--:-- Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to a very open and intimate episode of the Mel Robbins Podcast. I have been so looking forward to this conversation today because I know that I am going to learn something today.
--:-- What are we talking about? We're talking about relationships and how to create open, trusting relationships. I wanted to do this show because so many of you have been writing in and asking questions, in particular about how it is that I have such an open relationship with our three adult kids.
--:-- Look, I just want to start by saying I am not a perfect parent. Chris and I have screwed a tremendous amount of things up as it relates to raising three kids. But one of the things that I'm really proud of is we do have a very open relationship with our two daughters and our son. I love that. And it's taken a lot of work.
--:-- A lot of you have noticed that, whether you were listening to the episode that I did with our 17-year-old son, Oakley, about self-hatred and self-acceptance, or you heard the episode with our daughter, Kendall, who's 22. That was the episode where you got to listen in on a conversation that happened live, where she had just literally found out that somebody that she had been hooking up with was now interested in someone else. So we processed that disappointment together and let you listen in on it.
--:-- I even had a conversation with our daughter who's 23, Sawyer, about how do you have fun as a family? How do you break apart those family dynamics? One thing that I noticed is that so many of you appreciated those episodes with our adult kids because you shared them with your family members. That enabled you to connect more deeply. It allowed your kids to open up with you. I just love that.
--:-- So I thought, why don't we get together as a family and answer your questions? Your questions ranged from, "Are your kids really that open?" to "How do you create that level of honesty and trust?" And more importantly, "How do I get my kids to open up to me, particularly if they're not?"
--:-- Instead of taking a guess at how you should do that, I thought, why not ask the experts in this case about what parents should do? I probably shouldn't call my kids experts because they're not. They're 23, they're 22, they're 17. They certainly have their flaws. One of them is that they swear. I wanted to put that disclaimer right at the top: you are listening to young adults. There are some four-letter words. Not a whole lot in here, honestly, but there are some. In case you have little ears, I wanted to give you that warning.
--:-- I just figured it might be kind of cool if my husband, Chris, our daughter, Sawyer, our daughter, Kendall, and our son, Oakley, pile onto a big couch at our house here in Vermont, and we ask you to join us as we answer the questions that you've submitted.
--:-- So I'm sitting here with my husband, Chris, of 26 years. He is our rock. He's our spiritual center.
--:-- Chris: You're the foundation. You're the core of the earth. We just revolve around you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yeah, clearly.
--:-- Oakley: Except Oakley's Pluto.
--:-- Kendall: What the fuck?
--:-- Chris: Let me introduce Mel Robbins. She is our tornado.
--:-- Sawyer: Oh, our whirlwind.
--:-- Chris: Our fun seeker. Our beautiful tornado. And of course, my wife. Thank you for bringing us all together.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Sawyer, how about you introduce your sister Kendall?
--:-- Sawyer: Okay. So we have here the middle devil child, Kendall Robbins. She is an amazing singer. Very dedicated, very beautiful. We love her. Let's give it up for Kendall Robbins.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, Kendall is how old are you?
--:-- Sawyer: Oh, she's 22. And 18 months younger than me. Thank God.
--:-- Kendall: Hello everybody. My name is Kendall. Thank you for that lovely intro, Sawyer. To my right we have mini Chris. He actually doesn't have his own personality quite yet. He's trying to steal everything from my dad. Okay, 17, born on St. Paddy's Day. He is an amazing brother. He is the most mature, in touch, intelligent, just kind man I've ever met at his age. I don't just say that because I'm biased, because trust me, I hated him for a very long time. However, we've crossed that bridge. But this is Oakley. He's 17. He's great. And he's going to introduce Sawyer.
--:-- Oakley: Hi guys, I'm Oakley. Kendall, thank you for that wonderful introduction. To my left, Sawyer Robbins. 23, right?
--:-- Sawyer: I am, in fact, older than Kendall, as no one notices.
--:-- Oakley: Anyway, she's 23. She's graduated from college, BC. Huge. Her favorite color is blue.
--:-- Sawyer: Do you know what I do for a living?
--:-- Oakley: I don't know if I should reveal your personal information.
--:-- Sawyer: Dude, reveal it. That's totally fine. My social security number is—
--:-- Oakley: Sawyer lives in South Boston. She's working at a cybersecurity company.
--:-- Sawyer: I'll take it from here. Please do.
--:-- Oakley: Sawyer is the most hardworking person next to my mom, I would say.
--:-- Sawyer: Dad, we love you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay. Good job, everybody, on the intros. So here's what I want to start with. So many people have remarked about the openness that you guys have all displayed on various episodes of the podcast. The first place that I want to start is that we have a listener that wrote this question in: "Mel, are your kids really that open? Or was that just them being that way for the podcast taping?" Sawyer, why don't you tackle that one?
--:-- Sawyer: To answer the question point blank, yes, definitely very open. I tell them almost everything. I consider myself extremely open. I tell them anything from work to friend problems to boyfriend issues, etc. But I am actually the least open when compared to my siblings, simply because I choose what I share with them. That is a lot, but not every single detail.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Why do you share stuff with us?
--:-- Sawyer: Growing up, we always had a very open relationship. One of the core things that you both instilled in all of us is you will never ever get in trouble for telling the truth. If we were telling you completely upfront and honestly what we were doing, where we were going, who we were going with, or what is going on in our lives, then regardless of what it was, we would never be punished for that.
--:-- I will always remember I had an incident with my first time drinking. I drank a whole handle of vodka and I'm the oldest, so that was my first rodeo. I woke up in the morning and I was petrified, puke all over myself, sleeping on the window bench. I thought I was just toast. I thought I was dead meat. I was so scared. Then we all sat down in the screened in porch and they both said to me, "We will never punish you for something that we also did as kids." After you guys said that, I just felt so much more at ease.
