equality, pro, just name it, man. Pro-welfare, pro, you know, just the idea was open-mindedness, education. All these things are good, and war was bad, and there's a lot of things that maybe they had very strong beliefs on that maybe they weren't entirely nuanced on as well. You find that about people on the left as much as you find that about people on the right. But it's the radicals on both sides. There's nothing wrong with being conservative, right? There's nothing wrong with valuing hard work. There's nothing wrong with someone who values fiscal frugality or someone who is, you know, you have a conservative view on economics or on social policies, you know, and you want less government. There's nothing wrong with those things either. That's when you get extreme. Yeah. The guest was an amazing guest you had recently that converted a bunch of folks from the KKK. Daryl Davis. Yeah. Wow. This is him right here. This is his CD. He's amazing. He's an incredible human, man. But that kind of thinking I wish you saw more of that in politics Sort of like not even if you on the left to talk to people on the right Right Instead of just shut them out Shut them out That the problem with this idea of kicking people out of the party You kick people out of the party, guys like Daryl Davis never get to convert them. There's been people from Twitter that have been converted. You know, Megan Phelps is a famous one. She was a part of the Westboro Baptist Church. Her grandfather was Fred Phelps, that fucking famous crazy asshole who was like super rude, like who, you know, would make them take those signs that say God hates fags and literally go to soldiers' funerals and say that soldiers died because God is angry that people are homosexual. So Megan was completely entrenched in this toxic ideology. And Twitter allowed her to escape that ideology. She met her husband on Twitter from arguing back and forth. And now she's out. And now if you talk to her, you would never believe it. And man, and not that long ago either. Not that long ago. She was in that church like six years ago. It's kind of incredible that you can sort of outgrow that mindset. So no matter, I mean, that's inspiring that you can hold a mindset of hatred and outgrow it, escape it. Well, she was indoctrinated into it from the time she was a child. And, you know, for her, it was the only life she knew, right? Her family is in that. And for her, she just, I mean, by whatever, for whatever grace of the grand universe plan, she had enough open-mindedness to take into consideration some of these other things that people were saying. We have a problem today with cancel culture. It's a real problem is that you just want to write people off. Well, those people still exist. It's basically a cultural form of euthanasia. You just want to go out and whack everyone who doesn't agree with you. But if you do that, whether it's eugenics or whatever you want to call it, you just eliminate everyone who's not the way that you like. Culturally eliminate them. Take them out of the conversation. They still exist. They still exist. So what happens then? Well, then they're angry. They're angry. They're left out of the conversation. And they don't grow. And you've written them off as a human being. You said that they're 100% bad. Now, if you had a spectrum of people in this world, 100% bad and 100% good, I mean, there are some beautiful people that really are 100% good. Like my friend Justin Wren who runs Fight for the Forgotten Charity he about as close to 100 good as you can get I mean this beautiful person goes to the Congo and makes wells for the pygmies and gets malaria and now he has a great he got some crazy parasite now that they don even know what it is they can't recognize it he's been suffering for eight months now i think that's about as good as you can get right and then there's people you know you could well it's a gray area when you start to drift away from the the like i have the same thing in my like that's the focus i have in the academic setting of science. And that's the inspiration of your podcast that you gave me is to talk outside the people that are sort of conventionally accepted by the scientific community, like a little bit on the fringes, on the quote unquote fringes. So you have the same thing in machine learning and artificial intelligence. There's people that are working on specific, it's called deep learning, these learning methodologies that are accepted. You know, there's conferences and we all kind of accept the problems we're working on. And there's people a little bit on the fringes. There's people in neuroscience. Actually, anybody thinking about working on what's called artificial general intelligence is already on the fringes. If you even raise the question, okay, so how do we build human-level intelligence, that's a little bit of a taboo subject. The consciousness is called the C word for a while, consciousness. Really? Well, it's scientists. I know. I understand. Yeah. But explain it to me. What's the aversion? What is everyone worried about? Well, no, it's what are they worried about? It's this culture of rolling your eyes the same way you might roll your eyes if somebody tells you the earth is flat. They sort of put all other things in that category as well. It's like, well, okay, whatever. So in the case of consciousness, we really don't understand very much at all what consciousness is, What the subjective experience, the fact that it feels like something to take in the world, that it's not just raw sensory information being processed. It actually feels like to touch something, to taste something, to see something. It's like incredible. David Chalmers calls it the hard problem of consciousness. Why do we feel it? Okay. But we don't have scientific, physics, engineering methods of studying consciousness. So it immediately gets put into this bin that it's not an okay thing, like you're a little bit crazy, off the reservation. I think somebody was- Darryl was saying that that a slur I never even thought of that I didn think of what that meant Yeah so they already put in this bin of you not a legitimate researcher And the same kind of you know and I think we now in a culture which is great You know, Eric Weinstein is good at this. I'm hoping to be good at this. You're good at this. And allowing those people on the fringes in and saying, what are your ideas? Exploring those. Yeah. Of course, you have a greater and greater platform to where there is a line. You don't want too far in the fringes. Yeah, that's something I'm aware of now that I wasn't aware of, say, like three or four years ago. And I used to have a lot of those. I've had some people on that I would never have on again. And then I've had some people on that I've been criticized for having them on. I'm like, okay, I see why you are upset. But I think there's value in having conversations with people that are on the fringes. There's people that are bad faith actors, right? They act in bad faith. Those are the ones you have to be careful of. And sometimes you don't know who they are until you get to know them. And then you've already kind of opened the door. Like for some people, for like the Democratic, the legitimate seven-year-old plus Democratic Party, Tulsi Gabbard is on the fringe. Yeah. Right. But I think you having her on is great. It's exploring, you know, she's one of the young minds exploring sort of the role of the United States, the foreign policy in the world, militarily, in terms of trade and so on. So she's an excellent mind who I don't think is on the fringe. I don't think she's on the fringe either. Bernie Sanders, for many people, still is on the fringe. Yeah. I think he gets misrepresented, though. Yeah, for sure. One of the things that was tremendously beneficial for me is to sit down with him for hours and have a conversation. And you go, oh, you're a real person. You're not this wacky guy yelling about billionaires. when you get these 90 second sound bites and these debates you don't get a chance to know who someone is yeah so I used to listen to this I listen to a lot of radio on the left and the right to try to take in what people are thinking about I used to listen to this program I think it's called the Tom Hartman program he's like a major lefty but he had this segment called Brunch with Bernie and he would invite Bernie Sanders like every Friday or something like that and just sort of the intellectual honesty and curiosity that Bernie exhibited was just fascinating sort of like as opposed to curiosity that Bernie exhibited was just fascinating. sort of the intellectual honesty and curiosity that Bernie exhibited was just fascinating. Sort of like, as opposed to being a political thing that just repeats the same message over and over, which actually what it kind of sounds like when you listen to him now publicly, he's actually a thinking individual and somebody who's open and changing his mind. But within that has just completely been consistent. What people are terrified of is that he's going to raise taxes on successful people and ruin business. That's what people are worried about, that in doing that, it will crash the economy. I don't know if they're right. I don't even know if they're – so first of all, the people are using the word socialist. So they're saying he's a socialist. Do you really want socialism? America is a great country because we're a capitalist kind of thing. from my perspective i think we already have a huge number of socialists well he's a democratic socialist democratic it's a different perspective he just values workers the idea is he wants people to earn a living wage he wants people to not be indebted with a tremendous amount of student loan debt when you're just 21 years old and getting out of college he thinks it's insane and i agree with them. He doesn't want people to be burdened in this insane way if you ever get sick. And I agree with him. He wants to improve the healthcare system. I think as a community, if we're looking at the United States as a community, one of the things that, you know, look, it's great to support business. It's great to have a strong economy. It's great to give business the confidence to take chances. And a lot of people think Donald Trump does that. It's also great to take care of our own. And I don't think we do that enough. I don't think we take care of our own enough in terms of, we have the same problems in the same inner cities that we've had for decade after decade after decade. And there's no significant attempt to change that. But meanwhile, we do these nation building projects in other countries. And we have the interventionist foreign policy where we go in and invade these countries and try to prop up new governments and try to support them. and we spend insane amounts of money doing that. And along the while, we don't do anything to our inner cities that are the exact same fucked up places that they were in the 70s and in the 60s. Do you know who Michael Wood Jr. is? No. He was on the podcast a couple of times and he used to be a police officer in Baltimore Yes I know him Okay so I listen to that podcast I just horrible with names Okay His experience was first of all just he found a piece of paper that showed like a crime docket from the 1970s all the stuff like drugs crime robbery It was all the same issues in the same neighborhoods that he was patrolling in today. And he was like, holy shit. and he realized like oh this is a quagmire and then he found out about the laws that were in place from way back in the day where you literally if you were an african-american you couldn't buy a home in certain areas they had what is that term is it redlined is that what the term is where they um they designate certain areas where they literally won't sell homes to black people and he was becoming aware of this shit as he was a cop and you know in the beginning he was all gung-ho he's like i'm a cop you know i'm here to bust bad guys and and do the right thing and then along the way he kind of recognized you're dealing with systemic racism red line yeah so yeah so that hasn't been addressed it's all about i mean there's a million other things at home education everything and all those things i think bernie sanders when he talks about those things He seems like a guy who really cares about education, health care, and people that live in poverty. Yeah. I don't know if he's going to be able to do anything. I don't know. That's the main thing is like people say Democratic Socialists and so on is going to make a slight move into whatever direction he's trying to advocate, which in this case is more investment into the infrastructure and so on into our at home. But like, you know, he's just one human being. There has to be a Congress that represents the people. And if there's anything, I think Congress is probably the most hated entity in all of the universe. Like you look at all the polls of what people like and hate, like rats are above in terms of favorability ratings. So Congress is really the broken system. Bernie won't be able to do much except take a little sort of the role of the president as I see it is to, one, the terrifying one is to start wars. and so it's a very serious responsibility you have to take. And the second is to inspire the population. In terms of executive power of enacting laws there not much power All you can do is what our current president is doing sort of inspiring in that case the Republicans in Congress to sort of work together to work on certain legislation. So you can inspire the Congress and you can inspire the people, but you don't have actual direct power. So Bernie is not going to turn America into a socialist haven, he's going to take a small step into maybe he's probably focusing on one aspect, like healthcare or something like that, like President Obama did, and try to make a little change. And so in that sense, people that are genuine and have ideas, like Andrew Yang is another one. He has a ridiculous number of ideas. I don't know if you've seen his website. He thinks all cops should be purple belts in jujitsu. Yeah, I like it. I'm like, go, Andrew. That's great. Fuck yeah. He has a million other ideas like this. He does. Well, he's a genius. I mean, he's a brilliant guy. Yeah. And he's an entrepreneur. So he comes at this stuff from a different angle. Yeah. And he's open-minded. Yes. Well, I disagree with him on his evaluation of the state of artificial intelligence and automation in terms of its capabilities and having an impact on the economy. You don't think it's going to be as much of a deal as he thinks it is? On the time scale that he thinks it is. But I also want to be careful sort of commenting on that because I think for him, it's a tool to describe the concerns, the suffering that people go through in terms of losing their jobs, like the pain that people are feeling throughout the country. It's like a mechanism he uses to talk to people about the future and that there are people that are well off, like the different tech companies that should also contribute to investing in our community. I mean the specifics, I want to kind of sit back and relax a little bit. It's like when you watch a sci-fi movie and the details are all really bad. I want to just suspension of disbelief or whatever and just enjoy the movie. In the same way, the stuff he says about AI, he's not very knowledgeable about AI and automation. So it touches me a little bit the wrong way. We're not as far along. The transformative effects of artificial intelligence in terms of replacing humans in trucking, autonomous vehicles, something I know a couple of things about is not going to be as I can speak relatively confidently the revolution in autonomous vehicles will be more gradual than Andrew is describing But that okay He has a million other ideas. And UBI, nevertheless, the universal basic income or some kind of support structure of that kind, nevertheless could be a very good idea for people that lose their job, for people to be mobile in terms of going from one type of job to another type of job, so continually learning throughout their life. It's just that artificial intelligence in this case I don't think will be the enemy. There could be other things that are a little bit sort of neighbors of artificial intelligence, which is sort of the software world eating up some of the mechanization of factors and so on. And, you know, maybe the fact that, you know, the kind of way that Tesla and Elon Musk are approaching the design and engineering of vehicles that are a little bit more software-centric will change, will sort of move some of the job from Detroit, Michigan, in terms of cars, to the Silicon Valley. not necessarily location-wise, but sort of a different type of person would need to be hired to work on cars, a little bit more software, engineering, software-centric, versus the sort of hardcore mechanical engineers, more sort of, you know, traditionally called car guys or car gals, right? Yeah, so there will be some job replacement and so on, but it's not this artificial intelligence, trucks will completely replace your job. And in the case of trucks, there's a lot of complicated aspects about the impact of automation. Sort of trucking jobs, there's actually a lot of need for jobs. Like there's not the truck, that job, there's already people leaving that job sector. It's a really difficult job. It doesn't pay as well as it should. It's really difficult to train people and so on. So the impact that he talks about in terms of AI is a little bit exaggerated. Like I said, a million really good ideas. He's open-minded. So in terms of, I think, the nice role of a president is to have ideas, like the purple belt one, to inspire people and inspire Congress to implement some of those ideas and be open-minded and not take yourself seriously enough to think that you know all the right answers. Andrew Yang, Bernie is like that although Bernie is like 78 years old yourself seriously enough to think that you know all the right answers andrew