--:-- Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Okay, I'm so glad you're here today because today is one of those conversations where I need you to put your arm around me.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You know how I always say that the Mel Robbins podcast is like you and I going on a walk together and sorting out life and all kinds of topics together. Well, today, I want to talk about something that's been on my mind for a long time, and that is my relationship with alcohol.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And if I'm being honest, I've resisted having this conversation on the podcast because I'm not ready to remove alcohol from my life entirely. But I am so conflicted about drinking. I know it's bad for my health. I have so many other healthy habits, and yet I still love to have a cocktail. I still love to have a glass of wine. And maybe it's because Chris doesn't really drink that much. And so I often am confronted with, do I have a glass of wine alone? Do I not?
--:-- Mel Robbins: And this isn't just a conversation about alcohol. You may not have any issue with alcohol. You may be sober. You may not really drink at all. You may be able to have one beer or one glass of wine and never think about it. But you probably have something else in your life that you're conflicted about. Maybe it's how much money you spend. Maybe it's an addiction to sugar. Maybe you play way too many video games or you spend too much time scrolling on social media. You know it's a problem. Or maybe you wonder if it's a problem. And you keep going back and forth. I should stop, but I don't stop. Should I stop? I don't know. What should I do?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, a friend of mine told me about this incredible woman named Rachel Hart. Rachel is an expert at helping people understand their urges and create healthier and normal relationships with the things in life that you crave. Her work focuses on creating, quote, a normal relationship with alcohol, whatever that might mean for you. But everything that we're going to talk about today is going to help you take control of any area of your life where you feel this conflict or you feel out of control or you wonder if you have a problem and you just can't seem to get to the bottom of it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: But here we go. Put your arm around me because this is going to be one of those episodes where I'm processing my feelings in real time live in our conversation as you and I are walking and talking. So let's do this. Rachel Hart, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Thank you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay, Rachel. We're just going to jump in with a confessional. Is that okay? I mean, is this the way that we should start this thing? Okay, great. I've just noticed that I have a lot of agita about it. Should I drink? Should I not drink? Is it bad if I'm drinking? And I wanted to talk to you because I just love your approach. I love your approach to, as you say, having a quote, normal relationship with alcohol in your life and understanding your urges. And I don't even know where to begin.
--:-- Mel Robbins: The more that I learn about neuroscience and the body and the fact that alcohol is poison, the more I'm thinking to myself, why the fuck am I drinking if it's this bad for me? Oh yeah, I know because I like the taste of it. And every once in a while, it's fun to celebrate with friends. So that's me. That's me, the hot mess, Mel Robbins. Or maybe not a hot mess. A little bit. Maybe normal to be conflicted. Is it normal to be conflicted about alcohol?
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yes. Yes, of course it is. I always say that the relationship that you have with alcohol is such a window into the relationship that you have with yourself. And so from that place, it can be so much more than, oh, I just don't want to drink anymore or I want to drink less, or I want to just make more intentional choices. And I think all of those are great goals. But the idea of, you know, what is it that you really want? Like, what is it that you're really desiring? I talk to people about that a lot. And I think that the work that you do to change your relationship with alcohol can be such a powerful window into that.
--:-- Rachel Hart: This is also such a highly charged issue. Right. And so a lot of times people have that intuition, they have that kind of inner knowing of like, I don't know, maybe I want to look more closely at this. But then like, Oh, God, what does that mean? Do I have to stop drinking for the rest of my life? Do I have to put a label on so what you're experiencing, I just want to say is very normal. The conflict that you have, you know, for a long time, I was like, do I have a split personality? What is going on? Because part of me had so much desire and love to drink. And part of me was also like, I don't know that this is creating the best outcomes for you. And I thought that that conflict was a sign that something was wrong with me rather than, you know, you've got two different parts of your brain that care about different things. And so yeah, you're going to be conflicted sometimes about your desires. That's normal.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Is it appropriate for me to tell you this soon in our relationship that I love you? I've started to think about this, like there's something wrong with me and I have a problem. And when I look at everybody's relationship with alcohol, it is kind of fucked up. I even look at our 20 somethings and their relationship with alcohol is crazy. You know, like they just go on these benders. And then it's like, oh, I'm not going to drink all week. I got to get back healthy again. And that's what I used to be like.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I think about how much effort goes into the, am I going to have a gin and tonic tonight? Or am I not going to have anything at all? And then if I do have a drink, I should probably take some Advil before I go to bed. And the whole cycle that happens in the morning when you feel kind of hung over and I wake up and I'm like, why did I do that? Now I'm not as clear and I don't feel like exercising. And I probably shouldn't have had that wine and it tasted like shit anyway. And it was a lot of sugar. And so I realized that there's a lot of active energy that I have around alcohol.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I wanted to talk to you because I'm like, I'm pretty sure I don't have a problem. But what I do have a problem with is the amount of conflict that I feel like I'm doing something wrong. And I feel like I have a split personality because I'm, I literally argue for it and against it every single time I use it where I'm like, well it's just a gin and tonic for god's sakes i mean it's just like who cares and then i'm like well you know the poison and you know you said you weren't gonna drink tonight so you're a liar and that means you have a problem and then i'm like well no i don't because i'm just having a gin and tonic for god's sakes and then i fill it up with topo chico after that so what's wrong with that well you know you said you weren't gonna drink and then that's a this and then you're gonna sleep like shit because you're in menopause and like it's like this beat down so yeah help me help me help all of us how did you start doing this do you drink I have so many questions yeah okay well so I will say that I started drinking in college I was 17 and I very I'm a way better drinker than you are I started at 14 man I was very quickly like oh this is the solution to all my problems like we don't have to feel awkward we don't have to feel anxious I don't have to listen to any of my internal critic or any of my, you know, hang ups. This is amazing. Where has this been? That was my experience.
