#2438 - John Mellancamp

the Joe Rogan experience why would I hate my tattoos because you get older and they get all smudgy and Mine are getting kind of smudgy. Yeah, well, look at this one. It's pretty smudgy. Pretty fucking smudgy. I owned a tattoo parlor in, I don't know what year it was, mid-'80s, and they were illegal in Indiana. But because it was me, they said, okay, leave him alone. Really? Mm-hmm. I remember when they were illegal in New York. I went to Connecticut to get my first tattoo. Yeah, I didn't know it was illegal, but I met this guy in L.A., and he worked at Sunset, you know, where the Hyatt House is, and there was a tattoo parlor right across the street. Anyway, he was there. And so I brought him to Bloomington because he wanted to get out of L.A., and guess why they closed me down? Why? The fucking guy was a heroin addict. I know. And he did this tattoo one time, and I went over. I just went over to the shop. I said, hey, let's do this little. And he was all fucked up. And it was just like, what's wrong with it? Because I didn't know. I don't know anything about heroin addicts. There wasn't a lot of heroin addicts back then. That was a rare thing. Now, we think about how many people are, because of the Sackler family, think about how many people are hooked on opiates today. I mean, it's got to be. Lots. It's off the charts in comparison to what it was like in, you know, the 1980s. I mean, I knew one guy that had a friend who did heroin. That's it. The first time I saw somebody do heroin was I was in college, and there was a place called Bull Island that tried to imitate Woodstock. and me and my then wife and my kid and my little girl and uh and my roommate who lived with us we just walking down and we see this guy shooting up So we just thought well we watch Because he was just sitting right there I mean, there was like 200,000 people there. And he shot and he went out. And I looked at the guy I was with and go, we won't be doing this. We're not going to do this. I had a friend who was a longshoreman, and he worked with this guy that every lunchtime he would go and score and sit in his truck and shoot up. And that's what he did every lunch. He was a functional heroin addict. And he would show up for work every day, and he did his job. But during lunchtime, during his hour, he would do heroin and just fucking find his happy place. and then an hour later go back to work. And the one shot would last all day? I don't know. I don't know if he did heroin. I didn't ask if he did heroin after that as well. I'm assuming he probably did. But he was a functional heroin addict. Like, guy kept a full job. He was in the union. And everybody knew. This guy would go on his break, shoot up. last time I did drugs was 1973 what was the reason you stopped my ear yeah well I used to like to smoke and drink whiskey and then I liked to fight oh that's a problem I couldn't whip anybody but I loved the contact and the rush of like you know starting the fight but so anyway I was in college and my roommate and I went to this downtown bar which we'd never been to and I sat at the bar and I would start these fights you know just a prick and I was sitting next to this big guy and for whatever reason, I thought it was a good idea if I spit on him. Oh. One of those guys. You know those guys that get drunk Oh yeah Yeah well that was me So I did and we went out back and he left me in the alley like a wet rag I mean, he beat the shit out of me. Beat the shit out of me. And I was a hippie. I had hair down to here. And the guy, my roommate, was driving me home in an old Pinto. and I was leaning on the door like this. I was so fucked up from getting beat up. I mean, the oars around my face were this big. And I was leaning on the door, and all of a sudden, he went over a road track, and I fell out of the car, got my hair wrapped around the jigamaflop that holds the car, and the guy that I'm with, drunk, driving, he didn't even know I fell out of the car. and I'm going, stop the car, stop. He went, oh, oh, oh. And so I got up the next morning and I looked at myself and I was unrecognizable. I had road rash on my arms. My knees were all fucked up. My face was beat up. And I just said, you know, this drug and alcohol thing is not working for you. and so I went and got all my hair cut off not as short as yours but not much longer and that was it well you found your rock bottom yeah that's what they say they say you need to find rock bottom I would never imagine that you would be the type of guy that would fuck with people at a bar and spit on somebody and start a fight it just you just don't seem like that at all well I grew up in a small town and there was not much to do in a small town. You know, you would either find a girl or fight. I figured you for the find the girl type of guy. Well, you know, I did okay with that, but it didn't always work. So, yeah. Yeah, it was like, don't forget, Joe, So it was like 1967, 66. You weren't even born yet. I was born in 67. Yeah, so this was like 1967. Wow So you know So from that time on until I turned 21 I was 21 when I quit using drugs and quit smoking quit drinking Wow. Nothing since then? Not a drop. That's impressive. Not a drop. Well, you know, I think I've thought about it and I think that I didn't really like it that much. You know, as much as I thought I did. Well, you certainly didn't like the results, right? one bad result will set you straight yeah we'll do you in yeah you were a big part of my high school experience it was interesting because you your song sort of introduced the idea of nostalgia to me you know i don't know what that means well the when you were singing songs like jack and diane It's like I was kind of realizing as I was a very young guy listening to those great songs that there's going to be – like this is a weird time in life and there's going to be a time where you're going to look back on this and it's probably one of the best times of your life. But even though it doesn't feel like it, it felt confusing and weird. And I remember thinking at the time like, my God, like is this as good as it gets? Some people look back on this weird, confusing time of adolescence as the happiest moments of their life. I'm like, I can't wait to get the fuck out of this time of my life. And it's like you were singing from a position of like an everyman position of – you were singing – there were great fucking songs. They had heart and it was soul to them. But it was like it was a lot of sadness, you know. Oh, yeah, life goes on long after the thrill of living is gone. And I was like, oh, Jesus Christ. Life's going to go. This is it. This is it. This is it. Well, listen, I struggled with that probably like you did or he did. And there's a point in a man's life where he feels like, there's got to be more to life than this. I mean, I had huge hit records and very, very, very, very, very lucky, very lucky. You know huge hit records and you know, very, very, very, very, very lucky, very lucky. You know everything was just, you know, I was just lucky. And I would go home and I would think I'm not happy. There's got to be more to life than this. And then guess what happened? I I got a little bit older and I found out there's not. And I'm good at it. I'm good at it. So, you know, we're only on this earth for a few fucking minutes. Quit feeling sorry for yourself and quit being confused and accept your responsibilities and try to, you know, maintain some humility, which was a million miles away from me spitting on people. Right. In a bar. What didn't you enjoy about being this enormous rock star in the early days of MTV? I mean, you were a rock star when it became a totally different thing because it was like this visual thing that was in everyone's household now. It wasn't as simple as, no, you were on The Tonight Show and you would sing this musical segment and people would have to go see you live to go see you perform. And all you got to see of guys in rock bands were their album covers. you know you yeah you would go to a record store and and file through the records and if you liked the way a band looked you would buy the record at least i would i would too yeah and and so um i forgot the question well i was just saying like what was it what was not good about that i mean what what was that experience like being this enormous rock star that left you feeling like you wanted more, that you weren't happy? I think that for me, I think when that happens, it's the age you're at. And I think it's a chemical imbalance in our brain. And as we grow older, it kind of finds its way. And like I said, I just woke up one day and just went, hey, this is all there is except it. and try to show some humility and try to be good at it. And I never thought about it again That interesting Well you a snap out of it type of guy right You snapped out of drugs and alcohol You snapped out of feeling sorry for yourself Yeah. That's a good trait to have. Well, I'm very lucky that I'm just— Listen, Joe, you're looking at the luckiest fucking guy you've ever interviewed. I don't give a shit who you've interviewed. I'm the luckiest guy you know. I was born with spina bifida. Do you know what that is? I don't. that's where you have a hole in your spine and the fluid and all of the your nerve endings like on me oh wow oh that's crazy yeah that scar is huge that's 1951 In 1951 you got that operation? I was born with, you're born with spina bifida. So what did they do to, what was that operation exactly? Well, they had to, well, here's the story. I was, my parents were only 20 years older than me. So I was born deformed. And my parents didn't know what the fuck to do. you know, what are we going to do with this kid? So they just went like that to my grandmother. Here, you take him. And so I was in the hospital, and there were four other kids, and there was a young doctor named Heinberger who was just a young neurosurgeon. Don't forget, neurosurgery in 1951 was in its – so he just said, well, we've got to try to do something with these kids. and so he operated on all of us I was on when it lived oh boy you know the fact that and he charged my parents a dollar because it was an experiment I was like a guinea pig and these other poor kids who had the same thing I did they all died within you know six months I remember seeing one girl that made it till she was 14 and she was in a wheelchair I would see her at basketball games and my parents would go that the other little girl that had the same operation you did And then she died. So my whole life has been full of luck. I mean, I'm not supposed to be here. What did they do during the operation? What is the procedure? Well, they have to cut your head off for starters. You know, they had to cut my head and lay it open to get to my spine. And then they would push each individual nerve ending back down into my spine, drain the fluid off, sew it back up, and make sure that everything was working. and they told my parents, you know, look, here he is. He's probably going to die, get encephalitis, and his head's going to fill up with water. We don't anticipate him living much more than six or seven months. And I was, I think I was in fifth grade. I didn't even know I'd had the operation. And some kid in my class said, Hey, Mellencamp, what's that big scar on the back of your neck? Don't forget, now we're talking, you know, 1957, 58, 60, maybe. I didn't even know there was a scar back there. You know, wow, it wasn't like I was going. And my parents never told me. So I came home and I asked my old man, I said, Dad, what's with the scar on the back of my neck? And he goes, oh, don't worry about it. He had an operation when he was born. So I did it. I played football, I ran track, I fought, you know, I did everything that every other kid did without a thought of that. Not until I got older and I started having panic disorder that I thought maybe the panic disorder was from that operation. How old when you started having panic disorder? I was just out of college. I couldn't leave the house. I became what they call, what's that called, agoraphobia? Yeah Yeah so I had agoraphobia for about a year and a half And then I got a record deal and I had to leave the house I mean I was married in high school I got married in high school. And the girl I was married to was five years older than me, you know. How old were you? 18. 18? Yeah. You had a kid, right? You had a kid real young? Yeah. She's 50-something now. Wow. I have three girls and two boys. Weren't you a grandfather when you were in your 30s? Maybe. I think you were, right? Yeah. NFL playoffs, let's go. 