yang yourself seriously enough to think that you know all the right answers andrew yang bernie is like that although bernie's like 78 years old so so he's getting up there yeah look at president tulsi when he kicks the bucket you know what i didn't really well yeah that's so i think hillary clinton endorsed bernie and tulsi gabbard for president reverse endorsement accidentally yeah well yeah it's just such a petty thing to say that no one likes bernie like come on lady this is you're in the twilight of your life i think she's uh really aware of the fact that if she says something like that people are gonna like bernie more i think it's an endorsement and now a message from mcafee i'm not a real kid and i'm not a real grandpa we're deep fakes. And we're making it harder to tell what's real online. The good news? McAfee can help. McAfee's scam detector automatically identifies text and email scams and even deep fakes. So if you whippersnappers meet one of us, you'll know. If they're faking it, they're not making it past us. Get award-winning scam detection today. McAfee.com slash keep it real. I don't think she has any idea of that. I think she's super insulated. I think she thinks that she can actually hamstring him by saying something like that. And she doesn't understand that it just makes people realize that the things that they say about her are correct. Yeah. I don't think you gave her enough credit. Really? You gave her credit for killing Epstein. I was joking. I don't think she did it. I think Bill did it. I'm joking too. Somebody did it. I don't know who it was. Maybe some scientist character. Maybe he's still alive. Could be. that's what Eddie Bravo thinks. Eddie Bravo thinks he's in like Dominican Republic somewhere eating bananas and drinking Mai Tais. It's a conspiracy on the conspiracy. Yeah. Well, Eddie's always like that. He's many levels deep. He plays 4D chess when it comes to conspiracies. Do you think that Andrew Yang is off, but ultimately will be correct in terms of the automation timeline? Do you think that maybe he doesn't know clearly as much as you know about automation and artificial intelligence. But do you think that it's possible that, you know, I think he's looking at a timeline. I think he was thinking within the next 10 years, millions and millions of jobs are going to be replaced Do you think that it more like 20 years or 30 years but still something to be concerned So the timeline of course nobody knows but I think the timeline is much the time scale is more stretched out So 20 30 years and it will continue There will be certain key revolutions, and those revolutions – it's an incorrect word to use, but they'll be stretched out over time. I think the autonomous vehicle revolution is something to achieve a scale of millions of vehicles that are fully autonomously navigating our streets, I think is 20, 30 years away. And it won't be like all of a sudden. It'll be gradual. It'll be people like the former Google self-driving car, Waymo company, who's doing a lot of testing now. Incredible engineer. I visited them for a day. It'll be expanding their efforts slowly. They're doing also way more trucks, autonomous trucking. They're already deploying them in Texas, I think. And then, of course, Tesla, who's this year going to approach a million vehicles, and they're trying to achieve full self-driving capability. But that's going to be gradual. I just got a new update for the Tesla. Uh-oh. Some new self-driving update. It costs $4,000. And I was like, what is it? But I think I was high. And I was looking at my phone, and I was like, hmm, okay, let's do it. Let's do it. And so I got this update, but I'm like, what did I just pay for? And I don't even know if I'm going to use it. But I think it can change. I think it does everything. I think it changes lanes. Yeah. Well, okay. So I'm not exactly sure what the update is, but it's probably the- See if you can find out, Jamie. So it's probably the quote unquote full self-driving. Yeah. Very important. The safety person, I guess, on this podcast. Tesla cannot drive itself fully autonomously. You have to keep your eyes on the road. Always pay attention. There was a guy sleeping on the internet and he was fine. Yeah, well. In a car. Out cold. I'll look into it. Was it on CNN? No, it was someone filmed the guy. He was in his car, passed out. Not just one. There's been a few examples of that. People commuting on their way to work, out cold. So some are for fun and fake, but it's certainly a real thing that you pass out and sleep. We do that with manual driven cars too. I enjoy driving home in my Tesla from the commie store at like one o'clock in the morning hitting that autopilot and I keep my hand on the wheel, but it just it's a level of relaxation keep your ass in the road Yes I not looking at my phone or anything stupid but it just like oh doo doo you press that that double button Yeah I just huh and it changes lanes oh it doesn change lanes it stays in the lane it does it can change lanes but i think you have to prompt it like if if you want to like it there's an option for navigate on autopilot like it'll like take you everywhere you need to go but i think you need to step in at certain points yeah and you actually so now you can it can change lanes without you pressing uh That's what it is now? Yeah, so you can do it automatically. And they're doing hundreds of thousands, I think. They're tracking the number of automated lane changes. First of all, incredible that this is possible. There's hundreds of thousands of automated lane changes without human initiation happening right now. I mean, to me as a sort of a robotics person, it's just incredibly – Here it is from Wholesnack on Twitter. It says, Tesla's new update lets the car recognize traffic cones, stop signs, and stop lines, trash cans and stop lights at their colors. If you try to run a stop sign under autopilot, the car emergency brakes and forces you to take over after. Right. Wow, you can't run stop signs. So this isn't the update you paid $4,000 for. That's part of that, but I'm actually surprised. But it says Tesla's new update. What's the time on this, Jamie? This is December 24th. I was looking for a more recent one. So this isn't the exact update that you paid $4,000 for. for, I think this is a general part of the full self-driving, which is $4,000. And just to be clear, again, safety person, it's not like it detects traffic lights, but it doesn't stop at the traffic lights for you. And maybe in this case, it does emergency braking on the stop sign, but it's not good enough. It's not good enough. It's not there. It's not there. Don't trust it. It's not there. In fact, there's a lot of people, including myself, think we're quite a few years away, but I've also sort of also on the podcast just like you got a chance to talk to Elon Musk meet him talk to him in person and realize that there's you know there's people in this world that can make the impossible happen you interviewed him as well yeah twice yeah tell me what was that experience like for you so uh you know it was it's quite incredible in the sense that He is a legit engineer and designer, which is like a pleasure for me. I've talked to a few CEOs, talked to Eric Schmidt, just CEOs, and they're a little bit more business oriented. Elon is really really focused on the fundamental like the first principles to like the physics level of the problems that are being solved whether that SpaceX with the fundamentals of reusable rockets and going into deep space and colonizing Mars whether that's in Neuralink, sort of getting to the core, the fundamentals of what it's like to have a computer communicate with the human brain, and with Tesla on the battery side sort of saying he threw away a lot of the conventional thinking about what's required to build, first of all, an appealing electric car, but also one that has a long range. That's something I don't know as much about. But on the AI side, just, I mean, he boldly said from scratch we can build the system ourselves in a matter of months, now a couple of years, that's able to drive autonomously. I mean, most people would laugh at that idea. Most roboticists that know from the DARPA challenges, most of them know how hard this problem is. He said, no, no, no, we're not only going to throw away LIDAR, which is this laser-based sensor. We're going to say cameras only, and we're going to use deep learning, machine learning, which is learning-based systems. So it's a system that learns from scratch, and we're going to teach it to drive from eight cameras and so on. So just talking to somebody like that was not – the fact that he thinks like that, I think it's just fun to talk to people like that. I don't meet them often that say, no, no, no, stop this bullshit of thinking that this task is impossible. Let's say why is it impossible? Is it really impossible? Well, you find out when you start to think about most problems from first principles is that it's not actually impossible. And then you have to think, okay, so how do we make it happen? How do we create an infrastructure that allows you to learn from huge amounts of data? So one of the most revolutionary things that Tesla is doing, and hopefully other car companies will be doing, is the over-the-air software updates. Just like the update that you got, the fact that just like on your phone you can get updates over time means you can have a learning system, a machine learning-based system. They can learn and then deploy the thing they learned over time and do that weekly. That sounds like maybe trivial, but nobody else is doing it, and it's completely revolutionary. So cars, once you buy them, they don't learn, most cars. Tesla learns. That's a huge thing. Forget about Tesla Autopilot and all this stuff. Just the fact that you can update the software. learn most cars. Tesla learns. That's a huge thing. Forget about Tesla autopilot, all this stuff, learn most cars. Tesla learns. That's a huge thing. Forget about Tesla autopilot, all this stuff, just the fact that you can update the software. I think it's a revolutionary idea. And then they're also doing everything else from scratch. This is the first principles type of thinking. The hardware. So the hardware in your car, I don't know when you got the Tesla, but it should be hardware version 2 but that hardware performs what's called inference so it's already trained it's already learned its thing and it's just taking in the raw sensory input and making decisions okay they built that hardware themselves from scratch again ballsy move now they're building what they're calling again he's such a troll but they're calling dojo is the the name of the the specialized hardware for training the neural networks or training the models what training is is the learning side of it so they're building their own like supercomputer google has a tpu to improve the training tpu what does that stand for tensor processing unit it's the same thing as the more general nvidia has graphics processing unit gpus that all the nerds all the people like me have been using for machine learning to train neural networks. It's what most gamers use to play video games, right? But they have this nice quality that you can train huge neural networks on them. Okay. TPU is a specialized hardware for training neural networks. GPUs allow you to play video games and train neural networks. TPUs clean some stuff up to make it more efficient, energy efficient, more efficient for the kinds of computation neural the networks need. Google has them. A bunch of other companies have them. Most car companies would be like, okay, let me partner with somebody else with Google to use their TPUs or use NVIDIA's GPUs. Tesla's building it from scratch. So that kind of from scratch thinking is incredible. And the other two things I really like, listen, that I like about Musk is the hard work. We live in the culture, like so many people, like I often don't sleep. I do crazy shit in terms of just focus, stay up night sometimes. And now often people recommend to me that, you know, balance is really important And taking a break is important You know that you rejuvenate yourself you return to it with fresh ideas All those things are true Sleep is important People on the podcast tell you how important sleep is. But what most people don't advise me is hard work is more important. Passion is more important than all of those things. That should come first. And then sleep empowers it. Rest empowers it. Rejuvenation empowers it. Especially in engineering disciplines. Hard work is everything. And he's sort of unapologetically about that. It's not like, come to us, come work with us. It'll be a friendly environment with free snacks. It's like, you're going to work the hardest you've ever worked on, whether you agree with him or not, on the most important problems of your life. Okay. I like that kind of thinking because it emphasizes the hard work. The other part, in terms of meeting him in person, I don't know if you got to interact with that off because when he was on mic with you, he was very kind of... It was hard to bring it out of him. In person before that, he was very jovial and friendly and huggy. He's great. And then once he got on the microphone, I was like, Oh, this is heavy lifting. I'll bring this out of him. So then we started drinking. Drinking helps. And then, oh, yeah, it helps a lot. And then once the drinking, you know, then I got to see who he is. Yeah, I should have done that. But, no, I'm just kidding. He likes drinking. Yeah. No, I mean, the thing that's really interesting is he's gone, if you look at his biography, like the kind of stress he's been under in terms of he's been at the brink of losing his companies several times. Yes. And he lost a child. And that's the other thing that inspired me is that he can be a good dad while running so many companies. Because I often wonder about the kind of hours I pull and what I'm doing. Can I have a family? Because I'd love to be a father. Can I have a family? Can I be a good person? It's very, very, very, very difficult if you're working 18 hours a day to give your kids the time that they need. But it's possible not 18 out. There's always I believe there's in life day months Maybe years that you have to do the 18 hours a day but not always there time for right do the sprint sprints Yeah and then establish everything and then sit back But the problem with a lot of guys like him is first of all it very difficult to find a replacement for the way he thinks right So if he's the CEO of these companies and he's the one who's the mastermind behind all these things and then he wants to step back, finding a commensurate replacement is insanely difficult. Because most people who would be a potential replacement are already off doing their own shit. And there's not many people like him. That's interesting. That's actually the disappointing thing to me is that his kind of thinking is a rarity. I'm not sure why that is exactly. Well, he's – I joke around about it, but I think there's a spectrum of evolution. And his mind is clearly way more advanced than my mind. And there's something going on in his mind in terms of his attraction to engineering issues, solutions to global problems, solutions to traffic problems, pollution problems, all the things that he's – the internet. I mean he's trying to put – he's trying to give the world internet. I mean he's got all these things going simultaneously. And one of the things that I got out of him when I was talking to him was that he almost has a hard time containing these ideas that are just pouring out of his head like a raging river. Like he's trying to catch handfuls of water and this raging river of ideas that's going through his head. And when he described his childhood that he thought that everybody was like that. And then as he got older, he thought he was insane. Yeah. I can relate to that. I'm trying to learn how to talk, but I have trouble talking because there's like a million ideas running in my head. Like anything you say, I'll immediately start. There's these like weird tangent that go off and I want to start thinking about them. Is that true with a lot of people in your line of work? I think so. I think that's kind of puzzle solving. Like that's where the comfort is. I'm just surprised that a CEO is able to continue being that kind of puzzle solver. Do you see that tweet that he made about his plans? like he put a tweet up in I think it was 2006 and then he's essentially done all those things he's done all those things now the thing is most people I so a lot of people love Elon Musk but there a quite a large community of people that don love him so much well that always the case I don know With anybody great I don know if that always the case When is it not the case I don't know. Who accomplishes as many things as that guy does where everybody loves him? It's a difficult. I mean, I'm not a historian, but I could say Steve Jobs. Terrible example. So many people hated that guy. So many people hated that guy. I have personal friends that are involved in technology that wouldn't use Apple products because he's such a twat. Sure. They didn't want to have anything to do with him. They knew people that were engineers under him. They said it was horrible and mean and it just required so much. He would scream at people and insult them. He had these ideas in his head that he needed to get done. And if you couldn't work the hours that you needed to do what he wanted to accomplish, he would treat you like shit. You're right. I just wish the world was better. I think because like with all people like that, like with Steve Jobs and with Elon Musk, when he dies, people will always – you'll remember the greatness, right? Yeah. So that's how it seems to work. It's just sad that you can't celebrate that currently. But I do think there's one particular aspect of his personality that I also share that pisses people off really bad, which is, like you said, he had a plan. But he's late on that plan. Yeah. He