--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudsen.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And I'm Michelle Hackman. Today, we're talking about the Trump administration's crackdown on immigrants who came to the U.S. through a program created by the Biden administration.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: When President Trump was on the campaign trail, he made a lofty promise. He said he was going to deport millions of illegal immigrants. And on day one, we will begin the largest domestic deportation operation in American history. And specifically, he said he was going to deport immigrants who had committed crimes.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: We are going to crack down on the gangs, the drug dealers, human traffickers, and criminal cartels. And I think the way that it was portrayed was, we're going to go after people who knowingly came here illegally, knowingly broke our laws. And so I think a lot of people were led to believe that that is what the crackdown was going to look like.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: And now it looks really different. That's our colleague Michelle Hackman, who covers immigration.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And she says that since Trump took office, the mass deportations have not yet been as mass as he promised. His mass deportation isn't going so well so far, and that's a huge source of frustration for Trump, for people in his administration.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Deportations actually aren't that much higher than they were under Biden. So to increase the number of deportations, the Trump administration is targeting a new group of people, people who came to the United States legally under certain programs.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: They're broadening the aperture of who we would think of as deportable. So it's a whole new scale that we're seeing.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudsen. It's Wednesday, March 19th.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Coming up on the show, a new phase in Trump's immigration fight. Why shop at Burlington? Maybe it's the deals that are new each time you drop by. Maybe it's the brand names you'll be shocked Burlington has in store. Or maybe it's the quality of the items, the amazing selection, and the newest trends.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: If you like to save but also like to stay in style, Burlington is your answer. And the question you'll be asking yourself is, why go anywhere else? Burlington. Deals. Brands. Wow.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Tuesday on NBC, Jimmy Fallon and Bozema St. John host the highly anticipated new competition show. I hired 10 creatives from all walks of life. They will be battling it out to see who can impress the world's biggest brands.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: This is a huge opportunity. This is the battle for the next big idea. This is not play play. We're spending millions of dollars. I'm so excited to embark on this adventure with all of you. Make the best idea win! On Brand with Jimmy Fallon. Series premiere, Tuesday on NBC.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: In recent weeks, the Trump administration has been turning up the heat on deportations. Over the weekend, his administration deported hundreds of Venezuelans without giving them hearings, citing an 18th century law.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: He's also been expanding the list of who is deportable by going after people with a variety of legal statuses, including some with green cards or visas.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: As part of that expansion, the administration is targeting an obscure program known as humanitarian parole.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Humanitarian parole is a part of immigration law that's historically been used for special situations when someone can't get a visa.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And so the government says, okay, this is an extraordinary circumstance. We're going to, for humanitarian reasons, let you into the country temporarily on this thing called parole.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: So the idea is kind of like the U.S. will let in some people under certain circumstances out of the kindness of America's heart, but it's only supposed to be temporary.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: The idea is it's supposed to be temporary, but it does, I want to emphasize, really give the government very broad authority to let people in as long as they can say that there's some kind of either humanitarian or public benefit reason to let someone in.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Humanitarian parole has also been used during emergency evacuations, like after the Vietnam War, and after the U.S. pulled out of Afghanistan.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: But humanitarian parole really expanded under the Biden administration, specifically after Russia invaded Ukraine.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: So when Russia invaded Ukraine, there was a really interesting incident that happened where people were obviously fleeing Ukraine, they were spreading all over Europe, but a certain number, about 20 people, started coming to Mexico and hoping to cross the border to come to America.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And we had this incident where in one month, 20,000 Ukrainians all flew to the Mexican city Tijuana and came up to this one border crossing across from San Diego.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And we're all asking for asylum. The refugee crisis created by the war in Ukraine has come to America's doorstep.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Hundreds of Ukrainians are gathering in Mexico near the U.S.-Mexico border. And so the Biden administration was processing those people, letting them into the country.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: But it said, we can't just let everyone in the world think, if you come to Mexico and then walk up to our border, we're just going to let you in.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: So the Biden administration decided to expand the use of humanitarian parole and use it as the basis of a program called Uniting for Ukraine.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And the deal was, if you apply in advance, so, you know, the government has a chance to vet you, and you find an American to sort of financially sponsor you, take you in, be your guarantor in some way, then the government would give you travel permission to fly to the U.S. and live here for a grant of two years.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Now, the Biden administration has promised to welcome 100,000 Ukrainian refugees into this country.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Ultimately, more than 200,000 Ukrainian refugees moved to the U.S. via this program.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: As a border gambit, it worked. I mean, literally the day that they announced this program, no one flew to Mexico from there.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: It would solve the Ukrainian immigration issue. Exactly.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: The program worked so well to get Ukrainians off the U.S. southern border that Biden decided to expand it to other countries in Latin America.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Biden was having a crisis at the border. I mean, there were hundreds of thousands of people coming.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: At the height of it, about 250,000 people crossed illegally in one month.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And he had this example of this program sort of fixing a border problem with the Ukrainians.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And so people in his administration said, wait a second, you know, there are certain countries in Latin America where the situation is basically, you know, it's different, but it's just as bad as Ukraine.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: You know, Haiti, the government, basically the president was assassinated.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: You know, in Cuba and Venezuela, there was sort of widespread issues with starvation.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: So Biden decided to offer humanitarian parole to people in Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And so Biden said, these people are not going to stop coming, basically, no matter what we do.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And so he made this bet where he said, if we let these people in legally, you know, we make them find a sponsor, we have them pay for their own plane tickets, we give them a work permit, they're probably going to choose that over coming in illegally.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Once these immigrants had this status and got into the U.S., they're only supposed to be here for two years.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: What's the next step? Is it just two years and goodbye?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Or was there something else that the immigrants could do once they're here to gain more long-term status?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Yeah, so the immigrants, once they got here, you know, were eligible to apply for anything else.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: So many applied for asylum.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: A smaller number, you know, probably found other paths.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: More than half a million people entered the U.S. from Latin American countries under the program.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And Biden's decision to do this was very controversial.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: The reason this program was so controversial is because once this humanitarian parole expires, the person is in the country illegally, and they're basically in the same position as someone else who had crossed illegally.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Hmm. So it's sort of like a way to bring people into the United States legally, so they're not just lining up in this giant queue on the southern border.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: But the fact is that they're now here. Exactly.