--:-- My punishment that day was actually going to a lacrosse tryout, which I yakked at several times. But then I looked at my other friends who would get in trouble for drinking or for doing things we weren't allowed to, and they would immediately be grounded. That just kind of put a huge barrier between them and their parents, which was: let's be sneaky, let's steal, let's sneak out, let's go to parties and lie about where we are. From very early on, you both were very vocal about as long as you are honest, you will not get in trouble. I think that just eliminated the barrier between us completely.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I think a lot of parents say that. I think that is every parent's throwaway line. "Hey, as long as you tell me the truth, you're not going to get in trouble. As long as you call me, you're not getting in trouble." And then in the tsunami of emotions, when you get the call that your kid is blacked out or there's been a huge party or the police showed up, most parents freak out and then ground or punish.
--:-- Sawyer: No, I disagree.
--:-- Mel Robbins: For you to say that every parent out there just makes a blanket statement that says, "Just tell us the truth and you'll be fine." No way. That is one of the secrets, the keys to the kingdom: inviting that truth telling, because most people don't.
--:-- Sawyer: I agree. I actually think that it was unspoken in a lot of my friends' households growing up that if you tell us the truth, you won't get in trouble. But there was a difference between what they were saying and what they were doing. The parents want you to tell the truth, but they're still going to punish you. You guys want us to tell the truth, but you're not going to punish us. You actually do what you say you're going to do as parents.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Mel, is that what your parents told you? Because I didn't get that from my parents. The message to me was it takes a long time to build trust and it takes two seconds to shatter the trust. So, Mel, what's one thing that you think you got right as a parent?
--:-- Well, my number one goal as a parent, and I know it's your goal too, Chris, was to get you kids to come and talk to me and dad about the important topics in your life. I always thought if you're 13, 14, 15 or 16, it's way better to talk through something you're thinking about or worried about with adults who will listen to you than going to other 14, 15 or 16 year olds that don't know what the hell they're doing. Kendall, you're nodding at me. Do you want to add something to this?
--:-- Kendall: I agree with that. I also have such an open relationship with my parents, arguably too open.
--:-- Sawyer: Definitely too open.
--:-- Kendall: Yeah, don't take notes from me. I turned out fine, sort of. But what I was going to say is you were just saying it's so much better for kids at that age to go to their parents who will listen to them rather than their dipshit friends. But that's the issue: parents don't listen.
--:-- My definition of listen, as you guys have defined what listen means to me, is internalizing what we're saying. Parents all around the world can just listen to their kid be like, "I really want to go to this party tonight," or "Can I please—" whatever it may be. "Oh, I got too drunk at this party," or "Oh, I slept with someone before I was ready." There's a difference between hearing what they're saying and actually listening and internalizing how it's making them feel.
--:-- Every time we told you guys something as kids, you would actually empathize with us and hear us and internalize it. In doing that, you were able to loosen the reins a little bit and let us fuck up and let us fail. Instead of being like, "You're stupid, you're being punished, that was dumb," you were like, "Let's talk about it. How is it making you feel?"
--:-- Mel Robbins: So you're saying in these conversations that we were having as you were growing up, you had that sense of feeling heard.
--:-- Kendall: Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
--:-- Chris: [Emotional] Oh, my dad is born. I hate when you cry. I really wasn't planning on this.
--:-- Kendall: But no, totally. I feel like most kids don't talk to their parents because their parents don't hear them and don't listen to them. So why would they?
--:-- Oakley: I think a lot of my friends, for example, whenever they would want to go on a trip or go to a party or do anything they want to do, they already knew in the back of their head that their parents didn't want them to or were going to say no. They go into the conversation to talk about that and express how they're feeling. As a kid, I think we all come from the exact same scenario where we want to explain why we want to go to this thing or why we should be able to do this.
--:-- But on the other end, the parents, like Kendall said, may be listening, but they already have an answer in the back of their head. Their mind is made up. There's no room for conversation or changing. When kids go into conversations with parents who immediately make up their mind and do not allow for any sort of alterations or changes to the plan, then you're just set up for failure. Then it just turns into sneakiness and hatred and all that stuff.
--:-- Kendall: Yeah, resentment.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Parents and children should not obviously be equal. Parents need to have a little bit of authority over children. But what I really appreciated most—
--:-- Kendall: Yeah, for sure.
--:-- Mel Robbins: At the end of the day, I always felt as a child like you're equal.
--:-- Kendall: What does that mean? Because I don't think dad and I ever bought into the parenting philosophy of being your friends.
--:-- Mel Robbins: If I had to summarize the way that we think about parenting, I think about parenting as though our job is to help you figure out who you are. That means learning how to think through decisions, learning how to come to terms with your own values, learning the weight of the consequences of decisions. The whole point of parenting is for you to grow up and leave, go find somebody that you love as much as dad and I love one another, go build a family, and become more of who you are. We were always focused on connection first, correction dead last.
--:-- Sawyer: I feel like I'm so open because you guys were so open with me. I feel like I could go to you guys, I could ask you guys something about your life and you'd tell me. There was nothing that you really hid from me. Maybe there was, or maybe I was just so young that I didn't really ask, but you were very open, which was super nice. I also felt like you guys had my back 100% of the time, no matter what.
--:-- For example, I went to camp for a month and I got bullied. My mom found out about it and she took me out a week early. That felt really nice because it showed that she cared about how I was feeling, she understood that, and she acted upon it. That was really helpful for me. It showed that she has my back. And she continued to show me that throughout the rest of my life.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, that makes me feel so good knowing that you feel that way about me, Oak. Thanks.
--:-- I guess what I'm gathering from this is that it really is about seeking connection with you guys. That required us to learn how to listen. It required us to learn how to hear your points of view, even though oftentimes what you were saying was stupid or immature or dangerous or rational or emotional. Still, to respect you enough to listen.
