--:-- Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so glad that you pressed play and that you're listening to this conversation right now, because you and I are going to talk about something incredibly important. There is a relationship in your life right now where there's just this unspoken tension with another person. You want to be closer. You want to have more fun, but you're just not sure what to do.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, that was me and my oldest daughter, Sawyer, for a long time. Today, Sawyer and I are going to sit down with you and unpack the issues that we had in our relationship. We'll talk about this invisible distance that both of us felt. Even when we were having fun and we really love each other, there was just something in the way. We both wanted to be closer and not offend each other or upset each other or say things that we didn't mean to say. Neither one of us knew how to bridge the gap or create a closer connection. We didn't even quite understand what was off.
--:-- Mel Robbins: As you listen to my daughter and I unpack the things we realized about our relationship, and more importantly, share two things that happened this year that brought us closer than ever, I want you to be thinking about the relationships in your life. There is somebody in your life right now that you wish you were closer to, but there's just this unspoken tension. You show up with the best of expectations and you really want to have fun, and things are okay for a day, but then it's the same old argument and baggage. You just wish it could go away.
--:-- Mel Robbins: The truth is, I've got some really good news, because that's exactly how my daughter and I felt for years. We've now figured it out. We've made our relationship better. The good news is, in any relationship, all it takes is you. If you change how you show up, everything changes in the relationship. Whether you're now thinking about your mom, or how you've been fighting with your spouse and you wish you wouldn't, or you've got tension with one of your adult kids, or maybe the tension and this invisible distance is with a sibling—you were once close, but now you're not—this conversation is one of the biggest gifts I could give you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I'm going to explain that this invisible distance is something you can close. You can improve your relationships. You can create a closer connection. Following the two things that my daughter and I are going to teach you today that work for us is one of the biggest gifts you could give to yourself and every relationship in your life.
--:-- [Intro music fades]
--:-- Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. It is always such an honor to spend time and be together with you. I am so excited that you hit play today, that you're here for this conversation. This one is going to be amazing. The reason why is I'm sitting down with my oldest daughter. Her name is Sawyer. She's 25 years old. We have just spent the last year writing the *Let Them Theory* book together. The process of not only learning about the Let Them Theory and writing this book together has healed our relationship.
--:-- Mel Robbins: This is going to be one of those conversations that is deeply personal. You're going to see yourself in everything that we're talking about. You're going to leave not only with a deeper understanding of the Let Them Theory—this mindset tool that I discovered about two years ago that really helps you understand what's in your control and what's not in your control. It helps you to focus on what you are in control of—what you think, say, or do—and to just let other people be. Let them live their lives, let them have their opinions, and really focus on your response.
--:-- Mel Robbins: A funny thing happens when you start to implement the Let Them Theory in your life. When you start to say "let them" and you let people be themselves, you create space for change and transformation. The more you stop trying to control everybody else, the more control you gain. The more you let other people be themselves, the better your relationships become.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What I'm going to do today with you is invite you to sit down with me and my daughter. We're going to unpack our mother-daughter relationship. I promise you, you're going to see yourself. You're going to see yourself with your siblings. You may see yourself with your parents. You may see yourself with your adult kids. You will definitely see yourself with your significant other, whether you're married or dating. The ultimate topic we're talking about is that in most relationships, there's this invisible distance between you and another person. It's this space that gets created over time with the people that you've known the longest, or the people that you love the most, or the people that you're related to.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It's like death by a thousand cuts. The small things that you try to let go, the passive aggressive comments, the things that you feel resentful or upset about that maybe happened in the past that you never quite got over. It's not even that the relationship is horrible. Maybe it's that you really wish you were closer to your siblings, but there's just something there that you can't explain that makes it feel impossible to just feel closer. Or maybe you wish there was just less drama and friction with your adult kids or with your parents or with their significant other. There are times where it's fun. You really think things are okay, but you just can't quite get closer and have it be better all the time.
--:-- Mel Robbins: In the process of working on the *Let Them Theory* book over the last year and using the Let Them Theory, my daughter and I truly, deeply, authentically, for real, erased the distance and really became close in a way that we both really wanted to but never knew how. I invite you to pull up a seat and join me and my daughter Sawyer.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Before we jump in, I want to take a moment to welcome you if you're brand new. If you're listening to this episode as the first episode of the Mel Robbins podcast, it tells me something about you. First of all, either somebody that really loves you and wants to either be closer to you or wants you to be closer to people in your life sent this to you. That means you have people around you that deeply care about you. They wanted you to listen to this because they know this conversation is going to help you improve your life and your relationships. And it will.
--:-- Mel Robbins: The second thing it tells me is that you actually care about your relationships because you saw this episode and you hit play. My daughter and I are sitting down and we are going to unpack the lessons that we've learned the hard way. Hopefully we can save you the headache, heartache, upset, and distance that we created in our relationship as mom and daughter. You can learn from our mistakes and from the things that we learned this year as we used the Let Them Theory and wrote about it and researched it. There's one thing I know for sure: you will never look at relationships the same again after joining me and my daughter Sawyer.
--:-- Mel Robbins: With that, I just said your name very weird, Sawyer. I don't know why I said it weird like that. Sawyer, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Thanks for sitting down with me.
--:-- Sawyer: Thanks, Mom.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I guess where we should start is we're going to tell you a little bit about our relationship prior to the past year, where we've had this experience of working together on this project of writing and then releasing the *Let Them Theory* book. It all happened by accident. None of this happened on purpose. That's another really important thing: at any moment you can change the way your relationship feels.
--:-- Mel Robbins: As Sawyer and I share our experiences and what our relationship used to feel like, I'm just going to ask you to be thinking about the people in your life. Whether it's a sister or a brother, an in-law, a colleague at work, or a friend. The way that I would describe our relationship—and then I'm going to throw it over to you almost like a professional roasting, Sawyer—is that I desperately wanted to be closer to you, but I didn't know how to be. Your turn. That's it.
--:-- Sawyer: Okay. Good setup. I think I always wanted to be closer with you. If I think back to before working together, our relationship... it wasn't horrible. I do have to preface: it was not horrible. But I don't think it was great.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I want to dig in here. I'm 56, you're 25, the oldest of three. Compared to a lot of people's relationships, our relationship is great. We talk a lot. We respond to each other's texts. We love seeing each other. But there was something underneath the surface that made it not so great. What was that for you? Please, just let me have it. Don't worry about my feelings. The more you can explain your experience as the daughter, the more powerful this conversation is going to be for the person that is here with us right now.
--:-- Sawyer: Everything that I'm about to say was very unintentional on your part. After a lot of therapy and reflecting on myself, and especially working with you, I've recognized this since. But before growing up, I always thought it was intentional. A huge thing is the fact that you were never home and you were always on the road. When you came home, all you did was talk about work. From my perspective as your kid, all I wanted you to do when you came home was come to my games, prioritize me, and give me attention. It just felt like it wasn't there unless we were asking you about your work.
--:-- Sawyer: On a separate note, my sister Kendall is younger than me by 18 months. She is a phenomenal singer pursuing a career out in LA. She grew up as a performer and grew up in the spotlight. I think she is on the same track as you in being in the spotlight and having people recognize you, which is unbelievable. But I think I saw the both of you always relating on that and felt very jealous that I didn't have a natural talent that I could deliver that would connect me to the two of you. I always saw you guys as on the other side of the room, with her getting all the praise for the singing, which she deserves and is amazing. At the same time, I was just like, "Oh, I can't relate to my mom or my sister. I'm different. I don't have a natural ability."