keeps promising things and he keeps being like a year or two or three late. Right. And that really – I don't know if it actually angers people or if people that already don't like you use that as a thing to say why they don't like you. But it's certainly a thing that people say a lot. But I think that's an essential element of doing extremely difficult things is over-promising and trying to over-deliver. That's the whole point. Right. is to say, to make all the engineers around you believe that it's doable in a year. That's essential to do it in two years. So like that kind of – and truly believing it seems to be essential. Well, didn't he have people pay full price for that Roadster? Like you got on a list. Ahead of time, yeah. Yes. So you paid a quarter of a million dollars for a car that's essentially vaporware. Yeah. But the thing – so I don't know. There's a bunch of financial people that get mad at that kind of idea. Oh, yeah. They get furious. There's investors. I think it's the most shorted stock in history. But it keeps kicking ass. It confuses the fuck out of people. To me, it's the most shorted stock in history. I think it's the most shorted stock in history. But it keeps kicking ass. I don't. It confuses the fuck out of people. To me, the stock market is the most boring thing ever in people. It's gambling. Yes. And so you trying to say you're an expert in investing in the stock market, I removed those people from my life because they don't say any interesting ideas. I said it. But when you're doing legitimate investment, yes, that's a really important service to society. But if you're commenting on the fundamentals of engineering problems that real engineers are trying to solve, that's not interesting to me. So that kind of stuff upsets, I think, financial folks. But the beautiful thing is when you have people buy vaporware and you bring that vaporware to reality, that's the amazing thing. He will definitely bring that roadster to reality. If he doesn't die, that roadster will happen. If he dies, bail out now. Same with that insane Cybertruck. Yeah, that Cybertruck is fucking awesome. It's so ridiculous. If he lives long enough, you better believe there's humans being put on Mars. Whether it's him or he gets everybody else. See, that one I'm skeptical of. Just the type of people that are going to want to go. So you're not talking about the engineering problem? No. I think it's possible ultimately. You know, I mean, it's, look, can we put people in space? For sure, we've definitely done it. Can we put things? Well, some people think space is fake. Space is fake. Do you ever Google hashtag space is fake? It's wonderful. It's a testament to the education system in this country. Well, on that tiny little tangent, I've gotten, And I joked about flat earth and space is fake a little bit, almost like saying that's an interesting way to being open-minded. And then I realized that's not something to joke about, that there is a community of people that take it extremely seriously. And then some of them thanked me for acknowledging that the possibility of – and then I had said, okay. Bless their little hearts. Okay. This is not – And their little brains. I appreciate their open but they should take introduction to physics MIT OpenCourseWare provides courses on physics Can a regular person just sign up for that Yeah it open free So how does that work What do you have to do in order to take those courses? It's all made available online. Just go to MIT.org or is it .edu? MITOpenCourseWare is the website. I mean, most people... It's all on YouTube now. Oh, that's beautiful. It's all lectures. There are millions of views. Introductory lectures to physics, mathematics, statistics. I have courses on there. Ah-ha, physics. But in order to understand that the work has been done to recognize the fact that the Earth is round, what would you recommend right away? Classical mechanics with exponential focus? Experimental focus? See, none of those things are going to... No, classical mechanics is good. But if you're a dingbat, you're not going to be able to absorb all that? Look up the Wikipedia page for gravity, I think. That's not going to help either. They say gravity's never been proven. No one understands gravity. There's no one who actually understands what gravity is. We just know the effects of it. It's actually magnetism. Yes, for sure. So you have to undertake the effort of proving the Wikipedia article for gravity wrong. But Wikipedia, bro, what a terrible example. Wikipedia is sketchy. It says I'm Brian Callen's brother. It says I got celiac disease. It says a bunch of shit that's not real. How do you know you're not related? I know. Okay. I'm pretty sure. I mean, he might as well be my brother. I don't know if it says it anymore. Someone put it in there again. Fuck it. Wikipedia is actually another distributed system that's incredibly surprising to me that it works. Yeah, it is, right? Because even though there is a lot of misinformation in it and there's a lot of falsehoods, there's a lot of really good information as well, particularly about historical figures and interesting stuff. If you want to find facts on things, it's great research. And on science and technical topics. So not like nutrition science or things where there's a lot of debates. On like physics and math and so on, it's really good. It's really, really good. So it's community supported by other physicists. But moving back from Flat Earth, can we go back to why you think we're not going to be colonizing Mars? Oh, I'm not saying ever. I'm just saying the problem to me is the type of people that would want to do it. because they can't return. You know, that's the real issue with going to Mars is that you can't return. You don think there a huge number of non explorers in this world That want to die on Mars Yeah I had a whole bit about it I really believe that it the fringe of the fringe that would be willing to die on Mars No. Really? I'd be willing to die on Mars. Really? Stay here. Come on. I like you. Don't go there. No, it's... Here's my take on it. What do you like about me? It's all temporary. What's all temporary? Life? Life. Life is temporary. Right. You're going to die someday. Sure. it but if you decide to die on fucking mars i'm like bro you'll be sending me emails from mars dude i fucked up i won't be sending you emails this is the thing uh you've you're you're into um the native americas you've been reading yeah i've been following your work there i'm set obsessed man yeah i've been obsessed about world war two world war one but you're like you're converting me to think of like to the to the both the warrior cultures and the suffering in that world the suffering's insane it's insane i'm this book on black elk man it details his life from he was a young boy when during custer's last stand he was there when custer was killed black elk the man the guy yeah what do you call that he's a oglala uh lakota medicine man medicine man yeah and he just lived through the transition he lived through the transition of them battling with the U.S. soldiers to them being on the reservation and fucking insane poverty, insane. Just the stories of people, the illnesses and the deaths, how many people's children died, malnourishment, starvation, abuse, and then just how much they hated where they were living and how they were living. On the reservation. Yeah. It's horrific, man. It's horrific. It's like, it's hard to imagine. It's hard to imagine when you're reading that this just happened. You know, I mean, he's talking about the really horrible parts at the end were in the early 1920s, 1930s. it's hard to imagine. It's hard to imagine that this tribe from 100 years prior in the 1820s were living wild and free and were living the same way they had lived for hundreds of years and had this incredible relationship with the land and this incredible religion that they practiced where they worshipped the earth and the animals and the sky and they had all these concepts for the way you should live your life and how to guarantee prosperity and how to guarantee success and man it's just they had a fascinating culture i mean and it's gone it was wiped off the face of the map there was nothing like it anywhere else on earth There was no culture anywhere on earth that was like the Native American culture in the 1600s, 1700s, 1800s. But in that period of time, they had this spectacular way of life. And it was often very cruel and very ruthless. And they warred on each other. This idea that Native Americans were living in peace and harmony with each other is nonsense. Yeah, so I started, I was listening while doing Hills. Yes, you kicked my ass. I was listening to The Empire of the Summer Moon. Fucking great book. I commented on your Instagram, like saying something, you know, basically admiring the purity of that way of life. And I got so much shit by people saying, oh, you think rape and murder is pure and admirable. So there is certainly an aspect to their way of life, which is sort of the warrior ethos, right? The Comanches in particular. Comanches. They were the most ruthless, the most warlike. That's all they did. It's basically like the Genghis Khan, the same kind of the same horses, the innovators actually, war innovators. Yeah. And all they ate was meat as well. I mean, all they ate was buffalo. I mean, they essentially rode with the buffalo, killed buffalo, hunted buffalo, and then raided other tribes. until the white man came, and then they started raiding the white man and killing the white man. But they were at war with white people for hundreds of years. I mean, they were the reason why the West was hard to settle. I mean, the sneaky shit, I don't know if you've gotten to the point where they were giving people these big swaths of land in Oklahoma, and they essentially set them up to be killed by the Comanche. They were like, hey, go out here, we'll give you 1,600 acres. It's all yours. And they're like, oh, terrific. Let's get our family and get in a wagon. And no one let them know that the wildest motherfuckers that ever, ever lived on this continent were running that place and they would go there and just get ever lived on this continent were running that place and they would go there and just get slaughtered and one after another families were wiped out that way and people were kidnapped and that lady that i have on the wall outside cynthia ann parker who was adopted by the comanches she's her family was murdered in front of her when she was nine years old and she became the wife of a great comanche chief and her son became the last comanche chief kwana parker it's crazy man story It's the craziest story. Yeah, so there's all these tribes that some are probably more warlike, some are more peaceful. Yes, yeah. That had a way of life here. I don't want to romanticize too much. I mean, most people don't believe me, but I really like that way of life, that closeness to nature. You said texting from Mars or whatever. I like, you know, I wouldn't choose it, but I would be happier if I was forced into it. It seems like a counterintuitive notion. because I'm so weak. I'm so soft. Like even running hills yesterday, I realized how soft I am. Well, you work too much. Yeah. No, behind a computer with my little fingers typing, right? But you're also a black belt in jiu-jitsu. You're also a martial artist. Me against a Comanche warrior, good luck. I think you'd fuck a Comanche up. They don't know how to fight for real. If they had a weapon, they'd kill you. I think you're just – no. I I listen first of all they were pretty small they weren't very big people second of all they didn't know Jiu Jitsu the average person that doesn't know Jiu Jitsu you're gonna choke the fuck out of them that'd be fun actually to sort of go into different warring cultures like going to Genghis Khan's times yeah without weapons to see what kind of combat styles they had just send Francis Ngannou he'd clean out the entire fucking crew I mean just send Hoyes Gracie is what I mean yeah for sure Francis Ngannou in all generations will be screwed. It's not as interesting. Yeah, right. It's just overwhelming. But I think that if you had real jiu-jitsu skills, what you know now today, particularly because jiu-jitsu has evolved so much. I mean, even the jiu-jitsu of 2020 is so radically different from the jiu-jitsu of 1990. It's radically different. Like almost unrecognizable in a lot of ways. But clearly though the basics are still the most important And there are some of the greats of all time who just operate with the basics whether it Harger Gracie or Hickson Gracie There's a lot of great, great jiu-jitsu players that just have those solid, solid basics that are just honed to a razor-sharp edge. you know uh you know crone crone gracie he's got and i when i say basic it is a compliment i mean he you know arm bars triangles guillotines rear naked chokes those types of things but perfected to a level that is they don't they don't participate in a lot of the more modern there's a lot of like crafty weird stuff that a lot of guys try today and some of the greats Even the greats that participate in jiu-jitsu matches today and are effective at it don't really have that kind of style. Yeah, I mean, but Cronus actually has some more creativity. If you look at Roger Gracie, that's like – Very basic. I don't even know if he does foot locks. I think my favorite thing to do is on YouTube just watch Roger Gracie matches. Like he looks like he's half asleep and he demolishes the greatest black belts in the world slowly by just like in a half asleep way, taking them down, passing their guard, going into mount and doing a choke. Yeah. It's like the against, I don't know, Boucher against just the best. Well, my instructor, John Jock Machado, same thing, man. Just his style is just solid basics of jujitsu. And he has a saying that the more you know, the less you use, which is really interesting. Well, you mentioned Comanche Warriors and the meat. Yeah. Congrats on the – I saw the diet, the carnivore diet. Yeah, man. Here's something crazy. I got off that diet for this weekend because it was – I did the month. And then once Saturday came around, I ate Italian food. I had Girl Scout cookies. Pasta and – Pasta. And then yesterday I went to Disneyland. man. So yesterday I went way, way off the diet and I had ice cream and I ate all kinds of shitty food and I was getting back pains and knee pains and all these kind of weird pains that went away when I was on the diet. Now, this is not a testament against plant-based diets because I was eating shit shitty food and pasta which is a lot of you know bread pasta yeah yeah spaghetti that stuff it causes inflammation it just does you know it just does sugar causes inflammation but it's interesting to have this great month where basically two weeks in after the diarrhea died off i had two solid weeks of no aches and pains and feeling great i was like this is wild this is really wild i feel amazing and then two days of eating shit and like my back hurts right now i'm sitting here my back is hurting my knee was hurting yesterday like all those weird aches come right back well it's uh there's a the nice thing about the joe rogan effect is that you're trying to die and you're talking about keto a lot that's like become more socially acceptable to do because i've been eating keto or low carb for many years and doing fasting like 24, 48 hour fast. And I always kind of keep it more in the low down. But even this time, like traveling, like what I like to do when traveling is I'm kind of, I'm trying to be, given my current situation, not spend much money. And so I go, one of the best ways to go either carnivore or keto is to go to McDonald's and just order beef patties. They'll sell you just beef patties at McDonald's? A dollar 50. Really? For a patty, for a quarter pound, yeah. So you can, you know, like it's like usually what I eat is about two pounds of meat a day. And that's, what is it? I don't know. That's like 15 bucks. So you've been doing this carnivore thing too? Mm-hmm. How long have you been doing it for? Off and on. So I have two, for the carnivore, I've done since the first time, either your podcast or Jordan Peterson or that kind of thing, I dived into. But before then, I've been doing keto. My favorite meal is just meat. And I know some people hate cauliflower, but cauliflower or green beans. Why do you worry if people hate cauliflower? Why did you have to make that distinction? I don't know. Some people hate cauliflower. Who's out there hating cauliflower? Who the fuck are those people? That's a weird thing to hate. I just had a bunch of people say cauliflower sucks recently. Yeah, you're right. If you cook it right, it doesn't suck. You know what's good? Buffalo cauliflower, like buffalo wings, buffalo sauce, cauliflower. Fucking delicious. What's that? But that's a sauce. Yeah. No. Sauce is like you giving in to your weakness Spices And you giving away No see like a blander taste to me is better because you get to appreciate the fundamentals of the food Oh, okay. So I don't know. I just enjoy it. You do salt meat? Salt, yeah. Oh, how do you do that when you can just appreciate the fundamentals of the meat? Yeah. Good point, Joe. You don't like hot sauce? I'm playing checkers. You're playing chess. Do you like hot sauce? I put hot sauce on everything. Yeah, I do, but I stay away from it. Like I try to – listen, food to me right now in my life is a source of energy, not a source of pleasure. But it can be both. Unfortunately, I'm not addicted to drugs. I'm not addicted to many things. But with food, my mind, I don't know how to moderate. Really? So like anything pleasurable is a problem for me in terms of food. Like cookies. You put two cookies in front of me. Dude. Like, I don't know how to eat just one of them. Like, it's just my brain is terrible at it. This is Girl Scout cookie season, son. Yeah. They changed the name of Samoas. Those are my favorite, and now they have a new name. They're like, I think