--:-- We always had guardrails. There was nothing that you were going to do that was going to be dangerous. We weren't going to let you do anything that was self-destructive or destructive to other people. There's nothing that we were ever going to allow you to do or be in a situation that could be dangerous, deadly, or discriminatory against other people. So while it might not have seemed like it, there were guardrails there. The guardrails were things that dad and I are very, very intense about.
--:-- Kendall: I think that your guardrails are around morals and who we are as human beings, not behavioral.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Can you give an example?
--:-- Kendall: Be a kind person. Hold the door for people. Say thank you. Ask the waiter's name. You never put up guardrails that were activities or experiences or things we do. It's how we are within those experiences where the guardrails are.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oakley, what about you? Did you feel like if you told the truth, we were going to listen?
--:-- Oakley: Yeah. Whenever we told the truth, we wouldn't get in trouble, which was definitely reinstated. Whenever we were able to tell the truth and be honest, you'd tell us what we did wrong and you'd tell us why it was wrong, but you wouldn't punish us. You would just talk us through it. But if we lied and we didn't tell you—I'm trying to think if there was anything where I lied to you guys or didn't tell you guys something. I can't think off the top of my head. I can't think of anything. But there were definitely times where I would lie or I wouldn't tell you the truth and I would get in trouble for that because lying is wrong and that's what you shouldn't be doing.
--:-- Kendall: By the way, I know we're going to be here a while, but could we get a bathroom break or something? I need to go.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh my God. Okay. Well, we're going to hit the pause. We'll hear from sponsors. And then how about we come back? You guys rock.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay. So I've got another question for you three. What are some do's and don'ts that you've seen either dad or I do or other parents do? Kendall, why don't we start with you?
--:-- Kendall: Let your kids figure it out themselves. Never with drinking and driving. Obviously. Honestly, if somebody is gateway drugging their way into heroin or cocaine or becoming an alcoholic at a young age, I can bet you that there is a massive lack of love and appreciation and being heard and being seen in their household. It's probably coming from their parents. Hate to call you guys out, but it's probably coming from their parents.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Hold on, Kendall, because this issue about addiction is way more complicated, particularly with your age group. There are a lot of kids that get into drugs because of a sports injury, and then they get addicted to the prescription drugs after surgery. There are also kids that struggle with mental health issues, and they reach for drugs or alcohol to try to numb out. There's all of this emerging research about how some of us have addiction running in our family like we do. Right, Chris? There's a lot of addiction that runs in this family.
--:-- Chris: Oh, yeah. I think it's a generational issue as well as a genetic one.
--:-- Mel Robbins: That genetic one is really interesting. I was just looking at a brand new study yesterday. It's groundbreaking research from Mount Sinai School of Medicine. They have figured out that there are disruptions in certain pathways of people's brains that may predispose somebody to drug addiction and that are correlated with earlier use of drugs than peers. They've just isolated this new pathway. So you're absolutely right when it comes to genetics.
--:-- I don't think, Ken, that you're saying that all parents are responsible if their kids are struggling with addiction. But what I do hear is you saying that based on you and your experience watching your peers struggle with these issues, it's clear to you that they're not talking to their parents about what's actually going on for real. Someone who struggles with addiction feels a lack of love, whether it's a lack of self-love or in some cases a lack of love from their home life. That's a huge problem that only makes things worse.
--:-- Kendall: Yes. Instead of—you find out that they're doing cocaine. That's terrifying. I can't even imagine what that's like as a parent. But instead of seeing that and having some rash, crazy reaction about "we're throwing all this out, we're putting you into this, we're putting you into therapy, blah blah blah," what I think would be more impactful is sitting their kid down and being like, "Can we—you're not getting a punishment. You're not leaving this table until we actually talk this through, because there's got to be a lot more deep seated issues than just this bag of white powder."
--:-- The issue is that parents are just so quick to be afraid of it becoming a bigger issue when the real issue is the deep seated hurt that the kid is feeling and the love that they're not getting.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I can hear how passionate you are because you've seen friends whose parents aren't addressing this head on. They're not talking about the deeper issue, whether that deeper issue is mental health or a lack of self-worth or trauma or addressing the home life issues that need to be addressed as a family in order to support their child in feeling loved and in getting healthy again.
--:-- Sawyer: I also want to add that if the parent is not the actual person to talk to, then a licensed therapist is. It's not searching the house to get rid of all the coke and the weed to make sure they don't have any, because I can assure you we're smart. We can find it anywhere.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, one thing's clear, you guys. These situations are painful and complicated. When someone you love is struggling with addiction, seeking professional help is critical. Even though we have a solid relationship with you guys, if it were one of you—or hell, Chris, you recognized that you were struggling with an addiction. You basically got help.
--:-- Chris: Yeah. I think that I thought long and hard about what I experienced growing up as a child and how my parents partied and did their thing and how it became habitual, particularly for my dad, who I'm not sure was an alcoholic, but definitely somebody who was high functioning with alcohol. It was always around. That exposure, I think, led me into forming my own habits, smoking pot and hitting the weed pen. It was daily. Therapy certainly was instrumental in helping me discover some of this and recognize that that behavior pattern was, in fact, the source of depression.
--:-- Kendall: Damn. I had no idea. I would have never guessed that. I'm actually so surprised. Looking back, I would have never guessed that you do that every single day. That's insane.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I'm just really proud of you, Chris, for getting help.
--:-- Kendall: Every one of us in this family talks to a therapist. Maybe that's why we get along.
--:-- Mel Robbins: We work our stuff out with somebody who's subjective so that we don't take it out on each other. But that's also kind of recent.
--:-- Chris: That's true.
--:-- Mel Robbins: We have not been a family who has sought out therapy years and years ago. Not that I think any of us ever felt like it was taboo, but it certainly never occurred to me. Also something maybe generational, like our own parents' generation. I don't think things like therapy even popped on the radar for people.
