--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram here with Dr. Tim Namy, director of the Canadian Institute for Substance Use Research.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Thanks for having me on the show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You guys hear the one about young people not drinking as much anymore? Gallup did some polling on it. I'm going to quote it. Young adults in the United States have become progressively less likely to use alcohol over the past two decades, with the percentages of 18 to 34-year-olds saying they ever drink, that they drank in the past week, and that they sometimes drink more than they should all lower today.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: That's right. And with 2023 almost over, we're hearing some of you are thinking about a dry January, but what about a dry February? What about a dry 2024? What about joining the Youngs and maybe choosing to go for that mocktail or that non-alcoholic beer? I hear those taste not quite as bad as they used to.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On Today Explained, we're going to revisit an episode we made earlier this year. It features some compelling research that might convince you to join all those Youngs who would just rather not drink. Stay tuned.
--:-- [Support for Today Explained comes from the FIFA World Cup]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from the FIFA World Cup. The FIFA World Cup 26 is coming to North America next summer. It is the ultimate celebration of sports and culture. You can get closer to the beautiful game with a hospitality package, closer to the action, the best seats, the best suites, closer to match day and that world-class food and that world-class entertainment, closer to the experience of a lifetime. Book a hospitality package at fifaworldcup.com slash hospitality.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today is gonna be explained to you. Sean Ramos from here with Dr. Tim Namy, director of the Canadian Institute for Substance Use Research. It's one of the groups behind the latest study on how alcohol affects our health, and we wanted to go straight to the source.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Alcohol is related to a number of different costs of death. You know, it's a small molecule. It can affect DNA. So alcohol, especially drinking over small amounts, is related to all the major forms of heart disease, like, you know, heart attacks, heart failure, irregular heartbeats, and high blood pressure.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's also related to, causally related to at least seven types of cancer, including colon cancer and breast cancer, and also a variety of stomach and intestinal problems and liver problems.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: And we can also talk about the risk of injuries or accidents, which start to increase. That's more based on your, you know, how much you drink on any one occasion as opposed to your average consumption.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And if you're like, cancer, really? I gave up smoking on account of cancer.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Just to give your listeners more of a sense of it, there are studies that have compared, for example, alcohol to tobacco, to cigarettes as a cancer cause. And it's estimated that one drink of alcohol is approximately the same cancer-causing potential as one to two cigarettes, depending on if you're a man or a woman.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Another way to think about it is that for breast cancer, which is a pretty common cancer among women, for each drink, each additional drink that a woman consumes per day on average, that that results in about somewhere between an 8% and a 10% increase of the risk of cancer over her baseline risk of cancer, right?
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: So not everyone's, you know. But if we say that, you know, depending on what number you look at, like 1 in 12 women will develop, or 1 in 12, 1 in 11, 1 in 10, depending on what age you use, will develop breast cancer. An additional drink per day is about a 10% increase in risk, so it's an absolute 1% increase in the risk of developing breast cancer.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: These are complicated messages to get across, but that's just to give you kind of a sense. All this might feel like a buzzkill compared to all those previous studies that said go ahead and have a glass or two of wine a day, but Dr. Namy says that isn't actually what those studies said.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Actually, the results of this study are actually very similar, which is even the previous studies that were thinking, oh, maybe a little bit of wine is maybe good for us. What was very clear is that even in those studies, above even a half a drink a day on average, the risk started to climb up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I think even there, the risks were underestimated. But if you view it in that light, what we're seeing in our study, which is based on thousands of studies over the past 20 years, it's kind of a consistent message that above very low levels of alcohol, the risk of an alcohol-caused death starts to increase.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Before, it was like up to six or seven drinks a week. And now we're saying it's probably more like that risk starts to climb up, you know, starting at three drinks a week and higher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But what my mom would say back to you. Yeah. Is that the queen had a gin every day, if not multiples, and she lived to be like 98 or whatever.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Yeah. No, no. Well, I think that's great. Like, so all of these restaurants are massive averages, right? We are developing sort of national guidelines.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For example, is the queen living longer because she has a glass of gin every night? Or is the queen living longer because she has the best doctors and she, you know, enjoys walks and has a healthy lifestyle and has no stress?