they're called, like, Tagalongs or something like that. They've been that name for a while, I think. Really? When did they change? Those are separate things, though, I think. Am I talking about the wrong thing? Maybe. The ones that are, like, they're chocolate on the bottom. Dude, they're so good. Samoas have that coconut in them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That doesn't sound like the words of a man who's going to stick to the carnivore diet. Oh, I'm going to stick. All right. Yeah, I mean, I'll have cheat days or cheat meals, I should say. Tag along is the peanut butter chocolate one. Oh, that's right. Those are good. Those are fucking good. What are the Samoas now? What do they call them now? Not Samoa. But they just changed. Oh, okay. They just changed to something new. Let's see if there's a new name. I haven't eaten the Girl Scout cookie. Ever? No. What are you, a robot? I'm Russian, too. Basically a robot. Basically. I ate six of those, and I was feeling like shit. I'm like, oh. Oh. What? Maybe. This is just a very quick caramel delight. Is that what it's called now? I don't think so. It's just someone might have owned another company or whoever they were paying to make I was wondering if it was a racial issue. That's what the question was. Was someone saying, because it was racist? It's an odd question. The answer is no. The name of the cookies are owned by the two different companies who make them. Ah. So they outsource it and they just, you know, put their girls' company name on it. They change the name. Racial issue. Wow. Because Samoa. Like someone might be like sensitive to having a cookie named after an island. and they just put their girl's country name on it. and they just put their girl's country name on it. Racial issue. Wow. Because Samoa. Someone might be sensitive to having a cookie named after an island. People are like, hey, fuckface, that's our island, not your cookie. See, those cookies don't even sound good to me anymore. What about American cheese? Is that okay? Yeah, cheat. American cheese? Not okay. Wait, American? Oh, yeah. I stay with the Russian dvorak. It's a cottage cheese. Well, there's Swiss cheese, there's American cheese, and that's it, right? Is there any other countries that are named specifically after the cheese named after the country? I bet you it's not even just like French fries. I bet you American cheese is not even American. Do you remember when there was Freedom Fries for a while? People were trying to call fries Freedom Fries, like post 9-11, because they were mad that France didn't want us going over to Iraq. Yeah, and then people hate Freedom Bandit. Yeah, Freedom Fries. oh that's so dumb the thing I really like actually I think that's the thing that people don't often talk about is the focus so like my life I think a lot of people do this is being able to focus for long periods of time and that's why I stuck with keto or fasting especially yes the focus is pretty tremendous well that's what I really got with the carnivore diet the amount of my flatness of energy the lack of dips and valleys peaks and valleys it's amazing yeah it's great it's uh and the fast fasting helps me too like jack dorsey does only what's called omad one meal a day yeah you could just say one meal a day this omad stuff jesus christ i'm a i'm a hip reddit lingo guy and i think on reddit it's omad oh okay no i don't know one meal a day but 20 you know 24 hour fast that that that's that's a a careful weapon you have to play with, at least for me. It's weird. It helps your mind really focus. I can sit sometimes for five, six hours a day programming, really thinking and lose track of time and really focus. But when you interact with other human beings, you're kind of a little bit of an asshole. I am, sorry. I mean, when I am... No way. In a way where... It funny but if there something about a person that full of crap you are more likely to point that out When you on keto or carnivore No it irrespective of diet Keto, carnivore, whatever is the fasting. Oh, the fasting. The fasting. Really? So it's just more irritable? Is that what it is? I think it's irritable, but you also see things more clearly. And so like, I don't know, I'll talk to my parents, right, or something like that. When I'm more well-fed, I'll be like just enjoy having fun with them. And if I'm like fasted, I'll be like, why are you always judging me kind of thing, right? Like you realize the thing, the aspects of the interaction which are problematic and you want to sort of highlight them. I'm just sort of noticing it, which is problematic when you're in a working environment, especially sort of deliberating, discussing with other engineers how to solve a problem. I'm more likely, especially with a lead team, to say that somebody is a little bit full of shit when I'm fasting as opposed to being a little bit more kind and eloquent about expressing why they're full of shit. I found myself feeling more aggressive and more inclined to use recreational insults. When fasting or carnivore? Carnivore. What's a recreational insult? Come on, fuckface. Fuckface. You know, like saying something like that to someone or fill in the blank with whatever. That sounds like an academic paper. The rate of fuckface goes up. Well, just in casual conversation, I'd find myself using fun insults more often. But fun with the intent of kindness behind? No, I mean having fun. Even talking about people who aren't there. Just having fun. But that's also a function of being a comedian. We do that to each other really bad. like I had a birthday my friends made me a cake that said happy birthday faggot it's just like that kind of shit is just so a part of the culture of comedians like everybody calls everybody bitch everybody you know it's just it's fun which is awesome because this comedian culture is now at full on war with the cancel culture and it's like it's like two armies of people who don't give a damn and people who give way too much of a damn well it's i i have mixed feelings about all that stuff but i ultimately feel like the direction it's moving in the reason why it's happening is for good i think there's a lot of people that are complaining about things and they trying to cancel people and all that stuff and it you know ultimately some of it misguided But I think the ideas behind it like the primary push like the gravity behind it is people want less racism, less discrimination, less of a lot of things. But then along the way you have hypocritical human behavior that gets involved in this and you have people that are deeply flawed themselves but pointing out minor flaws in other people, and then they get exposed and they feel horrible. For every person who participates in this cancel culture, it's like the wave is coming back at you. I mean, it comes in and it comes out, and if you go too far out on that fucking pier, it's going to get you. And this is part of it that we're learning. And I think what people are today, like if you look at the – just the – if you look at humanity from like the 1930s, it was hard, man. People lived in a hard way. It was ruthless. If you watch films from the 1900s, early 1900s, first of all, the domestic violence was so normal. like heroes in movies in the 50s and 60s just smacked women in the face heroes smacked their wives you know hit their kids it was it was a different world and and people would look probably at our time today and say you know people openly ate meat uh meaning not or like uh i could see a not engineered me not engineered meat right yeah sort of ate meat from factory farms as opposed to recreationally hunting it themselves and eating what they've hunted or engineered meat, lab meat. Yeah, or you can get ethically raised food. I mean, there are a lot of ranchers, like it's one of the things that ButcherBox does very well is they make sure that they have relationships with ranchers who have a commitment to ethically raised animals and ethically killed animals. And what that means is, you know, they don't participate in anything that has anything to do with factory farming, no antibiotics, no added hormones ever. And that is possible. I mean, people have been eating animals from the beginning of time literally 97 of the world eats animals and this idea that the only way to do it is through factory farming i don think that correct and the only way you know i mean this the idea is if you eat meat you participate in factory farming and that's horrific i don't think that's true but i do think it is true when it comes to fast food for the most part and that's unfortunate and i think if they could i mean we need more transparency for sure when it comes to that stuff and that's one of the reasons why those ag gag laws agricultural gag laws where people there's laws that prevent people from working in these factory farming situations to expose there's laws that prohibit them from exposing the horrors of these environments that's a real problem that's a real issue that's clearly designed to protect that industry and allow them to commit these crimes yeah it's one of the things i'm uh i'm conscious of my own hypocrisy in this so i've i think deeply unfortunately love meat sort of like and i'm aware of the they how unethical factory farming is yeah and so those two things i have to sit with and be conscious of. I don't know. That's a question like when did that happen? When did the factory farming thing happen? You go back to the 1930s, there was no factory farming. It was just farming. Are you sure? I think it was probably incremental. Are you sure it wasn't in the 1930s? There wasn't already some mass. So what is factory farming? It's scale, but also sort of the suffering. There's a certain line you start to cross where it just feels so. I mean, it's unclear at which point it really becomes torture versus agriculture. That's an interesting line. There's probably a good answer for that. The real problem is the scale. The birth of fast food is really probably where it exploded. Where's McDonald's? McDonald's probably started 100 years ago. I don't know. I'm not sure when it started. At scale, the feeding of massive amounts of people that aren't growing anything, that's the real issue. The real issue is whether you're in New York City or Shanghai or Los Angeles, large, gigantic metropolitan areas that aren't growing anything. They've got to get a lot of food to those people. If you have 20 million people like in Los Angeles, 20 million people eat meat, that's a lot of meat. that aren't growing anything. that aren't growing anything. They got to get a lot of food to those people. If you have 20 million people like in Los Angeles, 20 million people eat meat, that's a lot of meat. Yeah, you got to feed them. You got to feed them. Oh, there's science steps up. I think lab engineer meat is kind of interesting. Yeah, it is interesting. How much have you paid attention to it? Not much. I'm waiting. This is the horrible thing. I'm very cognizant of it that I kind of don't allow my brain to think much about this whole space because I love meat. and I'm trying to save money. I get it. Right, so you eat those McDonald's quarter pounder patties. The life of a scientist, right? The scientist, and especially now I've taken a leap. It's a difficult leap, so I'm still affiliated with MIT, but I decided to leave my full-time position. Why? Do a startup. So I want to try to build the kind of thing I dreamed about. We talked about the movie Her. I've been working. That's been 80%, 90% of my day. In fact, me doing the podcast is trying to – is not trying. It's already successful at giving me enough money for food and shelter. Tell people the name of the podcast so they can – Artificial Intelligence Podcast. Lex Friedman. Lex Friedman. Listen to – what is it? Elon Musk. Eric Weinstein is on there. I talk with Garry Kasparov, Chomsky, Sean Carroll. Sean Carroll is brilliant. He is brilliant. What is it like talking to Chomsky? He talks slow. Well, I talk. Most people say my voice is very boring and I talk slowly. To those people, I say, go fuck yourself. I love you. I love you. You're right. I'm trying to actually. It's very difficult to be, to express thoughts, like Sam Harris struggles with this too, to express thoughts with the kind of humor and eloquence that they are in your brain, like to convert them. As a comedian, you're essentially a storyteller. So you're already, you don't often, you probably don't even acknowledge, you don't even know how you did it. You're like Hadja Gracie. You've probably developed this art of storytelling, of being able to laugh and make other people laugh, of like bouncing back and forth. To me, most of my life has been spent behind a book or computer, thinking interesting thoughts but not connecting with other people and doing that dance of conversation So learning that dance while also thinking is really tough So with Chomsky it was like a pleasure because we can both be robots But I think he's like 92 years old. Is he really? Yeah. And the thing I love about him, so there's all that political stuff that I don't pay attention to. I mean, he's a major sort of activist, but he's also a linguist that thinks that language is at the core of everything, of cognition. So like it's at the bottom. Everything starts with language. Cognition, reasoning, perception, all of that is things built on top of language. So it's a brilliant sort of seminal research. But at 92 years old, he still looked in my eyes and really listened and really thought and really sharp ideas came out. Like you do the same thing. People ask me, like we meet Joe Rogan. Like you don't take yourself too seriously. Even with your celebrity, with the popularity of the podcast, that's a huge thing. And with Chomsky, what was really surprising to me is while he's pretty stubborn on his ideas and so on, people criticize him, he's so stubborn in his ways, he didn't take himself too seriously. Like I sat there, I'm just some kid talking to him. He like really listened. Like the stupid questions, the interesting questions, he really listened. At 92 years old to have that kind of curiosity, I was like, I'm so happy when I see that kind of thing. Yeah, that's a wonderful example of a career academic who's still just concentrating on ideas. Ideas. Yeah, still thinking always. Because academics can be like really any other endeavor, any other discipline. You can get lazy, right? You see that in almost every walk of life. There are certain people that rest on their laurels. And especially when you become popular, you get really good at explaining. so you get like you do these talks you do these lectures so you start saying the same thing over and over you know and you forget to listen like i've because of because of this podcast uh the the artificial intelligence podcast but also joe rogan very two different groups of fans whom i both love uh you know people come up to me and start a conversation and i love it like the just like listening to them and they're yeah i hope i never lose that i'm like younger than chomsky but I hope you stay that way. It's nice if you have the time. It's a problem if you're in the rush and someone wants to talk to you about something like very deep. Yes. I've had those moments where someone says hey man I got to ask you and then I like dude this is a long conversation I can do this right now That the burden That your burden actually I in a beautiful place which I don think will last too long which is I not sufficiently famous Those things don't happen often enough to where I can have that conversation. Right. You have the luxury. Although, let me say, I got to hang out with Brian Callen, who I've been a huge fan of on New Year's Eve. I got to watch the old man dance. And this funny thing happened. He's a celebrity. Yeah. Right? So we're hanging out, and two times somebody came up to me and Brian, and they said, wow, it's Lex Friedman. It's so good to meet you. And then they completely ignored Brian. I was like, this is Brian Cowan. He must have been like, motherfucker. It made me so proud. It's because it's in Boston, and I think it's like nerds and whatever. Sure. Yeah. That is funny, though. That's hilarious. He's one of my, I mean, it was incredible. I didn't know you guys were friends until they all came together in the podcast and so on. I was a huge fan of his from like Mad TV days. He's one of my oldest friends. Yeah. How'd you guys, what's, how'd you guys meet? We met on Mad TV. I was a host one week, and he was the, he was, you know, one of the stars of the show. He's an awesome guy, man, like a really underappreciated person. And he's a guy that because he acts so much and because he gets into that, you know, he's just always into that world. He didn't put the same amount of time into doing his podcast, his personal podcast, as I think he should have, because he's great at it. You know, he was one of the first people that I knew that interviewed Jordan Peterson. And he's, yeah, he's had a bunch of brilliant people on his podcast. He's had a bunch of really interesting intellectuals and scientists. I think it's mixed mental arts or something like that. Yeah, and he's doing it with Hunter, his friend, but he stopped doing it with him. He's an unusual guy, Brian Kalanis, because he's silly, but he's also brilliant. Yeah, you can see that. Eric Weinstein has the same quality, obviously, from different worlds. The silliness, you can see through the silliness that there's an intelligent, first of all, a good human being there, but also an intelligent human being. But at the same time, he's like the butt of every joke. I appreciate that so much. I love silly people. Silly people are so much more fun. People that are like easily offended and easily upset like ugh he so exhausting Silly people are the best I actually so I played your theme song on guitar And Brian Cowell was researching it. Like, how do you play it? And it was a Jerry E. theme song. And there's a Brian Cowell singing video of Joe Rogan's Shoulders for Days. Yeah, some silly song he made up. So I'm working on a deal. I'm going to try to figure out, because I can play guitar and play the theme song and put it up online. You guys are going to work together and make an album? No, we're going to make an album. Like a Joe Rogan theme is going to come up with some words on there. What's the notes? You've got pages and pages of notes in front of you. Is there stuff that you really wanted to discuss? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we haven't talked about AI at all. But let me at least Boston Dynamics. It'd be interesting to talk about. There was a fake video that I sent Jamie today. These motherfuckers, they keep getting me. there's a new fake video i think that was the same one i think there's someone who took another clip from it oh is it those guys have been making vfx videos on youtube for 10 plus years they're really good at it so it's so good for people who don't know there's a youtube channel where people i think it's a single youtube channel that does like yeah visual effects like fake humanoid or robot dog robots that kind of resemble something like boston dynamics would do this was one crazy stuff with guns. Yeah, this one, they gave the robot a gun. Pull it up, Jamie. The Corridor Digital on YouTube is the guys that make it. Corridor Crew is the YouTube channel, I think. Fucking incredible that it's not real. It looks so real. The robot, they kick it, they hit it with a hockey helmet, or a hockey stick, rather. It's their long video they made a while ago. They might have made a new one, which was the one out in the desert, but I think I had seen it before. They trick you with the Boston Dynamics. is boss town boss town dynamics it looks so realistic but here's the thing we're not that far off from this thing no okay okay let's let's walk it back let's walk it back it it's not realistic uh in what way so let's it looks human realistic so you can tell it's a human like a robotics person could tell it's a human because it's really difficult to do that kind of motion that kind of movement like when it's getting shot well not the getting shit so there's a lot of movement it does for the purpose of comedy right like it actually is on purpose trying to look like a human for the comedic internet effect like getting a human that's getting pissed off for the purpose of comedy. for the purpose of comedy. Right. Like, it actually is on purpose trying to look like a human for the comedic internet effect, like a human that's getting pissed off and so on. Those qualities are like another order of magnitude. Like this here, where it's like, give me that, come on, guys. Aw, come on. So for Terminator, yeah. Yeah. Doing Bruce Lee type of movements. Some of those are just comedic. You don't need Terminator type robot. Right, but they do have legitimate robots that can do backflips now and do – So it's a backflip, parkour. This one's real. This is all real. This is manipulation. So all of these robots, depending on what we're talking about here, but those are remote-controlled, and these are single demonstrations that they've perfected. So it's really important to distinguish between the body of the robot and the brain of the robot. So these bodies, unlike anything else, unlike a Roomba, unlike a drone, who can also be very threatening, these bodies somehow, we anthropomorphize them, and they terrify us. I don't know what it is. I met Spot Mini in person. That was one of the most transformative moments of my life. Really? Because I know how dumb it is, but the experience of it, like, it's not even a head. It's supposed to be a hand, but it looks like a head. and it like looking up at me with that hand, I felt like I was like, it was magic. It was like Frankenstein coming to life. It was this moment of creation. And what I realized is my own brain sort of anthropomorphized it. In the same way you're like looking at these robots and you're thinking these things are terrifying. Like what's like in 10, 20 years, where are we going to be? That's our brain playing tricks on us Because the key thing that's a threat to humanity or an exciting possibility for humanity is the intelligence of the robots, the brains, the mind. And these robots have very, very little intelligence. So in terms of being able to perceive and understand the world, very importantly, very importantly, to learn about the world from scratch. So the terrifying thing is you talked often like with this Philosophical kind of notion that Sam Harris talks about sort of exponential improvement be able to become human level intelligence Superhuman level intelligence in a matter of days become more intelligent than that That all learning process that being able to learn that the key aspect we in the very early days of that there um there's an idea of you know big bang is a funny word for one of the most fundamental ideas in the nature of our universe same way self-play is a term for i think one of the most important and powerful ideas in artificial intelligence that people are currently working on. So self-play, I don't know if you're familiar with a company called DeepMind and OpenAI, so Google DeepMind, and a game. I know you're a first-person shooter guy, but StarCraft and Dota 2. So last year, these are, what do you call them, real-time strategy, I guess, and people won millions of dollars in eSport competitions. and so OpenAI separately had OpenAI 5, which took on Dota 2. Dota 2 is the computer game based on Warcraft 3. That's the most popular esport game. And then DeepMind took on StarCraft with their AlphaStar system. And the key amazing thing is there, similar to AlphaGo and AlphaZero that learned to play Go, is the mechanism of self-play. that's the exciting mechanism that I think if we can figure out how to have an impact on more serious problems than games would be transformative okay what is it it's learning from scratch in a competitive environment so thinking of you have two white belts sorry going to jiu jitsu you have two white belts training against each other and trying to figure out how to beat each other without ever having black belt supervision instructors and so on and slowly getting better that way coming up inventing new moves that way. And eventually, they get better and better by that competitive process. That's the machine playing itself without human supervision. The interesting thing is there's a lot of cases in which if you set up the competitive environment well enough for those two white belts, they'll learn to be black belts. They'll learn to be not only black belts, they'll learn to be better than like exactly the kind of evolution that's happening in MMA right now. If you put that in in a digital space and speed it up a million fold, it'll continue to improve. Let me pause you here because this is one of the things that I think probably translates to AI as it does to Jiu Jitsu. You need more than one opponent Like you can have one input One person training with one person specifically and singularly you not going to develop the type of game that you need to become a real black belt in jiu 100%. Exactly. So that's part of the brilliance of this mechanism. So imagine you didn't just have white belts. You had an opportunity to generate a new random white belt, like a fat big one, a little one, and all kinds of different ones. An aggressive one. An aggressive one named Eddie Bravo. A passive one. A passive one. And let them play. And then what you find is like jiu-jitsu might be simpler than the general problem sort of different kind of like Starcraft and so on. But there is sets of strategies in this giant space. These complex hierarchical strategies, like high-level strategies and then specifics of different moves that emerge, some of which you didn't even realize existed. And that requires that you start with the huge amounts of random initial states, like the fat person, the skinny person, the aggressive person, and so on. And then you also keep injecting randomness in the system, so you discover new ideas. So even when you reach purple belt, you don't continue with those same people. You start your own school. You start expanding to totally random new ideas and expanding this way. And what you find out is there's totally surprising to human beings, like in the game of chess or in the game of Go, in the game of Starcraft. This self-play mechanism can do what sort of AI people have dreamed of, which is be creative, create totally new behaviors, totally new strategies that are surprising to human experts. That's why Go was so astounding to them, right? Because it's such a complex game. Such a hard game. and it's able to, well, the first astounding thing, it's able to beat the world champion at. Yeah. The second astounding thing about both chess and Go is it's able to create totally new ideas. I'm not good enough at chess or Go to understand the newness of them, but grandmasters talk about the way AlphaZero plays chess, and they say there's a lot of brilliant, interesting ideas there, like very counterintuitive ideas. And that all The first breakthroughs didn have as much self They were trained on human experts But AlphaZero and AlphaStar and OpenAI 5 these systems are all fundamentally self meaning no human supervision starting from scratch So no black belt instructor You just share it. And that means learning from scratch, that's exceptionally powerful. That's a process from zero. You can get to superhuman level intelligence in a particular task in a matter of days. That's super powerful, super exciting. super terrifying, if that's kind of what you think about. The challenge is we don't know how to do that in the physical space, in the space of robots. There's something fundamentally different about being able to perceive, to understand this environment, to do common sense reasoning. The thing we really take for granted is our ability to reason about the physics of the world, about the fact that things weigh things, that you can stack things on top of each other, the fact that some things are hard, some things are soft, some things are painful when you touch them, all that. There seems to be a giant Wikipedia inside our brain of common sense, dumb logic that's very tough to build up. It seems to be an exceptionally difficult learning problem that Boston Dynamics will have to solve in order to achieve even the same kind of physical movement behavior that we saw in those videos. And then on top of that, to have the ethical behavior, not the ethical, sort of the objective, the complex strategies involved in first following orders and then getting frustrated and then shooting everybody. That's an exceptionally difficult thing to arrive at because ultimately these systems operate on a set of objectives. And what a lot of people that think about artificial general intelligence say, the objectives we need to inject in these systems that they're trained on need to have, one, uncertainty. So they should always doubt themselves. Just like if you want to be a good black belt, you should always be sort of always open-minded, sort of relax, always learn techniques, it's okay to get submitted. So always have a degree of uncertainty about your worldview. The kind of thing we criticized Twitter outrage mobs for not having. So having uncertainty. And the other thing is always have a place where there should be human supervision. And I think there's a... So having uncertainty. So having uncertainty. And the other thing is always have a place where there should be human supervision. And I think we have good mechanisms for that in place that I think I'm very optimistic about where these kinds of learning systems can take us. The exciting thing is Boston Dynamics, well, terrifying, depending on whether you think I'm a trustworthy human being, but the Boston Dynamics is now opening up their platform. So they're working with a few people. I'm trying to make, I'm quite busy these days, so I'm trying to make time to make it happen, to work with them to build stuff on top of the platform. Sorry, I'm referring to Spot Mini as a platform. So this robot is this dumb, it's like a Roomba. It's a dumb mechanistic thing that can move for you. But you can build, you can add a brain on top of it. So you can make it learn. you can make it see the world and so on. That's all extra. That's not what Boston Dynamics offers. So they want to work with people like me to add that kind of capability. And that's exciting because now you can have hundreds of people start to add interesting learning capabilities. And so I may have to retract my words about how far away we are with the capabilities of these robots once you now open up to the Internet. So I was speaking to Boston Dynamics. I think they're solving the really hard robotics problem. But once you open it up to the huge world of researchers that are doing machine learning and doing computer vision and doing AI research, the kind of capabilities that might add to these robots might surprise us. That's where people are concerned, right? The big leaps. The big leaps. And then sort of just not being aware of the consequences of these big leaps. And once you let the genie out of the bottle, you can never put it back. Right. The genie and the self-play mechanism where you grow from zero to becoming world-class chess player. That's the genie being out of the bottle. Did you see Black Mirror? Yeah, Black Mirror. You know that episode, Heavy Metal? Heavy Metal. Very difficult to pull that off. For now. For now. And you had a conversation with Nick Bostrom, whom also talking on the podcast. Yeah. One of the things he mentioned is – so I don't think he thinks about this stuff a lot. I do about military applications. I talk to folks That one of the things people don just like with me they kind of put to the side They don want to think about military applications Right I would be more worried about drones than I would be about robot dogs Right. Because the kind of stuff we saw in the Black Mirror episode is really difficult to pull off, to make a robot learn. Well, drones are kind of more impressive, right? Because they hover. They can move through 3D space. They have Hellfire missiles attached to them. I mean, there's a lot of crazy shit that they can absolutely do right now with drones. And you're talking about large-scale drones, but you can think of small-scale drones. And I think there's also a Black Mirror episode with drones where they take over. I haven't seen that one. So I think there's drones everywhere and they're kind of doing, you know, your basic friendly government surveillance, mass surveillance kind of thing. I think it's for – I think they sell in the episode that it's for a good cause. Spoiler alert, but I think they like start killing everybody or – Duh. Of course. Wasn't there – there has been research done on making artificial insects that have like little cameras inside of them that look like a dragonfly or some sort of bug. And they fly around and they can film things. And the thing that terrifies a lot of people is going more microscopic than that. but more like robots inside the body that help you cure diseases. Yeah. Not only certain things, even at the nanoscale. So basically creating viruses. Yeah. Creating new viruses. Little tiny ones. Yeah. And if they learn, they can be pretty dumb. But on a mass scale, dumb, you don't have to be intelligent to destroy all of human civilization. So the real question about this artificial intelligence stuff that everybody seems to, the ultimate end of the line, what Sam Harris is terrified of, is it becoming sentient and making its own decisions and deciding that we don't need people. That's what everybody's really scared of, right? I'm not sure if everybody's scared of it. Yeah, they might be. I think that's a story that's the most compelling, the sexiest story that the philosopher side of a Sam Harris is very attracted to. yeah I am also interested in that story but I think achieving sentience I think that requires also creating consciousness I think that there requires creating the kind of intelligence and cognition and reasoning abilities that really really difficult I think we create dangerous software systems before then They be a huge threat I think we already have them. The YouTube algorithm, the Twitter, the recommender systems of Twitter and Facebook and YouTube, from everything I know, having talked to those folks, having worked on it, And the challenging aspect there is they have the power to control minds, the mass sort of what the mass population thinks. And YouTube itself and Twitter itself don't have direct ability to control the algorithm exactly. Like one, they don't have a way to understand the algorithm. And two, they don't have a way to control it. But what I mean by control is control it in a way that leads to, in aggregate, a better civilization. Meaning like sort of the Steven Pinker, the better angels of our nature, sort of encourage the better sides of ourselves. It's very difficult to control a single algorithm that recommends the journey of millions of people through the space of the Internet. It's very difficult to control that. And I think that intelligence instilled in those algorithms will have a much more potentially either positive or detrimental effect than sentient killer robots. I hope we get to sentient killer robots because that problem I think we can work with. I'm very optimistic about the positive aspects of approaching sentience, of approaching general intelligence. There's going to be a huge amount of benefit. and I think there will be there's a lot of mechanisms that can protect against that going wrong just from knowing the we know how to control intelligent systems when they are sort of in a box when they're singular systems when they're distributed across millions of people and there's not a single control point that becomes really difficult and that's the worry for me is the distributed nature of dumb algorithms on every single phone, sort of controlling the behavior, adjusting the behavior, adjusting the learning