--:-- Chris: Well, we all got to therapy because of a breakdown and we're all doing, at least today, pretty solid. I think therapy is just a phenomenal gift that you give to yourself because you talk with an objective party about what's going on in your life instead of taking it out in real time on the people that you care about. You come up with ways to see things connecting. You get greater self-awareness. You come up with strategies and tools.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I'm glad that where we landed in terms of addressing this question is by underscoring everything by saying: look, if you're struggling with anything, seek some help. Get support. Do not try to do this on your own, period.
--:-- Whew. Okay. Shall we move on to another question?
--:-- Chris: Let's do so.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Let's do it, everybody. Let's lighten the mood.
--:-- All right. We got a question from Avery. "I'm listening to the episode where Mel talks about her daughter's love life dilemma with Kendall. I have a four-year-old daughter, and I want her to feel comfortable talking to me about these kinds of issues when she's in college. How do you raise kids who share information about their lives with you? Can you give people a tool that you could use?" Kendall, you want to take this one?
--:-- Kendall: The tool that you can use is a warm and excited and interested invitation to asking your kids about their life and showing genuine interest in their life. In that interest, it makes your kids want to tell you more in an authentic way.
--:-- Sawyer: I think continuing to ask and continuing to be interested, continuing to be welcoming is very important. But if they are not receptive, don't take that as just never asking again. Continue to ask, continue to be interested. But there are times in life when they will not want to tell you and you need to be respectful of that. I think it's when parents often overstep and won't stop asking and have to know.
--:-- Mel Robbins: That's a great point. A parent can comfortably be okay with not hearing anything in response. That silence does not need to be misinterpreted as deafening, that there's something wrong. Just that asking lets them know we're here. We want to listen. We love you. Just keep asking whether or not you get an answer. That's the answer.
--:-- Next question. I have a question from Indre. She's worried that she's going to screw up her kid by saying something or doing something wrong. She wants to know, how do you not do that?
--:-- One of the things that dad and I have done well is we have screwed up. We have said things wrong and we are not perfect, but we're really fast and good at apologizing and taking responsibility for the things that we do wrong or the things that we realize we regret in hindsight. If you realize you're just a good person and you're doing the best that you can with whatever you got in terms of your own issues and you're quick to take responsibility for them, I think it does show that you're open and that you're human and that you're trying.
--:-- I agree. Dad, do you have anything to say about that?
--:-- Chris: It is fascinating to be hearing about things that we might think we did well or didn't do well.
--:-- Kendall: Another big thing, Indre—I'm sorry if I'm saying your name wrong. Beautiful name, by the way—is honest communication. As parents, be in honest communication with each other and with your kids.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What does that mean, Kendall?
--:-- Kendall: I feel like you guys were so open and honest in your communication with us. You would always tell us what was going on or why something was happening. If we asked a question, you would always tell us. I think that watching you two be honest with one another inspires us to want to be honest with you.
--:-- Another thing under the umbrella of honest communication: I have so many vivid memories of growing up as a family, sitting around the fireplace or sitting at dinner or some gathering. You guys made such a conscious effort, whether you know it or not, to gather us as a family and to just talk about literally whatever it may be. The fireplace, wood, evergreen, mint, food, our love lives, whatever. You made such a conscious effort to gather us together and get us all talking and communicating with one another.
--:-- There were so many times when I was like, "I don't want to fucking talk to you guys for 40 minutes at the end of dinner. I want to go play Polly Pockets upstairs and chew up their clothes." But now that I'm at my age, those are the memories that I cherish the most. Those are the moments that I look forward to the most, which are the rabbit hole conversations we get down.
--:-- Making a conscious effort to talk to your kid and making it a ritualistic thing where you talk to them after dinner or you're talking to them in the car, whether they like it or not or whether they're showing they don't like it at that point—maybe they won't. But I think that they'll really appreciate that in the long run, because I know we all did.
--:-- Sawyer: I think under the umbrella of honest communication, a massive part of that is vulnerability. Watching my mom and dad grow up—literally, I've seen my dad and my mom cry and break down and not be strong and tell us what's going on in their life, how traumatic it is, how sad, how frustrating, how simple it may be. Be on the ground sobbing. For a kid, it's a little bit jarring at first to witness your most idolized person as your parent be weak. But watching our parents sit at the dinner table and bawl their eyes out because work didn't go well that day or because they had a hard conversation with a friend, being completely open and honest about it, essentially made that possible for all of us to do the same. That's really big.
--:-- Mel Robbins: When you guys talk about honest communication, most adults forget that kids are truth tellers. And you also are lie detectors. When you say honest communication, what you're saying is you trusted us because what we were saying matched your felt experience and your actions in our actions. We tried very much to make sure that if either one of us were truly upset or frustrated or disappointed or sad, that you knew that it wasn't about you. That it was something going on in our lives, that you were not to blame for negative emotions that we were feeling. Is that true, Sawyer?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yes. You were very outspoken about that. When you would be in a bad mood or something, you would make sure—even the first thing you would say when you came in the room—was, "This is not about you. This has to do with something else." And then you would continue to be a bitch, but it's fine.
--:-- Chris: We did do all right if the firstborn is actually saying that stuff. Normally it would just be the third born that would pick up on that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love you guys.
--:-- Kendall: I love you too.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So far, the takeaway for me is seek connection, because people are going to want to know the how. We're talking conceptually: connection over correction is so big. So big. You will correct your kids through connecting with them. If you want your kids to be open with you, you have to model being open with them. That doesn't mean sharing inappropriate things, because I don't think you guys should have access to the details about our marriage. That's for dad and I. But you have to model openness. You have to talk about what's going on in your life. You have to talk about your feelings. You've got to show your feelings.
--:-- Sawyer: I think that you guys showing that you are weak at times shows that you're human. It gives us more space to do that too. In being weak, in crying in front of us. I think so many parents just try to look so strong and perfect in front of their kids all the time. But by showing your kids that you are also human, it allows your kids to feel those things too as they start to grow up. I know so many of my friends, to this day as a 23-year-old, a lot of them have been like, "I have never seen my parents cry ever." Not saying that you need to walk downstairs and bawl your eyes out every goddamn day, but not showing your true emotion to your kids is sad and not real life, honestly.