--:-- Rachel Hart: What you're describing, the kind of 20 something that I like would work very hard during the week. Also during the week, a constant kind of PS, don't ever make any mistakes. Don't do anything wrong. You must do everything perfectly. And then the weekend for me was my outlet to be like, OK, like finally, not only do I get to stop feeling anxious and awkward and have these hangups. But also, I can like be a little wild and mess up. And this is the way to feel sexy and confident and have fun.
--:-- Rachel Hart: And so, you know, that was something that my brain was learning. And I think it's really important to to reiterate that we are learning something when we drink, the brain is always learning. So we're not just learning to acquire the taste. We're learning, hey, this is what we do when we watch the game or at sporting events or at celebrations or on vacation. So we're learning both when we do it, and we're also learning, this is how I relax, right? This is how I connect. This is how I open up. And so all of that is unconsciously happening below the surface.
--:-- Rachel Hart: And I think we get to this point where we start to want to examine our drinking, and maybe I want to drink less, or maybe I'm unsure about this. And we are trying to do it from this place of, okay, well, I know it's not good for me, right? I know I shouldn't do this, or I should be more responsible, as opposed to, hey, well, you know, what has my brain learned, right? Can I start to understand that? Can I start to teach my brain something different about what alcohol is a symbol for? I mean, it's, it becomes a symbol for so many things. And I think we just look at it from the superficial of like, oh, I just like the taste. Right. Or like, I was like, I'm just into craft cocktails. That's just my thing. I like the ceremony and the smoke and the sprig of rosemary that comes out of that thimble that they serve it in for $20. Right.
--:-- Rachel Hart: But there is so much. I mean, you think about it, you know, you go to a fancy restaurant, and you're getting the wine pairing, and the sommeliers coming over, and it's, you're getting all this information about, you know, where it was grown and the type of grape. And yeah, I mean, we are like building up all of this kind of excitement and drama around it. And by the way, I'm not saying any of that is bad. But I think we just have to understand that, like, there's a reason that we attach all this kind of symbolism and desire and, and what it starts to represent. So that's all going on, you know, and then we have the other side of, okay, well, if I had too much to drink, I was obviously stupid. And I should know better. And why am I still making these same mistakes? I should have grown out of this by now. So there's this idea that all of our desire and urges should just be conquered by our intellect. And that doesn't make any sense.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I just love everything that you're saying, because I'm starting to realize that one of the reasons why I've never been drawn toward just being a person that doesn't have alcohol in their life. I know for some people it's incredibly important and empowering and it is the choice that is the right choice and the choice you need to make. But for me, there was something about it that felt like a part of the thing I'm already doing, which is making myself wrong about the urges. and I have always said to myself that I just wish I could be the kind of person that had no drama around it, that if I wanted a glass of wine, I had a glass of wine in the moment. I wouldn't have this whole shame cycle and conflict of whether or not I'm going to drink or not drink.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And when you said the thing about how, like, it's part of how we watch sports. It made me realize there are so many stories that your brain has learned about when and where and why you drink alcohol. And I think the single two biggest stories for me are number one, that alcohol for me is about belonging, not belonging to the alcohol, but my brain has hardwired the moment that I first had a drink when I was 14 years old and I was dating somebody who was two grades ahead of me. And in, at that point in time, I think you could, it was still grandfathered in that if you were 18, you could buy alcohol in Michigan. And so my boyfriend could buy alcohol and we would go out to Lake Michigan. And I remember when we were first dating, we pull into the state park and there are all the seniors out there. And my boyfriend was a junior and I was a freshman. And I was so scared because I was the only freshman that was out at that beach. The sun was setting. We get out of the car. He grabs my hand. We walk towards all his friends. And one of the gals turns me and says, hey, Mel, would you like a rum and Coke? And when she handed me that rum and Coke in a red solo cup, I immediately exhaled and was like, okay, I'm part of the group.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And so the trigger for me is any time the waiter comes around or I'm going over to a friend's house. This just happened last night. I was not planning on having anything to drink last night. And then I went over to my friend's house. She had two glasses out and a bottle of Sincere. And she poured two glasses and said, let's go walk around the garden. And I'm like, okay, you know, I'm going to join in with you. And it feels good to join in. And the Sincere tasted great. And I had a glass of wine. That was that. And then I came home. But of course, as I'm driving home, Rachel, I'm like, why'd you do that?
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yeah. Right. Because you're making it mean that you did something wrong.
--:-- Rachel Hart: As opposed to like, can we just love your brain for a second that it's like, hey, I want to belong. How normal of me, how human of me that I want to feel connected. Right. And at some point you're 14 and the brain's like, oh, this is how we belong. Like you have the red solo cup. I have the red solo cup. Look belonging. And so that's what I'm talking about when I'm saying, like, what was your brain learning right now? you not may not have made consciously that connection in that moment. But at some point, your brain did make that connection, it did make that association. And so then it's like, wait, if if this is a symbol of belonging, and I want to belong, because who doesn't? And it's like, okay, so I go see my friend and she pours two drinks. And I'm like, no, thank you. Are we disconnected? Now? Do I not belong?