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For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see dkng.co slash audio. Limited time offer. Because that oldest daughter of mine got married when she was like 19. Wow. Not much to do in a small town, man. Yeah. Not much to do. So that's the spina bifida. But it never bothered you again other than the panic? Were you performing when you were having the panic stuff? Oh man, I have been on stage in front of like 20,000 people and had a panic attack. Oui. Yeah, it's like, have you ever had one? No. stage in front of like 20,000 people and had a panic attack. stage in front of like 20,000 people and had a panic attack. Oui. Yeah. It's like, have you ever had one? No. You're lucky. Because you feel like, I can't breathe. My chest hurts. I've seen it. I've seen people have them. It's horrific. You can't do anything for them. You think they're having a heart attack. You think they're dying. Yeah. Well, I've been on stage, and I remember having to plant my feet and just power through in front of 20,000 people. And it was awful. Did it pass while you were on stage? I don't know if it did. I just remember it happening numerous times. And then guess what happened? I had a fucking real heart attack on stage at Jones Beach like 30 years later. Oh, Jesus. I know. So, but you know what that heart attack led to? I just married Elaine Irwin, and we had two little boys, and I got to stay home. Because I said, fuck it, I'm going to die. I didn't know about heart disease. I'm going to die, so I'm going to spend the last couple years of my life with my boys, who were little teeny guys, which I want to tell you a story about them and you. And so I got to actually kind of not be in the music business, which pleased me. How old were you when you had your heart attack? Forty-two. Oh, geez. And so I got to stay home. I stayed home for three and a half years. Elaine didn't model, and we just, you know, we had TV shows we watched, which is unheard of in my life. You know, like, hey, it's Thursday night. Let's watch this, you know, which is where you come in. So the boys were little, and they loved your show. They loved your fucking show. And I was kind of like, I don't know if the kids should be watching this, you know. You're talking about Fear Factor? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if the kids should be watching. So I made a deal with them. All right you guys you can watch this show but you have to watch 60 Minutes too So if you going to watch this then you got to watch 60 Minutes And they obliged which surprised the hell out of me But it was like, Dad, 60 Minutes on. Dad, Fear Factor's on. I know. So we would watch it together. I mean, how lucky is that? Well, it sounds like it was a blessing in disguise. Yeah. It gave you a pause. You know what luck is? What? Thinking you're lucky. Thinking you're lucky. Yeah. What you think about yourself all comes true. I wrote it in a song once. What you think about yourself will come true. So if you call yourself a dumbass, guess what? You do it enough and your brain starts believing it. What caused your heart attack at such a young age? Me being stupid. I would go in to get a physical and they'd go, John, your cholesterol is off the charts. It's at 400. And I would go, am I all right now? And they'd go, well yeah, you're all right now. Good, because I didn't want to get on medicine. You know, and statin drugs had just become, were just invented. You know, at that time, people started using statins and I didn't want to take them. I didn't know what they were. But I know all about heart disease now. Did you have plaque? Did you have arterial plaque? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it runs in my family. I have a sister that has, or she used to. I don't think she does anymore. But her cholesterol is a 500. Imagine. That's like, it's crazy. Cholesterol is a very controversial subject now because people are starting to try to sort out what is the actual cause of heart disease, and there's a lot of people that don't believe it is cholesterol. They think it's arterial plaque. What is that stuff called? Natokinases? I don't know how to pronounce it. But there's a supplement, like an over-the-counter supplement that's supposed to be able to eliminate arterial plaque in a very profound way that they're just starting to realize. I don't know. It's clogging of it. Listen I was in New York once with a girl and I went to the doctor with her She was an actress and she was getting a physical and she wanted me to go so I went with her And she went to the best doctor in New York City. And I found myself alone with that doctor. And I said, so the doctor in Bloomington just put me on metformin. What's the side effects for metformin? And this guy, Joe, the guy, he went longevity. And he said if it was up to me, I'd put the entire United States on metformin and a statin because the fucking food we eat is terrible. Yeah. It's processed. it's this and that you know and he just said you know the human body was not meant to eat this crap that's a fact yeah yeah i think the solution is probably eating food that you're meant to eat but metformin is uh one of those drugs that longevity doctors recommend i've never been on it but uh i know quite a few people that have i think isn't it a diabetes drug initially yeah and i'm my mom died of diabetes so uh i was always borderline and i'm still borderline and this was she get type one or type two well she started out with two and then she paid no attention to it wouldn't take her medicine we'd drive by krispy kreme and she'd go don't tell your dad okay and she'd get a half a dozen you know krispy kremes and eat them and it's just like that's where it's at it's it's It's the food. It's a horrible thing that we've done to this country. You know, there's – I mean this is the most controversial thing about RFK Jr., I guess, or one of the most controversial things is the elimination of all the stuff that's already eliminated in a lot of European countries. I had a friend come here from Europe who had not ever been to the United States and got sick just from eating. Just eating our food. Yeah. It's crazy. Just our bread. What is that supplement? You had it right. How do I say it? I think of how you were saying it. Can you find out what it's supposed to do? Because there's a recent study. There it is. Okay. So, yeah, that's it. Nanokinase supplementation can significantly reduce the size of existing arterial plaques and slow the progression of arteriosclerosis I never say that word Arteriosclerosis No Atherosclerosis Whatever. Particularly at higher doses. Natto kinase and arterial plaque reduction. Multiple clinical trials provide evidence that natto kinase, an enzyme derived from fermented Japanese food nato has a positive effect on arteriosclerosis, hardening and narrowing of the arteries due to plaque buildup. Yeah. So, folks, go take that stuff. High-dose supplement shrinks arterial plaque by 36%. Very interesting stuff. And it's a very common supplement. It's an easy-to-get supplement and, you know, comes from fermented food. Well, you know, if you, you know, I've watched a lot of things about the food that we eat and terrible terrible well a bunch of monsters decided to make more money and the way they make more money is to throw a bunch of preservatives and bullshit and stuff into food so it keeps their shelf life as long as possible oh yeah you've heard those stories about taking a a hamburger that you would buy at a very popular store and just putting it in a box and leaving it for five years and you five years later it's oh yeah Yeah. Some of my grandkids were at my house on Daufuskie, and they had an ice cream sandwich, and they only ate half of it. And it sat there for three hours and did not melt. Yeah, I've seen those. Yeah, that's not ice cream. That's not ice cream. I don't know what the fuck's in there, but it's not regular ice cream. The Burger King or the McDonald's hamburger thing is nuts because what is the longest that that guy – there's one guy that's had one on a shelf at his house for – God, I want to say it's close to 20 years or something crazy like that. It's just sitting there. And you would think that he got it five hours ago. Yeah. Yeah. And we're supposed to be eating that. Yeah. And for a lot of people, that's a big portion of their diet is fast food, which is just crazy. You're just sucking down all these chemicals and preservatives because if something can not rot can sit there and not rot It's a quarter pound it's 30 years old and preservatives. Because if something can not and preservatives. Because if something can not rot, can sit there and not rot... It's a quarter pound and it's 30 years old. It's a quarter pound and it's 30 years old. Wow. That is insane. Yeah. That's insane. That's craziness. Wow. Yeah. Our food source, and I don't know about RFK Jr. I don't follow what he says or listen. And I try not to listen to much politics. Good for you. You know why? That's another good way to not have a heart attack. Well, you know why? Because it's all, you know, I was a hippie. And I grew up thinking, you know, that anybody over 30 was the enemy. Right. And, you know, it's kind of like, I remember when Kennedy was shot, I asked my dad, I go, I was like a kid. I go, do you really think one guy did it? And he just looked at me and went, what do you think? And that was his whole answer. Wow. Well, he knew it back then. That's interesting. Because it took until Dick Gregory brought the Zapruder film on the Geraldo Rivera show, which was I think it was 12 years after Kennedy's assassination that people realized that he probably had gotten shot from the front. Yeah. Because his head went back into the left. Yeah. And I've seen that. And I remember my dad was a young Democrat, you know, and so he was involved a lot with the Democratic Party back then. And I'd ask him questions and he never would really give me answers. he would just give me looks and he knew the look it was just like what do you think John you really think somebody did that you know figure it out for yourself yeah not much has changed and that's why I don't watch I don't you know I used to be very politically minded and cared about what politicians said I don give a fuck what they said I don trust any of them I don like any of them Not that I don like them It's just that I don't, you know, it's just hard to believe anything that anybody says because everybody's spinning everything in such a way that it's just like for their purposes, you know, so, you know. And unfortunately, we're more aware of it now than ever before. there's less trust in politics now than there's ever been and then there's more people talking about politics than there's ever been there's more polarization i mean i don't know what it was like when uh you were a kid but when i was a kid there wasn't this polarization between people that were conservative and people that were liberal like you could hang out and talk to each other you didn't they didn't hate each other they just thought the other person was a fool for having a different opinion than them. But there wasn't hate like there is today. Well, here's the way you got to look at it. This is that when you used to vote, you would go inside a place and they would shut the curtains and you would vote and that was your fucking business. Yep. It's nobody else's business. So like, you know, it's like, you know, I'm for anybody that's doing good. if you're doing good and you're not hurting somebody go man but you know I'm not for cheating and you know how about a little morality and integrity and what you're saying and doing that would be nice it would be nice it's never been that way it's never been that way I mean in the 60's when I was a hippie I mean people think that this is like really bad no it was really bad when fucking Russia had missiles in Cuba and it was really bad when kids with long hair were getting shot at Kent State it was really the separation of adults and kids You know, there was a change that was happening. And of course the change happened and all my generation did was get to wear blue jeans to work That about all we accomplished Well the change was because it was the first generation that realized that the war they were being sold was bullshit Yeah. You know, the people that were involved in World War I and World War II, they thought they were stopping the world from an evil dictator taking over and just ruining the world. That's what we were. In World War II, the United States was fighting Hitler. You can't get a more evil person that's leading an army that you want to fight against than that guy, right? So everybody felt like that was a just war. We came back from that war victorious. America had national pride. We did it. We're the good guys. And then all of a sudden we're in Vietnam. Like what the fuck are we doing in Vietnam? It didn't make any sense. Well, back up, Joe. What do you think the Civil War was fought about? The Civil War? Yeah. well slavery was a big one no no no ports ports they fought it was fought over ports the port in savannah georgia was the biggest port in america and the ports in boston new york were struggling and the north said hey why don't you guys send some of that our way you guys got more than you can handle. And they said, fuck you, no. No, we're not sending you any of our stuff. And they just kind of went, well, then fuck you. We're going to come down and take it. But how are we going to get the American people to get behind that? Slaves. We'll say it's to free the slaves. Really? Yeah, I have a house in the South. and that's what it was about. It was about the ports. Slavery was just an excuse because nobody cared about black people, north or south. Wow. So you think that if they had just spread the wealth a little bit that that would not have happened and slavery would have still continued? Don't you think that – I mean there was already a distaste of slavery because it wasn't ubiquitous in the north. But it was. In the North it was? Yeah. I mean, Lincoln had slaves. Right back then but not in the 1860s when they were fighting the Civil War He was president Really He had slaves when he was fighting in the war Yeah I wasn aware of that Yeah A lot of people in the North Shore you know they weren at they hadn spun it to be