--:-- Kendall: Yes. And I think that hiding that from your kids and putting on a smile every single day makes a kid feel like they can't have a bad day.
--:-- Oakley: Yeah. I'd say it's especially influential for guys. I feel like there's this stigma around men where they hide their true emotion. When you're growing up and you look toward your father, there's a huge relationship there. You learn a lot and you take a lot from your father. Of course your mother's influential, but she's not a guy, so you relate more to your dad. When you're able to see your dad cry and show weakness, that makes you feel like it's okay to do that. Whenever we were eating dinner as a kid and I saw my dad cry, I was never filled with, "Oh, it's so sad that he's crying." I was like, "I love that my dad's crying right now."
--:-- Mel Robbins: What do you love about it?
--:-- Oakley: I just love how open he is. He's able to express himself openly. I love to cry because of him. Actually because of everybody, but I love to cry.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So you see it. Do you see showing your emotion as a guy as a strength?
--:-- Oakley: Yes. A hundred percent. You can't just bottle up all your emotions every day. It's not healthy.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Is that why you're so self-aware and expressive, you think?
--:-- Oakley: Maybe. I don't know. I have no idea.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What impact has this had on you in terms of who you've become?
--:-- Oakley: I think I've definitely become a more open person because I've seen my dad be so open with us. I've had that influence from him showing me that a really respectable person is somebody who can be open and show who they are.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Have you ever cried in front of your friends?
--:-- Oakley: Oh my God, I cry everywhere.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You do?
--:-- Oakley: Not everywhere. I don't cry that much. But I can cry in front of anybody. I'm not ashamed of it. I love to cry. Crying rocks, dude. Except I'm drained after I cry.
--:-- Kendall: I can relate to that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You know, I also think that a lot of parents believe that you just got to stay strong because that is what makes kids feel safe. What I hear you saying, Oak, is that actually when you see them being human, it makes you know that you can be human too. It's like a strength.
--:-- Oakley: Yeah. A hundred percent. That's totally true. But to reiterate what Sawyer says, you're not breaking down every single night in front of your kids. If you're breaking down every so often, perfect. Amazing. You're showing that. But if you're at the dinner table crying every single night, time to go to therapy.
--:-- Kendall: Totally. It's like honest feeling and communication.
--:-- Mel Robbins: All right. Let's move on to the next question. But takeaway: don't be a dictator. Just be vulnerable. Connection over correction. Speaking of connection, I personally need to connect with a snack. So our family is going to take a break, listen to a short word for our sponsors. And we've got a really great question coming up next.
--:-- Mel Robbins: All right. Welcome back. We're still sitting here on the couch.
--:-- Chris: Yeah, we're on the couch.
--:-- Mel Robbins: OK, here we are. Had a great snack. Now we're refueled. Let's go to this question from Christy. Her daughters are teenagers and she writes: "They've stopped connecting with me the way they used to. They're often behind closed doors or staring at their phone. I'm envious of the connection that you have with your daughters in particular. How can I get my teenage daughters to open up to me?"
--:-- Kendall: First and foremost, Christy, there's going to be days when they're going to want to be locked up in their rooms on their phone. You're just going to have to keep a smiling face on, keep going, know that it's not personal at all. There's a long ass moment in all of our lives, especially as teenage girls, where your friends are more important than your family. That's just how it goes in your development. Sawyer and I have both felt that simultaneously. But something that I wouldn't say my mom and dad didn't do, but I wish they would have done more of, is had more fun with us in those ages. Made experiences happen between me, Sawyer, and my mom that both Sawyer and I would have so much fun doing. Like going to paint pottery together and then going to CPK because their food fucking slaps. Or going to the mall and going shopping. Or "Girls day, we're going to go to the pumpkin patch. And if you want to bring your friends, bring your friends." Showing that you care about your daughters and their friends, but also making time for the three of you to have fun together. Those memories will be so crystallized in their minds.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I didn't do that enough.
--:-- Sawyer: I completely agree with Kendall. As a teenage girl, I was angry and angsty. I literally sat up in my room as soon as I got home from sports, did my homework, went to bed, and then went to school. On the weekends, there was no time for family. It was just friends. That, like Kendall said, is honestly a phase in life. As they grow older, I can assure you that family does become more important, especially in college when you move away and you realize, "Oh my gosh, I'm not living with them all the time. I get to go see them." Instead of just waiting for that day to come, I completely agree with Kendall in creating experiences that you know your kids will enjoy. Especially your daughters. Creating experiences that involve their hobbies, their interests. If they like horseback riding, take them to a horseback riding show. If they like shopping, take them on a shopping trip. And including their friends in those plans.
--:-- Kendall: I think you did a really good job of that. I know I hosted a lot more than Sawyer did at our house, but both of you were so great about it. You want to be around me, but if that means I'm not going to be present with you because I'll be outside with my friends, so be it. You were so good about that. I think that's a huge thing for parents. If they want to be with their friends, and you want to be with them, letting your kids know that your house—and I know not everyone's home can accommodate lots of friends—but if you have a space where you can invite your kids to be with their friends, that's huge. They will keep bringing their friends back, like I did.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I just want to highlight that we did not have some big house. In fact, we didn't even have a basement that the kids could hang out in because it was dirt and scary and spider webby and you couldn't even stand up straight in it. We had no playroom. We didn't have some big backyard with a pool. But we did have a yard and we had a garage and the kids had bedrooms. You don't have to have a big house. If you've got a room that the friends can hang out in, if you've got a front yard or a park across the street, you've got a place for your kids and their friends to gather.