--:-- Mel Robbins: The other moment that I really love to have a drink is after a really awesome busy day at work. It's a celebration and it is a lever because I work so hard. It's like, oh, this is signaling to my brain that I can turn off the working brain and I can shift down into, oh, it's time to relax and not think about work mode.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Well, it becomes a boundary, right? And so I talk about a boundary.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, whoa, wait a minute. So wait, wait. So a drink becomes a boundary? That is genius I off the clock right This is my boundary I have poured the drink I am off the clock Oh my God you right
--:-- Rachel Hart: And so then it's like, okay, so now I'm going to try to say no. I didn't understand that it was a boundary. So now my brain's like, okay, so we're still on the clock and I have to keep thinking, but I've been thinking all day long and I don't want to think about work anymore. This is my permission not to think.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I freaking love you. I feel like you are literally showing me a whole new world because I have made it so much about the alcohol that I'm I'm conflicted on the surface. And what you're trying to get us to see is hold on a sec. Drop deeper into what the where and when means and why you have the urge. Like, like, it's almost as if you're saying, let's just remove alcohol from the conversation for a minute. And let's talk about this urge that you have and why there's such a conflict. Holy shit.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yeah. You've just kind of unconsciously practiced saying yes for a number of different reasons. And it will often kind of just be under this umbrella of I just like to drink, right? I like the way it makes me feel. but you're on autopilot. And in order to get you off, we have to start to figure out how do I interrupt and how do I interrupt the habit can be as simple as literally naming it and normalizing it.
--:-- Rachel Hart: And so this is something that I teach people very early on. And it seems kind of too simple to work to really just, you know, maybe you're, um, maybe you're like sitting on the couch, watching TV, watching a show and you see someone drinking. And then all of a sudden, it's like, that would be good. Or maybe you find yourself getting up out of your couch, headed to the kitchen, and you're like, what am I even doing? And just all of a sudden, oh, I'm going to pour a drink. Or you're driving home and you have that kind of like, oh, I could stop at the wine shop and pick up a bottle of wine. To just name what's happening and then normalize what's happening is so powerful.
--:-- Rachel Hart: And what I mean by that is simply like, oh, this is an urge. I'm having an urge, of course. Like, of course, my brain is expecting a reward right now because it's used to, my day is done, let's have a glass of wine. Or it expects that when we cook dinner, we have a glass of wine. So naming it, so naming what's happening and then also normalizing it. So not making it a problem, not making it mean that something is wrong with you. It like just that alone sometimes is enough to interrupt the habit. It's enough to kind of take you off autopilot because all of a sudden you're in the place of being the watcher. So you're watching what's happening inside of your brain. You're naming it. So you're in that place of authority.
--:-- Rachel Hart: And you're also, I think, turning down the anxiety level because when people want to change their relationship with alcohol, they can start to have a lot of anxiety about the intensity of their urges or about how many excuses they have. I have a lot of people who will say, oh, my brain is so tricky, but we'll come up with all these excuses and just be like, no, no, like that's what the lower brain does.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And I should say like one of the thoughts for me for the longest time is just, I deserve it. Right. I deserve it. I deserve it. I literally was just like, I fucking work hard. I have no vices other than swearing and having a cocktail. seriously like am i is it really coming to this mel really like come on woman you do a lot of good in the world you're a kind person occasionally eat a danish i mean you might hit the weed every once in a while but you know that's organic so you want a gin and tonic or tequila on the rocks give yourself a fucking break like literally i deserve it what's the it and i deserve it the it I guess is it's turning my brain off. It's a reward. It's the boundary. Permission to stop thinking about work?
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yes. Yeah. I mean, there's so much awareness and insight that is available if you're able to approach your urges as like a source of inner intelligence. Like it's trying to communicate something to you, something that you're desiring, something that you need, something that you want that maybe has nothing to do with alcohol. We get so caught in this story as opposed to maybe it's trying to tell me something about a deeper desire. Maybe it's trying to communicate, hey, what do I actually need? Maybe I need a boundary. Maybe I need to give myself permission. Maybe I need more belonging. Maybe I need more pleasure. But we can't get that information if the urge is always this thing that we hate and we wish would go away. And why do I have so many? And, you know, why is it so hard for me?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Rachel, what you're talking about right now is the crux of this whole topic, because it's not about alcohol at all. At least that's what I'm getting from you. The alcohol is just what we are doing in response to the urge. And what you're saying is the urge is what you need to start to understand. In my case, that means the urge to belong. or the urge to set up a boundary and turn my work brain off. It's not really about the taste of a gin and tonic. It's that the taste of the gin and tonic has gotten fused with that urge. Wow. Okay, we got a lot to impact.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So let's hit pause, hear a word from our amazing sponsors. And when we return, we're going to dig deep into urges and how to get control of them. We'll be right back.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Welcome back, I'm Mel Robbins and I am so glad you're here. You got your arm around me on this walk we're taking together and we've got Rachel Hart here who works with clients around the world who want to change their relationship with alcohol whether that means going completely sober or it means just taking control and what Rachel's been teaching us is that this really isn't about the alcohol. It's about taking control of urges, urges to drink, urges to spend money, to stay in bed when you said you would exercise, to reach for your phone when you feel bored, to play video games for hours on end. And learning how to control your urges and your responses to them, that's the secret to everything.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yeah. So I want to start with the word control, because I think a lot of times people come to this work and they think, oh yeah, controlling my urges would be, I can make them go away.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, you can't.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Well, unless you can get rid of your lower brain, we're not going to be able to make the urge go away.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Can you tell us about that?
