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--:-- Host: Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Kate Leinbaugh.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: It's Thursday, February 6th. Today, we're talking about the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE, and its impact on USAID, the U.S. Agency for International Development. Joining me is Marcy Hirsch Robinson, a former USAID worker who's been affected by the changes.
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: Thanks for having me on the show.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: Marcy, you've worked for USAID for over 20 years, living and working in over 30 countries. What motivated you to join the agency?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: I like to say that I am a stubborn optimist. I generally believe in the good of humans, and it feels like my responsibility as a privileged American to be able to contribute to people around the world in their darkest moments.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: When did you get the sense that the new administration was looking to take major actions against USAID?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: It became startlingly obvious on Friday, January 24th, that this was not business as usual and that this transition from one administration to the next was unlike anything that any of my colleagues who've been in government for their entire careers had seen before.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: What happened on that Friday?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: We were told about stop work orders that had been issued affecting 100 percent of USAID programs. It was not made clear to us what that was or exactly how that would be implemented. We were just told that immediately all work had to stop.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: And then what happened?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: The following Monday, dozens of senior officials with USAID were put on leave. Many of my colleagues had expressed to me that they were feeling very anxious because they understood that any moment they would receive a stop work order themselves. And the next day, they did.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: At noon on Tuesday, January 28th, hundreds of USAID contractors were laid off. Can you describe what that was like?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: Everyone was crying. They were in shock. There was an announcement made sort of floor by floor of the office telling everyone who is an institutional support contractor that they needed to turn over their laptops and their phones. And as they followed that instruction, there was no person receiving their equipment.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: And what happened to their health benefits?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: Their health benefits were cut off.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: Later, there was an order to take down the decorative pictures and art of the agency's work from the walls of its D.C. office. How did you feel at that time?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: Terrified, horrified, incredulous. It didn't seem possible that one person could do this.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: And we were grasping at any bits of information that we had about who was in charge and where these decisions were coming from.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: Marcy, you mentioned earlier that you were worried about your work to help women and other marginalized groups being vulnerable to cuts. Can you explain why?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: I knew that gender, diversity, equity, and inclusion were all going to become buzzwords that were going to be used in a very negative sense. Where the way that I use those words and the way that technical experts in USAID use those words is just simply to make sure that when USAID has a food program, a water program, a health program, that everyone who needs it can access it, that women as well as men can access it, that old people and young people, that persons of different ethnic and religious backgrounds can all access the program.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: You decided to resign, but the speed at which the Trump administration acted surprised you. Can you describe what happened next?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: USAID's programs were quickly shut down, and almost all foreign aid put on pause. Marcy says recipients of USAID funding were scrambling for answers.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: I was receiving frantic messages from partners saying that they didn't understand what was happening and could I provide guidance, but we were not permitted to communicate at all externally with those partners.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: So I couldn't respond back to them to tell them how they should act. But they were extremely concerned because as you can imagine, the work that we do has life or death implications.
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: When you just shut off the valves of humanitarian assistance, imagine what is shutting off is a line of children waiting for tuberculosis vaccines. And so suddenly the entire line of children has to go home because the vaccines can't be given any longer.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: Imagine a hospital neonatal ward full of newborn babies that need urgent care and doctors, midwives, and nurses having to walk off the jobs because they're not permitted to work any longer.
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: Malnourished children in Sudan and in Gaza no longer being able to access the life-saving foods that can keep them from the brink of death.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: This was what we were faced with.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: Marcy, you mentioned earlier that the U.S. government has granted a few exceptions to allow emergency assistance through. Can you explain what that means?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: It means that in some cases, the government is allowing humanitarian aid to continue, but it's not clear how long that will last or what the long-term implications will be.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: Trump administration officials have said their goal is to ensure that foreign aid benefits the U.S. and American taxpayers. What does this feel like?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: It's hard to put into words how it feels because the implications of this are so vast that it's hard for me to wrap my brain fully around it.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: I feel ill for my close colleagues who, in this moment of losing their livelihoods, were not thinking of themselves and how they will pay rent and how they will buy groceries for themselves and their families, they were thinking about our program beneficiaries, and they were thinking about the children who need malaria treatments and were not able to do anything.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: We're just powerless.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: Marcy, you mentioned earlier that you were trying to figure out who to raise your concerns to and where these directives were coming from. Can you explain what you learned?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: Prior to this past weekend, it had seemed to me that the decisions being made about USAID were coming from the political appointees working within USAID and the State Department.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: It wasn't until the weekend that we first learned that Elon Musk and Doge were involved in this.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: What does this mean for USAID and its workers?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: We're just trying to survive right now. We're trying to figure out what's happening and how we can continue to do our work.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: And what about the future of USAID?
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: I don't know. I really don't know.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: Marcy, thank you for sharing your story with us today.
--:-- Marcy Hirsch Robinson: Thank you for having me.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: And now, let's talk to Brian Schwartz, a reporter for The Wall Street Journal, who's been covering the story of DOGE and its impact on the federal government.
--:-- Brian Schwartz: Thanks for having me on the show.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: Brian, can you explain what DOGE is and what its goals are?
--:-- Brian Schwartz: DOGE is the Department of Government Efficiency, and its goal is to cut waste and inefficiency in the federal government.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: And who's leading DOGE?
--:-- Brian Schwartz: Elon Musk, the CEO of Tesla and SpaceX, is heading up the effort.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: And what's been the reaction to DOGE's efforts so far?
--:-- Brian Schwartz: There's been a lot of criticism from Democrats and some Republicans who are concerned about the impact of DOGE's efforts on the federal government and its agencies.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: And what about the future of DOGE?
--:-- Brian Schwartz: It's hard to say. But one thing is certain: DOGE is going to continue to shake things up in Washington.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: Brian, thank you for sharing your insights with us today.
--:-- Brian Schwartz: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Kate Leinbaugh: And that's all for today's show. Thanks for listening.
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