--:-- Sawyer: Every time I'm addressed, it's "Oh, you're Kendall's sister? Oh, are you the singer?" or "Are you Mel Robbins' daughter? That's awesome." It's never like, "Oh, you're Sawyer. It's so nice to meet you." I was always a product of you or Kendall. I think that really made me resent you, honestly. Instead of being really celebratory of your work and how much you worked and you as a person, I saw it as all these fans, all these people out there who love my mom, are taking my mom away from me. So I'm not annoyed at them, I'm annoyed at her.
--:-- Mel Robbins: If you go back in time, could you explain how this dynamic was in place before the level of recognition that this podcast has brought? In my experience, it's a whole different ballgame in the past two years than it was when we lived in Sherbourne. Could you share a little bit about your experience in middle school and high school?
--:-- Sawyer: In high school and middle school, you were on the road upwards of 200 days in the year. As you were gone, I felt myself growing closer to dad and closer to Kendall and Oakley because we were always together. When you would come home, it felt like—it was a story I was telling myself, but in my eyes—you either were talking about work or you were talking about Kendall. "How are we going to grow Kendall's singing career? How are we going to do this and all of the plays and all this stuff?" Which is unbelievable. But that was really my impression: she's a workaholic. I have more of an appreciation for it now. I just had this story in my head that all I wanted was your attention and I felt like it was going everywhere but me.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I think it was. It definitely was. And I'm sorry.
--:-- Sawyer: That's okay.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It's not okay.
--:-- Sawyer: I forgive you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I think every working parent, especially those of us that have a job that requires travel, has that "ooh" in your heart. There are times in your life where just out of necessity, you have to be on the road because that's what your job demands. I was lucky enough that dad was home full time. But I do agree with you that I was consumed with work because I was so scared about the amount of debt we were in and the relentless pressure I felt for almost a decade to replace all the money we had lost in the business, get out of credit card debt, and be able to pay for college. Too many people, I spent too many years working and chasing the next thing because of the debt we were in. I missed out on a lot.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I can see why your experience was that I was always gone. When I was home, I was talking about work or getting ready to leave on the next trip. Kendall, who is definitely way more emotional than you are, at least outwardly, was getting a lot of the attention. This happens a lot with the oldest kid. You assumed the role of responsibility and became very stoic. As much as I was trying to reach you, I didn't worry about you as much because you didn't emote as much. That's not your problem as the parent. It's my responsibility to know who you are and to find ways to really reach you, but I didn't know how.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It almost felt like, especially in high school, that you were pissed off at me. You had crossed your arms and you were standing off on the side like, "You're not going to get to me. You don't get access to me." Is that true?
--:-- Sawyer: I think looking back, I pouted a little bit for sure. It was definitely a little emotionally immature, acting like an eight-year-old. But you'll learn in the *Let Them Theory* book... I think another thing with families that happens a lot is I naturally am a lot more similar to dad, and Kendall is a lot more similar to you. Oakley is like a beautiful combination of you both. It's not like something horrible happened.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Not at all. I think most relationships have this invisible distance. You can feel it, and you can't quite understand why it's there. If it's with somebody that you deeply love and have cared about for a long time, that distance and resentment that starts to build up is death by a thousand cuts. Over and over and over again, somebody feeling like they don't matter to you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Honestly, when you're the parent, Sawyer, it's your responsibility to make sure that your children know that they matter to you. It's not your responsibility as the child to make me know that I matter to you. It's my responsibility as the parent to provide that to you, just like it's my responsibility to provide you with food, water, and shelter. Me showing up in a way that makes you feel seen, makes you feel like you're a priority, where I'm actually emotionally calm and not tantruming or taking my stress out on all of you—that was something I didn't do. I did not provide you with what you needed. I fully own that.
--:-- Sawyer: I appreciate you saying that. Love you. I also want to say that I think there were a lot of times in our relationship where you really did try. You were actively constantly trying to break the barrier between our relationship.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What were some of the things that I tried to do? I know what I tried to do.
--:-- Sawyer: Well, first of all, you tried to—let's go to the mall, let's buy you a few things so you don't dislike me.
--:-- Sawyer: Which I think for those of you whose love language is gifting, I think it worked in the moment. Then the next day, something would happen that would reconfirm this story I was telling myself that she doesn't care about me. Then it was back to this force field between us.
--:-- Mel Robbins: That's what I was going to say. There were things that happened over time that raised the force field. Everything after that just reconfirmed it and made me feel like I was always listening for that message. I completely shut out the "you matter, here's your gifts, here's me showing up to your game." I already had decided in my mind that this is the story I'm going to tell myself: my mom doesn't care about me, and I am going to go pout in the corner so she comes closer to me, versus trying to approach you in another way.
--:-- Sawyer: What didn't help that is outside of the house and outside of our family, every single second, it was getting reconfirmed by strangers and by my friends. "Oh, you're Kendall's sister. Oh my God, Kendall's blah blah blah." "Oh my gosh, you're Mel Robbins' daughter. I love her so much. Can you give me your number so I can get to her? Give me your email so I can get to her?" It was always, "How can I use Sawyer to get to Kendall or Mom?" Inside the house, I was telling myself this, but outside, other people were reconfirming it for me. It made the force field indestructible.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I think that's a very common experience, even when someone in your family doesn't have a public facing career. If you're the middle child in a big family, or the youngest in a big family, you feel invisible. You show up at school and you're Joey's little brother, or "here comes another Jones through the school." You start to feel invisible in the reputation of the family or what your siblings did ahead of you. That's a very common thing.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Would you say that once you decided "my mom doesn't care about me," it was going to be very difficult for me to somehow shatter that force field that you put up?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Why do you say that?
--:-- Sawyer: I think it wouldn't be until I showed up differently that our relationship would get better.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Really? I'd like to know I had more power here.
--:-- Sawyer: Well, I appreciate you saying that. It takes time to shift the dynamic. If somebody is committed to making you the villain in their story, or if they're committed to being the victim every time they tell the narrative of their family, it's pretty hard for people to let go of victimhood. It's pretty hard for people to change the identity that they got screwed over, or that their family is crazy, or nobody cares about them, or "I make the effort but nobody else does." When you get on that storyline, it's a very powerful thing to tell yourself because you feel right.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Totally.
--:-- Sawyer: Anger and resentment can become the substitute for the love that you actually crave. The second that you say, "Well, I was wrong about them," or you attempt to step out of the story where you're the victim and step into someone else's shoes to try to understand what it might have been like for them, just to see a different perspective, nothing's going to change.
--:-- Mel Robbins: In the conversation today, I actually do think people can change. If you're willing to examine your own storyline and ask yourself, "I realize that this has been the story. I realize that it's been for a long time that my sister doesn't care about me, or that my in-laws are selfish, or that I'm invisible in my family and nobody cares." If that's the story and it's been this way for a very long time, nothing is going to change unless you ask yourself the question, "What do I actually want? Is this how I want it to be?" If you don't want it to continue to be this way, the one person that can change it is you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I want to be very clear. Your experience as a child is exactly aligned with the mother that you had. I was not available. I was desperately trying to save our family from financial ruin. I was in panic mode all the time. I didn't know how to build a business. I didn't know how to do what I was doing. I was constantly feeling behind. I could not do what I was doing and also be an awesome mom at the same time. I own that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I also thank you and appreciate that you can, from where you are now and looking back at the dynamic, see what was on my side in terms of the responsibility. And also be mature enough to say, "I can see that I crossed my arms back in elementary school and was like, 'Well, she likes Kendall more and I'm more like dad, so I'm just going to go over here in the corner and be silent and hold it all in and see if she notices me.'"