--:-- Rachel Hart: At a very basic level, we have a lower brain that is concerned with the immediate moment. It does not care about tomorrow. It does not care about the future. It cares about right now. Let me find pleasure. Let me find a reward. And the brain was designed that way. And that's normal. That's not a problem. What we have to do is figure out how do I get into that place of, yep, I see that you want it, right? I see that you that we have this desire. How do I feel more comfortable with it? So really like naming and normalizing is a huge thing for so many people. Like, of course, I have this desire. Like just that can be so powerful for people. So the higher brain is the one that you're using to tolerate the urge.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yeah. But notice how you're a little disappointed when I said that.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yes, very.
--:-- Mel Robbins: We're not going to be able to make the urge go away. Why are you disappointed?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Because it would be nice if I didn't like have any urge because then there would be no conflict because I wouldn't be thinking about it.
--:-- Rachel Hart: I think what we forget is that like urges are part of the human experience for everything, right? It's not just like the urge to drink, right? Like we have the urge to eat maybe more than we want to. We have the urge to stay in bed when actually we told ourselves that we were going to wake up and exercise in the morning.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Rachel, how do you change your relationship with those urges? I mean, do you recommend to the people that work with you that you just go cold turkey and you stop drinking kind of like a lot of us do for dry January?
--:-- Rachel Hart: Sorry. That's a question that I get a lot from people in terms of, so should I just stop? What's the right answer here? And I always really want to have people back up and sometimes actually take forever off the table. Because culturally, we have this idea that if you have a problem, the solution is to stop drinking for the rest of your life. And that is so overwhelming for a lot of people. And so sometimes I just say, listen, like, what if we stop making a decision for what you're going to do, you know, starting now until you're 80? What if we just say, like, what do I want to do today, this week, this month?
--:-- Rachel Hart: I mean, that's why I really think it is very powerful to experiment with periods of taking a break from drinking. That was something that was really powerful for me. And I think the truth is, I don't know. I don't know what the right answer. And I also think it's okay if your answer changes over time. So I think that's the other thing is we don't really examine alcohol or drinking as a relationship that can change over time.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I guess it can change over time. I know my relationship with alcohol has changed over time, but it strikes me that your approach is so counterintuitive because I've always thought that the answer for me was, Mel, you just got to stop drinking, period, altogether, forever. That's it. We're done here.
--:-- Rachel Hart: When I work with people and taking a break is one of the things that I have people do as an experiment.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You mean like the same way we go 30 days and not drink during dry January?
--:-- Rachel Hart: So a lot of people are familiar with like dry January or sober October, right? These ideas that we can spend a month removing alcohol from our lives and practicing saying no. The piece where I kind of struggle with that is we don't really give people any tools on how to do it other than just don't drink and maybe avoid temptation or don't put yourself in compromising situations. And taking a break is part of one of the things that I have people do as an experiment. But it's all about using a set period of time to practice skills, right?
--:-- Mel Robbins: I'm not following how your approach is different than say the times that I've taken a break from drinking and participated in dry January?
--:-- Rachel Hart: I have people take a 30 day break from drinking. And I believe it's very different than kind of like a dry January or sober October, because what I'm always telling people is the 30 days, I want you to focus on using the tools. Yes, we are using the tools to say no, but I want you to focus on like all the techniques to manage my urges, all the techniques to talk back to my excuses. You know, dry January, the point is making it 30 days. And I'm like, listen, we're doing these 30 days. It doesn't matter if you drink on day number two, that's good data, right? That means something didn't work. Let's look at what didn't work. I want you to focus on using the tools. I'm going to be using these tools and I'm going to be discovering some work better than others.
--:-- Rachel Hart: I will tell you, that's a huge mindset shift for people. A lot of people, you know, they say I'm all or nothing when it comes to drinking. I actually think they're all or nothing about commitment, right? I either was committed and I did it right and gold star, or I broke my commitment. And now it's like, okay, why bother? right? I made a mistake. So now I get to have as much as I want. Learning how to change means developing a different relationship with commitment.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Like, okay, yesterday, wait, say that again.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Learning how to change means developing a different relationship with commitment. You can't have an all or nothing relationship with commitment. It can't be, I was good. I was committed and I followed through and I was good, or I broke my commitment. I was bad. That mindset, you're screwed.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So what do you do with that person who says, okay, we're going to do the 30 days of not drinking and I'm going to try the tools. And you get really, really horrible news. The last time I wasn't drinking, I got news that a friend of ours died. And I was like, fuck this shit. I'm having a cocktail. So if I were doing the 30 days with you, what is the data like what can I learn from that day where I didn't keep my commitment to myself
--:-- Rachel Hart: yeah look back what was happening in the moment right like when you were saying fuck this shit what was going on what were you saying fuck this shit too
--:-- Mel Robbins: um life being hard commitment being hard if I go a little bit deeper, it was being really pissed off and really sad that my friend had died and wanting to just like numb it out.
--:-- Mel Robbins: All I wanted to do was fucking have a drink and lay down on the couch and cry about my friend.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yeah. I mean, so all of a sudden we get to see it like through the lens of like, oh, it was sadness. It was grief. It was the belief that like this emotion is too big. It's too much. I can't handle it. I don't want to be with it. I shouldn't have to be with it, which also so normal.
--:-- Rachel Hart: And so it's like, yeah, of course your brain went to the thing that it's like, I know how we get out. Like I know the shortcut. Here's the shortcut to not have to feel our emotions. We have to drink. That's the lower brain, right?
