--:-- Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and today on the Mel Robbins podcast, we're going to talk about the other people in your life, the ones that are kind of annoying you, and what to do about it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: All right, you guys, I don't know what is in the air, but you have been flooding MelRobbins.com and all of the DMs with questions about people in your life that will not change, and it's starting to bug you. And it doesn't matter what you do. You have tried to push people, inspire people, lead by example. You have given pep talks. You have resorted to bribing people. "If you would pick up around the house a little bit more, I'll buy you that new lacrosse stick."
--:-- Mel Robbins: I think we've all been in that situation where you see potential in somebody that you love. You want them to fulfill upon that potential and they don't do anything about it. And yeah, you've been dropping hints. You support, you push, you have tried in every single way to get that person to fulfill the potential you see in them, or at least to get them to see it in themselves, and nothing happens. It breaks your heart. And as hard as you try, they don't do anything. And yet you can't stop yourself from trying to push them.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Or there are those situations where you're starting to feel like you're being used because you do everything around the house or everything around the office and everybody else seems to have it pretty easy. While you're busy doing all the dishes and all the grocery shopping or finishing up all the year-end reports, why does this always fall to you? And you've dropped hints and you've tried to push people to do different and you've even given your ultimatums. Nothing changes.
--:-- Mel Robbins: That's what we're talking about today. What do you do when either you can't get somebody you love to change? And they are wasting their life. Wasting, throwing their potential out the window. And what do you do if you're starting to feel used? That it's all on your shoulders, that everybody lives on easy street but you because you pay the bills and you do all the hard stuff and it always drops in your lap.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, that is exactly what we're going to talk about today. How to identify when this is happening and more importantly, what to do about it. And you're going to hear from two listeners who are struggling with people in their life who they love, but who they are ready to just—oh, they just are so sick of it. They're so sick of it. They're calling me.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And by the way, for those of you who have never met me, I'm Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world's leading experts on habits, motivation, and change. And you have pulled into a fantastic inaugural edition of the Mel Robbins podcast, because today we're kicking this topic off with a question from a listener named Crystal, who has got some issues with her siblings.
--:-- Crystal: [Audio clip] Hey, Mel, it's Crystal. And I have a big question. How to know if you're being used? I have two adult siblings that have always lived with me. One has been unemployed for more than three years. Last week, my working sibling was placed on PIP. I've always been the big breadwinner and they and my mom all lived in my home. My mom passed away four years ago. It's becoming increasingly difficult to motivate them and or get them to understand the weight of responsibility is on me. I'm beginning to think they don't care and are enjoying the stress-free lifestyle they've become accustomed to or they don't understand because they've never had this type of responsibility. When are they going to grow up and be equal contributors or move out? This is really eating up bandwidth in my head. I will add we had a horrendous childhood and largely why we all stayed together. There is safety in numbers and we had to have a united front against a very abusive father and ex-husband. He abused us all well into adulthood. Thanks for any insight. Thanks for all you do.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Crystal, thank you for that question. And thank you for the detail that you provided in the end. I think that's really relevant to how you handle this and how you think about the situation that you're in. I've got five takeaways that I'm going to share with you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: The first one is this. There is a big difference between being used by somebody and being in a situation where somebody is used to the situation. Does that make sense? I'm going to unpack this a bit because I think it's really, really important.
--:-- Mel Robbins: When you're being used, that's a situation where somebody is intentionally taking advantage of a situation to their benefit. They know they're doing it. For example, if you're in a job and you've basically phoned it in and you're only staying there because you want the money, but you're not actually doing what's expected of you, you are using your employer. When you sneak stuff from your roommate's side of the refrigerator, you're using them. When you intentionally do something like invite yourself to somebody's house even though you don't like them, but they have a great pool and it's a nice weekend, but you are not that great of a guest or you gossip about them, you're using them. Are you in a situation where you're being used because somebody's leading you on, but deep down they just want sex? And yet they're telling you that this is more, but they just want sex. That's a situation where you're being used.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Or are you in a situation like Crystal where the situation's been like this for a while and everybody's kind of used to it, but you're just sick of it. So you now want to change it. And so I think it's important for you, Crystal, to anchor there. And as you are listening to me unpack all of these takeaways, I want you to apply this to your situation.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And the details, Crystal, in your particular situation matter because you guys are used to living together. You guys are used to being under the same roof. You said that you've been doing this for a long time. Your mom used to live with you and that there's safety in numbers. And so I believe what's happened is that you are just tired of the situation the way that it is. And that means that you are going to be the one that changes it. Because if everybody else is used to it and they're comfortable in it, they have no motivation or no interest in changing it. Why would they? It's working for them. It's just not working for you. And that's okay.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So the second takeaway, you ask the question, "When are my siblings going to grow up? When are they going to realize I'm frustrated? When are they going to?" Never. They are never going to grow up. Why? Because they're comfortable. They're used to this. They're used to you being in charge. You've always been in charge. You've always been the breadwinner. You said as much. So they're not going to grow up. And that's okay, everybody. That's okay. That means that you are going to have to be the grown up and you're going to have to parent. And I'm going to tell you exactly what to do when you're in a situation where you're trying to make the people around you level up and help you change the situation.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I also want to say for your sake, Crystal, and for anybody else that, it sounds like you guys are all struggling with trauma and PTSD. And so I know that that's also why you haven't shaken things up. If all three of you experienced horrific abuse, which you just said that you did, then you also have the added issue of people maybe not having healed from that trauma and maybe not being as proactive or as motivated or as self-sufficient as they could be.
--:-- Mel Robbins: There was another detail in what Crystal said. She said PIP. What does that mean, everybody? It means a performance improvement plan. What that basically means is you're messing up at work and your bosses have sat you down and they have said your work is not satisfactory and we are going to put you on a PIP, a performance improvement plan, which is very embarrassing. It's very confronting. I'm not making excuses for the sibling. I'm just trying to explain the psychology here of why they're not growing up and why they've gotten very comfortable with very low standards. And you're now in this framework at work where you're being measured. And if you don't measure up, your ass is fired.