journey of different individuals. So to me, the biggest worry and the most exciting thing is recommender systems what they called at Twitter at Facebook at YouTube YouTube especially That one has just like I think you mentioned there something special about videos in terms of educating and sometimes indoctrinating people. And YouTube has the hardest time. I mean, they have such a difficult problem on their hands in terms of that recommendation because they don't... This is a machine learning problem, but knowing the contents of tweets is much easier than knowing the contents of videos. Our algorithms are really dumb in terms of being able to watch a video and understand what's being talked about. So all YouTube is looking at is the title and the description, and that's it, mostly the title. It's like basically keyword searching. Yeah. And it's looking at the at the clicking viewing behavior of the different people. So like it figures out that the Flat Earth supporters enjoy these kinds of videos. It forms a different kind of cluster and makes decisions based on that. By the way, it seems to make definitive decisions about, you know, it doesn't like Flat Earth YouTube, I think. Well, YouTube in particular, they're trying to do something about the influx of conspiracy theory videos and the indoctrination aspect of them. One of the things about videos is, say, if someone makes a video and they make it on a very particular subject and they speak eloquently and articulately, but they're wrong about everything they're saying. They don't understand the science. Say if they're talking about artificial intelligence. they're saying something about things that you are an expert in there they could without being checked without someone like you in the room that says that's not possible because of x y and z without that they can just keep talking so one of the things that they do whether it's about flat earth or whether it's about dinosaurs being fake or nuclear bombs being fake they can just say these things and they do it with an excellent grasp of the english language right so they say it they're very compelling in the way they speak they'll show you pictures and images and if you are not very educated and you don't understand this is nonsense and if you're especially if you're not skeptical you can get roped in you can get roped in real easy and that's problem and it's a problem with some of the people that work in these platforms their children You can get roped in real easy, and that's a problem. You can get roped in real easy, and that's a problem. And it's a problem with some of the people that work in these platforms. Their children get indoctrinated, and they get angry. Their children get indoctrinated. Now, what's interesting is they get indoctrinated also with right-wing ideology, and then people get mad that they're indoctrinated by Ben Shapiro videos. So they'll get pissed off at that. But you're okay with left-wing. Right. Why? Because you're left wing. So then it becomes like, okay, what is a problem? What's really a problem? And what is just something that's opposed to your personal ideology? And how, who gets to make that distinction? And that is where the arguments for the First Amendment come into play. Like, should these social media companies that have massive amounts of power and influence, should they be held to the same standards as the First Amendment? And should these platforms be treated as essentially a town hall, like where anyone can speak? And there's a platform. And there's a real problem in that there's not that many of them. This is a real problem. The real problem is like Twitter is the place where people go to argue and talk about shit. And then Twitter maybe has a competitor on Facebook, but YouTube certainly doesn't have a competitor. YouTube doesn't have any competitor. I mean, there's Vimeo. There's a few other platforms, but realistically, it's YouTube. You know, YouTube is a giant, giant platform. What is this? Alphabet reports YouTube ad revenue for the first time. Video service generated $15.1 billion in 2019. Holy shit. In comparison, I just looked up Twitch ad revenue was supposedly around $500 to $600 million. Wow, that's a big difference. And what about Facebook? Facebook is stupendously valuable. Probably way higher than that, but this is the first time I've seen a report. Facebook, I don't think, pays. Like YouTube paid for my McDonald's burgers yesterday. Yeah, Facebook's not, right? Facebook is not, and Twitter and Instagram I don't think are paying you directly. There's a lot of calls to break up Facebook. I'm not. I mean, I'm on Facebook, but I'm not on it. I don't use it. It just connected to my Instagram When I post something on Instagram it goes to Facebook as well I never go to Facebook There a Joe Rogan Facebook group That a dumpster fire of brilliant folks Let me just put it that way. Look at this. Facebook's revenues amounted to $21.8 billion. It was just the fourth quarter. Jesus Christ, just the fourth quarter. The majority of which were generated through advertising. The company announced over 7 million active advertisers on Facebook during the third quarter of 2019. That probably, though, also adds an Instagram. That thing with YouTube is just YouTube, not Google, not YouTube Premium, not anything else. Yeah. And to be fair, so the cash they have, they spend like Facebook AI research groups, some of the most brilliant. It's a huge group that's doing general open-ended research. Google Research, Google Brain, Google DeepMind are doing open-ended research. Like they're not doing the ad stuff. They're really trying to build. And that's the cool thing about these companies having a lot of cash is they can bring some of the smartest people and let them work on whatever in case it comes up with a cool idea. Like autonomous vehicles with Waymo. It's like, let's see if we can make this work. Let's throw some money at it, even if it doesn't make any money in the next 5, 10, 20 years. Let's make it work. That's the positive sort of side of having that kind of money. Yeah, that makes sense. As long as they keep doing those kind of things. The real concern though is that they're actually severely influencing the democratic process. It's difficult. I mean certainly in Jack Dorsey. Jack Dorsey in terms of the CEOs we've interacted with I think was one of the good guys. Yes, I agree. Yeah. I mean he's – He wants a Wild West Twitter. Well, he doesn't know – he wants a good Twitter. He's kind of thinking about Wild West. But he wants – his ideas have two. Oh, two Twitter? One that's filtered and one that's like anything goes. Yeehaw. But I think the point is nobody knows what's the best kind of Twitter, even having two Twitters. Do you really want the Wild West? Do you want the First Amendment to say free speech for everyone? It's a difficult – like the gray area there, you were just talking about YouTube with certain people like saying that I'm an expert in AI or autonomous vehicles. but I disagree with a lot of people. And if those people make videos and maybe they don't have a PhD, God forbid, like are they not an expert either? Am I right? And I actually personally sick of the academic sort of cathedral thinking that just because you have a PhD and just you can be an expert Like I not an expert I an idiot Do you feel like that that line is getting more blurred with the access to like all those MIT courses that are online and the extreme amount of data that available to people that there are going to be a lot of people that even though they might not be classically trained they have a massive amount of information And have an open mind. Yeah. Like the best, you know, I love, like I've recorded a podcast, right? I do like, first of all, shout out to Jamie for being incredible mastermind of audio production. Right. What? Thank you, sir. Thank you. But the reason I'm giving a shout out because it sucks so badly I didn't have to do it. I do it all myself. But I learned that I do it, you know, pretty good. When you learn it yourself from scratch, just like with jiu-jitsu or with music and so on, I learned guitar. From scratch, you can learn with the online materials they have now. You can become really good. And the journey you take is not the traditional conformist journey through that education process. You take your own journey. And when you have millions of people taking their own journey through that process, there's going to be brilliant people without a PhD or without ever having gone to college. Right. And they – I mean it's difficult to know what to do with that, especially about political questions like economists. There's these – Paul Krugman, Nobel Prize winner, economist, Harvard economist. They're supposed to be the holders of the truth of the fundamentals of our economy and when is there going to be a crash, what's good for the economy, is the left, the right, what taxation system is good for the economy. But nobody really knows. Same with like nutrition science, psychology, economics, anything that involves humans, it's a giant mess that expertise can come from anywhere. Like Rhonda Patrick. I think she's pretty criticized for – she's kind of young. Yeah. And she's – I would say she's incredibly knowledgeable as one of the world sort of experts. But I think academia probably doesn't acknowledge her as an expert because she's like young. She recently got a PhD. I don't I'm not even sure you know like that. There's that kind of hierarchy that people did she's been Unjustly criticized by people who don even know her actual credentials There was one guy who was criticizing her and saying well She not a clinical researcher That one of the things he was backing his criticism on Like no that exactly what she is And she been doing that for years Like you don know what the fuck you talking about People get very touchy with her because she's young and also because she's incredibly brilliant. Like that lady, she brings stacks and stacks of notes when she comes here. She doesn't even look at them. She just rattles off all those studies off the top of her head. She has a massive amount of data available and she's very unbiased in her perceptions of things like her she's all about what do the results say what have the studies proven what can we learn from those studies and what do we have to take into consideration when we're we're assessing this data she's brilliant she's she's off the charts brilliant and people get fucking jealous and i've seen it i've seen it with weaker, lazy minds in academia that criticize her that had, at least at one point in time, had a larger platform. And I think her platform is bigger now. And I'm happy that I've played a part in that. And I don't want to be a social justice warrior, but I have seen women being criticized more harshly in a lot of domains of science. I think you're right. Yeah. Well, you know, and she's pretty too. There's a lot of things wrong there. You know, young, pretty. I get criticized for that too. Like, good looking. You're a beautiful guy. You dress well. You're good looking, funny, yeah. You're handsome. No, actually I get criticized as this guy's an idiot. He's boring. Why can't he be more like Joe Rogan? What else you got there? What else? The notes wise? Yeah. I got to talk to you about martial arts. Okay. I got to talk to you about, well, so I'm a huge fan of wrestling. I'm a huge fan of the Dagestan region. Yes. And I've gotten a lot of shit for it. Posted that, you know, Connor's going to be cowboy before that happened. I'm also a huge fan of the different styles of fighters in MMA. And I'm surprised how much shit actually Conor gets. Even though he brought, besides sort of all the mess that came with him, he also brought an interesting style, an interesting way of approaching fights, an interesting style of thinking, and also philosophizing about fighting, which I think is amazing. and it clashes with the ideas of Khabib to me like the could be number get mad off it'd be so I posted that Connor would be cowboy and well I didn't know Dan was gonna say was gonna say but face Masvidal and I thought he could be So I posted that Conor would be cowboy. So I posted that Conor would be cowboy. And, well, I didn't know Dana was going to say what he was going to say, but face Masvidal. And I thought he could beat Masvidal. And then the biggest fight ever, 30,000 people in Moscow against Khabib. For a rematch. For a rematch would be the greatest fight ever. Getting past Masvidal is not easy. And Khabib getting past Tony Ferguson is not easy. Yeah, both of those fights. And, first of all, Masvidal is now going to fight Usman, which is very interesting. It is going to, right? Yeah, that's July. Very, very interesting fight. Usman is such a tank. He's fucking terrifying. They hate each other. There's a lot of, yeah, certainly a lot of animosity and a lot of shit talking. But it's also the more that happens, the better it is for both of them in terms of revenue generated. It's a really interesting fight. Now, let me tell you something. When Masvidal was at the Connor Cowboy fight, when they put the camera on him, biggest pop from the crowd. The biggest. Pop meaning like applause, like screaming and stuff. People went nuts. They saw him. They're like, yeah. And he was like. And wearing that robe over there. He's hilarious. Dude, I mean, he's right. Look, he's a slow starter in terms of his career, like being recognized for the kind of fighter that he is now and also being recognized publicly as like a superstar. But his time has come. He is here. He is a fucking star. When that camera went on him and the audience saw him, that crowd went bananas. The entire T-Mobile arena, they went crazy. Yeah, that would be, I mean, yeah, with Usman, it would be an epic fight. But in terms of the great, I just think, maybe it's me, the romanticized notion of Rocky IV, but Conor versus Khabib in Moscow, I can just see it with Putin and Fedor sitting there. I'll sit next to him. Do you think they would do it in Moscow? Yeah. 30,000 people. If Conor went to Moscow, man, good luck getting out of there if you win. Good luck getting out of there if you lose. If you lose. But I think – He's so loved there. Khabib is so loved in Russia. But they – I think Russian people also love MMA generally. The fan – the number of people that love fighting in Russia is huge. and I know it seems like on the internet Khabib is like they love Khabib and Conor hated But I think ultimately they love a good what does Conor call it A good – Heel? No, no. A good scrap I think he calls it. A good fight. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that would be probably the biggest fight of all time. I think actually Conor has a shot. Like this – I love – Khabib is probably my favorite fighter. I love that style of fighting. I like the Saetiev brothers that Frankie Edgar mentioned to you about. Probably the Buvaizar Saetiev is the greatest freestyle wrestler of all time. Just epic. His brother Adam has a match against a soldier of God. What's his name? Yoel Romero. Yoel Romero at the 2000 Olympics in the finals. Yoel Romero looks like the most, If you were to imagine the most terrifying opponent ever, he's just shredded, ripped. And then Adam Saitiev looks like, I don't know, dad bod, very skinny nerd. And he just effortlessly destroys him. Really? Yeah. With a trip. Let me see that video. Is it online? 