--:-- Rachel Hart: That's the lower brain going, I recognize this pattern. Right. And so all of a sudden, it's like, oh, okay, what this wasn't me breaking my commitment and being bad. This was me in the moment of having all of this pain and sadness bubble up not feeling like I had an alternative for how to manage it or handle it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: How does recognizing that help you have a stronger muscle when it comes to commitment? You're either good or you're bad. You either have integrity or you don't. You either stick to your promises or you're a fuck up and you never will. Like, you know, like that kind of thinking. And And if I take on a 30 day challenge and I fuck it up on day 12 then I fucked up the whole thing
--:-- Mel Robbins: But remember what did I say the goal of the challenge was
--:-- Rachel Hart: It's not to not drink for 30 days.
--:-- Mel Robbins: No, I know. It's like, it's not drinking, right? We said not drinking. It's not drinking. The goal was to use the tools.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Use the tools.
--:-- Mel Robbins: But I didn't lose the tools. So I actually didn't do the challenge. See how quick I am to like go bad, Mel. Okay. So now we don't use, so like this happens on day two. So day three, we can't go back to using the tools.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yeah, we can.
--:-- Rachel Hart: And we just make progress so much faster, right? When we're not, it's kind of like, oh, well I tried and that didn't work. Now it was bad. Now I'm going to go into shame spiral and I'm either just going to like stop trying, right? Because it's like, see, nothing works. I was going to like give up. I would either go into the like, okay, nothing works. Let's just like F it. I just have permission to like drink and eat and like do all the things that I want to do. Or I would go into the place of like, okay, now we're going to make like the super crazy restrictive rule because I was so bad. But like deep down, I know I can't follow it at all.
--:-- Mel Robbins: People do that on diets nonstop.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I see such a direct parallel with eating. Yeah. I'm starting to see that if you take on a 30-day challenge like this to use the tools and to use the tools to not drink for 30 days as a way to learn and develop the muscle of commitment and understanding yourself better. If you screw up on day two or 12 or 28, and then you bash yourself for not having a perfect streak, the likelihood is I would then just bail on the challenge altogether.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Except what if it wasn't a screw up? Like, what if you didn't make a mistake? I mean, like, what if the decision to say yes to the drink wasn't a mistake?
--:-- Mel Robbins: It wasn't a screw up. Well, how could it not be if I am making a commitment? Because maybe it's trying to give you insight into something that you are missing, like a skill that you don't have, or a response that you don't have to an excuse, or something that you're not aware of. Maybe you don't have the awareness. So I'm using it as a boundary. Rachel, you just keep dropping the knowledge, and I just keep having epiphany after epiphany. And I know that it's one everybody's going to relate to. So I'm going to share this insight that I just had right after we return from a short break. Stay with us.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your friend Mel, and you and I are here with Rachel Hart. And I don't know about you, but I am having a light bulb moment after a light bulb moment. And just before the break, I had a huge insight. That is another reason why I have so much conflict about alcohol. And the insight is: I hate being told what to do.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Me too. Even by myself. Even if I said I want to do this thing, I'm not going to do that thing that I said that I would do. I'll show you. Is that a normal thing that you hear with people?
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yes, this is a huge thing. I often talk to people when they're really struggling. It's like, okay, so what is the language that you're using to say no to the drink? They're like, "Well, I'm just saying that I can't have a drink." Okay. When you tell yourself you can't have a drink, how does that make you feel?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Pissed off.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yes. Yeah. Because here's the thing: it's not even true that you can't have a drink.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Explain that. You're like, "But we said we can't." Well, I mean, you're an adult woman. Of course you can drink. You're choosing to say no. There's such a big difference between when I tell myself I can't have something versus, "Okay, I'm choosing not to, and here's why."
--:-- The more I listen to you, the more it's really sinking in. I'm so fixated on the gin and tonic, but this isn't about alcohol. Because the urge to numb or escape or join in or relax or turn off your work mind or just find pleasure—that's not going to go anywhere. You're always going to have those feelings.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Most people come to me and they just say, "How do I get rid of it? I don't want to have this desire. I don't want to have the urge. I wish it wasn't there." And I think what we forget is that urges are part of the human experience for everything. It's not just the urge to drink. We have the urge to eat maybe more than we want to. We have the urge to stay in bed. So instead of having this idea, "Spend 30 days and just fight against these excuses," it's like, what if we could learn how to talk back to them in a way that's really believable?
--:-- Rachel Hart: Of course the urge is here. Or even just naming that you're having an urge. When I introduced that to people, they were like, "What is this woman talking about? You just want me to say, 'Oh, I'm having an urge'?" And I think it's incredibly powerful and beneficial because all of a sudden we're activating our higher brain. All of a sudden we're not just on autopilot. We're narrating what's going on. "Oh, this is an urge. Of course I'm having an urge. It's five o'clock. My brain learned this is what we do. We get a reward at five o'clock. Of course it's here."
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, when I have that urge, my first reaction is, "There's something wrong with you, Mel. There's something wrong with having the urge to have a glass of wine tonight." But you're saying don't focus on the glass of wine. Just recognize, "Oh, there's that urge to have one."
--:-- Rachel Hart: If you're trying to say no, if you want to drink less, all of a sudden it's like, "Oh God, the urge is here." And now my anxiety has just kicked on too, because I wish it wasn't there and I wish it would go away. And I think that it's a sign that something is wrong with me or my brain is broken. So can we just name it? Can we normalize it? Like, yeah, of course, when I watch baseball, I'm having the urge for a beer because at some point my brain learned, this is what you do when you watch baseball.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What's so great about this is that it's still empowering you to understand the psychological drivers so you understand and know yourself better. And that supports the work you're going to do if you are sober. Or if you go through all of this and where it leads you is to just a totally different relationship with alcohol that works for you. You still have to do the deeper work to understand the psychological data that is driving you to try to answer the urge with a drink. That's really amazing.