--:-- All right, here's a question from Ufe. "As a mom of two grown daughters and a son who's still at home, I feel very regretful. I wish I could have done things differently. Now I'm seeing my screw-ups play out in their lives, and it overwhelms me and brings me to my knees. I tell myself I did the best I could with what I knew, but that only gets me so far because I know in my gut I could have been doing things way differently. Yet I kept repeating the same things because I was stuck in patterns. How can we find peace now that our eyes are wide open about the mistakes we made and actually start building a bridge back to our kids again?" I think this is a question for the both of you.
--:-- Kendall: Wait, no, I actually have an answer.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Tell them.
--:-- Kendall: Tell your kids how you're feeling. It's never too late to build a beautiful relationship with them. I know that I'm very lucky to be a part of the Robbins family, but everybody that's been requesting and sending in questions for my mom—tell your kids you're feeling this way. That is the most important thing you can do. It makes them feel so much more seen when you just tell them. Imagine how it would feel if you just told your kid, "I want to connect with you, and I feel like I fucked up a little bit in the past." It's incredible.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I often think that the most profound advice is right in front of our face. And it's true. Instead of talking to your girlfriends or your spouse, go straight to your adult kids and say, "I really regret that I didn't do more with your friends. I regret that I was not around as much as I would have liked to have been. I regret that we were struggling so badly financially that I couldn't afford to do those things." It makes me sad, but it's one of the reasons why I'm like, note to self: instead of trying to drag your kids closer to you, if you want to be close to your kids, go to them. Go to them where they are. You said hobbies, Sawyer. Don't make them do the shit that you like to do. Go do with your kids what they like to do. Even if you don't like their friends, invite their friends to be with you, because then your child is going to want to hang with you.
--:-- Sawyer: I think going off that, the perfect example that I can think of is Oakley is really into video games and used to be a gamer. Well, he is a gamer, but he used to be a big gamer. My dad is not. He doesn't play video games. But he brought him to a video game conference and they had an amazing time and bonded. I think that was so special because my dad is not sitting with Oakley playing video games for eight hours every day, but the fact that he can take you to a conference and bond with you that way, even though video games is not his top-of-mind interest, is the perfect example of diving into your kids' lives, even into something that makes you feel uncomfortable or that you know nothing about.
--:-- Oakley: That was honestly a really cool experience. I don't even remember asking dad to do that with me. My dad was like, "There's this thing involving video games. You want to go?" And I was like, "Yeah, I want to go with you. That would be so much fun." I remember we just went, we walked around, we looked at all these booths, we played games together. It was a really cool and fun experience. I definitely will always remember that. It was really cool seeing him take interest in my life like that. It felt nice because it also made me feel like what I was doing was okay, like there wasn't something wrong with what I enjoyed because he was willing to go do something about that. It felt really nice at the time.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Do you think a lot of parents make the mistake of forcing their kids to do things that they like instead of letting their kids be themselves?
--:-- Kendall: Yes. There are a lot of life lessons and values in making your kids play sports, but our parents made Oakley play literally every single sport. From gymnastics to diving to soccer to lacrosse. He would play every single sport for half a season. He hated every single one of them. And my parents would pull him out and be like, "What do you want to try next?" And he would tell them. You can speak on this more because this was your experience. But I think what you guys have mastered is you brought us into the world not so you could live through us, but so we could be our own people. You have mastered the art of teetering between letting us be our own person and not being a fuck up. I think a lot of parents bring their kids into the world so they can live through them. In doing that, they make them play soccer until their bones are aching. Make them get straight A's because that's what they wish they would do. Make them do this, make them do that until they don't even know who the fuck they are by the time they're 22. Obviously they're not connected to their parents then. They don't know who they are. What I would advise you to do is figure out how it feels for you and what it looks like for you to bring somebody into the world so they can be their own person, not so you can make them be somebody that you wish you might have been.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Mic drop. That was phenomenal.
--:-- Chris: Yeah, that basically was it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay. 18-year-old college freshman hates where she is. She has a long-term boyfriend who went to another college two hours away. A month before she left for college, she wanted to switch to the college her boyfriend was attending without even touring it. What do we do? Because she loved college before she went. And then, as mom says, shit got real at orientation. Now she wants to leave because she doesn't like college and hasn't met friends. What do you say to your kid who does not like freshman fall of college? Sawyer, I feel like you should handle this one.
--:-- Sawyer: All right. Let me just tell you something. This is the story of my life. This is exactly what happened to me. Word for word. I had a boyfriend at the time who went to University of Michigan. I went to Boston College. I was obsessed with it. I was so excited to go. I was proud to be an Eagle. I showed up and immediately didn't see the rah-rah fraternities, sororities. I didn't have a massive friend group. I had one friend who I met at orientation. Literally for the entire year, she was my only friend. I was miserable. I sat in my room every single day, bawling my eyes out, begging my parents to come pick me up because I didn't want to be there. I tried to take all the steps I thought would be the best way to meet people and make friends. I didn't connect with literally anyone. Another part of that is I can completely relate to the high school boyfriend who is at another college. All you want to do is be with them. You just came off an amazing senior summer. But my advice to you is she has to stay for a year. I really believe this because my entire freshman year was horrible. I do have to put that out there. But I went back because I didn't know where I wanted to transfer, although I wanted to transfer. And I had the best year of my entire life my sophomore year. That was solely because my parents forced me to stay. They said, "You need to stick it through." I honestly grew as a person so much that entire year because I was in pain, uncomfortable, trying to meet new people. All of which brought me to the best people in the world at Boston College.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, it also brought you to the best version of yourself. See, this is an example of guardrails. If you always allow your kid to bounce from one situation that makes them uncomfortable, what's going to happen is their anxiety increases. Here's what you do in that situation. You can say, "I hear you. That is hard. And if you're that miserable, here's what you can do about it. You can transfer. Put all that negative energy into applications and figuring out what you're going to do next." Acknowledge what your child is feeling. Validate their experience. That is so important so that they feel seen and heard. And then make them focus on coming up with a solution. You know I did the same thing with your brother in sports. You hated Pop Warner football, Oakley. I didn't even know how to play football.