2000 Olympic Sydney finals. Adam Saitiev versus... Spell his name? Adam S-A-I-T-I-E-V versus Yoel Romero Yoel Romero's fighting Israel Adesanya in March that is giant I can't maybe not too much of a nerd but well he definitely doesn't look as built as Yoel Yoel's a freak Yoel's probably the freakiest athlete I think I've ever seen personally in terms of his build, like his small waist. He hugged that guy and picked him up. I was at the end of it. What moment was he looking for in here? There's a couple moments where he scores points. Lowell's got him down here. Yeah, so he's up by 4-1. And I think, once again, he takes him down. There's a 4-0 there. Just start it off from the beginning so we can watch it. There's a certain moment. There it goes. Just start it right there. they're basically technicians yes for sure when you look at the Dagestani people I mean there's such emphasis on technique yeah of everything else but also toughness it like they don they have both things like and this is one of the things that George St Pierre told me about training in Russia Excuse me training in Montreal What a takedown right there Fuck that was spectacular Oh, my God, it's amazing. Look at that. I think that was like Intertrip, Uchigari type of trip. He covers his mouth. What George St. Pierre told me about training with Russian nationals in Montreal, He said they're so technical in that you get a lot of Americans that are definitely technical, but they emphasize being hard and tough and grueling training routines and grinding, butting heads in practice. And he said, whereas the Russian nationals are far more committed to drilling, far more committed to the technical aspects of exchanges and going through one technique after the other, chaining these techniques together, understanding the paths. Also, one of the, at least to me, one of the differences, it could be similar to Yael Romero's actually philosophy, but the philosophy of the Dagestani, the Russian people, the Soviet Union, is that recognition, fame, money, all that stuff doesn't matter. Even winning doesn't matter. The purity of the art is what matters. At least with the Saitiev brothers is what they stood for. Well, that mirrors what Khabib says about Conor, that he doesn't want to have a rematch with him. he's like fuck that dude that's there I mean Khabib is a little bit more of the modern age I mean he has an Instagram and Twitter and so on right and Khabib despite what he says also does a little bit of trash talking and you know he still plays the game a little bit I want to change his face that's my favorite send me location I want to change his face most people say especially when I'm on here is basically if Khabib did science that's I take that as a compliment that's one of my favorite quotes he's ever said though I want to change his face I want to change his face it's terrifying it's terrifying because he can do it the cool thing is with Conor that doesn't affect him the confidence he has the confidence that Conor has is just incredible well that he wants to do it again but I know for a fact that Conor was going through a whole lot of shit before that fight and did not have the best training camp and if he did an amazing training camp for this like he really prepared like he did for Conor or excuse me, Cowboy. The Cowboy fight, his coaches were saying he's never looked better, that he just was on fire and so focused and so accurate and precise in training that he was just on fire And that just seemed to be that all of the bullshit and the distractions and all the things that sort of come with being the kind of global superstar that Conor is, he managed to figure out a way to get away from those and to just really concentrate on his craft and pull everything to a championship level again. And God damn it, he looked like it against Cowboy. And to see the contrast of those two cultures, I mean, it is a Rocky IV type of situation. Yeah. Because you better believe Conor McGregor will resume trash-talking. Who knows? He might not. He might not? He might not. I mean, he didn't in this fight with Cowboy at all. He didn't do any trash-talking. I wonder if maybe he has learned, and I wonder if his desire to beat Khabib eclipses his desire to get inside of his head and play all the games that he usually plays and the promotional games that ultimately probably won't be necessary. But I think the UFC is trying to push for it right now. They're pushing for it right now, a rematch with Khabib, but they're ignoring Tony Ferguson in a lot of ways in my eyes, and I'm like that is the boogeyman. That's going to be exciting. It can go anywhere. He's the boogeyman, dude. He doesn't get tired. He doesn't get tired. He slices everybody up. He's lost one fight in X amount of years, and that was because he had a broken arm. Michael Johnson broke his arm. So when you think about what Tony has been able to do to world-class fighters, what he did to Donald, I mean, he just smashed Donald's face. He smashed Anthony Pettis. He smashes everybody. Tony Ferguson's the goddamn boogeyman. He really is. He doesn't get tired, man. Do you think he'll get taken down? For sure he'll get taken down. Do you think he'll be able to do his thing on him? He's not scared to be taken down. That's the difference between Tony and everyone else. If he gets taken down, he might let him take him down and just attack off of his back and elbow the shit out of him off of his back. He's fucking dangerous off his back. He's hard to control. He scrambles very, very well. He also has fantastic submissions, and he catches them from everywhere. I mean he catches triangle chokes, darts chokes, his darts chokes are spectacular. He's got one of the best darts chokes in the sport. And he's not scared. Ooh, if Khabib gets admitted? Oh my god, that would be crazy. What if he puts Khabib to sleep? Darsh Chokes in the sport. Darsh Chokes in the sport. And he's not scared. Ooh, if Khabib gets submitted. Oh my God, that would be crazy. What if he puts Khabib to sleep? Look, remember when Dustin Poirier Do you remember when Dustin Poirier caught Khabib in a guillotine? Yeah. Yeah, he did. He caught Khabib in a guillotine. Listen, that is not where you want to be with Tony Ferguson. You do not want to be in that position with Tony Ferguson. That's a different kind of guillotine. Dustin Poirier is primarily a striker. Clearly he has submission skills. he submitted guys before he submitted max holloway and dustin poirier is a bad motherfucker no doubt about it but when it comes to pure submission skills tony ferguson has an edge and um you know he's a black belt in 10th planet black belt he's a master of submissions and a great wrestler and a great scrambler and the thing about him that's so fucking terrifying is his cardio is all the things, right? It's the striking. It's the grappling. It's the submission abilities. But he's not going to get tired. He doesn't get tired. And his mind is impenetrable. His mind's impenetrable. Yeah, people are looking past that fight. Fuck no, not me, man. I don't understand it. When the UFC's talking about, you know, look at everybody he's fought. Beat the fuck out of everybody. Edson Barboza, Rafael Dos Anjos. Tony Ferguson, yeah. Yeah, I mean, he smashes people. He smashes people. I mean it's crazy I would say I would say it's probably Khabib's toughest fight to date I think it is his toughest fight I think that puts you know a lot of people put Khabib close to the top 10 of all time oh he's in the top 10 of all time in my eyes he's 28-0 who cares about the record you look at the people you've beat sometimes we idolize people for the perfection of the record too much dude the way he ragdolled Rafael Dos Anjos The way he steamrolled, like, I mean, he's beaten top flight competition and made them look like they have no business being in there with him. But I think if you beat Tony Ferguson, I mean, that places him. That cements it. And people put him above, like, I don't know. I think Hanna deserves to be in that story, in that top, like, 15, top 10. Perhaps. Perhaps. Jose Aldo. Yes. I don know why people look past like Jose Aldo or Eddie Alvarez Oh yeah The Eddie Alvarez fight was unbelievable At least maybe I just biased in the sense that I thought there no way that Conor beats Jose Aldo. And then there's no way Conor beats Eddie Alvarez moving up a weight class. Like I always thought he's going to lose. And being surprised makes me like up Conor's ability in my head. Well, he's phenomenal. With Conor, it seems to be a matter of how focused he is. And who is he fighting? And where is he at in his life? He's just, his life is so chaotic. He's always filled with so many distractions. I mean, think about all the crazy shit that he's done. Throwing the dolly at the bus and all the nutty shit he's done. But it's nice that he seems to be still hungry to fight, even though he probably has a lot of money in the bank. Well, he certainly was hungry to fight Cowboy. I mean, he looked fantastic in that fight. and again he's worth a couple hundred million dollars so it's just the pure love of the game the pure love of the game and that's kind of the that's the warrior ethos that Khabib comes from and that's cool to see that mind if I, nobody's ever said anything in Russian actually probably in the Joe Rogan podcast no I don't think so if you ever need a translator I'm your man so just a few lines in Russian so So, Buvaissar Saitiev would read Boris Parsonak, which is a famous Russian poet, won the Nobel Prize before every match. And he kind of captures that ethic. So, this is the poem. I'll say it in Russian. Okay. And then in English. Please. Okay. Другие по живому следу пройдут твой путь с опять-опять. Но поражение от победы ты сам не должен отличать. и должен не единой долькой не отпуститься от лица, но быть живым, живым и только, живым и только до конца. I know there's a bunch of Russian people that would appreciate that. The translation is a bit crappy. It's very difficult to translate the Russian language. But it's, the others, step by step, will follow the living imprint of your feet. But you yourself must not distinguish your victory from your defeat. And never for a single moment Betray your credo or pretend But be alive, only this matters Alive and burning to the end So this is the end of a poem that represents The fact that fame Most of the poem says that fame recognition money none of that matters the winning and losing none of that matters what matters is the purity of the art just giving yourself completely over to the art so like others will write your story others will tell whether you did good or bad others will inspire using your story but as the artist so in the case of pasternak he's a poet writer that did wrote dr shivago the is the art you should only think about the art and the purity of it and the love of it and so when you look at uh buvaser say tf and the brothers and the whole daghestan region they shunned fame so like the the thing that khabib is thrust into this mma world which is fundamentally i mean it's a really It's a popular sport. It's an interesting thing. I mentioned, I think, last time I was on here, the most terrifying human being. You know investors when they buy a penny stock, seeing it's going to blow up? To me, the most terrifying human being in the heavyweight division, the Russian tank I mentioned last time, the Sadulaev, who now just continues destroying everybody. And it looks like he's already won a gold medal, won a bunch of world championships. He's a heavyweight. The heavyweights in the UFC should be scared. Is he going to fight MMA? So the hard thing – Spell his name and let's get a video so we can look at it. There he is. Jamie's got it. Bam. Think of – I will never join MMA. No, hold on a second. That's not true. The MMA. The MMA. That's part of the quote. And that's not – So, yeah, Abdul Rashid Alive, that's closer to where he was chasing. He's still chasing the Olympics. So 2020 Olympics are coming up. How do you say the name? How do you say his first name? Well, I just call him the Russian Tank. But it's Abdul Rashid Alive. Okay. 23, 24 years old. And I think his tension is, he says he has a lot of close friends who are MMA fighters. He loves watching it, he feels a lot for them, but it's not the very thing that this poem gets at. He doesn't want, he thinks that wrestling, the pure sport of wrestling is all about courage skill like he describes it in this way He thinks MMA also has to have this component of sort of trash talk and showmanship And he doesn't like it. But I think that MMA needs that guy too, right? Like a heavyweight Khabib. Heavyweight Khabib. Every Conor needs a Khabib. Like every showman needs a person who says showmanship sucks. Every Ali needs a Frazier. Yeah, Frazier, right. But this guy is terrifying. I think he would do the same thing to the Khabib division. Again, humble, technique is everything, but just strength-wise is also a monster. And is he really thinking about fighting or no? It's hard to say. It's hard to say because, again, one of the greatest wrestlers of all time really focused on 2020 Olympics. He's throwing punches here. I think what's going to happen is once likely wins gold at this Olympics, he's gonna he's gonna you know this this titanic ship a 23 24 year old ship is gonna start thinking and turning maybe there is artistry maybe there is skill and courage and mixed martial arts well there definitely is i mean he doesn't have to do the trash talking thing there's a lot of people that are very stoic that fight and they they don't participate in any of that stuff you know and then there's people that thrive on that stuff i mean it's it's really up to you the ufc doesn't tell you you have to talk trash you know i mean results are what matters right and it's not even trash that's interesting i think stories are interesting yeah that's why that's why people like like team sports like nfl but there's a soup did you watch the super bowl yesterday no i didn't yeah went to disneyland i wanted to talk to you about something that was at Disneyland. What's that? There's a new Star Wars ride. Yeah. This crazy Star Wars ride. And it's a 20-minute ride. I mean, it's this crazy long ride. And a lot of it, you're in like a vehicle. Yes. And the vehicle is all programmed by computers. The direction of the vehicle, the way the vehicle moves, it's very complex. There's no tracks. So you're riding around in this vehicle, and the vehicle, like they're shooting at you, the vehicle has to back up. You go into this new door. The vehicle knows how to go around a corner and what's that guy's name Darth Maul is trying to cut through the wall spoiler Fucking this this new ride is amazing it's crazy trying to cut through the wall spoiler alert fucking this this new ride is amazing it's crazy how intricate and complicated it is and how far off the deep end disneyland went to create this thing i mean it looks so crazy i mean you're like how much money did this cost this is it right here so you're riding around in these things and stormtroopers are shooting at you and are there rails or no no no there's no rails man everything is done by computer the computer tracks out the environment and knows where each one of these go and by the way there's several cars moving at the same time so there's people in front of you they're in cars they get shot at and look at the fucking scale of this place so that's one of them giant four four-legged robot things that's in star wars so you're moving underneath them there's giant cannons that you have to move through it's rise of the resistance. It's trackless. Yeah. So this represents There's lines on the ground, there's some I think those lines on the ground are just the wheels going the same way over and over and over again. Yeah, no sorry, I just wanted to sort of commentate but they're probably not used in the computer version. So yeah, I think it's probably LIDAR based. It's... I don't know what it's based on, but it's some the computer is coordinating all of these different things at the same time. You go through this room and you're seeing battles outside and you feel it. You see the walls get hit like that. It's fucking crazy, man. It's amazing. I mean, the ride, the line is bonkers. So the robotics aspect of this, like the AI aspect of this is probably minimal. Look at that. Look at that. You're in this thing. You move through this room and in the background you're watching these starships shooting at each other and it's fucking crazy. It's all timed perfectly. Yeah. It's crazy, man. Yeah, so to make this happen, I mean, these are people that are willing to probably invest hundreds of millions in this. Guaranteed. So I think there's some – like there's very minimal AI in this because AI creates uncertainty, and uncertainty is very undesirable in situations like this. Yes. Yeah, I don't think there's any AI in it, but there's some – for sure there's some sort of automation, some computer automation. Yeah, but it's basic software. It's like it's software automation. Don't call this basic. Don't you dare. Don't you dare, Lex. It's Star Wars, it's not even real. Wow Who are you There reusable rockets being launched on a monthly basis and we going to colonize Mars for real soon That real That more interesting for sure Definitely But this is dope So I'll be sitting on Mars while you... No, I'll be here playing fucking Disneyland rides. And then I'll go home and sleep in a bed and breathe air. And fuck, you'll be out there on Mars. And the history books will remember you. 80 degrees below zero. The history books? I don't know. The history books don't matter once you're dead. Yeah. I mean, it's nice that we have access to the history books, and I praise the historians for sure. But I'm not interested in making history. Yeah, I don't know actually why I said that because I don't care about the history books. Just the exciting – it's one of the only frontiers that we can actually be explorers in. Like we've explored – well, the depths of the ocean we haven't exactly explored. Right, yeah. But the outer space, that's like – man, that's like the most exciting possibility for engineering and science. that we can explore and the mind like i mentioned like we don't know shit about the mind and exploring that with the neuroscience with ai just all of that the the cautious the all the other thing you talked about with bostrom simulation yes i wanted to talk to you about that too um because you brought up bostrom what do you bostrom relies on i mean he was relying on theories in terms of like mathematical theories of probability to to say that he thinks it's more likely that we're in a simulation yeah he has he has a the thing he's articulated i don't think he's come up with the idea of the simulation he just kind of really thought about it deeply he came up with a simulation argument which are these three categories that he described to you possible outcomes. I think the first one is we destroy ourselves before we ever create a simulation. The second one is that we would lose interest in creating a simulation at some point. And the third one is we're living in a simulation. Yeah. Where do you lean? I think there's going to... The three paths that he highlighted, it makes it sound like it's so clear that it's just three, but I think there's going to be a huge amount of possibilities of the kinds of simulations. Like, to me, I keep asking, you know, to ask Elon Musk about the simulation. He said what's on the other side? What's outside the simulation? I think I asked what would you ask an AGI system He said what outside the simulation is the question He believes in it Or at least he entertains it as a troll Elon Musk embodies the best of the Twitter internet troll, a meme, and a brilliant engineer and designer in one. It's like a quantum state that you can't quite figure out what's the coupling. Because I don't know if he's trolling, but I'm the same way. I love asking people about the simulation, even though I get a little bit of hate from the scientific community, but it pushes... Why do you get hate from the scientific community about simulation? Because it's a ridiculous notion if you think of it literally, because it's not a testable thing. We don't know how to test. Why are you talking about this? Why do you sit down with Elon Musk and talk about the simulation when you're sitting with a world expert in particular aspects of rockets or robotics? I'm an expert. I can't believe I just said that. I'm not an expert in anything, But I know a few things about autonomous vehicles. Why don't you talk to them about that? Why don't we talk about simulation? Well, the thing