so cruel as the South was apparently Well, there was more in the South, right, because of plantations and – Yeah. So here it is. Abraham Lincoln never personally owned slaves. This is according to Perplexity, which is our AI sponsor, which is always very accurate. Either before or during his presidency, according to mainstream historical scholarship, claims that he had slaves through inheritance or marriage come from fringe or highly disputed sources and are not accepted by most professional historians. That's me. Lincoln was born in Kentucky Raised in Indiana and Illinois All as a non-slave owner Working as a laborer, a lawyer And a politician He was a really good wrestler too Being related to slaveholders Did not legally make those Enslaved people his property And the best documented homes Lincoln himself maintained in Illinois and Washington Employed free servants Not slaves Okay where are the ideas from? I'll call him for a second. Let me stop for a second. You can call it what you want. Free servants, call it what you want. Well, they were free and they were getting paid. It means like you said you had a housekeeper. It was still a minstrel show no matter how you got it. Okay. Some modern writers and websites argue Lincoln inherited or ordered – this is where the idea Lincoln had slaves came from. So websites argued Lincoln inherited or ordered the sale of slaves via the Todd estate. These claims hinge on a small number of contested documents and are rejected by most specialists in Lincoln studies. There you go. Well, it's interesting that the – The fact that we're even talking about it. Well, it's kind of crazy how recent it was. That's what's really crazy. Oh, yeah. It wasn't that long ago. Two people ago. People lived to be 100. Yeah. 1865 is roughly two people ago. Yeah. That's fucking crazy. Well, I know. I bet you when you were in school, you thought World War II was ancient history. Oh, yeah, which is nuts because I was in high school in the 80s, right? So World War II ended in 45, which is nuts. Yeah. I thought it was ancient history. I remember sitting in ended in 45 which is nuts like yeah i thought it was ancient history i i remember sitting in in history class in eighth grade going what do i need to know this shit for you know and i was born in 51 so it was only like three or four years and the war had just ended that's nuts and but to me it was ancient history isn't that crazy because essentially what we're talking about now is like the 1980s yeah well that that to us the 1980s like to kids today that must be like oh my god fucking dinosaur days yeah no internet fucking big old tube tvs it was a giant box yeah a big one was 14 inches yeah yeah yeah i i uh i remember being at home once And I told my dad, I said, hey, dad, the people down the street have got like a changer and it's got a cord on it. And he goes, I got a changer, too. Change it to channel four. I was the changer. Yeah, I remember we used to have a pliers because the thing got stripped. So you had to change the channel with the plier. You didn't know what channel it was until it got CBS. All right. So we're on five. Go like this. Then you're on ABC. Go like that. You're on NBC. Yeah. Yeah. I remember the day Cable came out. I was like, this is fucking bananas. Yes. Look at all these channels. Well, I remember seeing a home box office. Oh, yeah. It was like, what on earth? I even remember what movie it was. It was some The Miracle Man or something. And I thought, what is this? It's past 11 o'clock and this movie is just starting. Yeah. Do you remember in the old days when the TV would sign off and the American flag would wave and it would just play music and then it would just go. Well, the Indian would always show up. Yeah. The Indian would always show up and it had like this. Yep. And then it would go to nothing. They would stop broadcasting at night. Yeah, 11. Yeah. 11. Those were wild times. Cable changed everything. Home box office changed everything because when HBO came around, all of a sudden you got to see stand-up comedy uncensored. I remember the first time I watched Sam Kinison on HBO I was like this is fucking crazy Yeah Like I had never seen anything like that before Like wild raw comedy on TV Did you ever know Sam Kinison? No, I never met him. I did. What was he like? Wild. Yeah, I would imagine. He was very unpredictable, very, you know, he was Sam Kinison. You know his story, how he became that way? No. He got hit by a truck when he was a little kid. he was real normal like a normal kid his brother bill wrote about it his brother bill wrote a great book called my brother sam and um he said that sam was just a normal kid got hit by a truck got really fucked up bad brain injury and then from then on wild and reckless just like impossible to control just a maniac well you could imagine i mean you know that's i don't know about you But if you grew up in the 80s, you know, our parents used to just tell us, go outside. Yeah. Yep. Go outside and we'll see you at dark. Yep. And, you know, I could go. I was, I don't know, 10, 9, riding my bike all over Seymour. Yep. Which is where I grew up. And just nobody kept an eye on us. Nope. Nobody, you know. And nobody had any idea of knowing where you are. either. It was just your responsibility to come home. There was no way to find you. It was funny. They had to remind us that, remind our parents that you have kids. There was a thing that said, it's 10 o'clock. Do you know where your children are? Yeah, because a lot of people didn't. They didn't. And people would yell. They would open up the window and yell their kid's name. Billy! You just hear it in the neighborhood. Someone like rolling down their window, rolling up the window and just screaming out the kid's name to tell him to come home and hoping the kid was in earshot i remember uh somebody in my neighborhood i would hear every night at dark henry and i'd hear it and go i better go home it's time for henry earl to go home i better get home What was it like when MTV rolled around? I didn't, I mean, I liked it. How long had you been performing by then? Oh I was in my first band when I was 11 Wow You know a little garage band with a bunch of kids playing along with records And then I was in a band called The Crepe Soul. Think about this, Joe. I was 14 years old playing in bars. Wow. And my parents were cool with it. It's like, where's John? He's playing tonight. Playing what? He said, he's in the Crepe Soul. Oh. And it was me and this black kid named Fred Booker. And we shared the vocals. And we would do, you know, we would do songs like, pull strings and I'll kiss your lips. I'm your puppet. I'm your puppet. And we had, you know, neighbor jackets on. And I was cute back then. And so, you know, it was great for me. I would have done it for free because I was 14 years old making out with 18, 19-year-old girls. Wow. I know. It was great. Are you kidding me? And then we played at every fraternity, every sorority. And I came home with maybe, you know, over the weekend I might make 60 bucks. I was the best-dressed kid in school. Wow. That Mellencamp kid is just a dressed-up hood. That's all he is. So did you know back then that you were going to be a professional musician, or were you doing it for fun? Did you think it was going to be a career? I thought, here's what I thought, I'm either going to be a professional football player, a professional boxer, or a singer. That was my choices. You boxed? Yeah. Yeah? I'll whip your ass right now. At 74. Is that why you were getting in so many fights? Yeah, I liked it. Wow. I liked it. I liked the contact. Didn't like getting whipped every goddamn night, but, you know, it happens. Did you have any professional boxing matches? No, but my son, I'm going to brag on my son, was National Golden Gloves champ twice. Wow. And then he played football for Duke. and he was, you don't mess with HUD. Don wanna mess with HUD He 31 now When did the music thing really start taking off for you Well I went to college and I got a degree in broadcasting technology which at that time was pretty And I would they would have dances at college and bands playing. And I would sit there in the audience and go, I can do this better than that. I know I can. And so as soon as I got out of college, I got into a band called the Mason Brothers, which I have so many funny stories. Like I said, I'm so lucky. I got into a band called the Mason Brothers and we played every weekend and I was a barroom singer. You know, I never wrote any songs or anything like that. You want to hear a funny story about the Mason Brothers, how the Mason Brothers ended? Yeah. This is good. The guy that ran the band, I was just a singer. And the guy that ran the band was a guy named Dave. And Dave talked to the booker. And we had a gig on a riverboat up and down the Ohio River. And it was a fraternity show. and we had an old Plymouth and a U-Haul on the back and we get there and the guys in the fraternity, Joe, are so fucking mad at us. Dave failed to realize that there was a time change between Seymour and Cincinnati, which is on the Ohio River. So all these fraternity guys are going, where the hell have you guys been? You're an hour late. So it really pissed me off. I go, Dave, God damn it. If you're going to run the band, you've got to keep track of this shit. He said, oh, don't worry about it. And as time went on, and so, and you had to do four sets back then. You know, four 45-minute sets, which was plenty of time for Dave to get drunk. and he would drink, and he was the bass player. And the fraternity guys already hated us, because we weren't really any good bass player and the fraternity guys already hated us you know because we weren't really any good anyway so dave's playing and he's going along really good and he was putting on a show and he leaned back and man overboard he fucking fell off the ship and they had to stop him fishing Oh my God. So I got so fucking mad at him that he said, I said, Dave, I'm going to quit. This is it for me. I'm done with this crap. And then Dave said, no, John, give us one more chance. And then the drummer quit because he went to medical school. And then the guitar player was still in high school. Wow. And he was my mom and dad's paper boys. And so Dave said, John, let me put the band back together. I'll get some new guys. And I'd call him up and I'd go, Dave, how's the band going? And he'd go, oh, it's going great, man. It's going really great. I said, good. I said, who are these new guys? He goes, you'll see when you get there. Don't worry about it. I got it covered. I said, oh, you mean like you did with the time change? and he goes no no no these guys are good so I show up for this gig I haven't even rehearsed with these guys not even rehearsed with them but it was the same shit you know because we were just a cover band and I was just a bar room singer so you know if you want to see taking care of business I'm your guy you know and take care of business you know who can't do that so I show up Dave has recruited two sophomores in high school who couldn't play their instruments at all the drummer was like it's like boom boom crack asshole boom boom crack that's all you got to do and he was the whole fucking time and and so the show was about half over i just said i looked at Dave and I go, you're the lead singer. And I just left. Because it was just too embarrassing. And then I got I went to New York And I was afraid Joe I was afraid I mean I from a fucking town of 18 people and I'd been to Chicago once. I'd never been on an airplane. And so I flew to New York because I came into some money. That's another funny story. I came into some money, and I went there, And I was afraid to come out of my hotel room for the first two days because New York in the early 70s was broke. And there were prostitutes and pimps and everything everywhere, you know, and homeless people, which reminds me. You guys got a lot of homeless guys here. There's a few. It's not as bad as L.A. Well, that isn't. You can say that about anything, Joe. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot better than it was during the pandemic. During the pandemic, they allowed them to do the camping on the street thing. So you'd go down like Cesar Chavez and you'd see like 15, 20 tents where people were just hanging out and people were trying to jog and ride their bikes past them. It was pretty bad. But a former mayor cleaned it up. And they have pretty good programs here to get people into housing. Everybody here must love – I'm not putting Austin down. I'm just – I played here about three years ago. But everybody must love graffiti here. And that's the thing about graffiti. I don't mind if you want to destroy somebody else's property. But at least do something original because it all looks the same. You know, it's big letters and outlined in – it's done in black and outlined in yellow. And it's the same fucking shit you see in New York or Los Angeles. It's the same. If you're going to be an artist, be an artist. Well, a lot of these guys are just tagging. They're just like sister gang affiliation or whatever it is, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. But it wasn't that way the first time I came to Austin. No. Well, I think all cities have deteriorated, but I think Austin's deteriorated quite a bit less. We found out recently that Skid Row in L is 50 blocks 5 Right now Right now 50 blocks of homeless people just living on the streets And, like, almost impassable. Like, if you've ever been down Skid Row, it's fucking— I went there once accidentally, and this was in the 2000s. We were filming Fear Factor downtown in L.A., and I took a wrong turn and wound up in Skid Row, and I was like, I couldn't believe it was real. It was like a zombie movie. And that's – I mean it's a fraction. So you decided on Fear Factor. You go stay in here for three days and you win. Three days and do no coke. Yeah, you can do three days with no meth and you win. Yeah. It was sobering. And then we looked up the history of Skid Row. And the reason why it's like that is they would take people out of Hollywood and Beverly Hills and homeless people then, and they would put them in Skid Row and force them to stay there. And they sort of built it as a place where they could deposit vagrants and homeless people. Well, there is a law in this country called vagrancy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not very enforced. Well, it would be – let me tell you something. that if you grew up in Seymour, Indiana, it was enforceable. Right. Because if you stand uptown too long, which is all kids did back then, the cops come up and go, hey, you've been here for three hours. We've been timing you. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. New Year's resolutions are great and all, but sometimes I don't want to upend my entire life to create a new and improved me. If you're feeling the same way, I've got a tip for you to let go of those big New Year's expectations and start small. Focus on one thing that's been weighing you down lately. Maybe you want to stress less about what you can't control or put less pressure on yourself at work or reconnect with an old friend. Whatever goal you have, BetterHelp can help you get there. Therapy in general is a great way to discover more about yourself from an unbiased, outside perspective. It can really help take a weight off your shoulders. BetterHelp makes connecting with a therapist straightforward and simple. And with a network of thousands of fully licensed therapists, they can connect you with the right one like they have for millions across the globe. According to those same people, BetterHelp works great too. Their live sessions have an average of 4 out of 5 rating so do yourself a favor and try BetterHelp BetterHelp makes it easy to get matched online with a qualified therapist Sign up and get 10 off at betterhelp slash J That's better H-E-L-P dot com slash J-R-E. Move on. You want to keep a nice clean town, that's how you do it. But if you let it go long enough, it will be like Skid Row. I mean, and I think that what we're saying, like the documentary, What was the hotel again that won – the Hotel Cecil. The documentary was about the Hotel Cecil, which was a beautiful hotel in downtown LA that's now a fucking disaster area. But it's in that whole area and they just – they couldn't figure out a way to deal with the homeless problem. But they didn't want it messing up the beauty and glamour of Hollywood. So every time they would find homeless people, they would just ship them to downtown. Downtown LA is really the only downtown of any major city that I've ever been to where nobody wants to go. Downtown New York is fucking downtown. Like, holy shit, we're downtown. Look at all the restaurants. Look at all the shops. Yeah, but it wasn't that way in the 70s. Right. The first time I went there, it was just like, if you went to Times Square, it was frightening. The first time I went to New York was to fight. I was fighting in a martial arts tournament in 1980. It had to be – I guess it was 85 or 86 and it was bad. We went through Times Square and I was like, oh my god. I couldn't believe people lived like this. I remember the first time driving through it. I couldn't believe how big it was. I was like, this is crazy. It was so – because Boston where I was from was a big city I thought. It was nothing compared to New York. I'm like, this is nuts. I couldn't believe how many streets there were and how many buildings there were and how tall they were. But just the seediness of it was so strange to me. You know, the peep shows and all the weird people. And I was a kid back then. I was probably, you know, 18. It was very strange. It was frightening. Yeah. Yeah. Like I was – I don't know. I probably got sidetracked. But the first time I went there, I didn't leave my hotel room. I was in a Holiday Inn on 57th Street and I just kind of peeked through the curtains and looked and I thought, I can't go out there. I mean I was coming off agoraphobia and here I'm in New York because I have a meeting with some record company people and they liked a demo. agoraphobia agoraphobia and here I'm in New York because I have a meeting with some record company people and they liked a demo So let's go back to that so you were your fucked up drunk friend you quit him how do you get back into music after that? Oh Dave? No I got my first record deal the first guy I called was Dave no he was he was a great bass player he was a great bass player did he get his shit together before then no nope still not no no I got funny stories about Dave and Max's is he still around yeah he's a professor now he found God and all this stuff oh wow he's a professor at Vincent's University and he teaches he's a professor wow what does he teach music oh wow and no he was really a handsome, really good bass player. Really, really, really, really good, but he just, you know, you know, Dave and we were 20 years old, 22 years old, you know. What the fuck did we know about anything? Yeah. Nothing. Nothing. So when you left Dave and you left that band, what happened next? What was like the big break for you? I never really had a big break well something must have happened it was a slow climb yeah it was a very slow climb yeah I I got a record deal and of course being me at that age at 22 I went out to California and I met with a guy named Mike Maitland who hated my new record but said I had great possibilities. And I told him. I just stood up and I said, Motherfucker, you're an old man. What do you know about rock music? He must have been 40. And of course I got dropped immediately. I was on MCA and I got dropped immediately. But there were a couple people at MCA who believed in what I was doing and so they helped me along And then I got introduced to Rod Stewart manager and I moved to England for two years made a record and lived with the whole band in Chelsea punk was just starting and just starting i mean you know the clash and and the sex pistols i mean they were brand new bands wow and there i am with an acoustic guitar going i need a lover that won't however that song became number one in australia and uh And so Australia was ahead of us with televising rock bands. And they had a whole bunch of rock shows. And I had the number one record, album, and single in Australia. And couldn't fill up a bar in Bloomington. Wow. Couldn't. Nobody would come and see me. So anyway, I went to Australia. And then a girl covered I Need a Lover. and she had a big hit with it. I mean, mine went to like 30 or something like that, but hers went to like two of that song. And that's how it all started for me. That was the very first thing. Wow. With some girl covering one of my songs. And you were living in England? I lived in England for two years. and they had the National Front there at the time. I don't know if you know what that is. The National Front was, if you're not English, get out of our country. A couple guys in my band got beat up because they heard, you know, some of the National Front guys heard their accent and it wasn't English. so it was like dangerous to even go to the movies really keep your fucking mouth shut your head down what year was this around 70s 77 76 wow yeah yeah the national front was you know they were like all a bunch of skinhead guys and violent and didn did not want any foreigners in their country at all And even Americans you know So, yeah, you had to keep your eye, you know, I learned real quick to keep your head down and your mouth shut. Wow. And so you got out of there because of that? No, I got out of there because I got mad at the, I know it's hard to believe that I got mad at somebody. But I got mad at the manager because I never could get the cocksucker on the phone, you know. And then I came back to the United States and he had a record deal based on the number one record in Australia. And I used to go, well, we have a number one record in Australia. And they would look at me and go, not many Australians in the United States, John. So, you know, and then it just kind of built. But see what happened, and I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I didn't give a fuck. I got to the point where it was like, I don't give a fuck. You know, do what the fuck you want. I didn't want to be Johnny Cougar, which is how they made me start. Whose idea was that, to turn you into John Cougar? It was Johnny to start off with. Johnny Cougar. Tony DeFreeze managed me, David Bowie, Lou Reed, Mata Hoople. You remember all these bands? Oh, Lou Reed for sure, yeah. Yeah, anyway. David Bowie, obviously. Yeah. Rod Stewart, obviously. Yeah. Same guy. No, Rod Stewart was different. Different manager. Different manager. But he was English, too. so uh it's hard to argue with someone that's got that kind of talent right well it's hard to argue uh when you're 22 years old with a 45 year old man who has had success right yeah like i signed away my publishing and stuff this is an old story but i mean an old story from everybody from the Rolling Stones to you name it. Prince. If you were black, it was like, here's a new car and a shiny ring and some money. Yeah. And so I remember the, I was getting ready to leave England and I heard that Gaff had had good news for me in America So that the reason I went home And the good news was that he just got a deal for me on Mercury Records. And then so I went back to the United States. and we started making records and just kept plowing away. And the critics hated me. They fucking hated me because of Johnny Cougar. And Main Man came up with that name, Johnny Cougar, and his excuse was his name was David Jones, and I called him David Bowie, and look how well that worked out. and I'm 22 and I'm going but I don't like this name and they go well you don't have to you don't have to participate you can go back to Indiana if you want it was like well fuck you then I will and then I walked outside and thought for a minute I thought I guess I'm Johnny Cougar wow I hated it and they compared me to James Dean and Bruce and you know so the critics just hated that it was like you know he's so american he's so american you know yeah i was a fucking hillbilly fucking critics they're always going to be a problem yeah but you know what uh i learned stuff from some of the critics that were good like what well one of my best friends was a guy named Tim White, who was the editor of Rolling Stone and the editor of Billboard magazine, and he died a few years ago. And you want to hear some inside baseball? Sure. Tim and I talked every day. And Tim is as different as me, as you. Tim wore a bow tie, white bucks, you know, blue jeans, suit jacket every day. And he was the editor of Rolling Stone for a long time. And then he became editor of Billboard and he called me up and he said, I'm going to have to sign a deal. And then he became editor of Billboard, and he called me up, and he said, And then he became editor of Billboard, and he called me up, and he said, I'm going to have to sign a deal with SoundScan. I said, so? I didn't know what that was. He goes, John, you don't understand the ramifications of signing a deal with SoundScan. I said, well, what are they? He goes, you'll be out of business. I go, why do you say that? He goes, because now the way the billboard charts work, is this getting too inside baseball? No, not at all. The way the charts work is that if you get played in Indianapolis and you get played in New York, it counts as one play. New York counts as one play. Indianapolis counts as one play. A play is a play. When SoundScan came in, they changed it so it's like the number one record of the week. So if you got a play in New York, that was worth five points. If you got a play in Indianapolis, that was worth a half a point. So what does that mean? That means that people who grew up in St. Louis and where rock took place, all of a sudden you know where I got played all the time the points didn't amount to shit but what did urban stations urban stations played what rap so do you remember when all of a sudden rap music took over it wasn't because these guys were so great. I'm not saying they were bad. I'm just saying that it was because of SoundScan. And my friend Tim knew this was going to happen. As soon as I signed this deal with SoundScan, and there was a magazine called Radio and Records at the time who was rivaling Billboard. And if Tim hadn't have bought SoundScan, Radio and Records would have bought them which would have made them the premier record company because they were the most modern and so SoundScan changed everything so I sure that you remember that there was a time when you knew every song that was number one Then all of a sudden you woke up one day and you didn't know, what the, how does this song become number one? But the way that it was before SoundScan, each song had to work its way up the charts. so if you had like you know let's say 20 plays i'm just throwing out low numbers