--:-- Sawyer: I think you were trying to reach out your hand towards the end. I think I still was in that "cross my arms, I'm mad at you, and I like to be mad at you because then you give me more attention" phase.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Ooh, can we just stop right there? I think that's something people can really relate to. If I'm mad at you, I'm naturally going to want to make it up to you. I have this dynamic with people in my life where I feel I'm constantly in trouble and they're keeping score. When they're annoyed with me and I can hear it in their tone of voice, I now have to somehow smooth this over. I definitely felt that dynamic with you. I love that you can admit that you liked being mad at me.
--:-- Sawyer: Yeah, it was great.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What was great about it? No, seriously, what was great about it?
--:-- Sawyer: I felt like when I was mad at you, then you actually gave me the time of day. It wasn't until I was in tears or I needed help or I needed some advice—aka your career—that you actually genuinely were paying attention to me without your phone in your hand, without thinking about other things. It was almost like if I was in trouble, or I was mad at you, or I was in an emergency situation, that is when I would get your full attention. That is the only time I would get your full attention.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So I felt like I was training you unconsciously. I had no idea that I was doing this, but I was training you to come closer to me whenever I was mad at you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You did. Because my experience of being your mother is that especially once you got to high school, you were done with me. "I don't need you. I don't want you. I want your credit card, I want the keys to your car, and I want you to shut up and just not bother me." I started to comply. I wanted something different, but I just didn't know how to do anything different or reach you without you being so annoyed or angry with me all the time.
--:-- Sawyer: It's true. It was all because I looked up to you and wanted to be you. I think that was the same thing with Kendall too. I just wanted to be her. I didn't know how to communicate that. Instead of being like, "I'm so proud of you, I want to learn from you, I want to go in the same direction, or I don't know what I want to do but I think what you're doing is so cool," I was just like, "I can never do that, and therefore I'm going to punish them."
--:-- Mel Robbins: I think it's such a relatable experience. I am so grateful that we're having this conversation, and I'm grateful that you're together with us. I know that this conversation is going to improve your relationships. You're going to feel so much better if you truly take to heart everything that we're sharing. I cannot wait to see who you share this conversation with.
--:-- Mel Robbins: We're discussing the process of using the Let Them Theory with one another over the course of the last year and how it has truly healed and improved our relationship. Let's fast forward to the part of the story where you go through college, you're out working for this massive cybersecurity firm, you're in your early 20s, you're getting promoted, you have all this stuff, you're saving money, and you decide that you're going to take this trip and backpack solo around Asia—something you've wanted to do since you were a little girl. You go realize this dream. Then what happens?
--:-- Sawyer: I quit my job and I go to Asia for four months and backpack solo to seven different countries. It was so amazing. I was on such a high. I came back from my trip. I immediately wanted to go back, but I had no money. It was the middle of winter up in Vermont. I moved back home, living with my parents at 25. This was a year ago, almost to the day.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What were you thinking about the fact that you're moving in with me and dad?
--:-- Sawyer: I thought it was temporary.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I hope it is. I love you, but I hope it is.
--:-- Sawyer: Well, I'm still living here for everyone. But I thought it was temporary. I thought this is going to be a great refresh. I'm going to move to New York. I'm going to get a job within like three weeks of getting back. This will be totally fine. Then I get back and I just crumble with everything. I am crying every day. I have no idea how to process my emotions after I just completed the biggest goal I've ever had in my life. It's over. What am I going to do now? I can't go back in the corporate world, but I will never work for my mother.
--:-- Sawyer: Mom approaches me, ever so slyly. She says, "Hey, Soy, you need money, clearly. And I need a little bit of help. How about you work for the entire next week on a little research project that I call the Let Them Theory? I will pay you however much..." I think it was like 50 bucks.
--:-- Mel Robbins: No, it was a good amount. I was going to pay a professional researcher, like 40 an hour. The Let Them Theory—I had stumbled upon it many months ago. I had shared it online. It had gone crazy viral. We had done one podcast episode about it. That podcast episode became the sixth most shared episode on all of Apple Podcasts of the year. When something goes that crazy, I'm like, "I need to dig in deeper. I need to understand why is this resonating?"
--:-- Mel Robbins: Why are people getting tattoos that say "let them" before I commit to writing a book about this thing? Let's dig into the research and see what all of you are telling us the power of the Let Them Theory is. So I was going to hire somebody to do it. And I thought, because I was very clear—you don't want to work for me. You've always said, "I don't want to work for you." Which I respect. You want to have your own path in life. Absolutely agree with that. Absolutely follow your own path. But I was like, okay, we both have a problem. Let's see if we can solve it together.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So you took on this project—40 bucks an hour, I think it was—to do a quick research project for two weeks. I gave you the thing that had gone viral initially, like a 60-second thing, and I gave her the podcast episode and said, "I want you to dig into the comments." And I expected you to come back within two weeks and give me a couple pages of analysis. But that's not what happened.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Within 27 hours, Sawyer produced a—I don't know—36-page document that was an active Excel table with color-coded drop-down menus and source links. Including not only the 36 pages of citation and analysis and color coding and drop-down menus, but a two-page synopsis. Which also included the fact that she said, "Mom, you can't write this book. Because what I'm seeing in the comments is 90% of it's amazing, but 10% of people are saying, 'I'm saying "let them" and I'm really lonely. I'm saying "let them" and I see that my friends don't call me back. I'm saying "let them" and I see I'm the one in my family that makes all the effort.' We cannot do a book about something that makes people lonely. There has to be a second part."
--:-- Mel Robbins: Now, meanwhile, as she's saying this to me, I'm holding this very thick packet of information that looks like some sort of marketing engineer has used AI to create. And I'm looking at you and I'm thinking, "Oh my God, I think for the first time in your life, I actually understand the way your brain works." That you basically have a supercomputer between those bright blue eyes and those beautiful ears and smile that is crunching data all the time. And if you don't have a monster of a project to aim it at, you aim it at yourself. And it made me want to cry because I understood immediately why you're so hard on yourself and why you're always in your head.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And then the second reaction that I had was, "Holy shit, I got to figure out how she can work for me because this kid is a genius." I've never seen anybody do research like this before. I've never seen something organized like this before. The analysis was spot on. And I will tell you point blank that the reason why the Let Them Theory has two steps—Step One being say "Let Them," where you detach from controlling another person and you let them be who they are—is 1000% because of Sawyer. And Step Two is "Let Me." That's where you say "Let Me" and you direct yourself to the truth, which is the only thing that you can control in any relationship or your life or your career: you. Your response, what you think, what you say, what you do, how you process your emotions. That's where you get to take responsibility for your life. That's where all the control and power comes.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Because when you say "Let Me," you're reminding yourself that it's both your responsibility to figure out what you want to do. And let's talk about the word "responsibility." Responsibility just means the ability to respond. And in our case, one of the things that has been absolutely unbelievable around the Let Them Theory is that it's not only stopped you and me from trying to control the other person, but in saying "Let Them" to each other—I say "Let Them" when Sawyer seems intense. I say "Let Them" when Sawyer seems pissed off at me. I say "Let Them" when Sawyer kind of has that crossed-arm vibe. And then I say "Let Me." Let me decide how I'm going to show up right now.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And there are moments where I choose to step toward you and to try to make sure you know that I'm here. And then there are moments where I say, "Let me just give her space." Instead of micromanaging her and thinking something's wrong, let me just respect her as a 25-year-old human being who is allowed to have experiences in life that may be challenging. And I don't need to step in and mother her. I don't need to step in and smother her. I can just let her be intense about work right now because there's a lot going on.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So long and the short of it is, you agreed to step on and help me write the Let Them Theory book. I still can't believe it.