--:-- Mel Robbins: But oftentimes when people are set up with a PIP, they feel so ashamed and embarrassed that they just quietly quit. They feel like the writing's on the wall. They feel unmotivated and self-conscious. 90% of people, when they get put on a performance improvement plan, leave the job. Whoa. It kind of makes sense because you feel like you've been called out and you're embarrassed. And so it's really important how you set up a performance improvement plan. Because if it's literally like "you suck and you're going to get fired unless you do these things," who wants to stay at that job? A performance improvement plan can be a really good thing because it means that they are providing a pathway for you to be able to excel, which means they believe that you can.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And so, Crystal, ironically, we're going to put your family, your siblings on a performance improvement plan and we're going to set it up the right way. And you're going to get everybody on the same page. Clean slate, new energy. And you're going to do that by setting small, attainable goals so that everybody feels not only like they can be successful, but they're going to feel a sense of pride as they start contributing to the family household.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And you, Crystal, you're going to borrow a 19-word sentence. This is something that's been studied at Stanford. When you say to somebody, "I have high expectations of this team and I think you're capable of achieving them, which is why I'm going to put you on a performance improvement plan so that you know what's expected and I believe you can achieve this. This is the path forward for success for you." That is a way that makes you want to play the game because since it's your family, you can talk about your feelings and you can talk about your need to feel support and you can talk about these simple things that they can do that would make a huge difference in this living arrangement and in their lives and in your lives. So it can be like a really positive thing that you're going to do.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So takeaway so far: you're either being used because it's conscious and intentional, or you're just in a situation where people are used to what's going on and they're not motivated to change it like you are. When will other people grow up and realize this? Never. You got to be the adult in this situation if you want to change it because it's your life. It's your happiness. By the way, it's also your house and it's your responsibility to lead the change that you want to see always.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Another takeaway that I want you to have is when you're around people that are not motivated to change their lives, you're probably dealing with what psychologists call learned helplessness. Now, learned helplessness was first coined in 1965 by a very famous psychologist after doing these really awful experiments with dogs. I'm not even going to explain the experiments. But basically what learned helplessness is, is it's when you receive a series of setbacks or you are experiencing a lot of pain and you basically give up. You decide that there's nothing that you can do. It is what it is. And you just survive and try to cope through the pain and the situation.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It's the difference between being a person who is pessimistic, that you feel like nothing's ever going to change. You're never going to be good enough. Why even bother? Boss never likes my work or I never do well at work or my sister already takes care of things and I'm never going to amount up to anything, versus having an optimistic point of view. And optimism, realistic optimism is just the belief that through your own actions and through your own attitude, you can make a positive dent in any situation. That your effort is always worth it. That trying is always worth it. That growth is available to you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And so I say this because when you're surrounded by people that have this sense that nothing they do matters, it just creates complacency and fear. And there's one thing that makes a difference when you're in this situation. And Crystal, I think that's the situation that you're in. You guys have past trauma. The situation has always been that you always take care of everything. Now you've got one of your siblings who's on a performance plan. So they're feeling kind of kicked down to the ground. And I would imagine there is this sense of pessimism. There is this sense of "I'm just used to life not being easy."
--:-- Mel Robbins: And that's where you can come in. And this is the fourth takeaway. You ready? They need goals. They need goals set by you. Goals for how they are supposed to show up. You see, they don't know the path forward. They don't know how it's supposed to look. You do because you want the situation to be different. And so it's on you to set what are called SMART goals. For those of you who have not heard about SMART goals, we will link to the article that was written in 1981, where three researchers came up with the idea of SMART goals in the context of leadership and business. But SMART goals is a very simple and effective way to think about setting goals for yourself or other people. SMART stands for Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, and Timely.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And so here's how this is going to work with your siblings. I want you to think about how the situation could be different. Put on an optimistic hat. And now we're going to paint a picture of what it would look like in the day-to-day living situation so that you feel supported. Because it's not just about the money. Are they doing anything around the house? Are they cooking? Are they caring for the yard? When it snows, do they shovel? Are they taking the trash out on Mondays? Are they making their beds in the morning? Like what is it that would make you feel as though the dynamic has shifted, that everybody's leveled up in their own achievable way, and those actions make you feel a shift?
--:-- Mel Robbins: So let's go back to SMART. Specific. What are specific goals you could set? And those goals might look like "you need to make your bed every morning." Those goals might look like "I'm going to make a grocery list and every Tuesday so-and-so is going to go to the grocery store." "I'm going to create a schedule for who's cooking and who's doing dishes." And since you guys aren't contributing financially, that's what you're going to do. I know I'm being very kind of like annoyingly detailed here and maybe in a really condescending way. I don't mean to be. I'm trying to say that because people don't know what you want, which is what you should assume, and you're the one who wants the situation to be different, you have to get crystal clear, black and white, granular, meaning specific. I got to be able to measure it. It's got to be broken down so that your siblings can achieve it. It's got to be realistic and it's got to be timely, meaning do it on a Tuesday, do it on a Wednesday, every weekend, I expect this. Because that is how you lay a path forward for somebody who is in a hole to be successful.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And any of you listening who have adult kids coming back to live with you in your home, or if you have an ex who lives with you or a friend, if you're in a situation where you feel like you're the one that's being used and you're the one that's paying the bills and everybody's got a free ride. I want you to use this same plan to help get those people in your life back on their feet and help you detach from being their crutch.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So the final piece, the fifth takeaway is this: when you see your siblings doing those actions, when you see them checking the boxes, when you see them making their bed, when you see them spending an hour every day looking for a job, or you see them checking in with you for 10 minutes every night about how work went today, when you see those actions happening, you got to cheer for them. Because what you're trying to do is you're trying to create an environment where somebody knows that you believe in them. They know what your expectations are. They know the defined achievable steps that they can take in order to make you happy. And then when they do those things, you got to cheer for them. You got to say, "Thank you." You got to say, "I appreciate you."