but if you had 20 plays uh that got added to the 20 plays that you got the next week so now you have 40 plays so you might move up from 36 to 31 but joe rogan in boston was hearing the fucking songs as they move up. Oh, I heard this new song. You talk to your friend. And they said, yeah, I heard that song. And then all of a sudden the song would build and build and build and build and build and build and Michael Jackson would be number one or whoever. And once SoundScan took over, if you were in a rock band, the record companies said, well, fuck this. We're not even going to advertise in Indianapolis anymore. the biggest the biggest numbers are R&B stations and they're playing rap and that's what we're gonna service those people because back then there was payola and all that stuff going on so there was like no money coming into Indianapolis all of a sudden where they used to be It was all going to New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, to all these R&B stations. And then what was that thing called when you could, like, download records for nothing? Napster? Yeah. Yeah. And then that started. And then that really put us out of it, put all rock guys out of it. If you check the Billboard charts right now, I bet you you'd be hard-pressed to find two rock bands in the top. Rock bands right now just in general are almost nonexistent in terms of like new bands. It's really weird. There used to be so many rock bands. And rock and roll is still a very popular form of music when you listen to the older stuff That why I decided I don mean to plug myself but they have been asking me because I got tired of going on tour and being a cheerleader which is what I was Let's do a rounding hit of Small Town. I was born, you know, and everybody would stand up and sing. I was playing to 20,000 people and everybody was drunk. And I was just kind of the cheerleader, you know, the human jukebox. For people's good time. Yeah, giving them the opportunity. And I just thought, you know, I'm here to be a musician. This is not being a musician. This is being a fucking clown. I don't want to be a clown. So I started playing in theaters, which pissed everybody off. I said, and you know, when you come to one of my shows, and this has been for the last 20 years I've been doing this. You come to one of my shows in a theater that says, please recognize. Back then, pull that sucker up close to your face. What? The microphone. Oh. Otherwise we're barely here. You're very soft spoken already. How's that? There we go. I am. And? I am soft spoken. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. You know why? Why? Because I'm deaf. Are you really? Oh, from all the singing? Yeah. All the music? Yeah. Oh, every rock star is deaf. I'm deaf. No one knew shit about hearing protection back then. No, I'm deaf. I can't hear. All my friends in bands and all my friends that are hunters, deaf. Can't hear. Yeah. Guns and loud music. Yeah. My kids would love it because they could walk up and say shit behind my back. Like, I heard that. I got three girls and two boys. And how many kids do you got? Three. Three girls. Girls are at about 12, you lose them, and then about 21, they come back. I haven't lost them. You haven't? Fortunately. No, no. We're close. Yeah. I have 15, 17, and 28. I kind of lost mine, you know, it was like, but now it's kind of like, but I do have a daughter that's really sick. She's not fucking fine. Oh, that sucks, I'm sorry to hear that. She's got, she got cancer in the brain Oh Jesus And she suffering right now But that kid used to call me up and I'd go, Teddy, you can have a thought without asking me. If it's, you know, figure it out yourself. You don't have to ask me everything, you know. But I love having kids. I do too. It has made me a much nicer person, that's for sure. Yeah, me too. But I've stayed close with them even through the teenage years, luckily. But, you know, I worked hard at it. I was on tour all the time. Yeah. Well, that's one of the things that I did when we moved to Texas almost six years ago now was that I decided to be home a lot more. In the beginning when here I was still touring a lot, I would do weekends. I'd go do shows, but now I hardly ever. Now I have my own comedy club, so I'm in town all the time. What do you think of stand-up now? I love it. It's a great time for stand-up. You think? Yeah, yeah. You don't have to, like, worry about crossing the line? Yeah, you do. Yeah, yeah, you do. You'll cross the line, but not with the people that you care about, you know? You cross the line for people that are looking to be offended. well which is a lot of people yeah so they're going to be mad let them be mad you just can't pay attention that's the thing it's like I tell all the comics like stay out of the comments don't read anything about yourself and you'll be alright just the audience is what matters is the audience laughing I've never googled myself good for you good I've never googled myself ever because I don't give a fuck well that's a good practice to keep. Where were we? So we were talking about how they stuck you with the Johnny Cougar name, you're in New York City, that's kind of where we left it off. I was trying to figure out, like, what was the MTV days like, and when did it, like, really start cracking? Pull that microphone close up to you. When did it really start cracking? Do you know John Sykes? No. He was one of the guys who started MTV. Okay. And I remember calling him up and I didn't know him. This was like 1981, 82. and I remember calling him up, and I didn't know him. and I remember calling him up, and I didn't know him. This was like 1981, 82. And like I said, you know, it was like all you really saw of guys in rock bands were the album covers, you know, maybe on Midnight Special or something like that. or Don Kirshner's rock concert or something like that. But then with MTV going all the time, and not very many people made videos. But see, I was making videos because I had a hit in Australia. And like I said, Australia was way ahead of us. So it was the video that I just made in a club in London that was shown that made that record number one in Australia. and so when MTV started there wasn't that many people making videos but I was so they didn't have any content so they played me all the fucking time just because nobody else had videos yet right people hadn't caught up yet and I remember sitting with, I can't remember the guy, some English guy, and I said, what is this MTV thing? He goes, I don't know, the record company told me. I can't remember the guy's name. He was really a good songwriter. But you don't hear of him much anymore. Anyway, I had a conversation. Neither one of us knew what was going on. And then I met John, and I was the first, and John and I got along great, I was the first promotion that MTV did and we gave away a pink house. Oh, wow. And you had to register and do all this stuff and there's a funny story that goes with that. So Sykes and somebody else came to Indiana to find a house in Bloomington that they were going to buy, and then they were going to do a show and I did an ad where I went and you can win a house and we going to paint the mother pink you know And that what they did Except the house they bought Joe was on a chemical dump Oh, no. But I didn't know it, and they didn't know it because they're from New York. And so when I found out, I called them up. I said, guys, we can't give away this house. it's on a fucking chemical dump because RCA was dumping chemicals out in this field that was right next to the house that we bought you know and back then in the early 80's there wasn't much legislation about where you could dump that kind of stuff so they had to buy another house which they weren't happy about so they had to buy two houses couldn't sell the other one, gave it away and Sykes to this day I'll tease him about it and he'll go oh we took that off the books years ago cheers but it it it went from walking down the street to nobody know who the fuck you are to walking down the street and everybody knew who you were everybody I mean it got to at the height of MTV you couldn't go I couldn't go anyplace did you get the agoraphobia before that oh yeah oh boy so that probably just made it way worse right no actually again Joe lucky it helped me get over it it helped me and you know like I I believe that all growth takes place in the chemicals inside our body. So I was growing still because I grew up in public. Right. I mean, I literally grew up. When I got my first record deal, Joe, I had never written a song. Wow. Never written a song. They asked me, well, play some of the songs you've written. I was like, I don't write no fucking songs. I'm a barroom singer. I sing other people's songs. But he wanted a song. What do you want me to write for? Dylan's writing great songs. You hadn't written anything? Nothing. Wow. So when did you start writing? After you got a record deal? Yeah. Wow. But it turns out you a great writer That crazy And I have dyslexia which means I can read You should see my songwriting books It's absolutely terrible. It looks like, you know, I have to have somebody now. After I write a song, I have to give it to somebody right away and let them copy it and I'll read it to them so that we can read what the fuck, you know, what I wrote. Because songwriting is not what people think it is. But anyway, back to MTV. It just blew up and you couldn't go anywhere. I couldn't. I would walk down the street and all I did was sign autographs and shake hands and I didn't like it at all. Well, that'd be very weird. yeah I mean it was like you know you've been in rock bands since you were 13 nobody gave a shit and then all of a sudden they did and you know it was the baby boomers coming of age and you know I was very fortunate but unappreciative so when you first started writing songs what was your process when you knew how to write songs how did you well I figured out just don't forget the critics hated me already? oh yeah they hated Johnny Cougar they fucking hated him and I didn't like him much either because we weren't any good you know we just weren't we did not write songs we did not do anything so I figured how do you reach a lot of people by being on the radio so keep it simple stupid so I would write like I had a song called Hurt So Good do you remember that song? sure yeah Hurt So Good I wrote that in the shower and I came out real quick and I wrote it down and then I had somebody write it down and I remembered the melody and I sang it to a tape machine and I got so many funny stories I was down in Criteria which was in Florida in Miami And, you know, it was the early 80s. And so we had this, and Criteria had five or six studios, and, you know, there were, like, I don't know, all kind of bands. The Bee Gees were over here, and this band was over here, and I don't know. And we had the studio blocked out, but we wouldn't show up. We had other things to do. there was a place called Scaramouche that had the prettiest girls you ever saw in your life. So it was like, we did not have time to go to the studio because we had been up till daybreak at Scaramouche. You know, and so I was spending a lot of fucking money by now. And it was like, maybe, you know, at the time, a half a million dollars, and I had three songs done. whoa that's exactly right and I'd had a couple hits I had I Need a Lover Ain't Even Done With the Nine and This Time I Think and so those songs were like got into the top 20 anyway the record company came down and said Mellencamp what the fuck you know you're spending all this money and And if you don't get on with it, we're going to drop you from the label. And I went, you can't drop me from the fucking label. Are you kidding me? I'm just starting. Well, we want to come down and hear what you've done. I said, well, come on down. I played him three songs, the three I had done in six weeks. Anyway, I played him the three songs. They hated him. Which songs were they? Jack and Diane. Oh, God. Hurt So Good. Oh, God. And Hand to Hold On To. Oh, my God. They hated those? Oh, they hated them. They said- Oh, wow. Hurt so good. Hurt so good. Oh, God. And hand to hold on to. Oh, my God. They hated those? Oh, they hated them. They said. Oh, wow. They said, John, this is, they're too rough. They're too raw. And what is this sound in Jack and Diane? It's not even, what is that sound? Well, the sound was I would walk by the BG studio and they had just invented drum machines. And the Bee Gees were using it to keep time. Because, you know, most drummers, they speed up. You know, they start the song at this tempo and all of a sudden they're like, by the end of the song it's like, I can't keep up with you, God damn it, slow down. So the Bee Gees were using it to keep time. And I heard this sound And so I knew the engineer. His name was Albie Gluten. And I said, Albie, can I borrow that machine? He goes, yeah, because we're not going to be in the studio for a week. So we were doing a song called Jack and Diane that just was not working out because the drummer kept speeding up. And when you're trying to keep it simple, stupid, simple is hard. because if you make a little mistake, it's a big mistake now because there's not a bunch of shit covering up your mistake. Right. So I called up Mick Ronson. He was the guitar player for David Bowie. Remember Mick? No, I don't. Joe! I don't. God damn it! Sorry. Anyway, Mick was a great guy. he was Bowie's guitar player when Bowie was great when he had Ziggy Stardust and all that stuff and Ronson was an English guy and he'd call me Johnny all the time and you know and he said Johnny maybe you should put those baby rattles on there and I go what he goes you know that drum machine thing that makes that noise just to keep time and I said okay we'll try it so we put on this and it was perfect timing Perfect So the idea was is that we take that drum machine out when we get everything We'll take it out. And now the drummer had to play in time because that machine did not budge. That machine was perfect. It was a prototype of a drum machine. That's how new it was. It was a prototype. And it was the only one. They gave them the VGs to try it out and see how they liked it. And so we got it all together, and we took the drum machine out. Sounded like shit. But it sounded great with the drum machine. So I said, fuck it, we'll just leave the drum machine in. and it worked because nobody had ever heard that sound. And the record company didn't like that? Oh, they hated it. They hated that fucking sound. But that song was so good. Well, you know, and it's surprising to me that to this day how many people still love that song. It's a fucking great song. You know, and every time... What year was that? 1981. Wow. Wow. I was 14. So how old were you in 1980? 