--:-- Sawyer: Why can't you believe it?
--:-- Mel Robbins: I am not a writer.
--:-- Sawyer: I beg to differ, but go ahead.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I just remember you saying, "Sawyer, I think we need to write this book together." And after loving the research project, I signed up and said, "Okay, but not full time. I will be on the side and I will be a contractor." And then I was still resistant.
--:-- Sawyer: That's actually really important because I got to give you massive props for boundaries. So notice what she's doing. Because here's the thing, in any relationship when things start to shift, it doesn't shift like that. These dynamics between you and the people in your life—whether it's your mother or your father or your sister or your brother, or maybe it's your adult kids—these dynamics have been in place for a very long time. You both have stories about each other. And you got to be willing to first of all go, "Well, what do I actually want? I know what I have. What do I actually want?"
--:-- Sawyer: And the thing is, before the Let Them Theory book and before the tools of "Let Them" and "Let Me," we had a lot of fun together. We could get drunk and hang out and party. We can go out to dinner. We can go on mother-daughter trips with everybody else and post all the photos. But underneath all the veneer, there is that sense of "I'm not a priority" and "This doesn't understand me because she's always working" and "I got to do it on my own" and "Dad's the one that's there for me, not her." And I had this sense of, no matter what I do, Sawyer's never going to warm up to me. Like I know she loves me, but she is intentional about needing to separate and not let me in. And I can feel it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Like you can feel it when somebody in your life is like arms crossed, swords up. "I'll let you in when I feel like it or I've had a couple tequilas." There's people in your life like that. And you may have good reason to have those boundaries up because they've hurt you and because they're not predictable. And the more that I was working on myself, and the more you started working on yourself, and the more we both knew we just wanted to be closer without the bullshit between us, that's where the opening happens. But first, you got to decide, "I want to change the story here that I'm telling myself for the sake of experiencing something different."
--:-- Sawyer: And at this point, I was not in the mindset of "I'm doing this to improve my relationship with my mom." Like that is not what I was going into this. It was, "I need some moolah and she's got it." So I just want to put that out there—this was not an intentional self-discovery, "I need to improve my relationship with my mother." This was how my mom marketed it: this is a launching pad. And I said, "Great. It sounds for New York. Yes. And for your next gig. And you can learn as much as you want. You can stay for as long as you want. There is no guardrails, but I really need some help with this project. So for however long you wish, it's up to you and we can get started." And I had said, "Okay, fine, but I'm never going to be full-time."
--:-- Mel Robbins: And... Let Them.
--:-- Sawyer: And I think it's so hilarious because growing up, every single week, I think mom would say once a week, "I just can't wait to have a family business." I wanted so desperately for you guys to be part of a family business because I saw how that kept my mom's family in close proximity in upstate New York. And I just figured the world is so busy. How cool would it be to all have work to keep us together? And since the work is digital and interesting and media, there's lots of different things you could do. So I always saw it as, why would I want someone else to run this business? Why wouldn't I want one of you to run this business? And what a better way to be able to be together than to work together.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I will say the experience of seeing you as a colleague has been an extraordinary gift because I get to see how your mind works. I get to see you in meetings with Audible and Hay House and the PR teams and the Today Show. And it's just incredible to get to see a completely different dimension of who you are. And I think if you've got a kid or a sibling or a parent that is an athlete or they're an artist or they do something where you can see this side of them, you know what I'm talking about. But for those of us that don't perform—like who knew your skill was a supercomputer brain that can do digital marketing and project management and be a business lead? That doesn't come out when you're little. And I probably would never have seen it in you, but for the fact that we had this experience of writing the book together.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I'm saying this because I love thinking you don't know the people you think you know. That there's a whole different side of the person that you love that you've never even experienced before. Whether it's artistic talent or a knack for writing poetry or they're an incredible sense of direction out in the woods and they can guide you anywhere. The stories that we tell ourselves about the people that we know the best trap us in a relationship with that version of the person. And it limits your ability to experience someone in a new light.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It's one of the reasons why so many of us love our friends so much more than our family. Because our friends come in and out of our lives and experience us out in the world, and our family almost never does. Our family still experiences us as we were inside that family system—as the golden child or the troublemaker or the one that's this. And you start to resent the fact that people don't see you for your full self. And that's what this experience this past year has done with my relationship with you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And it's also why the Let Them Theory and saying "Let Them" and saying "Let Me" is a game changer in your relationships. Because when you start to say "Let Them," especially with family, it creates the space for you to accept someone as they are and perhaps start seeing them for who they are for the very first time. Instead of judging or wishing or managing or worrying. When you say "Let Them," you do what everybody wants—you truly learn how to accept somebody instead of trying to control them. And then when you say "Let Me," you're now cuing yourself and reminding yourself that you get to choose how you show up with this person in your life. What energy you bring. What sort of questions you ask. And when you start to focus on the energy that you bring and how you show up with the people that you think you know best, that's what creates the ripple effect that creates change.
--:-- Sawyer: When we started working together, I finally understood everything that you do and everything that you have gone through in the past 25 years that I've been alive. And I just had such an overwhelming appreciation and compassion for everything that you do on a daily basis and how much stress and overload—which I am now experiencing—you experience. And it's...
--:-- Mel Robbins: Running a business this size.
--:-- Sawyer: Yes. No one knows how big this business is. It is insane. And I genuinely don't think Kendall, Oakley, or dad will ever know how much you go through. And I would never know how much you go through. And everyone that is relying on you and needing your attention and needing things from you. And I think that that also really helped me basically look through your frame of reference and your lens. And I think it just allowed me to have so much more compassion for you and so much more understanding and just appreciation. And once I saw the internal side of the business and truly put myself in your shoes, I think it's only then that I was like, "I need to show up differently. And I want to cheer for her. I don't want to boo her. And now I understand."