--:-- Mel Robbins: This is so important because you're not dealing with a situation, Crystal, where you're getting used. You're in a situation where you're trying to level up your siblings. And you're trying to do it when there's issues like generational trauma and hopelessness and patterns in place and a dynamic between all of you, which means you got to get super intentional about what the new game looks like. You got to define it. And then like an awesome coach always does, you got to cheer for your players as they are in that game. That's how you do this.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I know you can do it because I can just tell based on your voice that you are somebody who is a very matter of fact, professional, successful, awesome person, which is why this is frustrating because we all think that everybody thinks like us. We all think that all those things that you think are obvious. "Why do you put your stuff on the floor? Why don't you just let the dog out?" We think it's obvious. It's not obvious to everybody, but you can make it obvious and you can make it a game worth playing.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And don't forget, you get to talk about your feelings. "Guys, I love you, but I feel frustrated and I'm starting to feel a little used and I'm starting to feel very sad because I see you guys just coasting in life and I believe that there's something more for you. And so here's my request. If you're going to continue to live with me and I want you to, I need you to show up differently. And here is what I need from you. And I know you can achieve this. It would make a huge difference for me. And if you don't think you can do that, then maybe it's come to the point where we can't live together. But I need this support from you guys."
--:-- Mel Robbins: And you might be surprised at how they show up if you frame it in the support that you need from them. It would probably feel really good to know that "I could actually do something that my sister would appreciate and feel supported by" instead of feeling like the one that's not successful. So that's another way to look at it. But gosh, I really appreciate your question. So thank you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: All right, so that's question number one. But don't you dare go anywhere because coming up, I'm gonna be coaching a listener of this podcast live. Her name is Brooke. And Brooke's boyfriend has not worked for two years. And she's feeling used and she has no idea how to bring this up with him. She wants him to get a job. She wants things to change, but she's scared he's going to leave. We got all that coming up next.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. Today we're talking about what you do when you are feeling used and how you can inspire people around you to level up the game of life without trying to fix them. I can't wait to jump in with this next listener. Her name is Brooke and she wrote to me because her boyfriend hasn't worked in two years and honestly, she's tired of it. So let's get Brooke on the line.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Brooke, hi. It's so nice to meet you.
--:-- Brooke: Oh my gosh, this is great. It's great to meet you. Thank you for being here.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So tell me—you're so cute. I love your glasses.
--:-- Brooke: Oh, thank you. I like yours too. And the photos behind you are so cool.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, thank you.
--:-- Brooke: That's actually of my best friend. She just passed away a little over a year ago.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, that sucks.
--:-- Brooke: I know. It really does.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yeah. So what's going on, Brooke? How can I help you?
--:-- Brooke: So I just would love your advice on this. I have a boyfriend whom I love a lot for many reasons, but he hasn't worked in almost two years. He lives with me and isn't contributing financially. And he doesn't see a problem with it. When I bring up getting a job, he gets defensive and it often leads to a conversation that ends up not being productive, and he becomes more distant. He doesn't have a close relationship with his friends and family. I am his closest person in his life. And I have learned that this makes it really difficult to persuade him or encourage him.
--:-- Brooke: I want to be supportive and allow him to have his own process of change. But it's frustrating because I'm paying for everything. I also feel like I can't fully trust him and he's turning away from me. I'm not sure if he's using me or he's going to become what I feel he's capable of becoming, which is a greater version of himself and find a job and be better. This relationship feels toxic, but also feels unique. This is the greatest issue that I'm having right now and I just don't know how to go about it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Gotcha. So that was great. And now I want you to just talk to me and tell me what's going on, like a friend.
--:-- Brooke: Well, actually right now I've been finding that, besides the work situation, our relationship has not felt as toxic. We haven't been fighting, we've been getting along. I just don't bring it up. I don't bring up him not working as much because it does lead to friction. I can immediately see his uncomfortability in it and he just kind of shuts down and gets defensive. So I kind of leave it alone. But I can't keep leaving it alone. I really feel it's inappropriate that this is what's going on.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Does he know you're talking to me?
--:-- Brooke: He does. I made him leave the house so he couldn't hear what was going on.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And how did he feel about you talking to me?
--:-- Brooke: Good. He was supportive. I didn't go into detail about what it was about. He knows I listen to your podcast all the time though and I make him listen to it too or I'll sneak it on when I'm driving in the car. I just—me and my sister were just talking about this the other day. I feel like with listening to your podcast, I feel like I am realizing things that I need to change and I'm doing it, but no one else around me in everyday life is doing the same things. So I'm trying to be patient and using different tools. And she was laughing. She's like, "I feel the same way. It's so hard to, you want to just get them to understand it and feel the same way and change." But that's not always what happens.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, I want to get some facts. So how long have you been with your boyfriend?
--:-- Brooke: Just about three years.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay. And for how long has he been unemployed?
--:-- Brooke: It's going on two years now. It was January of last year that he officially stopped working completely. And then when he was working, he kind of wasn't doing that great. Like he was going there late and his boss was getting frustrated with him. And then I think his boss actually ended up letting him go. And he just hasn't been motivated to do anything since.