--:-- Rachel Hart: We don't just have urges when it comes to a drink. We have urges around food. We have urges around spending money. We have urges to procrastinate. We're always going to have competing desires. We always have this part of us that has the dream and the goal—"This is what I want to do, this is how I want to spend my time"—and we have the part of us that's scrolling through TikTok, looking for that easy way to distract ourselves or feel better or stay in our comfort zone. And that's always going on.
--:-- I personally think that learning this work around my urges to drink is what took my life to the next level because it was like, "Oh, okay, now I can apply the skill to anything that I'm doing." It's not unique to just saying no to a drink. It's something that I can apply across the board. It's an essential life skill.
--:-- Rachel Hart: And we don't teach people this. What's so frustrating for me is we're constantly giving people messages: "Just say no. Drink responsibly. Enjoy in moderation. Know when to say when." We're getting all these messages about what we should be doing, and nobody gives us the how. Nobody explains how we're supposed to do it. So I think what happens is people start to internalize, "This should just be something I can naturally do. I should instinctually know how to say no, be responsible, know when to say when. And if I can't figure it out, something must be wrong with me." As opposed to, no, people gave you a bunch of messages with no tools, no techniques, no understanding about the brain. That really infuriates me.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I can tell. So let's just take, for example, the second I'm done talking to you, I'm going to leave my podcast studio. I'm going to look out at a beautiful sunset and I'm going to have an urge to make a margarita.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So when you say "name the urge," does it—just saying that—do I just do that?
--:-- Rachel Hart: No, I'm like when it's happening. Oh, and I love that it's happening right now because now I'm talking about it. But I love the sunset piece. The number of people that I have coached on "How am I supposed to sit on my porch anymore and enjoy a sunset?" Sunsets were enjoyable before you started drinking. We just—the brain started to associate, "Oh, I get a reward when I watch a sunset." So now when you take the reward away, it feels like something's missing from the sunset. Nothing's missing from the sunset.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You're right.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Except for the drink.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I'm making a joke out of this, but I'm not really this cavalier about it. So when I leave here and I have the urge, I just, as I'm walking downstairs, I say, "Oh, I'm having that urge to make a drink."
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yeah. So you can say it to yourself. You can say it out loud. Both work. The idea is really just acknowledging what's going on. Like, "Oh, this is an urge. I'm having an urge right now. This is desire. Oh, how normal. Of course it's here." This isn't a problem. This is what my brain learned. I think that's a very powerful thing to start to be able to narrate what your brain is doing, because all of a sudden you're not at the effect of your brain. Part of you is watching it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: That makes sense. But how do you counsel your clients about the fact that drinking is bad for your health? I mean, medically speaking, the newest recommendations that I just saw published in academic journals was absolutely no more than two drinks a week if you're going to drink. And it is poison. I mean, we can agree on that. And yet I'm one of those people that I know it's poison and I still do it, which of course makes me feel even more shitty about myself.
--:-- Rachel Hart: I'm not denying that it can have negative consequences. But what I see happen to people—and I did this with myself as well—you start going down that rabbit hole of all the ways that it's harming you and all the poisonous, toxic effects that it's having on your body. And you're still struggling to say no, or you're still drinking more than you want. And now you're waking up the next day and you're doubly stupid because now you really should know better. So not only was it like, "Oh God, why did I have that fourth glass?" but "I know all the harm that it's doing. I know how bad it is for me." There's already so much shame around drinking. People are so hard on themselves. It just becomes another layer of "See, something really is wrong with me because now I know how bad it is. I know it's poisoning me." As opposed to, listen, alcohol is just a fact of being alive on this planet.
--:-- Mel Robbins: But it's true, Rachel. So why shouldn't we focus on how harmful it is for our health?
--:-- Rachel Hart: I think that takes you away from this conversation that I think is more powerful. What does it represent? What is my desire really about? Why is it hard for me to say no? How do I feel when I'm the odd man out? What are those emotions that come up for me? That is so much more powerful to get curious about rather than all the bad things that it's doing.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, I agree with you. And when I gave that example of it's dinner time, the sun is setting, I'm going to make a cocktail—the truth is the desire is to stop working. The desire is to exhale and stop thinking for a minute. The desire is to reward myself for a job well done. And in naming that, it also takes my focus off the drink and it helps me get present to what I actually want.
--:-- You know, what's crazy is that if I start shaming myself by saying, "Mel, it's poison in a wine glass," you know what happens? It just makes me want the poison in the wine glass even more. And then it makes me feel even worse. And now my internal conflict is all about how bad it is, when what you're saying is, if you go that route of shaming yourself, you miss out on the way more powerful insight and breakthrough that you can have, which is noticing without judgment, "Oh, I have the urge to drink right now. What is that about? The workday is over. Oh, I want to turn off my brain. That makes sense. So what do I need to do right now to take care of myself?"
--:-- What immediately came to mind is I need a hug.
--:-- Mel Robbins: But isn't that harder to ask for sometimes than a drink?
--:-- Rachel Hart: Well, you can't order one from a waiter.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It's true. And I can make myself a drink. So I don't have to ask for anything.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Right.