--:-- Mel Robbins: It's such an important point. And this brings me to a takeaway for you listening. If you want to change the narrative or the story or the dynamic with somebody that you care about, especially if you've known them for a long time, you have to truly want to step into their shoes. And we talk about this tool called "Frame of Reference" that I learned from my friend Lisa Bilyeu at length and how you use it with the Let Them Theory. But I'm going to give you a couple of quick examples because this is really important.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I recently heard somebody say to me, "I don't understand why my kids are upset by who we voted for in the election." And what I said to them is, "I don't think you're asking the right question. Because you just said to me, 'I don't understand why they're upset with me.' Maybe the question needs to be, 'I need to step into their shoes to try to understand why they might be upset with me.'" See, I think we stand on our side of the line and we look at somebody else and we judge them and say, "Well, I don't understand why they're like this." Have you ever stopped and asked yourself, "I wonder what it was like for my mom. I wonder what it was like for my sister. I wonder what it was like for my little brother." We're so consumed with our experience that we start to build a narrative around it, but we never actually even want to step in and consider.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I remember my relationship with my mom shifted immediately the second I stopped to ask myself, "Wonder what it was like for my mom to be 19 years old in the middle of Kansas City, married to my dad who was starting medical school, and here she has a newborn and she's working nights at the IRS. Her family is halfway across the country. It's just her and my dad who's starting medical school. She's a brand new mom. She's just got her friend. I wonder what that was like." And when you stop and step in someone else's shoes, what you realize is most people are not monsters. Most people are doing the best that they can with the resources and the life experience that they have. In the words of Dr. Avalon, people do well when they can.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And we tend to judge from our point of view, and then we sit there and cross our arms and go, "I don't understand why my mom's so upset with me. I don't understand why my sister's so selfish. I don't understand why..." Well, have you stopped and asked yourself, "I wonder what it must be like to be that person. If I assume good intent, I wonder what that must be like." Because there's a difference between wishing someone would understand you and actually taking the time and being interested in understanding why they might think the way that they think.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And when you're in a relationship with somebody—a sibling, a parent, an adult child—where you have so much baggage built up, you are literally pulling up to any conversation on the phone, any text message, anything, I want you to imagine you have a freaking U-Haul next to you. You got everything that's ever happened, all the death by a thousand cuts. You're both kind of locked in this. It just takes one person to change the dynamic. But here's the thing. If you're the one that goes to therapy, if you're the one that listens to the podcast episodes, if you're the one that reads the Let Them Theory book, if you're the one that starts to calm yourself down and act like a more mature adult in the relationship, more loving person—if you're the one that's using the tools and you're saying, "I wonder what it was like when my mom was such and such," or "I wonder what it must have been like for my little sister," or "I wonder what it was like for my dad," and you step into their shoes—do not expect the other person to do the same thing.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Because expecting someone else to meet you at the same level that you are now trying to learn about and meet yourself and go through life—they cannot do that unless they've done the work. And what we write about extensively in the Let Them Theory book—in fact, the book is divided into eight sections, and one of the sections is all about how our attempts to make other people change and our expectations that they should keeps the dynamic stuck. And so the hardest part about all of this is that yes, you can change the dynamic, no question. Absolutely. And all you need is you. You do not need the other person's participation because your behavior and your emotional maturity is so powerful that it influences the dynamic. And if you're lucky, over time, it changes the dynamic.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I want you to think about it this way. Let's say you have a really antagonistic relationship with somebody. Every time you get on the phone or you see each other, it's like you both pull up in your U-Haul trailers with all the baggage. You both hope it goes better. But the relationship is a lot like a tug of war. You each pick up the rope, you hook it to the U-Haul, and now you're pulling each other with all the baggage and the weight. The fastest way to win the tug of war is to actually just drop the rope. Don't play. Let them. Let them tug. Don't tug back. And what's going to happen is the person's going to tantrum. The person's going to say flipping things. "Oh, is this what you learned in therapy? Is this therapy speak that you're using on me now?" Let them say it. "I don't know, mom. Just tired of the tension. Really would love to have a better relationship with you, so I'm trying." Oh, let them. Because they don't know how to operate in the new dynamic yet. They're still committed to the baggage and the story. They don't know anything different.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And now that you're showing up different, you're calmer. You're not pulling on the rope. You're not stabbing back. You're just showing up. You're clear that you want to shift the dynamic. Every time they say something that would normally agitate the hell out of you, just say "Let Them." And "Let Me" remind myself that even when they act like an eight-year-old, I'm not their parent and it's not my job to manage this. So let them. And when you stay in your power and you continue to do it over and over and over, the person in your life reveals how much they can meet you at this level. And you might be surprised.
--:-- Mel Robbins: There are people in my life that I've had antagonistic relationships with, and now that I have the Let Them Theory and I show up very differently—I'm calmer and I'm more compassionate and I'm more understanding and I walk away the second I sniff any kind of stress or antagonism coming, I just remove myself from the conversation—the dynamic's different. As I step into someone else's shoes and I go, "I wonder what it must be like to be..." and I really play out the story in my mind from the other person's point of view—the sibling that didn't get married, the sibling that can't get it together—"Wonder what it must be like to be the one that mom and dad is supporting. That can't feel that great. Huh. Wow. I could be a little bit more compassionate here. Maybe it's not worth my time and energy to actually get bothered by this. Maybe I should just bathe myself in feeling sorry for somebody and a little bit more compassionate that this is what their life is like and just let them. And let me say, let me remind myself that I'm really proud of where I'm at. And I'm proud that I'm the emotionally mature person."
--:-- Mel Robbins: And what you're going to notice is it takes time. Because as you said, Sawyer, and I thought it was a beautiful thing to share, that when you were angry, you got my attention. And a lot of people in your life are angry or they're in breakdown or they treat you in passive aggressive ways because it gets your attention. And what does that tell you? It tells you all they ever wanted was your attention. And maybe you can be the one that can close this distance because you start giving them the attention in an entirely new way. And when somebody starts to feel tended to, and they start to feel like they have a little bit more of your attention, it's kind of shocking how people change.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Now, it doesn't always happen. And that's something that's important to say. Because "Let Them" doesn't change things. It creates the space for things to change. And that's why this is so powerful.
--:-- Sawyer: I loved the visual of the tug of rope because immediately what I thought was, if you put me and you on either side of the tug of rope, every single time that I was mad at you, I was tugging. And every single time you would basically hold on tight and tug closer to me because you just wanted to save me and do all this and do all that. Whenever we fight, whenever we used to argue in the past, it would be both of us tug of warring. And I think with the Let Them Theory, which you started implementing with me and our family way before I even knew it, I think what ended up happening is I would start to tug and you would drop the rope and I would fall down. Which happens every single time. And it's not falling down in the sense of "I'm less than" or "screw her." It's more so, "Oh, she's just not playing this game anymore." And I think that's what's so beautiful.
--:-- Sawyer: What is so beautiful about the Let Them Theory is you actually can't play the game of tug of war when one person isn't playing. It takes two. And none of us want to see that we are a participant in a dynamic. And that's why it takes one person to change not only the dynamic with anyone in your life, but it takes one person to change an entire family system.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And as much as you can change the dynamic with anybody and you can improve any relationship because you can shift how you show up, you have to always remember something. There is one thing you will never be able to change, and that's another person. People only change when they feel like changing and when the conditions for changing are present. And that's important because if somebody doesn't want to change or they can't change due to some condition in their life right now, they're not going to change. And there's too many relationships where you're wishing someone would change and you're working against the fundamentals of human wiring, which is people have to feel that they are in control of their own lives. That's why they're tugging on the rope. They want your attention. They want to win. They want to be right. So they tug on the rope. When you say "Let Them" and you don't play that game, you just shifted the dynamic.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And as things shift and it impacts someone else, now they have to question, "Huh, if what I used to do doesn't work, maybe I should try something else." And that means you're triggering the truth about human beings, which is they only change when they feel like it. And if you're changing the dynamic and what has always happened and all the baggage is no longer relevant because you're not arguing over the same old crap anymore, then all of a sudden there's a lot less to argue about. And that's what creates this space that makes someone else actually want to change. Because most people are actually seeking your attention. They're seeking to feel important and seen. And they've just been going about it in very negative ways or in subconscious patterns that just don't work anymore.
--:-- Mel Robbins: As you're listening to me and I share all this and everything that we've learned the hard way, I really can't wait to see what you do with this conversation. And I can't wait to hear from you and to hear how it's improved your life, your relationships, how it's helped to disappear this distance that we're talking about. And I just am excited for you to share this with someone that you care about.
--:-- Mel Robbins: In the process of Sawyer and I really learning how to use the Let Them Theory to create more space for our relationship to change, it's really been extraordinary to get to know you in a totally different way. And I think that's one of the most exciting things about talking about this today with you as you're listening to us—you have no idea what's possible in your relationships. You only know the way it's been. But I see a bigger possibility for you. There's no doubt in my mind that people in your life can change. Don't you agree, Soy?