--:-- Brooke: He was incarcerated for eight years as well. And I don't know what that's like. And he does say a lot of times that he believes that that could have something to do with where he's at in his life. And he gets very frustrated with that. I'm sure. I don't know how to help them in that way at all. I want to be supportive. But I also need support, too.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yes, you do. You deserve support. And I'm glad you reached out for help. And there's a couple things that I want to say right off the bat, because I'm going to ask a few more details.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It's important for you to know that in the beginning of my career, I worked for legal aid and I was a criminal defense attorney. And so I represented people like your boyfriend who were either accused of or convicted of crimes. And I believe that once somebody has served their sentence, we need to do a much better job as a society in rehabilitating and empowering and in welcoming people back into society. And so I'm glad that you shared with me that he did spend eight years incarcerated, because there is no question that the re-entry into life outside of the jail system is very jarring, traumatic, isolating.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And one of the things that I know a lot of people that I represented really struggled with is not only the rejection and the scrutiny that you face when you get out, and in some states, the laws that make it very, very difficult for you to truly find meaningful work, is that the structure of being incarcerated is completely removed. And even though it is horrendous to experience any time behind bars, there is this kind of certainty that you come to rely on in terms of the day-to-day schedule. And so for somebody like your boyfriend to get fired and lose that day-to-day structure, it does not surprise me at all that he has spiraled mentally, that he has not got any motivation, and that this has been a very challenging situation for you to watch as well.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And so I'm saying that because I want you to know that I'm bringing a level of—not firsthand experience—but having either represented or counseled or coached people that are in this exact situation, this is more complex than, say, Christopher Robbins, my husband, losing his job because of the added shame that you feel, the added discrimination that he's probably experiencing when he goes in to try to find a job.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And was he in jail for a violent crime or was it more of that sort of white collar, as they say, crime of financial fraud, that kind of stuff?
--:-- Brooke: Well, it was pretty—I guess you could say it was violent. It was armed robbery. It was a young kid. And it was with a cap gun. And it was a shame because he was so young when he went. I do understand that he is not that person anymore. And he has lost a lot of time. What he often tells me—and before I started working on myself, I used to get very defensive and kind of just stab him with my words—because he really feels like he's owed something. He feels that he doesn't even know what he wants to do, who he is. He just got into skateboarding.
--:-- Brooke: And at first I was like, "You're not a child. You need to work. This is what real life is. People have responsibilities." And my dad would get involved too. And really, I felt like I was bullying him in a sense, now that I have some different perspective. And I do want to be supportive, and I don't want to be bullying him. And I don't want to discourage him more than he already is. I really feel that he has so much potential. He's so smart. He's fluent in sign language because his mother is deaf. He can figure out how to do anything. He's very capable, and he presents himself very well. He's just not applying himself. He's just not going out there. And I don't see it changing anytime soon. And it's starting to freak me out.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It should freak you out because two years is a very long time. Two years is plenty of time to let somebody coast. And I agree with you. It is time for the dynamic to change. And what you're really asking, and this is what's universal in your question, and one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk to you, is that we all have the experience in life of seeing the potential in somebody that we care deeply about and doing whatever we can to support, to push, to cajole, to try to get that person that we care about to see their potential too.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And the truth is that at some point, if the person stays stuck and you start to feel as you said you do, "Am I getting used? What is going on here?" Something's got to change. You have to change the way you're showing up. He's going to have to do the work to tap into his own potential. We've got to disrupt the dynamic between the two of you in a healthy way so that your kindness and your generosity and your patience is not enabling him to stay stuck where he is.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I believe in this deeply for a number of reasons. Number one, I do think when somebody's really struggling, they need your compassion. They need your support. They need all of that. But if you start to share how it makes you feel to watch them struggle and you start to offer up things that they could do, and he is actively not doing those things, then what's happening is you're now, after two years, standing by watching somebody slowly self-destruct.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And so this is a really common thing that we all face. And when you get to the point where you are, where you're sort of at the end of your rope, you care about this person, you feel guilty about being tough with them. They get defensive when you are. You have to change your strategy. And I relate to this, Brooke, deeply because I remember when Chris left the restaurant business, he was a shell of himself, complete problem with alcohol, and just devastated because he had not provided, he felt he had failed in his career. And I looked at him and I was like, "Number one, you got to get sober. And number two, you got to talk to a therapist. Those are non-negotiable."
--:-- Brooke: Yeah, that's—I'm sorry, I don't want to cut you off at all, but I really feel like he needs to see a therapist for several different reasons clearly. And I don't see him being too receptive of that either. There was a time where you talked a little bit about it, but I just—he's very close-minded right now. And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to turn that into a different direction with what you were saying, but I did want to throw that in there. That's very important too.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It is very important. And this is where your strategy can change. You ready?
--:-- Brooke: Yeah, I'm ready.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You've paid all the bills for how long? For two years, I guess, technically. I mean, even when he was working, you weren't contributing too much. You've been paying the bills for two years. How does it make you feel to have all that responsibility on your shoulders?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, in one way, it makes me feel good because I am getting it accomplished, but I feel like he's taken advantage of.
--:-- Brooke: I can see why you feel that way, Brooke. And I want you to hold that thought because I have a lot more that I want to say, but I got to take a quick pause real quick. And we need to hear a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back with Brooke. And we're going to talk more about the strategy she needs to use, what she needs to say exactly to her boyfriend and how she can help her boyfriend and herself get into a better place. Stay with us.
--:-- [Advertisement break]
--:-- Mel Robbins: Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins and I'm here with Brooke and let's just get right back into it, Brooke. So one of the things that I want you to change is you need to have a conversation with them and you need to say, "I can't do the work for you, but it is breaking my heart to watch you struggle and in my opinion, not see you taking the proactive steps to change this. And so I have new boundaries that I need to express for myself. And that is, if this relationship's going to work, you must go to therapy once a week for three months. Because I believe that the reason why you're not flourishing is because you have PTSD from being incarcerated or you are struggling with depression. And if I don't see you take the proactive steps of going to counseling for the next three months, once a week, then this is not going to work and you're going to have to move out. I will pay for it, but you have to be willing to meet me halfway because I can't stand by and watch somebody I love self-destructing. And I've given you two years to try to figure it out on your own. And what your behavior has communicated to me is that you're not capable of doing this on your own. And that's okay. You need a ladder to help you climb out of this hole. So I'm going to tell you what that ladder is."