--:-- Mel Robbins: If I go to the 14-year-old me, that red solo cup represented a hug and being welcomed into the group. So I can see what you're saying: to name when you feel that urge that is deeper than the food or the drink or the pair of jeans you're about to buy. And so, of course, you would want the thing. And of course, not giving yourself the jeans or the ice cream sundae or the Mai Tai feels like you punishing yourself.
--:-- Rachel Hart: I think a big thing is just watching it pass. That's a huge thing that a lot of people struggle with. It's like, "Listen, if I don't say yes, it's going to be nagging me all night long."
--:-- Mel Robbins: Can I confess something to you?
--:-- Rachel Hart: Of course.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Is it normal for someone to be worried that you're about to tell me not to have a drink tonight? That you're about to tell me—yes, that you're about to coach me through this process of noticing the urge, letting it rise and fall. And then at the end of this, I'm now going to have more conflict about the urge. And then you want to know how fucked up I am? Then I'm going to feel like this is now all evidence that I have an even bigger problem. That's how much of a shame cycle I'm in around this.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yes, this is very normal. I'm not going to tell you anything to do. I think that's actually a huge piece of my approach. I don't know what's best for you. I'm not going to tell you what to do because then you're just going to be looking to me or looking for someone outside of you to tell you what's right. I think you have wisdom and information inside of you. And that's not like a wink-wink, "You know you shouldn't drink." I really do think that we have this ability to know what feels good for us and what feels like too much. But we can't access that if it's constantly in this place of, "Oh God, I shouldn't even be wanting this. I shouldn't even have this desire."
--:-- Mel Robbins: I can totally see how that's true. At least it is for me. I didn't think "more is better" just with a drink. I thought it was better with food. I thought it was better with stuff. I thought it was better with success. I thought it was better with money. I thought it was better with praise. That was just kind of the overarching principle of how I was operating. And it wasn't just showing up for me in one place. And I think that created a lot of freedom for me because I walked around for a long time being like, "I don't know, I've got eight different problems." Or maybe I have one thing that I'm working on, which is how to understand, identify how I'm feeling and what I need, and how to be okay with an unmet desire and how to fulfill it elsewhere.
--:-- You're exactly right. How did you figure this out? Like, was there a particular moment? Did you have a massive bender and then you're like, "I can't drink again," and then you reverse engineered this? Did you go to school? How did you figure this out?
--:-- Rachel Hart: I spent my twenties going back and forth between I'm drinking, I'm not drinking, I'm drinking, I'm not drinking. But the not drinking was always, "You were bad. You should be ashamed of yourself. Now it's time to punish yourself. We're just going to focus on saying no." So I would say no and say no and feel like something was wrong with me. And I was missing out. And I was very healthy, but wasn't enjoying myself as much. And then eventually I would give in and go pick up right back where I left off.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I'm sure that's how everyone feels about drinking and being in this back and forth. I'm on, I'm off, I'm drinking, I'm not drinking, I'm bad, I'm good. I mean, that's exactly where I am right now, which is why I want to talk to you and learn more about the process that you use with people.
--:-- Rachel Hart: I was in this cycle for so long. And I had some awareness that it was bigger than the drink. I felt like I wasn't able to access a part of myself without the drink. I remember believing that the fun Rachel, the real Rachel, she comes out with a drink. And again, there was a part of me that was like, "I don't think I always needed that."
--:-- Mel Robbins: It's so relatable. I feel like the relaxed, I'm-off-the-clock Mel comes out with a drink. The Mel that's not racing through her day, with a million things I need to do, tons of people I need to call, people that are relying on me. I pour that drink and I'm on vacation. I'm off the clock. It's the Mel that can sit down, put her feet up, stop thinking, and just take a breath and look at the sunset for a minute.
--:-- Rachel Hart: We have such a limited, narrow conversation about how we talk about this. It's kind of like, "Do I have a problem or don't I have a problem? Am I an alcoholic or am I a normal drinker?" We're very black and white. And I think there are a lot of people that feel like they're in this kind of in-between. And being in that in-between can feel incredibly frustrating. And it's like, "Nobody understands my situation or what's going on for me."
--:-- Mel Robbins: So all of this makes so much sense. And now I'm leaning in and going, "I want to learn more about the actual process." So when someone comes to you, Rachel, and they say, "Can you help me figure out what a normal relationship with alcohol would look like for me?"—or even broadening it out for those of you that aren't dealing with this with alcohol, anything that you're struggling with, a normal relationship with shopping, spending money, vaping, video games, porn, the urge to avoid things, overeating—Rachel, what is the process and how do you start it for yourself?
--:-- Rachel Hart: I think that one of the most important things to do is really first understand your mindset. And when I say mindset, I mean, when you think about, "What are my reasons for drinking? And what do I make it mean that I struggle to say no? What do I make it mean when I struggle to follow through on my commitment?" If you think about being told that you couldn't drink again, what about that would be upsetting for you? Because when you start asking these questions, it's going to reveal some of your thoughts about yourself, your ability to change, your urges, alcohol, all of that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: We were at a friend's house the other night and they opened up one of those super expensive French bottles of wine where you have to push the gray dust off of it. And I'm like, "Ooh, I'm not going to miss out on that." I hadn't had a drink that night, but the second they pulled that out, it's like FOMO. This is going to be expensive. I'm going to try this shit.
--:-- The big question that you asked at the end—what was the big question? Because it made my heart go, "Oh God."