14. Yeah, high school. Yeah, you were there. Yeah. That's great. See, that's great. And I love hearing guys your age talk about it because it's just like, I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. And the fact that that song today, I had somebody tell me, one of the nicest things anybody said to me was that, John, there was Romeo and Juliet, there was Frankie and Johnny, and now there's Jack and Diane. And you've joined, those two kids have joined those people of importance in American culture. Think about it. Now, who would have fucking thought that some dumbass like me would write a fucking song as a child when I first started writing songs and create those two characters that made such an impression on everybody? The only other one I think about is Brenda and Eddie from Billy Joel Scenes from an Italian restaurant Yeah That another one Yeah Jack and Diane was fucking huge when I was in high school I can't believe the record company didn't like that. They didn't like Hand to Hold On To? Mm-mm. God! And they didn't like me. God. And they didn't like me. How could you be more wrong than Jack and Diane? The Jack and Diane was fucking huge. Joe, look at – I don't know that much about your career, but look at your career and look at what suits have said to you and how wrong they were. Well, the most successful thing that I've ever done, nobody had any input on at all, which is this. Well, there you go. Yeah, there's not a chance in hell anybody would have said, yeah, have unfiltered conversations for three hours with random people. And, you know, millions of people will listen and watch. No one would have believed it. But when we did it, we didn't do it for anybody else. But you were an actor before. Yeah. Well, I was a comic first. And then because I got a development deal, they gave me some money to be on a sitcom. So I did that. That sitcom got canceled. Then I did another sitcom that was kind of successful called News Radio. That got canceled. And then I wound up being on Fear Factor. Yeah. It's just a bunch of weird circumstances that a lot of luck, a lot of weird stuff happened. A lot of luck, yeah. Yeah, see, and you know what? I walk in my house sometimes and I look around and think, I get to fucking live here. Yeah. I get to fucking live here. I think that all the time, yeah. I get to live here and how lucky I am to have had that kind of success from such an horrible beginning as Johnny Cougar. And, you know, to be able to, you know, do it. I've done what I wanted to do ever since I decided, fuck you guys. Yeah. After American Fool came out and those songs became hits, nobody has ever said shit to me about anything. Well, they realized they were wrong. Well those guys I sure are out of business And I have to kind of smile about the rock critics because it got to the point where I had such so many songs on the radio that they couldn ignore it anymore Right. You were undeniable. Yeah. And that's – you know what? That's the word I used to say. That's the key to success. That's the word I used to say to the guys and the men. We have to make the song undeniable. Yeah. Because if you give them an inch, they'll find a fucking reason not to do it. They definitely will. And there's good in that too. There's good in those people that hate. They're valuable. They can fuel you to greatness. They can fuel you to be better. Because if you know that there's people out there that are just going to fucking hate on you no matter what you do, and you just got to come up with something that, listen, this will be undeniable, then they'll still hate it. Look, I was watching a fucking interview yesterday where this lady was talking shit about the Beatles. She was talking about how she thinks the Beatles are terrible. And this lady was not particularly articulate. She wasn't interesting or compelling. She didn't seem very intelligent. But she was speaking with such authority about how she thought the Beatles were terrible. I was like, well, you're fucking wrong. You couldn't be more wrong. You couldn't be more wrong. They are one of the greatest bands in the history of the fucking known world. Yeah. Fact. But this lady was just going, which shows you, you cannot make everybody happy because some people don't want to be happy. They don't want to see good. You had four really talented people in that band. And it showed because some of the songs, hear me out. Some of the songs, it was good for my generation because we went from cartoons to rock and roll. So in a town where I was born lived a man who sailed the seas. It was a cartoon. Right, right. And the guy that produced Martin, the guy that produced the Beatles, up until that point, he made comedy records. Ah. Yeah. He made comedy records and cartoons. And so that's, at least that's my understanding. And he brought that to them, you know. So that's – at least that's my understanding. So that's – at least that's my understanding. And he brought that to them. And you have four guys writing songs. It's a lot better than John Mellencamp writing songs. I can tell you that. You know, so – Yeah. But my point is it's like you can't make everybody happy because everybody is not happy. And they don't want to be happy. I have said for years, I'm not for anybody anymore. If you're coming to my show, and this is when I started playing theaters, if you're coming to my show to hear all these hits, you're not going to. But that's why after 20 years, I'm going to go back out and I'm going to play nothing but hits for two and a half hours. That's how many hit records I've had. That's incredible. Yeah. It's going to be, you know, and now I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. Because I have not played I Need a Lover in 25 years on stage. So it's fresh. Yeah. It's a brand new song. Yeah. I'm going to be playing it in a way that nobody's ever imagined. Wait till if you come, if you come and see me, wait till you hear Jack and Diane. I have jammed it up and it's a soul song now. Wow. Yeah. there's a term for it, smash, a smash. What do they call it? Smash something. Anyway, we turned it into a soul song. I mean, what would it be like if Jack and Diane was a soul song? So you leave the melody the same, but you put the instruments around them differently. To make it interesting for you. Well, and to the audience, because when the chorus comes in, they're going to be singing that chorus. Right. Because if I play it now... He's trying to push that thing up to your face. If I play it now, you know, it's just usually me and the acoustic guitar. And it's good because a little ditty and I don't have to sing anymore. Right. They sing the whole song. Right. And I might go, oh, yeah, and that's it. And then the audience sings it, which is great. Which is great. It's got to be really cool. I got to come see you live Are you in Texas at all I don know You don know When did you drop the Cougar? Because at first you were John Cougar Mellencamp, and I remember that. I was like, what is going on? Why does he have another name? It was confusing to me. Well, I was trying to, and I think I did it successfully. It was a good transition. I didn't, you know, I could call up somebody and go, hey, it's John Mellencamp. They wouldn't take my call. I could call back two seconds later and go, it's John Cougar, and they would take my call. So I figured this would have to be a slow change. Elvis Costello tried to do the same thing and didn't work. What was his real name? I don't remember. Oh, wow. That's not his real name. But, you know, he was tired of being Elvis Costello, and he went back to his real name. and people just wouldn't accept it. But with me, it was such a slow burn thing to get over. So, you know, again, what? Lucky. It was the first time that I recognized that artists were forced to change their name was you. I didn't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had no idea. I was a kid. Do you know that every fucking movie star that we ended up watching on those black and white things, that's not any of their real names. They're all changed. They're all changed. You think Rock Hudson was his real name? Sounds good. Yeah, it sounds great. Now, yeah, somebody decided they wanted to come up with a catchier name, which is interesting for a guy like Arnold Schwarzenegger. It kept his real name as bizarre as it was and hard to pronounce. Yeah, yeah. And I just saw him smashing the president. Yeah, he's always smashing somebody. I think he's bored. He needs to get back and run. He was a great governor. He really was. He did a really good job with California. California is a fucking mess now. When you transitioned to John Cougar Mellencamp and then eventually – like how long were you John Cougar Mellencamp before you became John Mellencamp again? I think the last John Cougar Mellencamp record was a record it was called Scarecrow And it had Small Town on it. It had Small Town on it. It had five hit records. Can you imagine? It had five fucking hit records off that one album. Pretty amazing. Yeah. Lucky. I had never written a fucking song. That's what's crazy. Yeah, never written a song. So I grew up in public. And if you listen to my songs now, so much more mature than those young. I got so sick of it that I wrote a song called Pop Singer in like 90, 91. Never wanted to be no pop singer, never wanted to sing no pop song. I remember that. Never wanted to, you know, have a manager hang out after the show. I just, you know, it was, I wanted to be a musician and not a clown, which, you know, if you remember back, Joe, and I'm not putting anybody down, but there were a lot of clownish guys from MTV. Sure. You know, that were like, what? Yeah. You know. And a lot of sexism and stuff from MTV and no black people for a while. You know, they didn't play any black people. They might play Michael Jackson, but other than that. Right. But they just didn't. And I remember talking to Sykes about it. Sykes, me, Don Henley, and somebody else went and did. They were going to drop MTV off a whole bunch of stations, and we got on a plane and went to all these different stations that were going to drop MTV and talked to them why they couldn't do it, and it worked. Why were they dropping MTV? Too lewd. I want to tell you something else, young man. I want to tell you something else. I showed that by accident in a video and MTV wasn going to play the video Because you had a tattoo Yeah That hilarious Yeah because I had a tattoo That's hilarious. I know. Oh, my God. It's so funny when you think about what music is like now, and then especially in the late 80s when hip-hop really took off and then gangster rap took off. Well, and now you know why, because we're talking about SoundScan and stuff. That's how all that happened. And my deceased friend, Tim White, who I love dearly, told me it was going to happen. And I just sat back and went, I can't believe that this is right. Wow. I can't believe that that can happen. You know, rock is too important to the culture, too important, you know. and there's a lot better songwriters than me and we all got 86'd I mean like the fucking Rolling Stones just put out a new album and I never heard it you never heard it I saw them live a couple of years ago here they played at the Circuit of the Americas it was fucking incredible it was like having an out of body experience it's like I couldn't believe they were really there I remember watching Mick Jagger on stage and my friend was talking to me and I was watching him and he's like, isn't this fucking incredible? I was like, I can't, I can't believe it's really him. It's like they are so iconic. And here he is in his fucking 80s just jamming. The guy brings two trailers, two whole trailers that are just gym equipment. Yeah. Everywhere he goes. Works out every day. every year we started Farm Aid in 1985 and every year because you have at Farm Aid you have a press conference in the beginning and then I don't go on until like 9 o'clock so I got all day I do half the day Neil can I use your gym equipment because he's got a trailer like you would haul groceries and couches and shit, and it's full of gym equipment. Can I use yours? So I use his, not his weights so