--:-- And I personally agree with you. I think it is therapy, but I don't want to shove that down your throat, Brooke. So what is one behavior change that you could say to him? "I can't make you do it. I am not going to force you to do it. I'm not going to guilt you into doing it. I'm just going to express a very clear boundary. We are not going to be together if you don't do this thing."
--:-- Brooke: I don't really know. I guess I would like to see him, you know, seeking out at least one thing that will be the start of helping. And I'm not sure what that first step would be, whether it is to seek some professional help.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I think you do know. Tell me, what is it? See, because here's the thing. We all make the mistake of being like, "I want you to start working toward it." That's not specific. You actually have to create a structured thing that he needs to check the box on because while he won't do it for himself, the relationship is important to him. So he will do it for you because you have expressed this boundary.
--:-- Brooke: I don't know if that's true or not.
--:-- Mel Robbins: But what do you mean? You don't know if it's true or not. That's where the toxic part comes in because I honestly, like, I just feel like when we have conversations, like, cause I have kind of approached this similarly to him before.
--:-- Brooke: And he'll say like, "Well this is what this..." We had broken up for a short time recently.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Did he leave and pack up and leave the house?
--:-- Brooke: Well, it took him a while to pack up until I forced him out. But then I regretted it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And why did you regret it?
--:-- Brooke: Because of my own toxic traits. I want him back. I don't want to be alone. And I started getting scared because he's talking to somebody else and it really freaked me out. And I do feel like I love him. I just don't know.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And then he throws in my face because he came back and sometimes he'll be like, "Well, this is... I don't know. I need to figure myself out. I told you I need to work on myself." But he's not working on himself. That's not what that means. When we broke up, he wasn't working on himself. He was trying to get into another relationship with somebody who's 10 years younger than him. And his dad lives just shortly down the road. And that's where he was supposed to be residing. And he wasn't. He was out all the time, wasn't sleeping hardly. He was really a mess. And then showing up here unannounced and breaking my heart over again and being callous and mean.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I feel like, I know this is bad. He's not breaking your heart. You're breaking your heart.
--:-- Brooke: [emotional] Why does that make me emotional?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Because I know that's true. I feel like I've abandoned myself. I've listened to one of your podcasts about the attachment theories. I'm definitely the anxiety version of those. He's the avoidant. And I say sorry a million times and I just feel like I need him to love me. And I've been just not being very nice to myself in the process of that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: When it becomes more important for somebody else to love you than it is for you to love yourself, you're in a really toxic dynamic. And I want to commend you on something. I think deep down, you know this. And what actually scares you is you're starting to tap back into your self-worth and realize that you're better than this dynamic and you deserve better than this dynamic. And it scares you because you've never been in a relationship with yourself or with somebody else where there's been a healthy dynamic. And I would imagine, I'm willing to guess, that you are attracted to men who are not available because this is what was present in your childhood. Is that true?
--:-- Brooke: I'm not sure exactly. I have looked into that and I'm sure that it is.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, which one of your parents do you chase more in terms of wanting affection or approval?
--:-- Mel Robbins: And did she feel like she wasn't that available?
--:-- Brooke: Yeah, she did. She was there, but she was kind of like me as a mom right now, which I feel guilty about. She kind of cared more about her shows. When my parents got a divorce, she really wasn't emotionally present and she was always tougher with her words. My dad actually had left the relationship, but he gives me the world now. And I just am still trying to get that relationship back with my mom. And I hate to say that because she'll probably watch this and she's been really trying to express to me lately that she's sorry that that's happening again now because of her own personal struggles. And right now, personally, I'm not affected by that. I do understand that. I'm an adult now and I see things differently and I love her dearly. And she's doing a marvelous job.
--:-- Mel Robbins: How is the dynamic with your boyfriend similar to what it was like when your mom wasn't available?
--:-- Brooke: I mean, I guess I can only really talk about how I feel with how it is currently because I don't know. But with my boyfriend, I feel like I'm constantly just trying to be so great. And then he's going to turn and be like, "Oh, wow, you're so great. And I love you. You're so great. I see what you did. And I see how great you are to me. And I see you in general, and I love you." And I just feel like I'm constantly just trying to do that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You are. That's why it's not enough. You're in a relationship where you're chasing somebody who is not available and who resents you for what you need and who is in so much pain and in such a hole that he can't possibly give you what you need right now. And you just keep telling yourself, so many of us fall into this trap, "Okay, well, if I just try harder, if I just do this, or if I just do the other thing, then it's going to be okay. And then he's going to be happy. And then he's going to love me. And then it's going to be good. And then he's not going to want that woman who's 10 years younger." And you probably know that he slept with her anyway while you guys were broken up. And it's technically a breakup, so it didn't really matter. And even though it breaks your heart, you don't really talk about it. Is this the life that you want?
--:-- Brooke: No, it's not. And life is too short. It's just too short. I see the photos of your best friend on the wall behind you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What was her name?
--:-- Mel Robbins: And what did she die of?
--:-- Brooke: An overdose.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What would Molly tell you right now?
--:-- Brooke: She always told me to get out of this relationship and that I deserve so much better. It's just so confusing and I just don't know.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It's not confusing. It's not confusing at all. You either deserve better or you think you don't. Brooke, which is it?
--:-- Brooke: I deserve better.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And if you are acting... Let's just, I want you to close your eyes. Okay. Close your eyes. And together we're going to travel forward in your mind two years. So two years from now, it's a beautiful spring day. This relationship is behind you or not. You get to choose. It is the future you. And you have spent two years, Brooke, really healing yourself, putting yourself first, and taking actions every single day that show you that you believe you deserve the best, that you love yourself, and that your heart is worth protecting, that you come first. Tell me what your life looks like. You're waking up. What does life look like for the future Brooke, two years from now?
--:-- Brooke: I have no idea now. Oh my gosh, I don't even know. I can't even picture that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yes, you do. Come on, let's picture it together. Imagine that I'm there with you.