--:-- Rachel Hart: Sorry, Mel, we're telling you, you can't drink for the rest of your life.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I would feel like I'd never have fun again. Like I'd miss out on all the celebrations. I was like, "I'm sorry, how are we supposed to watch March Madness? What am I ever going to have sex again? I don't understand." So am I ever going to go to a wedding? Should I just not go to weddings anymore? I'm not going to have sex. We're not going to enjoy sports. I guess I'm never going to dance in public. There were just so many things. I was like, "You got to be kidding me. You're literally talking about a miserable life. So no, thank you. I'll pass."
--:-- So what do you do if that's everything that you think?
--:-- Rachel Hart: When somebody fills all that out and they're like, "Okay, I'm never going to have sex. I'm not going to dance in public. I can't go to a sports game. My life will be no fun. All my friends who drink won't ever invite me out. I'm going to endure awkward moment after awkward moment where everybody else has a drink. And I'm like, 'Could I have a seltzer, please? Can I have the mocktail menu?' And I don't want to miss out on all the fun."
--:-- Mel Robbins: When you write out your excuses, that almost makes you feel like you would retreat toward binge drinking.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yeah, because it's like, "Oh, we have nothing to look forward to."
--:-- Rachel Hart: So one of the things I talk about is in all those situations that I listed, the worst thing that's going to happen is a feeling.
--:-- Mel Robbins: That's true.
--:-- Rachel Hart: But I don't think we understand it that way. Like, no, the worst thing that's going to happen is my life is going to be over. So you start to be like, okay, so what is that feeling that comes up when I get on the dance floor totally sober? What is that feeling that I'm having when I'm sitting in the stands watching baseball and everybody has a beer and I don't? What is that feeling? To start to identify—the real issue here is not the drink. The real issue is this feeling. "Oh God, if this comes up, then there's nothing to do."
--:-- Mel Robbins: What you're doing is you're just teaching people how to handle the feelings that come.
--:-- Rachel Hart: Yeah. I mean, it starts even just with identifying what the feeling is, because that's a huge piece that I work on with people. It's like, "I'm fine." I'm like, "Fine's not a feeling. How are we actually feeling?" So again, much like your urges, the ability to just name and notice and also not make it a problem.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Can you give us an example of what that sounds like? When you notice the urge and name it and not make it wrong?
--:-- Rachel Hart: Like, "I feel disappointed right now. How human of me. That's okay. We're supposed to feel disappointed sometimes. I can feel disappointed now because I'm not having the drink, or I can feel disappointed later because I didn't follow through on my commitment. But disappointment comes either way, so which one am I going to choose?"
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh my God. I just got something. I just got something really powerful. Holy shit. Do you want to know why I always lose the battle with myself? I start a Sunday night and I say, "You know, I'm not going to drink this week. I'll just wait until next weekend." Then Monday rolls around, six o'clock, I go downstairs, it's the sunset, I feel the desire to pour a gin and tonic because this is my boundary between work. I now understand what it is.
--:-- When I start to get in conflict with myself, Rachel—"Well, you said you weren't going to have a drink, but I feel like having a drink. What's wrong with having a drink? Well, you said you wouldn't." And that's a lack of—I have a drink to shut that conflict down. I'm not having a drink because I'm addicted to alcohol. I'm having a drink because I can't tolerate being in conflict with those two competing parts of me. Holy shit. That's why the drink habit always wins, because it shuts it down.
--:-- Rachel Hart: It's really even less about alcohol. It's just like, how am I making it okay and normalizing conflict? Internal conflict is okay.
--:-- Mel Robbins: That's pretty cool. I think I'm going to try the 30 days. Not today. But no, I want to do it. I'm really interested in this because I think I'm tired of the conflict within me. And I think there's peace that's accessible in this. And it is very freeing for somebody like me, and I think for a large number of you listening, to go, "Oh wait a minute. I don't have to choose between I drink all the time and I don't drink at all. I can end the internal conflict that I feel. And I can learn more about urges and desires and tolerating things and operate from my higher brain instead of letting my lower brain control me. And I can get myself out of this cycle of shame and management and conflict by simply trying what you're saying for 30 days of using these tools and naming the desire and tolerating the desire and watching your excuses and going a layer deeper."
--:-- Rachel Hart: I had a client once say, when I was working with her on her compelling reasons, I had her say, "I just want to be the captain of my own soul." And I was like, "Yeah."
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love "the captain of the soul" because I am somebody who is uber intentional and uber in control and have done so much work on myself. The one area where I have this friction between old and new is this conflict I feel around whether or not I'm going to have a cocktail. And you have been so profoundly helpful because I have realized I have a major issue with a boundary between work and relaxing and turning my brain off, and the desire to join in and belong with others. And they're all tied up with alcohol for some dumb reason. I've been focused on the alcohol, not the much richer and deeper opportunity of knowing myself. So thank you.
--:-- Rachel Hart: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Of course. And thank you for being here. Thank you so much. I could feel your arm around me as we were having this conversation. And now I want to put my arm around you. I want to make sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life for yourself, however you define that, whatever that means for you. And what that means for me is I am going to try this 30-day thing. So thank you for being here and helping me find the courage to take a look at this, because it's a hell of a lot easier to face your stuff and change together.
--:-- All right. I'll talk to you in a few days.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay. Squeeze into this. Oh, wow. Wow. This is like tool city, man. Tool city. Okay.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh shit. Jesus. My kids always call while we're having a podcast. Goodbye. Okay. Mama's got to talk about drink. That's a boundary, okay? I'm still on the clock. Excuse me.
--:-- [Sound of drinking]
--:-- Mel Robbins: Let me take a sip. So is that straight vodka in the thing that you just had a drink?
--:-- Rachel Hart: Oh, yeah, this is, yeah.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.