--:-- Mel Robbins: So we start writing the book together. And geez.
--:-- Sawyer: What do you mean, "and geez"?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Geez, oh geez. It was not a breeze.
--:-- Sawyer: Oh my God, no. We—
--:-- Sawyer: This was horrible. I genuinely think if the topic of the book was not letting other people be themselves, live their lives in order for you to live your best life and for you to finally be yourself, I would not be sitting here today.
--:-- Mel Robbins: How come?
--:-- Sawyer: Because this book writing process brought us closer, but also was weird. It was hard. It was really hard.
--:-- Mel Robbins: The Let Them Theory and saying "Let Them" and then saying "Let Me" as a way to diffuse tension and frustration and stress in your relationships—it doesn't make anything easy. It makes it happen.
--:-- Mel Robbins: As we are writing this book together, just imagine the craziness of this. We have a mother-daughter relationship. A daughter who does not want to work for her mother. A mom who is stressed out and running this massive business, dying to be closer to you. We now have this project that we're working on only because you need money. And it just so happens that the project heals our relationship because the tool that we're writing about is a tool that brings you closer to other people by letting go of controlling them. And it forces you to let other people be themselves, which makes you see them for the first time.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And so I said "Let Them, Let Them, Let Them" with you probably five times a day.
--:-- Sawyer: I think I said it 25 times a day.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And let me just paint the picture for you guys. Okay. So we are living together. Which is—I would not recommend. Do not recommend. Do a project virtually or something. But we are living together. So every single day for the entire last year, this is how it would go. We'd wake up. "Hey, mom." "Hey, Soy." "How are you?" "Oh my gosh, you sleep well?"
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yeah, sleep well. Okay. Then we go to exercise together. No boundaries. Then we eat breakfast together. One of us is making the same smoothie for the both of us. Then we're in such a positive mood. We go up to the office, we sit down.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And then all of a sudden, our personalities come out.
--:-- Sawyer: Mom, her brain is the most beautiful, creative, absolute disaster tornado I've ever worked with in my entire life. She cannot make a decision. She is all over the place. And you cannot contain her in structure. She wants to creative write for—I don't even know how you got your other two books done, to be completely honest—but she would love to creative write every single day for the rest of time. She wants no boundaries, no structure. She pretty much writes the same thing 20 times in a row, and it sucks.
--:-- Sawyer: And then I come in, and all I want to do is what is the organization, what is the structure. Give me the table of contents. Give me the outline. And I would literally set up outlines for her. Write this sentence here. Write this, this here. Write this. And the amount—you should see our Google Drive. It is like 5,000 different documents because it is me creating structure, Mel not writing, mom not writing in it, and then her creating a whole separate document where she chooses to write everything. And then coming back to me.
--:-- Sawyer: And then we come back together—it was both of our brains do not work well together. And so the entire time I was trying to control her, and she was trying to basically run away from me. And so every single day, it would start off with us just saying, "Let them" every single time. I really had to let go of my need to put this into a structure and come up with the main points and summarize it and just work in order of chapters. Meanwhile, we are all over the place and creative writing and we're doing this and then we're scrapping this.
--:-- Sawyer: We literally went through 11 manuscripts. And when I say 11 manuscripts, it's not a sentence change. It is a scrap the entire thing and rewrite from page zero, the entire manuscript, 11 of them in the last year, all of which I said, "I think we're good here. I think we can..." And it was not good enough.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I agree. Let them.
--:-- Sawyer: But I literally had to say, "Let them" every single time. And so that's about 12 PM when we start getting hangry and annoyed. And then we eat because we both notice that we're starting to get snippy and on edge with each other. And then comes the afternoon where it can go one of two ways, mostly one way, which is blow up fight, crying. "You don't listen to me. You don't do this. You don't do that." And then it's a total relationship therapy session between the two of us where we end up crying and hugging and then getting back to work.
--:-- Sawyer: And then if it was a good day, we have a glass of wine. If it was a bad day, we have a glass of wine. And then we go to bed. And we literally every single day, Monday through Sunday, that was our routine. And then in between that, producing all these podcast episodes and giving speeches and everything, it was a lot. It was too much.
--:-- Sawyer: But the bigger takeaway is this, because I don't want you to be discouraged from ever working in a family business. And I don't want you to think that all of the tension and fighting was for naught because the bottom line is writing a book is a colossal undertaking. Typically, you would do it in two years. We produced this one in eight months. That is insane in terms of the timeline. And the only reason why it got done, it was because of you.
--:-- Sawyer: And when you're not only dealing with somebody that you have a story about and you want to have a better relationship with but you also have very different working styles and thinking styles, using the Let Them Theory is a lifesaver because every time I would say "Let them" because Sawyer was yelling at me that I was rewriting a chapter and I wasn't following the outline and why even bother doing an outline if you're not even going to follow it—every time I said "Let them," what happened is I recognized the genius in your brain.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Because this is how you think. You know, in life there are what I call box jumpers and box steppers. So if you imagine a path, every step A, B, C, D, E, the path leaves from point A to point C. You're the kind of person, Sawyer, that you don't need to see point Z. You know exactly what A to B, B to C, C to D. You are a genius. You are a box stepper. You can take any process. You can organize a structure around it. Like my brain cannot do that. It can't. Your dad is the same way.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I am a different type of thinker. I am what you call a box jumper. And it is my genius to stand at point A and see all the way down the line and go, "Oh, we're going to W." Now I have no idea how to create a map to get there, but I know we're going to get there. And here's the problem with most of our relationships. I want Sawyer to be a box jumper. I want her to think like me. I want her to be like me. And that's why I feel frustrated and tension and anger and resentment because you're not like me and you don't think like me.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Meanwhile, Sawyer just wishes I was a box stepper, that I could go from A to B and then B to C, and she doesn't understand why my brain doesn't work the way that her brain works. And I think most of us build up this invisible distance with one another because we've never learned how to say, "Let them."
--:-- Mel Robbins: And when you say "Let them," and you let somebody freak out because their brain works differently or because their expectations weren't met—I think a lot about this, especially around the holidays or big celebrations. Of course your family's bummed you're not coming. They love you. Shouldn't they be upset? Shouldn't they be disappointed? I mean, what's the alternative? "I'm glad you're not coming because I hate you anyway."
--:-- Mel Robbins: Instead of saying, "Oh well, what does it actually mean if someone is disappointed?" It just means they love me and they just wish I were there. It doesn't mean I have to change my plans. Because two things can be true at once. Someone can be disappointed in me and still love me. And I can be kind of sad that this year I'm going to my in-laws and I'm going to miss out. But those can both be true.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And what can also be true is my daughter and I can be very different thinkers and we can be wired very differently, and through understanding and acceptance, there's room for both of us. And it's in that space where Sawyer can be frustrated because I'm yet again—as an artist, that's what I am—I blow something up because I know that this isn't going to take us to W. And I can't explain to her how we're going to get to W, but I know her genius will get us there.
--:-- Mel Robbins: If I can create space for your experience to be sad or emotional or mad and just let them, and then I say, "Well, let me. Let me be honest with myself about what I know to be true, and let me hold space for you to be upset." Same thing's true with you. Okay, let them. Here goes mom again, the crazy insane artist, let her. And let me remind myself as the project manager on this, if this doesn't hit the deadline, not my fault, it's hers. So let her blow it up because it's her name on the cover. Let her do it because she's going to have to reap the consequences of it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And it was not easy. And that's the thing about the Let Them Theory as a tool. It's a tool that you are going to use every day in every relationship. I literally say it every day in my marriage. I say it every day with Sawyer because little things piss you off. Little things make you roll your eyes. But instead of letting those little things become the invisible cuts that create the distance that makes your relationship slowly die and resentment take over, when you say "Let them," you just let them go and it doesn't build up. And you learn how to love the person as they are instead of constantly wishing they were just like you, because they're never going to be.