much, but his, you know, his... It's full gym equipment. It's full gym equipment. Can I use yours? So I use his, not his weight so much, but his, you know, his, what do you call it? I call it the Laze Machine, where you can be lazy. Elliptical? Yeah, elliptical cross trainer. Hey, listen, it's better than nothing. Yeah. But, I mean, watching Mick in his 80s dancing around on stage and doing a, you know, two-hour concert with full energy is so impressive. it's so inspirational that this guy still loves it that much. I mean, he wasn't phoning nothing in, you know. I mean, it was fucking him dancing, butting your lip, baby. I mean, it was full on. It was like, wow. It was amazing. And what I find amazing, and I don't know why I find it amazing, but I find it amazing that people relate to music in that fashion. because I didn't know that as a kid. I just thought, you know, I thought I'd make two records and that'd be done. That's why I stayed in Bloomington. I had a little bit of money. I didn't know how much more I'd have, you know, how much longer I was going to last. So let's try to, like, buy a little house. I talked to, I'm good friends with Bruce, and him and I both kind of just look at each other and go, Can you fucking believe it? Because he's from a real little shitty town in New Jersey. And we both just look at each other and go, fuck, can you believe it? It's unbelievable. Well, gratitude's an important thing. It's kind of co-opted today with a lot of, like, this spiritual movement. You know, people say it, and it kind of sounds hollow and fake. But real gratitude, real thankfulness for a life that you've been so lucky to have and I've been so lucky to have. It's very important. It's an amazing thing. I mean, how could you not look back at your life and not think, can you fucking believe it? Yeah, and the thing of it is is that I sometimes ask my audience, I go, where are you right now? And most of you probably say, I am at a John Mellencamp concert in Austin, Texas. And my answer is yes but also where you really are you on a fucking rock that going around the fucking sun that has been here for millions of fucking years And so we are only here for a blink of an eye. So stop worrying about everything so fucking much. It doesn't fucking matter. Don't beep your horn because the fucking guy in front of you didn't take off right when the light turned red. It's not that important. Don't take yourself so fucking seriously and try to have some humility. You know, that's what I hate about politics today. There's no fucking humility. How about some humility? I don't care what party you're with. I don't give a fuck. But show some humility and some, you know, respect for each other, which they just don't. Right. They just don't. It's terrible. Yeah, there's a lot of that. If we could get more people to recognize how brief and fleeting this moment alive is. It's so—well, I got it tattooed right here on my arm. And my grandmother told me this when she lived to be 100. and I would go over and I'd lay in bed with her when she was like 99, 98 and one day she said to me she goes, you know John if you don't stop this cussing and while living you're not going to get into heaven and I went, ah grandma she goes, yes you need to change your ways a little bit And I said, yeah, well, you'll get me into heaven. Don't worry about it. And she said, no. She said, you're going to find out real soon. Now listen, life is short even in its longest days. It certainly feels short when you look back, right? Oh, yeah. But just think about those words coming from a 100-year-old woman. Yeah. You know, life is short even in its longest days. Really the opposite end of the spectrum. Oh, yeah, life goes on. Right, right, right, right. So I wrote a song called Life is Short and I love playing it I love playing it because it really hits the nail on the head of you know getting How old did you say you were? 58. 58 years old. You're still a kid. You're still a kid. How old are you now? 74. Wow. Well, you look great. Thanks. Maybe we can go on a date tomorrow. Is singing and performing, is it different now? Do you appreciate it more now than when you were younger? Is it a different feeling? Because you've done so much and the scope of it is so big now in retrospect? Well, like I said, I'm really looking forward to going out and doing a Greatest Hits tour. I've never done one. And I can't even imagine thinking back to when I was like 35. That idea would be like, shut the fuck up. I'm not doing that. Right. But now at my age, it's kind of like, and I did a thing with Sean Penn, and Sean and I were talking, and he goes, Sean, just go do it, because I was on the fence about doing it. He goes, what's wrong with you? Yes, go do it. don't you think that if I could, like, show the best parts of my movies to people that I would do it? And I go, I don't know. He goes, yeah, because it's, you're really sharing something. Well, it's also not a whole lot of people have ever done it before, right? Not a whole lot of people have ever had the kind of hits that you've had. So the opportunity to go out there and do two and a half hours of fucking hits is amazing. And I have to, like I said, I walk in my house and I go, I can't believe I get to live here. And, you know, I feel good about, you know, I'm the only father in the world that does not encourage their kids to work. It's like, what do you want to go to work for? You know, my son graduated from Duke and it's just like, fuck that work stuff. Do what you want to do. You're 31 years old. You're handsome. You're 31 years old. He could beat anybody up in the room. But I think he getting to the age where he wants to get a job and I don want him to leave because he still lives on my property And it nice I love having him in there I love having Hud live with me. He doesn't live with me. He lives in a different house, a different building. But I love having him there because I know that I can pick up the phone and go, Hey, Hud, and he's there. And I'm telling you, having kids was one of the best things I ever did. It's interesting, too, because having a kid when you're in high school, a lot of people think is like a death sentence for your career. Well, it was a death sentence for my kid. You know, I was 18 years old. I was on drugs. You know, my idea of raising a kid back then when I was in college was throwing water balloons at her. That's all I knew. It was like, this is fun. You know, but it turned out, you know. But, yeah, I really enjoy my kids. And my dad told me that. He told me, have as many kids as you can because when you get older. Because, see, I had, I don't know about you, but I had seven of my best friends die in 18 months. Wow. Yeah, because they couldn't get off the party. they just couldn't get off the party because they were drunk all the time I mean if you drank Crown Royal every fucking day it's going to fuck up your liver 100% and that's what they did I mean you know except Tim, Tim had a heart attack Tim White the guy I was telling you about he died on an elevator ride from in New York from the ground floor to his office and by the time he got up there he was dead wow but he would call me up every day and go man my chest really hurts my back really hurts you know and i would go tim your dad died of at like 49 from heart disease don't you think you better go to the doctor i don't want to go and that that's what that's what most guys do they don't want to go to the fucking doctor yep Yeah. Yeah. But I do. Does the doctor tell you to stop smoking? All the time. But see, here's the thing about cigarettes. Does the doctor tell you to stop smoking? Does the doctor tell you to stop smoking? All the time. But see, here's the thing about cigarettes. Find something you love and let it kill you. Find something you love and let it kill you. Yeah. I don't know. it's not killing you yet. And I just had a, I just had a, a heart mammogram and all that stuff. And the doctors go, because the heart is shaped like this, you know, like that. And then what happens is, is that as you, the longer you smoke, it flattens out. And that way it's full of crap. Mine's still like this. And he said, this was two years ago, he said, Well, I'd like to tell you you need to quit smoking, but if you've been smoking as long as I know you have, the only thing that's really happened is that your heart looks like a teenager's and your voice sounds black. Do you think it's because you smoke American Spirits? I talked to a doctor that said that to me. Suzanne Humphrey, she was like, I think that one of the things that's killing people is cigarettes with all the additives in it, all the different chemicals that they put in those. A hundred and twenty chemicals. Crazy. My girlfriend hates that I fucking smoke. Of course, she knew I was smoking when she met me. but now that we've been together for three years and my wife of 20 years Elaine never smoked a cigarette in her life until she met me she on one hand just said well fuck it if you can't beat them join them so she started smoking but Kristen hates cigarettes and I don't know what to tell her because you know I don't do much good, but I'm really a good smoker. Really good at it. What is it that you love about cigarettes so much? They part of me I don know how to put it I mean I smoked my first cigarette at 10 Wow. At 10. 64 years of smoking. Yeah. That's crazy. And you're okay. I was addicted in high school. Wow. I used to wake up in the morning, and my parents had a great big house, and I would go down in the basement, go into the fucking storm cellar and smoke. Not knowing that I came out of that little area smelling like a cigarette ashtray. And my parents, you know, it's like, have you been smoking downstairs? Yeah. But they never said anything. Well, maybe it's better than having the stress of not smoking. One of the things about smoking, and I'm not an advocate, I'm not telling people they should smoke. But maybe one of the things about it is that at least it relaxes you. I think one of the worst things for people is just stress. I was talking about a friend of mine who's going through something pretty heavy right now. And he's had a couple of heart attacks and there's nothing wrong with him. He's had heart attacks just from stress where his fucking arteries just lock up. His whole body is just locked up just from anxiety and stress. And he's had heart attacks because of that. Doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, takes care of himself. and just the problems in his life are so overwhelming. There's got to be a benefit to just relaxing, just enjoying something and relaxing and not having that overwhelming stress. It's amazing how much cigarettes take you away from, because you've got to, you know, nowadays if you're a cigarette smoker, you know, I'm lucky to be here with you that I can smoke in your area. but most people would go go outside but I'll tell you a funny story about Johnny Cash and me John and I knew each other and I would go down and I would see him in Jamaica and then he got really sick but John quit smoking and John and I did and did something for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. And this is another funny story. We were standing around doing getting ready to do soundchecking and there was a whole bunch of people playing a whole bunch of people And the Eagles were on soundchecking and they were taking forever because Don Henley is a perfectionist. Everything's got to be just right. And I was standing with John and June, and John was getting irritated because we were like 40 minutes, you know, we'd been standing there ready to sound check for 40 minutes. So while we were standing there, I was smoking, and John goes, you're going to have to quit that smoking, John. It's going to catch up with you someday. I said, well, you fucking smoke. And he goes, well, I used to, but I saw this guy from London, and he got me to quit smoking. I go, maybe I should see that guy. He goes, okay, yeah, I will. you will anyway so so anyway we finally get on to soundcheck and John soundchecked without me because I just sang one song with him I and then when it came time to soundcheck I went you know John you know like he was irritated I don't know if you knew Johnny Cash or not he had a fucking temper you know you didn't fuck with John Cash you just didn't anyway I said you know John you know I got this song and we were doing Ring of Fire I said I know that song it's easy he said you sure and I said yeah yeah I got it he goes okay well thanks cause you know I'm sick of fucking being here so the next night we get up there and john can then he introduces me to my friend john melligan and he started something i fell into i didn't realize that he had changed the fucking key from him smoking to a lower key So I couldn't hit the note, cause it was I fell into, to I fell, I couldn't find a fucking note because it was not the note the song was written in I can sing right along with the song And I look over there and there Chuck Berry going And I look over there and there's Springsteen going. And all these people on the side of the stage, right, they're all giving me a look like, you're fucking up, man. It was like, yeah, I know it. And so anyway, as soon as the song was over, I ran off stage. I was totally humiliated, right? So I ran off stage you got to my trailer. I just get back there and all of a sudden knock on the door and I answer and it's John. And he said, can I come in? And I go, I don't