--:-- Brooke: I feel like I would feel a lot lighter, first of all. I would wake up a lot earlier and not feel like I have something to look forward to. I would probably be a lot more successful in my career. And I don't know.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yes, you do.
--:-- Brooke: I would just be happy and proud of myself, I feel.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What do you see yourself doing that you're not doing now that makes you proud?
--:-- Brooke: I would be more present with my son. And I would probably be more present with my friends that I have now that I don't really engage in as much. I would show up more for myself.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What does that look like? Give me an example of how you're not showing up for yourself right now.
--:-- Brooke: I wouldn't have days where I just feel lazy and lay in bed all day binge-watching television shows to escape my life. I feel that's one thing I would definitely be not doing. I don't know.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yes, you do. Stop saying you don't know. You just painted a very clear picture. Can I tell you what you just reflected back?
--:-- Mel Robbins: You'd get up earlier. You would be more present with your son. You would not lay in bed all day and waste the day binge-watching TV. You would be more successful. You would be proud of yourself. And you would probably wake up and have a day full of things that you were doing, whether it was volunteering or going to do something with your son or spending time with those friends that you don't spend time with right now because you spend all your time trying to fix this guy that doesn't want to be fixed. Fixing him will not fix you. You are perfect and lovable exactly how you are. And you deserve to have somebody in your life that sees that and that wants to grow with you. And I can't do this for you. I can tell you that if you break up with him, he will find somebody else. Because he needs it. And only you can decide, Brooke, whether or not you deserve to put yourself first. And I guarantee Molly is sitting there going, "Girl, break up with him." And what you don't know, because you've never experienced this, is "Will I be able to put myself first? Will I be okay if I'm alone?" And here's my answer to that. You're alone right now. Just because you have a man living in your house who you're paying for doesn't mean you're in a relationship. You are lonely. You do not see your friends. You have isolated yourself. And you have put all of your worth into this guy somehow transforming and giving you something he doesn't have to give right now. And I can tell you that with certainty because his actions demonstrate that.
--:-- Brooke: I agree. I agree 100%.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So what do you see as the next right step?
--:-- Brooke: I would probably want to approach it again with him just to see. I just get so confused because he does do some kind, loving things. So I want to approach this again with him maybe about...
--:-- Mel Robbins: What does that mean?
--:-- Brooke: I think I want to tell him like, I want to set that boundary and make it real.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Let's role play. I'm going to be him. All right, you ready?
--:-- Mel Robbins: [as boyfriend] So how did that thing go with Mel? Did she tell you to break up with me?
--:-- Brooke: Yep, she did.
--:-- Mel Robbins: [as boyfriend] No, I'm just kidding. I knew it. I knew that bitch was going to do that. I don't know how to do this, Mel. I'm so sorry. You're probably not going to want to air this. This is terrible.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It's not about whether it's good or bad. You and I are practicing, okay?
--:-- Brooke: I just feel so incapable of everything. Just not really good.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You know how you change that? You try. You have to stop letting the feeling dictate what you do. You have to visualize a happier, more confident Brooke and let her guide you right now. And it's okay to write it down and read it to him.
--:-- Brooke: That's probably what I would have to do.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, let's rehearse this. Let's go. What is the boundary?
--:-- Brooke: I love you, first and foremost. I just feel that I can't sit here anymore and watch you not be your greatest self. I know that you are capable and have done some very amazing things. And I feel you're not showing up right now as that version of yourself for yourself or for me. And I want to be in this relationship. It means very much to me, but I am struggling with you not being a part of this with me together. I feel we are on a team right now because of whatever it is that you are going through that's allowing for you to be this... See, I see a lot of words. I say a lot of words. Is this going okay?
--:-- Mel Robbins: I think you're doing fantastic. Just keep talking from your heart. What is it? Tell me.
--:-- Brooke: [as herself, then as boyfriend] Well, I get that. So what do I need to do?
--:-- Mel Robbins: [as boyfriend] What do you mean? What's happening?
--:-- Brooke: [as herself] I would really like for you to find a job and start working.
--:-- Mel Robbins: [as boyfriend] I've been looking for a job.
--:-- Brooke: [as herself] Where?
--:-- Mel Robbins: [as boyfriend] I'm applying online.
--:-- Brooke: [as herself] Oh, okay. Well, have you had anybody reach out to you?
--:-- Mel Robbins: [as boyfriend] No.
--:-- Brooke: [as herself] What can you do about that then? What is it that you can do to put yourself in a position where that's... I don't know what to say. I feel like it's something like that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, my gosh. I'll tell you why it kind of went off the rails. Okay. Because looking for a job is not something specific. And he's been doing it for two years and it has not worked. Right. Or he does DoorDash, but he doesn't DoorDash. You can pick and choose your schedule in that job. Why would you not tell him that he needs to go to therapy for three months once a week? Because that's what you actually want. And that's what you think would make a difference.
--:-- Brooke: That's what I was going to say first. I really was. And I just, I'm scared to say that because I feel like it's not my right.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Bullshit. Bullshit. It is your... Hold on a second, Brooke. You're paying the fucking bills. He is living with you. You have let this slide for two fucking years. And I'm going to tell you something else. Maybe he needs you to be stronger than he is. Maybe he needs you to say, "I see something better for you. And I'm not going to fucking sit here and watch you flush your life down the toilet. And you clearly have bigger issues than I can help you with. So you either get your fucking ass in therapy and I will pay for it and you're going to go every week for three fucking months because you're worth it. And you need somebody to help you sort out that bullshit in your head that you're telling yourself that's keeping you down and keeping you isolated from me and keeping you acting like this. There is a better man inside. And by God, I'm not going to let my son be influenced by somebody who will not pick himself up and do the work. If you can make it through jail for eight fucking years, you can go to a therapist's office once a goddamn week while I pay for it. And you want to know something else? I don't trust you, so I am going to drive you there. And if you're unwilling to do that, you don't deserve to be here with my son. And I am not going to stand here and watch you continue to spiral. I care so much about you that I am willing to say goodbye to you. But what I am not willing to do is sit here and watch you self-destruct."