--:-- Sawyer: I think that also using the Let Them Theory in this book writing process made this book so much better because you let me write from a 20s perspective and I let you, even though I can't relate from a 50s perspective. And so I feel like this book has so many relatable stories. And so it reaches so many different age groups—mine, yours, everyone's in between—that it actually brought the finishing product to be so much better. And I think that that, just having both of our writing styles woven in throughout, is really amazing.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, if we hadn't had Let Them, we probably would have thrown this project out the window and said, "Let's not bother." And you would have quit and moved to New York and said, "See, I told you." But it was the tool of saying "Let Them" and then saying "Let Me" that created the space for us to work together on a project and have very different styles and also very different experiences. Because this is my ninth book. We've done six audiobooks for Audible. We did the Five Second Rule and the High Five Habit. So I've been through this rodeo. You haven't. And so it's also this experience of bringing someone into a project who is learning in the seat, doing a remarkable job, but also all the stress and anxiety that comes from never having done it before.
--:-- Sawyer: 100%. And I think that also you, I noticed that you had done "Let Them" a lot with me when I was freaking out about things that you didn't think were a big deal and vice versa. And I want to say two things. I want to say one piece of advice of another way that you can use "Let Them" and "Let Me." And I want to say one warning that I experienced during this process.
--:-- Sawyer: So the first is that what I love about the Let Them Theory is that you can vocalize it. And so I feel like in a lot of our conversations at the end of the day, mom, I would say to you, "I am trying to let you have your process. And I'm trying to let you creatively write about this topic. And at the same time, I need you to let me create these briefs and create this, because this is how I think. And otherwise, I don't understand what you're doing." And so I feel like it's a tool for you to approach a conversation as well as saying it to yourself. Whereas you can go up to your loved one or whoever you are hoping to communicate better with or build your relationship stronger and say, "I am trying to let you do X. And at the same time, I need you to let me do X."
--:-- Mel Robbins: So that is a genius takeaway. And let me tell you why, just to add to this, because it's way bigger than working on a project with somebody that thinks differently. There are going to be times in any relationship, whether it's with a sibling or a parent or an adult child or the person that you're in a relationship with, where you don't like what they're about to go do. You're worried about it. You think it's a dumb thing.
--:-- Mel Robbins: For example, let's say you have somebody in your life who's planning on quitting a great job to go start a business. They want to follow their dreams, right? Of course you're worried about it. Most businesses fail. Of course you have concerns about whether or not it's going to be successful and whether or not this is the right time. But in life, you have to let them. You have to let them live their lives. You've got to let them follow their path. You have to let them try things and fail.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So you can say to someone in your life that is about to change their major or quit their job or date somebody that you're like, "Red flags, red flags, red flags"—which we all know nobody listens to anyway when you try to warn people, so you gotta let them. But it is 1000% effective for you to go and say, "You need to let me do what I need to do in this regard. So you need to let me create a budget. If you're going to go quit your job and launch a business, you need to let me create a spreadsheet that shows you exactly how much money we have before we run out, which then allows me to manage what I'm worried about without trying to control you to manage what I'm worried about." Do you see what I'm saying?
--:-- Mel Robbins: And so the second that you said to me, because I kept going, "I don't need a table of contents. I don't need this. Just let me write." And you'd be like, "Mom, I'm going to let you do your thing. But you have to let me organize myself in a way that makes me feel comfortable when I get on the phone with the publisher. Because I need to organize myself and I realize I'm responsible for that." And you also started to realize controlling you isn't going to actually give you power.
--:-- Sawyer: And then the warning that I will say is I found myself throughout the process, whenever you and I would get into it a little bit, that I would always "Let them" and I would always use that tool, but I rarely followed up with "Let me." And let me explain. So you would say, "I need to do it this way. I need this from you. I need this, blah, blah, blah, X, Y, Z." And my initial response, I would tell myself, "Let them, do not react, do not play into it, do not try to be right." And as a result, my response was always silence. And I would always just let you go and let you do your process. And I would sit back and feel very sad and emotional and left out and felt like you weren't listening to me. And as a result, my emotions would bubble up and bubble up and then I would explode.
--:-- Sawyer: And I think what was really crucial and that I really noticed is that whenever I use "Let them" with you, I always had to follow it up with "Let me," which is don't react, but collect my emotions, take a breath, say "Let them, let mom, let her do her process." Instead, "Let me communicate how this makes me feel" or communicate how her not using the organization or disregarding the months worth of work that I've done and creating something brand new is making me feel.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, and I want to broaden this out because we really, in the course of writing the book about the Let Them Theory and how stressful it was, use these tools all day long. And so this applies in every relationship. Because if all you do is say "Let them," and even if it's like the example of you go home and your mom is like, "I don't know, I get all stressed out when people are coming over and got to clean the house." And anybody that tries to help, I'm bristly. And if all the family does is say, "Let them. Let her get all worked up. Let her micromanage." And nobody then says to themselves, "I got to say, 'Let me. Mom, when you get like this, it's not fun for anybody. Let me help you.'"
--:-- Mel Robbins: What that does is it breaks up the dynamic where there's invisible distance. Because your silence when somebody's behavior is making you upset, it actually creates distance. Because when you stay silent, you take a step away from somebody. And when you remind yourself by saying "Let me," you now prompt yourself to say something. And every time you say something, not so that you control the other person, not so that you change what's happening, but so that you say how you're feeling or how somebody's behavior is impacting you, you actually take a step closer to somebody.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And it's in hearing how my behavior was impacting you that would have me stop in my tracks and change how I was operating because I didn't want to make you feel that way. I was just all stressed out and worried about the book deadline. So of course I'm doing what I think is going to work. Same thing with getting ready for guests to come over. Everybody's running around like a lunatic because they're stressed out. And when we say "Let them, let them, let them," we don't let somebody else's stress impact us. But when we say "Let me tell them how their behavior is impacting me," now I'm taking a step closer and seeking connection instead of creating more distance. Does that make sense?
--:-- Sawyer: Yeah, 100%. And what's so beautiful about the Let Them Theory is the fact that it's a gift to someone else as well.
--:-- Mel Robbins: How so?
--:-- Sawyer: I think that all I want is for people to use the Let Them Theory on me. I want people to say "Let Sawyer do her thing." I want people to say "Let Sawyer be who she is." I want you to say "Let Sawyer want to organize and have her OCD and let me be who I am without trying to control me." And so I think that our relationship improved because we both were using "Let Them" on each other. And so I think that the Let Them Theory improves relationships because it's not only when you start using it, the first step in improving and breaking this toxic dynamic, but I think it's such a great gift to share with other people and to share with your loved ones because when they start using it on you, you're going to be like, "Hallelujah."
--:-- Mel Robbins: Hallelujah, girl. Keep using it. It's so amazing.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I do too. I do too. It creates room for more love when you say it. And so I want to just make sure that you're leaving not only seeing yourself in a dynamic with a sister or a parent or an adult child or somebody that you love where this sort of invisible distance and weirdness exists. I want to make sure that you really kind of get some of the key takeaways.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And the first one is, we all have a story about the other person. And until you recognize that you have a story about the other person—and Sawyer's story was what about me?