is the simulation pushes you outside of the muck, the messiness of everyday details of science and makes you ask big questions about like the nature of our reality. And I like to think of it as like what – how would we build a simulation? Like what would be a compelling enough virtual reality game that you want to stay there for your whole life? That's a first step there. That's useful to think about like what is our reality? What aspects are most interesting for us humans to be able to perceive with our limited perception and cognitive abilities, interpret and interact with? And then a bigger question then is like how do you build a larger scale simulation that would be able to create that virtual reality game, which I think is a possible future. We're already creating virtual worlds for ourselves on Twitter and social networks and so on. I really believe that virtual reality will enter. We'll spend more and more of our lives in the next 50 to 100 years in virtual worlds. And the simulation hypothesis and simulation discussion is part of that. I think there's the question of what's outside simulation is really interesting. That's the other way of because like what created us? What started the whole thing? It the modern version of asking what is God What does God look like It asking what does the programmer look like I think that a fascinating question But arguing that we're already living the simulation, I think you've got stuck on that little point. I think it's not that – There's a bit of a language barrier too. There's a technical – Yeah. I think Nick is legit. It's funny. It's funny. Nick is a legit philosopher. So he's been fighting battles in the philosophy game. Like you asked him, does somebody disagree with him on these hypotheses? And there's a bunch of philosophers disagree with him, including Sean Carroll on the philosophical level. And a lot of the arguments are in philosophy. And they're sort of technical and they're about language and about terms and so on. But I think, yeah, it's very possible that we live in a simulation. I think one of the constructs of physics, theoretical physics, with many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, as Sean has talked to you about, reveals some interesting sort of fundamental building blocks of our reality. There's something I don't think people have talked to you about, which is like the coolest thing to me, the most amazing thing that nobody can explain, yet things called cellular automata. and there's a guy, a mathematician named John Conway who came up in the 70s with a thing called Game of Life and cellular automata are these two-dimensional or one-dimensional but Game of Life is a two-dimensional grid where every single little cell is really dumb and it behaves based on the cells next to it and it's born when there's a certain number like three cells alive next to it and it dies otherwise so it's like a simple rule for birth and death and all it knows is its nearby surrounding and its own life. And if you take that system with a really dumb rule and expand it in size, arbitrary complexity emerges. You can have touring machines, so you can simulate perfect computers with that system, and it can grow, and all these behaviors grow. Like if you watch, if people Google, like, game of life, and you can watch this extremely dumb, simple system just grow arbitrary complexities. And what you start to realize that from such incredibly simple building blocks that don't know anything about the bigger world around them, you can build... realize that from such incredibly simple building blocks that don't know anything about the bigger realize that from such incredibly simple building blocks that don't know anything about the bigger world around them you can build our entire universe you can build the kind of complexities we see in this so like we think that god is like designing every little aspect or whatever of our world or a simulation hypothesis the simulation is designed by hand like i'm going to craft these things what you realize is all you can all you need to do is just set some initial conditions set some really basic rules and allow the system to grow as long as it can grow arbitrarily just crazy stuff amazing stuff can happen from like from simplicity complexity can emerge and that for like if you study this a little bit closer just like watch it people can watch a game of life on youtube and think about what it's showing like for 10 minutes it'll blow your mind the fact that from simplicity arbitrary complexity beauty can emerge is like incredible so for the simulation the creator of the simulation is probably some 13 year old nerd living in like uh in his mom's basement it's probably just set some rules in this video game and press play and then arbitrary very complex, it can emerge. It can have a Joe Rogan. It can have an Elon Musk, all the technologies that we've developed and probably millions of other alien species that are living throughout our universe. Jesus. So, yeah, that to me, the cellular automata reveals that the simulation is much easier to create than we might think. But there's a lot of variability in the kinds of simulations we'll create. I think the simulation hypothesis thinks there's one. But I think there's going to be a lot of varieties. There's a lot of possible different rule sets. There's a lot of different physical mediums in which these simulations could be created. It can be a completely virtual world. The role of consciousness, whether you make most people conscious or not, whether most of them are philosophical zombies, they're just like non-player characters and it's just you, or is your mind simulated like the role of suffering? So consciousness brings with it this idea of basically subjective experience And with subjective experience comes the idea of pain and fear and so on The thing again my Russian romanticization of it but I think fear of death is essential. Scarcity is essential for beauty, for life. Yeah. And that's a nice feature of this little simulation we've got going on, that there could be a lot of different alternatives, I think, that could be less individualistic, less consciousness can be present in different kinds of forms. I see there's a lot more options than those three that he highlights. And we can destroy ourselves in a lot of interesting ways. The entire civilization is from AI to nuclear weapons to biological to all kinds of weapons. So it's almost like whether it's a simulation or not is almost irrelevant. The complexity of the existence and all of the various pushes and pulls that keep everything together. they're they're almost operating like some grand plan whether they like it or not whether whether or not a grand plan exists all these different things are happening and everything is moving in a very specific direction right it's moving towards further complexity like uh i was having a conversation with a friend of mine last night where we were talking about phones and uh we were like, you know, like when are they ever going to look at a phone and say, I think we're good. We don't have to, the camera works great. Signal's great and call people. You can text people. Let's just stop innovating right here. And we're both laughing. Like it's never going to happen. But even though we admit, like if you have an iPhone 11 or a Pixel 4, is that what you have? Yeah. It works. They work great. You don't really need anything better. like in terms of the way our culture works you get so much done on these things you can bank on them is it okay if i'm drinking all your waters by the way yeah we have a lot of water yeah please you're so russian that's very polite of you um the the just the existence itself whether or not there's a design to it it seems to operate in a matter that would indicate there's a design the design doesn't have It doesn't have to be a simulation. It doesn't have to be a grand plan, but it moves in the same way as if it's a grand plan. It weird it hard to put into words but there a different force and a momentum like the evolutionary process the fact that life was created the fact that there always a kind of a progress and also like just like with the Native Americans the the fact that suffering seems to be a constant story that was weaving in like we we constantly progress but we seems to be like creating the other and torturing and There seems to be constant suffering and war and so on through this growth process. And that seems to be – death is a huge part of that. And conflict. Conflict. Even social conflict. Like we were talking about social justice warriors and that type of thing. I think they almost have to exist. It's almost like the world creates a space for them and people find a way to fill that space. Yeah. The conflict, by the way, also, I don't know if you're even aware. You're kind of, even though you were thrust into politics, you're not aware of politics. But there is the Iowa caucus going on today. It's like the first vote for the Democrats. Yeah. So Bernie's leading in the polls, which is interesting. But that's the fun little, Americans have their own little conflict going on here. Oh, there's always going to be conflict with all groups of people, with everything. I mean, there's conflict in the comedy community. I'm sure there's conflict in the AI and autonomous vehicle community. There's conflict. I mean, and those things are critical. You know, you learn from conflict. If everything was just simple and easy and there was no resistance whatsoever, nothing would get done. And also your own personal systems would never get tested. I feel like every adversity that you experience is really a gift because on the other end of that adversity, there's an opportunity for massive growth. What was that Think and Grow Rich quote that Lovato said the other day? Every adversity carries the seed of an equivalent advantage. I mean, just that. Yeah. Just that. That's a beautiful way to see it. That's a beautiful quote. I had to write it down. I bought that book, too. I'm going to get to that once I'm worn out on Native Americans. I got about seven other Native American books. I've been, like I mentioned, doing the startup since August. and it's been a bit of a torture. Like the self-doubt is pretty hardcore because I've been failing nonstop. Like so I trying to build spending most of my day programming You trying to build a her or a she whatever it is Is it she or her Her Her But no on that path there a particular thing because you want to create a business You want to make – you have to create tools that people would enjoy using on the path. That's a long journey to create a companion that can form a deep friendship. That seems so weird. It seems – everything seems weird until your life becomes better because of it. like flying cars seem weird oh yeah to me still in fact uber and hyundai just partnered they're still pushing this idea of flying cars electric vtols i just feel like people are going to slam into each other yeah unless they are autonomous and they have like magnets so they repel you know like they can't hit each other they get close and it's your and what happens when they hit like to me the like what does an accident look like they fall on your head yeah you're hanging out in your house trying to watch you know black mirror or also like currently most accidents people can walk away from like cars today are incredible right and i don't know how you can walk away from a right crash good question very good question you probably won't yeah fuck that's scary yeah but the any technology kind of seems awkward or weird you can you can be terrified of it or you can you know you can think it's weird until it until it takes over i I mean, none of us know what that would look like to have a closer connection with AI systems. I don't know. One of the things in this book that I'm in the middle of with – I'm actually towards the end of this Black Elk book is it details the invention of the automobile and the implementation of it and how the world changes. That was the other surprising thing about this book is it's so recent. It's crazy. Really, really recent. Yeah. So during this time where Black Elk was a young boy, sees Custer get killed, takes his first scalp, remembers the sound of the man gritting his teeth as he's cutting his hair off, like cutting his scalp off. And then later on in his life, as he's an older man, the world goes from very few automobiles to most people have an automobile during his lifetime. Most travel is by automobile. What does he say about this world, this new world? Oh, let's read the book. Right. Because he doesn't even know about this world. He knows about the world of the 1930s. I believe he died in the late 30s. world this this new world that's no let you read the book right because this is the i mean he world this this new world that's no let you read the book right because this is the i mean he doesn't even know about this world he knows about the world in 1930s i believe he died in the late 30s it's just it's scary to be born not scary but i don't know what it would feel like to be born in this natural world to see the kind of suffering and the u.s military and then see the technology of the industrial revolution kind of propagate and be faced with that i don't know what that would feel like i don't know which world is better which world represents progress is um right right what is progress yeah what is pro i mean it's it progress seems to be inevitable complexity inevitable never-ending complexity and then there's this push towards that and i've always wondered if i mean elon has this saying that human beings are the biological bootloader for ai and i've always thought that if you paid attention to the human beings desire for materialism like materialism seems to be like a constant throughout cultures people want things and when they have things they want better things they want newer things well that generates a consistent level of innovation inside that civilization, that culture. People are going to make better stuff because people are going to want better stuff So they going to improve upon things Well if you just scale that and you keep going improving improving what do you get to Well you get to something like artificial intelligence You get to something like some sort of an event some sort of a thing where the world changes And I think technology will help us ride that wave. I'm an optimist in that sense. We haven't talked about much, but I'm an optimist on Neuralink. I think there will be a few exciting developments there. So Neuralink brain-computer interfaces, I think it's a really exciting possibility there that Nick Boston was too also skeptical about. I'm more positive about increasing the bandwidth of our brain being able to communicate with the Internet, with the information. It doesn't necessarily need to be through brain-computer interfaces, but increasing that bandwidth to expand our ability of our mind to reason. Not to expand the ability to reason, sorry. To take the mechanism of our mind's ability to reason and expand it with access to a lot of information and increase that bandwidth to be able to reason with facts. Just like we can look up stuff on Wikipedia now, increasing the speed at which we can do that can, I think, fundamentally transform our ability to think. Do you think that that's ever going to be a wireless option? because right now they have to drill holes in your head, right? Right. Yeah, I think there could be other interfaces, I think. Yeah, I think so. But also like I said weird technology Holes in your head sounds terrifying right now but it could be normal Like ear piercing Well yeah ear piercings yeah So there's something special about that. Like, hey, did you get suited for Neuralink yet? Billy's only 13. He's not ready for Neuralink. We're going to wait until he's 16. He's like, Dad, all my friends have it. Come on, Dad. I want to get fitted. And just like surgery. You take knee surgery, you take all surgery except brain surgery, and you take that for granted. You're like okay with it, but on the brain it's... Yeah, it's scary. Sketchy. Can I... Because I know you probably got to go. Yeah. What do you got? Can I close it out with a poem? Let's do it. Because I'm that guy. Okay. Because I've been doing the startup. I've been suffering, so I'm reading a lot of Bukowski. Oh, Bukowski poems. Do you get drunk when you read them? Of course. Some whiskey. Roll the dice. Vodka? vodka is for friends and family when you buy yourself it's whiskey no I don't a man does not drink by himself some men do well this man doesn't but it's more like relaxed thinking drink is whiskey vodka is we're going crazy oh okay we're going we're going dark we're gonna raid and pillage roll the dice or go all the way by Charles Bukowski if you're going to try go all the way Otherwise don even start If you going to try go all the way This could mean losing girlfriends wives relatives jobs and maybe your mind Go all the way It could mean not eating for three or four days. It could mean freezing on a park bench. It could mean jail. It could mean derision, mockery, isolation. Isolation is the gift. All the others are a test of your endurance or how much you really want to do it. And you'll do it, despite rejection and the worst odds, and it will be better than anything you can imagine. If you're going to try, go all the way. There's no other feeling like that. You'll be alone with the gods, and the nights will flame with fire. Do it. Do it. All the way. All the way. You will ride life straight to perfect laughter. it's the only good fight there is I want to take a picture of you while you're reading that pick up that piece of paper real quick we'll fake it fake it for Instagram alright fake it for Instagram people on Instagram that watch it will know fake fake look up fake that was awesome appreciate you brother thank you very much for coming in here it's always a pleasure we gotta do it more often yeah 10 more years yes 10 more years bye everybody Nice. Thanks, man.