--:-- Brooke: Really great. I want to be you. That was wonderful.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, you have to get angry.
--:-- Brooke: Yeah. You perked up when I said your son. So what was it about the example that he is giving to your son that actually lit a fire under your ass, Brooke?
--:-- Mel Robbins: He's being influenced. That's the male role model. He doesn't have a biological father. He is being around us all the time. He lives with me. And he is my world. His name's Oakley, too, by the way.
--:-- Brooke: Oh, how old is Oakley?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Eight.
--:-- Brooke: This is pivotal years right now.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I know.
--:-- Brooke: Oakley is watching.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, then fucking do something about it.
--:-- Brooke: I have to. I really have to. I don't know why I allowed myself to do this.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I tell you why. I tell you why, honey. And this is where self comes in. None of what you're doing is a choice. You are stuck in old patterns based on your childhood. You're scared to death of people leaving you. And your feelings and your fears are making you so hesitant. And the other reason why this is not a choice is you deeply believe you're not worthy of love. And so you don't know how to act as though you deserve it. And so if you want to be me, use me as an avatar. And when you start to get those feelings coming up in your body, like "I can't do this," just be like, "What the fuck would Mel say?" This is your life, Brooke. So you got to decide what's right for you. But I will tell you, if you stay in that feeling emotional space of "I can't do this, I don't know what to say," you're just going to continue to have the same thing. But if you want something different, you got to show up and act in a different way. And since you don't know how to do this for yourself, that's okay. Your "why" becomes bigger than you. It's about your son. It's about being that fucking mama bear. And it's about saying both, "I love my son so much. And I love you, by the way, that I'm breaking the fucking chain in this dynamic right now. And since you can't do it, I'm going to tell you what's required." Does your son deserve a man in his life that will go to therapy for three fucking months to get help?
--:-- Brooke: Absolutely. Yes.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, I mean, yes, the person who really probably deserves someone who doesn't have... Personally, I think we should all be in therapy. There's nothing wrong with it. If you can afford it, it's the best fucking thing on the planet. You got somebody that is completely objective listening to you go on and on, and then they give you strategies. In fact, if we all talked to a therapist every week, we wouldn't have the problems we have because we'd be sorting through them and working on it and taking steps proactively to make ourselves happier, more fulfilled. Everybody deserves this. I wish it were universal that we all had access to this. So it's not that he needs it. It's also that he'll benefit from it and your son will benefit from the example and you will benefit from sticking up for yourself. You have to remove the love piece from this. I'm serious. You're getting so caught up in the emotion of "Does somebody love me? Am I worthy?" Bullshit. If this were your son, would you want him to go to therapy?
--:-- Brooke: Absolutely. I have to go to therapy too.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So you get to say, Brooke, because you pay the bills, you get to say what happens next. "I love you. I'm not going to stand for this. I love my son too much to continue this dynamic, this broken dynamic. And you must see a therapist once a fucking week because it's the only thing I can measure. And if you're not willing to do that, this is never going to work. And you might as well move out." You've asked him for two fucking years to get a job. Do not ask him that. That's not working. What are your takeaways from this?
--:-- Brooke: Well, first, I feel like you've painted a picture that I do feel in my soul very clearly for me to digest. And I do feel very much more confident in going in the direction of... I really like that we are going in the direction of the therapy as the ultimatum, because I believe that's the most appropriate approach. I'm going to do that. I feel confident in doing that. I feel confident in that for many reasons.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Can I say something that I think will make you feel better? Instead of the word "ultimatum," you're giving him a choice. He makes the choice. You're telling him he has two choices. Choice one is accept the gift and the request that you get support once a week for the next three months, which I will pay for. And choice two is this doesn't work because it hasn't for a long time. And so you are empowering him to choose. That's what a boundary is. It's your line. You know, I remember when Chris was really struggling and I finally said to him, "The doctor has recommended that you take medication for depression." And even though Chris leads men's retreats and he's a hospice volunteer and is in all this counseling and psychology and coaching and never ever had any issue with me taking medication, the second he was told he probably should do it, all of a sudden he thinks it means he's weak. And I did give my choice. I'm like, "This is not going to work if you don't try that medication for a year." And he got to make the choice. And you can give him a deadline, but you're going to have to hold him to it. How do you feel in the framing of it as you are presenting option A or option B?
--:-- Brooke: I think that's... I feel good about that. I feel like it'll tell me my answer.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yeah. Like if you ever want to know what somebody is actually committed to, close your ears and don't listen to a damn thing they say. Watch what they do.
--:-- Brooke: And that scares me a little bit, but I feel like it's time to put my big girl pants on and deal with whatever he chooses because he does have the right and I'm giving him the option to choose. And what he chooses is going to tell me what I can invest in for any much more time, because my time's valuable.
--:-- Mel Robbins: That's right, Brooke. You're having this conversation, not as Brooke, but as Oakley's mother. And it's time you put Oakley first. He deserves more. He needs his mother. And this is a win for him either way. Because he either sees his mother stand up and have the strength to support a man in getting into therapy and healing and holding him to it. Or he sees a mom who cares so much about him that she does not tolerate bullshit like this. And so if you go in as Mama Bear Brooke and you're doing this for Oakley, it's a win-win either way. Because he either sees you change a relationship and stick up for yourself and he feels the love and the safety from you. Or he sees the same thing.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love you.
--:-- Brooke: I love you too, Mel. I believe in you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Thank you. And I want to also come back to this point that sometimes in life, the people that we think we're helping actually need the push. Because just like you're trapped in your own past patterns of feeling and emotion, he is too. That doesn't mean you let him off. It actually means that you see higher potential. So you're going to raise the fucking bar for both of you. You're doing this for you and Oakley and you're doing it for him. And he'll make his choice as to whether or not he can raise the bar too. And he might not. And that's okay.