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: The Republicans in particular have argued that this program is illegal because Congress sets limits on immigration.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: You know, we have visa categories. If you don't fit into one, people strongly feel, well, then you have no right to be in the country.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: You shouldn't be here. And a president shouldn't have the authority to just decide to let a large group of people in who Congress hasn't authorized.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: When Trump took office, he immediately ended the parole program for Cuba, Haiti, Venezuela, and Nicaragua.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And no new applicants are being considered.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And immigrants who came to the U.S. under the program from Ukraine are now left in limbo.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: It's not like I don't want to go to Ukraine, but I want to leave.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I want to feel safe. And right now, my country can't give me that.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: We'll be right back.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: This episode is brought to you by State Farm.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Checking off the boxes on your to-do list is a great feeling.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Whether you prefer talking in person, on the phone, or using the award-winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: See associate or lowes.com for more details and qualifying items.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Katerina Kirilova grew up in Mariupol, a city in southern Ukraine.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: It was my hometown.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: It was close to the sea.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: I spent a lot of time at the beach.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: I had friends there.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: All my life was there.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: In February 2022, her hometown came under siege as part of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: in Mariupol, but it also was bombed and burnt down.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Katerina says she was an orphan and that her grandmother was the only family she was close to.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: So she had to find a new place to go.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: She eventually found the Uniting for Ukraine program and was accepted.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: What did you bring to the U.S. when you left Ukraine?
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: It was my dog and a backpack.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Yeah, that's it.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: What was in your backpack?
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: A few t-shirts.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Because, yeah, I left Ukraine only with my dog.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Because, yeah, my apartment burned down.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: With everything I had, so, yeah.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Katerina found a sponsor in Texas, a retired military couple, and moved in with them for a few months.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: They're really special people for me.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: I lived with them for the first two months.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Then I found a job and rented my own place.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: And I did the right thing, you know.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Like, I worked.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: I never got any benefits.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: I paid my taxes.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: After Trump took office, Katerina says she got laid off from the nonprofit agency where she worked, which lost its government funding.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: And now, the future of the Uniting for Ukraine program is unclear.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Katerina said she hoped her status would be extended until the war ends, but that seems unlikely.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: So right now, like, they're all just waiting, waiting for, I don't know, for something.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Our colleague Michelle, who covers immigration, says Trump has done more than just end the program.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: For immigrants who came from Latin America, the Trump administration is revoking some people's status early.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And that has the effect of making them deportable.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And it's happening sort of on a rolling basis.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: These people are eligible for fast deportation because they came into the country relatively recently.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: So that means if you get arrested by ICE, you don't even have the right to go in front of a judge and plead your case.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: You can just be deported.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: The other thing that Trump has done is that he's paused the processing of any other application that one of these people has put in.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: So let's say you came into the country and then you asked for asylum.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Trump has said your asylum claim actually can't be decided because we've put them all on pause.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And so what happens to these people once their status expires?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Are they expected to just leave on their own?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Or is the administration fighting them and deporting them?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: We're still in the beginning stages.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I think that both are going to happen.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: The administration has created an app that it calls CBP Home, where it's asking people to report their plans to self-deport.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Are there any court challenges to these moves by the Trump administration?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: There is a lawsuit filed to try to stop Trump from ending this program.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And in some cases, the court has said, you know, even though a program is illegal, some of the people who rely on it, you know, it's unfair to take that away from them.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And so it's possible that a court could rule that way, but we just don't know yet.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: You know, we are here having this debate about whether this program is legal, whether the Biden administration had the authority to use it.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: But to me, the really salient thing is these are people who went really far out of their way to do things the right way and to follow all the rules.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: They didn't break any laws by coming into the country.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And so it's completely sort of changing the set of laws on them sort of with no notice.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: How do you feel about America right now?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Like, I have nothing bad to say about America, but what current government is doing.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: So immigrants, to people who came over here legally, it's cruel to do it to people who doesn't have a place where to go.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I feel like I'm being forced to live.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Katerina is planning to stay until her parole runs out.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Then she says she'll probably go back to Ukraine, despite the risks.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I was able to survive once and escape.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And I'm not sure if I'm going to be lucky enough to do it again.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: But I don't have much of a choice at this point.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: How do you feel right now?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Overwhelmed.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Because, like, I don't understand what's next, you know?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And, like, you have to figure out plan B.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Like the war is still there and I can't go back to Ukraine.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: My city is still occupied so it just...
--:-- Michelle Hackman: But I can't live undocumented here either so it just...
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I can tell that you're holding back tears right now.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Yeah.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: It's hard not to have a home and it's hard to understand that there's no place where you can go and to feel safe at least.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I felt like I finally got home, but now I feel like I'm losing it again.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And it's hard.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: That's all for today.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Wednesday, March 19th.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: If you like our show, follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: We're out every weekday afternoon.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: See you tomorrow.