--:-- Oakley: I know. I know.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I forced you to do it. When you kept saying "I don't want to do this," I said, "I get it. And you don't have to play all year."
--:-- Oakley: I didn't play all year. I was a bench warmer.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, that's true. You didn't play when you were playing. But at the end of the season, we allowed you to quit, but we made you stick it out. Do you remember what the deal was if you quit a sport?
--:-- Oakley: I picked a new one.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Do you remember what you picked next?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Correct. I was a champ at that.
--:-- Oakley: Yes, you were. Then I quit.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It's true. And then you picked another one. You know, one of the things that I always say to you guys, even though I know you make fun of me all the time, you know my favorite saying?
--:-- Mel Robbins: "Try, try, try again"?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Do you want me to listen?
--:-- Mel Robbins: What is it? "Do you want me to listen or give you advice?" Correct. And nine times out of ten, you pick listen. Because you guys don't want advice. You just want me to listen.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I think the bottom line is don't rescue your kids as much as you may want to. Do not let them just bounce from college or bounce from a sport or bounce from a situation because they're nervous. When you make them face it, you know what you're telling your kid? You're saying, "I believe you have the strength to face things that are really hard." You're saying, "You have within you, even though the situation blows and it makes you feel uncomfortable, you're stronger than this situation." You also are saying to somebody, "I'm not going to make you torture yourself, but I believe that you're able to figure out an alternative. If you really hate it that much, face it. Stay with it and spend your free time either transferring to a new school and filling out the applications and figuring that out. I will support you through that. Or figure out what other sport you want to play. What are you going to replace this with?" You can grow through these situations. How you show up as a parent will either teach your kid that they can't face uncertainty or they should just quit when things get hard, or you're teaching them how to become a problem solver. In fact, your cousin is going through this right now.
--:-- Sawyer: She is. Also, you always said when I was complaining that I had no friends freshman year, in terms of the solutions, my mom always used to say, "Why don't you just go knock on someone's door? Or why don't you Instagram DM someone to get lunch?" At first I always said, "No, that's so weird. I'm not going to do that. I have no friends." But then I started to get desperate and I started taking her advice, and it actually worked.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Final question. "We do not like the person that our 18-year-old is dating. On a couple of occasions, they have been rude to my husband. Ever since seeing them, she doesn't talk to us like she used to. I don't trust this person. I don't think they're a good fit for my child. What do I do?" Sawyer, I'm going to let you meditate on this one while I take the wheel right now.
--:-- Kendall: What do you not do? What you should not do is make your daughter or your son or your child feel as though they cannot bring the significant other over. As somebody that was in a relationship that was very healthy and loving in high school, I watched my sister in a relationship that I know she was happy in for a while. But towards the end, whatever, it ended for a reason. I watched her shut down whenever we would talk about how we felt like they weren't a good fit or we felt like maybe she wasn't herself around him. The more you talk about how you don't like the significant other, the more your daughter is going to pull away. She's at a phase in her life. She's with this person for a reason. If it's not love, it's a lesson. She's going to learn something from it. As long as she is safe and there's no abuse going on, telling her that she can't be with him, telling her all this stuff, it's only going to push her further away from you. Again, honest and open communication. Talk to her. Tell her, "We love you, but we feel like you're not yourself around this person. Is there a reason why? Is there anything we can do?" Did you hear that from us, Sawyer?
--:-- Sawyer: I heard it. I think the question is whether you heard us say that. When I was in this position, you were very open and honest. You made it very clear that you guys really enjoyed him, all this stuff. When you would say things along the lines of, "I don't think this relationship is necessarily great for you anymore. You are not yourself around him," which I think is our biggest takeaway, they always phrased the conversation less about him and more about how I was and who I want to be and who I'm meant to be. He was not making that possible for whatever reason. By my parents always framing the conversation and putting it back on me rather than blaming it all on my boyfriend at the time, it did obviously make me pull away a bit in the moment. But those conversations always stayed in my mind. I wasn't actively listening, but in the back of my mind, whenever I was with him after those conversations, I would be questioning, "Is this right? Is this not right? I really love him. He makes me feel comfortable." But then in the back of my mind, I would consider, "Yes, but who am I?" By framing the conversation towards your daughter rather than putting all the blame on the boyfriend, it might not make her immediately end things. But it will stick with her forever. I can assure you of that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So I got two things from that. Number one, let's go back to one of the huge takeaways: do not drag your kids to you, go to them. Be super welcoming, even if you don't like the person. I realize the rudeness is a hard thing to deal with. If they're not in a dangerous situation, the more you can make them feel welcome at your place, do things with them, take them out to dinner, the more you've got eyes on them, the more you have a better handle on the situation. They're never going to want to hang out with you if you're super judgy. I thought that dad and I—because I actually really liked who you're talking about—I just didn't like who you were in it because you changed.
--:-- Oakley: I was in a relationship for about a year and a half. It was a great relationship. It was very healthy, but I would say that I was not myself around my family. There was a lot of—I don't know if sneakiness is the right word—but my biggest goal in that relationship was to make sure that she was comfortable and she was happy. She would tend to become uncomfortable in certain situations. Most of those situations involved being around my family. So whenever she'd come over, I would basically hide her away in my room because I didn't want her to feel uncomfortable. I was going out of my way to make sure she was comfortable. I remember I had so many conversations with you guys about how I was different. There was nothing wrong, but you just wanted to hang out with us more. You felt like you still didn't really know her. Throughout the whole entire relationship, those thoughts never left my mind.
--:-- Kendall: Thank you for sharing that, Oakley.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Thank you.