--:-- Sawyer: I think my story about you was that you don't care about me and that you only care about work and my siblings.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I still hate hearing it, even though I know it's not. It's not my current story. What's your current story?
--:-- Sawyer: That I think my current story is that you've gone above and beyond and worked your ass off your entire life to provide for us and to show up for us and to love us in so many ways and just be the best role model in the world. And I think you're the best mom ever.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And my story was that you're always mad at me and I've done something wrong and that you don't need me and that you don't want me unless I'm paying for something or you have an emergency. And that is not my story. My story now is that I get to see you every day and work with you and I have just crazy admiration for the way that you think and your work ethic. And as your mother, I'm just worried. I want you to have a little fun. That's all, but I got to let them, let them.
--:-- Sawyer: Book launch is almost over. Book launch, then I'll have some fun.
--:-- Mel Robbins: That's tool number one. Recognize the story you're telling and then ask yourself, what is the story I want? And if there is this invisible distance or this weird friction, what do you want? And it might just be, "I'd just like to be a little closer. I'd like to have more fun again. I'd like to stop arguing about stupid stuff. I'd like us to both come out of our corners and uncross our arms and just realize we're on the same side."
--:-- Mel Robbins: And that brings me to the next thing, which is it's very helpful to stop and ask yourself, "I wonder what it's like." I wonder what it's like to be the oldest in a family of three where mom's always working and dad's business failed and mom's always gone and she's always stressed out. I wonder what that's like. And to have a younger sister that's on a stage and that is this and that. I wonder what it's like to feel the weight of responsibility and to feel like you're not seen or that things are never good enough.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And when you stop and go, "I wonder what it's like," and you put yourself in their shoes for the sake of truly wanting to understand what their story might be, it allows you to lower your sword and uncross your arms and drop the rope and really come from more of a place of compassion.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And then you're going to use the Let Them Theory and you're going to say, "Let them." Whenever they're just being themselves, whenever the U-Haul arrives with all the baggage, whenever the old stuff comes up, whenever you feel the distance, the stress, the frustration, the whatever—let them. Because the more you let them be, the better your relationships are going to become and the more the dynamic shifts.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And then you got to always remember to say, "Let me," because that's where you remind yourself that what you feel and what you need and the actions you take really matter here.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And the final piece of advice that I want to give you is that there's no doubt in my mind that the Let Them Theory alone would have transformed our relationship. But it was accelerated in terms of the timeline for transformation because we had a project to work on. And this is a really important thing to consider. I bet you've had experience in your life where something happened, maybe somebody got really sick in your family and everybody drops everything and runs in to help. And suddenly the baggage isn't there because there is something other than the history that everybody's organized around that made you be on the same side.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And so I want you to consider, is there some kind of project that you could think up that could help you erase some of this distance? Could you ask for help? Maybe there's a back bedroom you need to move out and you want to set up an office and one of your siblings or your mom or one of your adult kids is fantastic at interior design and Pinterest boards. What if you ask them for a little bit of help? It's a project that you could organize yourselves around where you're on the same side.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And this kind of thing isn't just what Sawyer and I experienced. I dug into the research because I was really curious about this. Turns out that there was a study done. In fact, two of them that I want to share with you because I think you'll find it empowering. The National Institute of Health wrote about how when people have to solve a problem together—we had to write a book. Maybe your problem is you have a kid that's been diagnosed with dyslexia and you don't know what to do, but your sister's really good at this stuff. Or maybe you're going through a breakup and you need help and your mom's not that great until you actually need consoling.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And so when you have a project that you can work on, a problem that you're going to solve together, number one, it creates this common goal, which is going to give you and this person in your life a shared purpose. It's going to allow the two of you to collaborate. And the other thing that it does is it creates mutual reliance. In any relationship where there's this invisible distance, you're not relying on each other. You're actually resentful and antagonistic of one another. When you come up with something cool, whether it's a project or a little trip you can take together or something cool you could do together, it's going to help you create a stronger bond because it gets the focus off the dynamic and onto the project or the problem you're solving or the trip you're going to take, something that creates this sense that you actually belong together.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I'm going to share one more thing. Do you know, they actually did a study—this is out of the University of Texas—where hurricanes, they did this after Hurricane Harvey. And I'm not suggesting that hurricanes don't come with problems, but when a family or a couple goes through a natural disaster together, there is a massive jump in happiness after the hurricane goes through. Why? Because a natural disaster suddenly reminds you of what actually matters. And all those little things that have built up over time and that created all that distance suddenly don't matter because you've got bigger things you need to deal with and problem solve and work on together to get through it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And that's what that book did for you and me. That's what you can create with anybody in your life. And using these simple tools, and of course the Let Them Theory, you have a couple simple things that you can do that will help you close the distance and create a different connection with somebody that you deeply care about. And I really hope you do. Anything else you want to say, Soy?
--:-- Sawyer: The last thing I'm going to say is something I'm really excited about is that you and I not only are going to have this tool for the rest of our life, but we're going to use this tool for the rest of our life. And I am so confident it's going to continue with every use that our relationship will get better and better. And the fact that we have this book and this tool that I can give to my own kids to improve—I'm 25. I don't have kids. But eventually, eventually.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Do you use it with your significant other?
--:-- Sawyer: Yes. Every day.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Does he use it with you?
--:-- Sawyer: I hope so. But he will be the first to be getting the book. So I'm very excited to gift it to him so he can use the Let Them Theory on me.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I'm really excited too. Like that's the thing is that everybody thinks that this is about other people. It's actually about you. You want people to be saying, "Let them." You want your whole family to know this. And I am so excited for this to be out in the world. I'm excited for you to learn to use it. I'm excited for you to drop the rope and stop doing the tugging back and forth with people. I'm excited for you to close the distance between you and people that you care about. And if they continue to be emotionally immature, you're going to have the Let Them Theory by your side because it does take time.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I want to thank you for being here together with me and Sawyer. I'm so excited for the people in your life that you're going to share this with and that you're going to give the Let Them Theory book to. And I cannot wait to hear how you use it. For you, Sawyer, I just want to say I love you so much. It is the greatest gift in the world to have had this experience together and to get to share work together and experience a whole different side of you that I would never have if I was just your mom.
--:-- Sawyer: I love you, mom.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love you too. And I also wanted to be sure to say, in case no one else says it to you today, that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And the Let Them Theory is absolutely gonna help you do that. Alrighty, I'll be waiting for you the moment you hit play in the very next episode. I'll see you there.
--:-- [Off-mic chatter and laughter]
--:-- Mel Robbins: Do we like the pony? What's the pony?
--:-- Sawyer: In my head. Oh.
--:-- Sawyer: Let's let it out.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay, I can tell now that we've worked together for almost a year.
--:-- Sawyer: No, I actually like the pony sometimes.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay. Hey, here we go.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Does that sound good, Yuna?
--:-- Sawyer: Perfect, guys, yeah.
--:-- Mel Robbins: This is where you got to slay me, Sawyer.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay. Oh, that's okay. Sorry, Oak.
--:-- Sawyer: You've become me, Sawyer.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I'm sorry. Okay, let's start over.
--:-- Sawyer: This is fantastic though. Holiday season. Do do do. Get you Let Them Theory book tomorrow.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Was fire.
--:-- Sawyer: Fire cracker.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Thank you. That was so good. Yes. Before. Yes. Perfect. I forgot.
--:-- Sawyer: Okay, great. Oh my God. Very cute.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love you.
--:-- Sawyer: I love you too.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What a gift you are. Love you.
--:-- Sawyer: Wow. You're awesome. That was so great.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write, and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.