know why you'd want to, but yeah, come on in. He goes, I told you we should have sound checked. Anyway, so that conversation led on to, I know this guy who will get you to quit smoking and so he gives me all the information and me and two other guys fly this guy over from London and Joe here was his solution for not smoking he gave me a good talking to that's it? that was it, I was smoking on the way back to Indiana my friend Ron White's been smoking his whole life and he just stopped and he went to a hypnotist. Same hypnotist. He quit drinking a few years back, went to a hypnotist, quit drinking easy. He said it was so easy. And then just recently, like within the last three or four weeks, quit smoking. He's almost 70. Just said the hypnotist got him and said now he doesn't have the desire. He goes sometimes, he goes after sex, he goes after a meal. Sometimes I have like for a brief second. I don't have to worry about that. I'm too old for sex. I don't have to worry about that anymore. Well, I guess Ron still gets after it. Because after, he said, just a brief second, and then it goes away. Well, I'll tell you, I was friends with the Newman family. And Paul quit smoking and died. Right afterwards? Was the smoking contributing to his health problems? Yeah. And it was just like he was older. He was like, you know, I mean he was like 80s, I don't know. Can you see how like he was older. and it was just like he was older. It was like, you know, I mean, he was like 80. I don't know. Can you see how old he was when he died? Anyway, so, you know, I just kind of went. Find what you love and let it kill you. Yeah. Find what you love and let it kill you. 83. Yeah. I fucking loved that guy. Hustler, one of my favorite movies of all time. Well, I'm really good friends with Joanne, who now is – I love Joanne. And once Paul died, I became her boyfriend. And she and I would talk all the time on the phone. And whenever I was in New York or the town she lives in, north of New York, I'd take her to plays. and we'd go to plays and we'd do stuff and I'd pinch her on the ass and she'd look at me like... But then when I would call her and she started calling me Paul, I would have to go, Joanne, it's not Paul, it's John. And now I still go see her all the time. Not all the time, not as much as I should. but she I can't remember the fucking town she lives in anyway she's she can't talk she can't you know she has what do you call that dementia yeah yeah and she can't talk and she she can you know I take my guitar and I'll play and sing for her she's oh God that's sad but you know she's always happy to see me I think she realizes that it's me. But I love her. I mean, she was just great. She was a great woman. How I met her was at a Democratic thing for, who was the guy that ran for president? John. John Kerry? John Kerry. And it was at Radio City. And I have a son named Hud. And Paul Newman starred in the movie Hud. And so Newman walked in to my dressing room and goes I looking for Hud Mellencamp And he was with me but he was running around Radio City somewhere Have you been to Radio City Yes Have you been backstage Mm There's all kinds of shit going on. Yeah. Yeah. You can go anywhere in that place. Right. Anyway, so Hud was running around there and I just let him go wherever he wants. And I'm sitting here talking to Paul and I'm like, this is pretty cool. And then Joanne walked in and was like, all right Newman hey because she was beautiful I mean Joe you cannot she must have been in her late 50s something like that she was gorgeous it's like one of the prettiest women I'd ever seen and so I just kind of like who else would I meet in Nepal hey Joanne and that's how we became friends and even before he died her and I were talking on the phone and yeah, I love Joanne. I hope she lives forever, but I know the people take care of her. It's sad. It's just hard to see someone in a deteriorated state like that as they get older. Well, you know, have you ever seen the movie, God, I can't think, The Fugitive Kind? What is it? The Fugitive Kind. I don't think so. Rogan, you got to watch it. Yeah. It's great. You'll love it. it's called The Fugitive Kind it stars Brando and Joanne Woodward and it's just such a written by Tennessee Williams it's really really good really good it's one of my favorite movies ever man The Fugitive Kind I'll check it out yeah I know a lot about old movies because I don't watch new movies if it's not in black and white I'm not watching really yeah has it always been the case or is that a new thing no it's always been the really yeah my girlfriend kristen will talk to me you know that actor and i'll go no i don't i don't know anybody in the entertainment business anymore except guys my age you know that's probably a good thing but i don't know any of them you know i know sean you know but I've I've known Sean since he was a kid before Ridgemont High oh wow that how long I known that guy wow that was a fucking great movie yeah it was they can make a comedy like that anymore Oh no They couldn even get it They wouldn make it again Not a chance No Not a chance at all. That's the thing with political correctness and then the woke movement. That's the thing that really died was the great comedy movies, the inappropriate. Well, you answer me this question. Yeah. Why did anybody give a shit anyway? I mean, you know, 86 and what was the senator, the comedian that wrote for Saturday Night Live? Al Franken? Yeah. Yeah. I just said, fuck you guys. Yeah. Should have. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, why did he let some other— I don't know. The climate got crazy. People lost their fucking minds. And I think it's kind of turned around and people are kind of recognizing that it was a massive overcorrection. It was. But the problem is the comedy films, like if you go back and watch, you know, like Tropical Thunder or any of those kind of crazy movies that were like really outrageous and funny, like, you know, you can't make them today. Nobody wants to fund them and finance them. Nobody wants the heat. Nobody wants to deal with the criticism. They essentially killed comedy movies. Well, and that's what I was asking you. How is doing stand-up? You can't kill stand-up. The problem with stand-up is people will come to see you, and that's all that matters. People come to see you and they laugh. That's all that matters. The critics don't matter. Who's your favorite stand-up comedian now? Alive? There's so many good ones right now. I mean, Chappelle's probably the greatest, one of the greatest of all time, and we're lucky we have him alive now. But Bill Burr's great. Shane Gillis. It's an amazing time for stand-up. Like Dave Attell is probably like the most unheralded great comic that's alive today. There's so many great comedy, so many great comedians now. What about Jim Jefferies? Jim Jefferies is funny. There's – Australian guy. There's more comics now that are huge than I think have ever been alive in the history of comedy because of YouTube and Instagram and definitely Netflix. because there's just more comedy to see. There's more comedy to go watch. There's more comics right now are selling out arenas than ever in the history of stand up comedy. Yeah I seen it on television You just can worry about what the haters think You can worry about that You just got to do what you think is funny and what you think the audience is going to think is funny and work real hard at it That's all you have to do. And just don't pay attention to the criticism. If you do, it will kill you. The best stand-up comedian movie I ever saw was the first Richard Pryor. Oh, Live on the Sunset Strip changed my life. Well, that – Changed my life. That was the third one. Was it? Yeah. So Wanted was before that, right? Yeah, and that took place in New Orleans. Okay, there was one he filmed in Long Beach. That is the one I'm talking about. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. Unbelievable. Phenomenal. Unbelievable. And while he's getting on stage, people are still coming in and sitting down. I know. He's fucking with people as they're coming in and sitting down. I don't think he had an opening act. I think he just came right out. No, he did. He had, yeah, he had, what's the woman's name? the singer uh oh he had a musical opening act yeah interesting um i can't remember who it was but he thanked him he thanked her oh okay but i saw that in like 19 whatever year it was 79 when it came out and i was in florida and i had to go into the black part of miami to see it and I took a couple guys in my band with me. And this one guy named Ferd in my band was just an idiot. We walk in there and there's nothing but black people. So I'm okay. And Ferd walks in like this. And I go, what the fuck are you doing? What the fuck? He walked in grabbing his dick? Yeah. because he wanted to show them that he was Patti LaBelle. Yeah, that's who opened up. There it is. Nice. Yeah. So anyway, he's grabbing his dick, walking in, and I'm looking, I'm going, are you out of your fucking mind? Stop doing that. My parents took me to see Live in the Sunset Strip when I was a kid. I was in high school, and I guess I was like 15 at the time, something like that. And I remember looking around at all the people laughing, and I couldn't believe how funny it was. I couldn't believe how funny it was. I couldn't believe that this guy could just be on stage talking, and it would be that funny. But I'd seen all these comedy movies that were released, funny it was. I couldn't believe how funny it was. I couldn't believe this guy could just be on stage funny it was. I couldn't believe how funny it was. I couldn't believe this guy could just be on stage talking and it would be that funny. But I'd seen all these comedy movies that were really funny, but nothing ever made me laugh as hard as this one man on stage talking. I'll never forget it. I was little. I was like looking around the crowd and people were just falling out of their seats, laughing, slapping each other. Couldn't couldn't believe how funny it was. Well, you know the back story on that? What was the back story? The back story was that was take two. Oh, yeah, he bombed the first one. Well, he, for whatever reason, he decided to do the show backwards. Oh, wow. So he started with, you know, how he ended and was going to work his way forward. And I don't know why he did that. But apparently people that knew him told me that he would always do shit like that. Well he was creative I had heard that he was working it out at the Comedy Store and then he would come in on a Monday night and it was bombing And then by Friday night he was destroying with the same material He just figured out a way to tweak it You know, that was back when he was working with Paul Mooney. Paul Mooney was one of his writers, who was a guy that I knew really well. I worked with him at the comedy store, and so Mooney and him would just figure out what the beats were. So did you play the comedy store a lot? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was my home club in L.A. And how did you go down? I got in, I auditioned in 1994. You know, I came from LA, I came from New York, rather, to LA to do a sitcom. And I didn't really give a shit about the sitcom. That wasn't really that important to me. I was only doing it for money. But while I was there, I was like, God, I got to go to the comedy store. because that when I lived in Boston, when I first started stand up in 88, they would talk about the Comedy Store like it was a religious experience. It was like Mecca because this was after Sam Kenison had made it. Of course, Richard Pryor come from there. Bill Hicks had come from there. David Letterman, so many people had come from there, Robin Williams. And so they just talked about it with like hushed tones like man you got to get to the Comedy Store It was like a pilgrimage like you had to get there and i got there in 94 and never left you know until the pandemic yeah i was friends with letterman because he's from indianapolis and uh his mom used to come down to my house in bloomington and we'd have his mom and his stepdad would come down and have dinner with me at my house. And so Letterman, I did a couple things on Letterman where I cooked a cake with his mom in Indianapolis and brought the cake to David for his birthday. I like Letterman. He's always been nice to me. And his mom told me a story. I don't know if it's true or not. But I had just released my first album and David was still doing the weather locally in Indianapolis. Oh, wow. And he said to his mom, if that kid can go out and do it I can too Oh wow That what his mom said I don know if that true or not His mom told me that I never asked Dave about it. You shouldn't even ask. Let it live in legend. Yeah, I like the story. John, thank you so much, man. This was a lot of fun. It was a real pleasure meeting you. I really enjoyed it, man. And I've been a big fan of yours for years. So this was a real treat for me. I'm glad to be here. And I hope you come and see me play. I would love to. I definitely will. Yeah. Is U-Tours on your website? Is it johnmellencamp.com or something like that? I don't know. We'll find it. We'll find it. Yeah, I don't know. We'll find it. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. It was really fun. Thank you. All right. And you're going to hate those fucking tattoos. Nope. I don't think so. I like them. Yeah, I thought I liked mine too. I thought I liked mine too. Bye, everybody. Bye.