--:-- Kendall: What I was going to say is, as somebody that was in the opposite of that kind of relationship, me and my high school boyfriend didn't leave my parents alone. But I would witness you guys always having conversations with Sawyer. I witnessed some of the conversations you had with Oakley about the significant other and about how they were being in that relationship. Back to the whole honest communication thing, you would always have these nonjudgmental conversations with both of my siblings. You were open and honest about how you felt and how you were noticing their behavior change. But it was never judgmental. It was never, "You need to break up with him. You need to do this." To the point where I think it almost made them feel more comfortable talking to you about it. When Sawyer would have issues with this guy or Oakley would have issues with his girlfriend, they would still come and talk to you because they know that you wouldn't be like, "Well, now's your time to break up with them. You have to break up with them." You would just be like, "Okay, how are you feeling?"
--:-- Mel Robbins: I don't get the sense we were like that with Sawyer.
--:-- Kendall: You were like that with me. I feel like you were. Whenever she had issues...
--:-- Sawyer: I don't know. It's Sawyer's experience.
--:-- Sawyer: No, I agree. I'm the oldest child, so I was the first rodeo. What happened was at first it was very, "Oh, well, I don't think you should be together. I think you should break up." Overpowering. Then I think they sensed that I was pulling away. All of a sudden they made a flip. It was constantly, "Oh, well, what are you and so-and-so up to tonight? You guys are more than welcome to come back over and hang out here. We'd love to see him. We'd love to see you. We can cook you dinner." Unfortunately, I had already seen the first side of things, so I was already self-conscious about how they felt. And like Oakley, I hid him away in my room every time we hung out. But I did really appreciate the shift in communication and understanding of where I was coming from.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You did that. You created a little hideout for her boyfriend.
--:-- Oakley: No, no, no. In relation to mine.
--:-- Mel Robbins: While they were together. All right, one final one. I think this is important given the rise of mental health issues right now in middle schoolers. "We're not sure why, but our 12-year-old daughter is being excluded from her friend group. I often hear her crying in her room, but when I talk to her about it, she won't tell me anything. What do I do?" That's a hard one.
--:-- Kendall: You could try relating to her. Open up to her first and then see if she'll respond. Everybody has a situation in their middle school or high school days where something shitty happens in a friend group. If you go to her and say, "Look, I noticed that something's going on in your friend group. When I was your age, this happened to me," it may make her feel more inclined to say something.
--:-- Sawyer: I think another thing too is when you do broach the conversation, even if she's very quick to not say anything back to you, make it very clear that you're just there to listen and you just want to be there for her. That you're not going to do anything. I think a lot of middle schoolers are petrified that if I tell my mom that I'm getting bullied, she's going to go yell at all the bullies and then I'm going to get bullied triple the amount. Make it clear to her, "I will not be telling your teachers. I will not be scolding anybody. I am your teammate. Whatever you need me to be, I will be for you. But please just let me be there for you."
--:-- Mel Robbins: I think that last part's genius. Promise you're not going to do anything about it. Just promise you're going to listen. If you could tell parents listening, any specific behavior change they could adopt today that would help them create a better relationship with their kids. What is something that you could do specifically that would really help?
--:-- Kendall: One thing: stop grounding your kids. I can assure you it does nothing but make them want to retreat and do the complete opposite of what you're telling them not to do.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What should they do instead?
--:-- Kendall: Honestly, honestly, have the conversation and explain why it upset you and why it made you frustrated with why they did it. If it happens again, then let's discuss it then, and then we can talk about a punishment. But all my friends used to get grounded, and as soon as their punishment or grounding ended, they would go the second they were ungrounded. They would go straight to the party, and they would go straight to doing double the amount that they were doing before. So I can assure you, grounding—please just stop. It really, really—I've never seen it work on anyone.
--:-- Oakley: I would say be vulnerable with your children. Cry in front of them. Be sad in front of them. Be happy in front of them. Emote in front of them in a real, authentic way, like how you would with your own friends and people your age. I think that's like—you're just showing them that you're human. That's what they're trying to be too.
--:-- Sawyer: I would definitely say just be there for your kid. Be their backup. Always let them know that you have their back and you're going to be there to help them whenever they need it, no matter what.
--:-- Kendall: I think another thing that we talked about earlier is make sure that when you are with your kid and you're listening to your kid, you make it very, very clear that what they say to you will go nowhere. And that means not to your spouse, not to your friend, not to your dog—literally anyone. It is just between you two. Because I can assure you, it feels so invalidating to tell a parent something. Even say I tell my mom something, and then the next day my dad comes to me and asks if I'm okay about that. That doesn't feel good because I felt like I was in a trust circle with her, and I just wanted her to know that. So I really think making sure your kid knows that it's just going to stay between you two—and then it actually does. And then you don't go on your walk with all your girlfriends the next day and explain your kid's biggest issue. That is seriously crucial.
--:-- Oakley: All we're saying is just be a human being to them. You're no different now that you're a parent. I mean, obviously, yes, you are different—you have a lot more responsibilities—but you still are made of the same chemicals and feel the same emotions. Why would you turn that off? They want to see that too. That's the most important thing you can do is just be a human. Be you.
--:-- Sawyer: If I had to bottom-line the most important thing, it's seeking connection over correction. Because that's what we all want. We want to feel connected. We want to feel understood. We want to feel like we matter.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I want to thank you guys. I know you want to get out of here. I appreciate you sticking around this long and thoughtfully answering everybody's questions. And for you listening, I really hope that this is one of those episodes that you can share with your family, or your parents, or your kids, or your brothers and sisters. And it will help you create a deeper connection. And it will inspire you to talk through some of these topics too. I can't wait to hear your reaction to this episode. Thank you so much for being here with us.
--:-- [Mel pauses, speaking directly to the audience]
--:-- Mel Robbins: In case nobody else tells you today, let me tell you: I love you. I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life and to deepen the connections with the people that matter to you most. Thanks for being here. I'll see you in a few days.