--:-- Brooke: Right. I'll be okay.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You're going to be more than okay, honey. You're going to be fucking fantastic. What are you thinking?
--:-- Brooke: I just feel good. I'm so grateful. I feel like I could take over the world right after this.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, you know, the fear is going to be there and you're going to have the conversation anyway. And the feelings are going to be there, Brooke, and you're going to feel overwhelmed and you're going to talk through them. And I would highly recommend that you put down some bullets on a piece of paper. Why are you having this conversation?
--:-- Brooke: This is a really important bullet. Because it's impacting Oakley and myself and him too as a person. It's time to get this process started. He needs to start his healing process and I will respect that and I understand that and I'll support it. But I want to see it actually starting and actually being a real thing. Not, you know, "Sorry, I didn't do well with the bullet part thing."
--:-- Mel Robbins: But Brooke, stop making yourself wrong. You did amazing. Because here's the thing. The second that you're willing to let him walk out the door, you have opened up the door to a whole new you. You need to stop trying to keep him. You got to be willing to let someone leave. Because the second that you're willing to let him walk out that door, he is now free to choose whether or not he's going to stay and show up. You said it beautifully. "I got to do this for me. I deserve someone who is growing with me and who can accept my support and who is taking responsibility for their own stuff. And the only way I'm going to know that these things are handled is if I see you going to therapy once a week with a professional to get the support you deserve." That's it.
--:-- Brooke: That was great. You're great.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh my gosh. And here's the other thing I want you to understand, Brooke. Expect to feel uncomfortable. Expect to cry. You're feeling excited now. I promise you, the second he walks back and he's like, "Whatever," you're going to be like... Expect it, because then you won't be as freaked out when the emotions flood.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I think I should do this right now.
--:-- Brooke: Wow. Okay. Oh boy.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Because otherwise, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. If he doesn't immediately be like, "I'm in," that's kind of your answer. If he's like, "I got to think about it," be like, "Great. We're going to have breakfast tomorrow morning and you're going to tell me whether you're going to start your healing somewhere else with somebody else or if you're going to accept this gift I'm giving you and this request I'm making." That's it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I've got to raise the game here. We're going to play a bigger game. Do you have any questions, any other questions or concerns or anything else that's rattling around?
--:-- Brooke: Should I have the conversation now?
--:-- Mel Robbins: No, I don't think so. Other than, I mean, if you want to, you know, I'll bet you we can meet weekly and we can—I'm just kidding.
--:-- Brooke: Oh, my goodness.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, I will meet weekly. I'm here every Monday and every Thursday for you. And it always feels so good.
--:-- Well, what's happening is—see, I think everybody on the planet wants one thing. You want to live a life where you feel like your best and your truest self. Every one of us, we all just want to live our lives feeling like we can express our best, truest selves. That's it. That's it.
--:-- And so does your boyfriend, by the way. We don't want to give up the stuff that feels good that we're doing that are self-destructive. That's the bitch. That's the bitch. That's the bitch.
--:-- But here's the thing. You're also doing this because you know it doesn't feel good for him to live like this. Right? You're not trying to fix him. You are holding up a light and saying there is a bigger possibility here. And your actions have demonstrated that you're not going to do that on your own. That's it.
--:-- Okay. You're going to do great. Remember, Molly and I and everybody listening are your guardian angels holding up the light. You can do this. I promise you. You can do this and I want to know how it goes.
--:-- Brooke: Okay. Okay. Thank you so much.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love you. I'm really proud of you. And Oakley's a really lucky little guy to have such an awesome mom.
--:-- Brooke: Thank you, Mel.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You're welcome, darling.
--:-- [Mel addresses the audience directly]
--:-- Mel Robbins: I hope that our conversation today has been a wake-up call for you too. That you've got the tools now to spot those moments where you're being used, or where you're just in a situation where the people around you are used to things the old way and you now are tapping into something greater for yourself.
--:-- And what's exciting about seeing a bigger vision for your own life is that it does elevate what you see in terms of the potential in people that you love. And that's a really good thing.
--:-- But remember, when you're the one that wants to change the situation, it's your responsibility to lay out the plan that is specific that gets you there. And I think one of the biggest things that I want both you and I to remember is that people aren't in our lives so that we can grip onto them. We're also not meant to be everybody's caretakers.
--:-- Just because the situation works for somebody else doesn't mean you got to continue to tolerate it. You can demand higher standards for yourself. And then you got to be willing to let somebody walk out the door. You got to be willing to let them say, "I'm not ready to heal. I'm not ready to do that. I don't want to do that. Fuck you." That's okay.
--:-- Because when you let somebody walk out the door, you actually open up a whole new possibility for you. Because these conversations are not really about changing somebody else. It's about changing you. It's about you practicing the highest and the most courageous self-expression. It's about you requesting what you need in your life.
--:-- And when you do that from a place of love for yourself, for those around you, and even for the person that you're laying this choice out for, trust me, everything works out exactly how it's meant to. Because you are raising the game for yourself. And I love that when you do that.
--:-- And a final note: being used. You're only being used if you allow it. I mean, come on now. I didn't really say this to Crystal or Brooke, but you're allowing shit if you continue to sit in the situation. You got two feet. You can walk out the door. You will be just fine on your own.
--:-- But if you're staying in something that doesn't work and you know it, you're not being used because you're participating in it. It's time to level up your own ass. And maybe that means you're the one that's supposed to walk out the door. Boom. That's the door shutting behind you. That sound good?
--:-- All right. In case nobody else tells you, I believe in you. I do. I know you can do this. You can raise the game. And I love you. I love you for so many things. And go do it. Okay? Put yourself first. I'll talk to you in a few days. You're awesome.
--:-- Oh, one more thing. It's the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.