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Not saying, you know, I don't know. I've never been a queen myself, right? But I'm just, if the queen lives to be 99, do we think it's because she drinks a glass of gin or do you think it's because she's the queen?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I bet it's because she's the queen myself. But even if she weren't the queen or even if the queen wasn't in a very socially advantaged position, and we know that actually social advantage is probably the most important determinant of life expectancy and quality of life.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Even if that wasn't the case, I think we all know, you know, the aunt or the uncle who drank like a fish and smoked like a chimney and lived to be 100. And we also know, you know, unfortunately, other people who, like, were super healthy, did everything right, and, you know, passed away of some god-awful disease, you know, in their 40s, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, I think, again, these are a giant averaging effect And you know long live the queen and her gin But again I think making light of the situation but I think that sort of the issue We can all think of exceptions or drinking is sort of an upper it considered a luxury item because if you look throughout society actually people in middle and higher incomes are more likely to drink alcohol than people in low incomes
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: So, again, I think we have to kind of keep that in mind when we're thinking about who lives longer and why.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Does this study that you and your outfit published? my outfit. I like it. Does it purport to be the final word? Because I think part of the frustration here is people can't keep track of whether it's good or bad or what's okay, one drink, two drink, three drink, and now maybe zero drinks.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Again, not don't ever drink, but the least amount of risk is associated with zero drinks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, I feel like people just roll their eyes, but here we have one that feels to be, I don't know, different at least.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Well, let me ask you, because here at my outfit at the Canadian Institute for Substance Use Research, again, we were just one of 16 outfits across Canada that worked on this. As a scientist, I would say to you, absolutely, science is never definitive. Anyone who tells you that any study is definitive is probably not a great scientist, in my opinion.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But what I would say to this is that this represents the best current science. We're using, I think, the best methods. That is the way that the World Health Organization calculates alcohol attributable deaths.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: And again, the main message that's coming out of these guidelines is actually consistent with all the other research, which if you boil it down, at the end of the day, if you drink alcohol and you want to help your health, drinking less is better than drinking more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How low you need to go, there's some play in that, but I can absolutely tell you that what is the most consistent finding in the literature that's been there for decades is that, you know, when it comes to longevity, less alcohol is the way to go.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: We did a show a while back on the social benefits of drinking. It was called The Case for Drinking. Human civilization requires people to cooperate. And there's a line of thinking that, you know, alcohol may have helped us to do that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It sort of socially disinhibits us just enough to sort of cooperate. In a way, it may be similar to what religion did for early humans. I mean, essentially, just as early religions gave people something to rally around, alcohol may have played a pretty similar function.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Did your study take into account any of those factors, or is that sort of a different question for you guys?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: First of all, there are, and we acknowledge this in the report, there are many reasons why people choose to drink or not to drink. Our report is primarily focused on health.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: You know, for some people, drinking alcohol has some of those kind of social benefits. Again, typically at really relatively low levels.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We also have to remember that also alcohol is a leading preventable cause of intellectual disability in children. Alcohol causes blackout. People often don't remember what they did in a state of intoxication. The dangers of that are enormous.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: We see domestic violence, abuse, rape, neglect occur in the context of alcohol. So, like, if we want to get into the social aspects, good and bad, of alcohol, we should consider the full spectrum of them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And again, I think in terms of the social benefits, those are happening more at the lower aspects of consumption. We didn't try to quantify those benefits. But again, I think when you increase consumption, the number of harmful social consequences increases and the beneficial ones start to decrease.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: So when people are deciding, you know, how much they want to drink, they're going to be thinking about a bunch of different stuff. And we just want to have good, credible information on the health aspects and let people kind of put that into the mix.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Can I ask you about loneliness before we go? Sure. Because there's like a loneliness pandemic. You've surely heard of it. Loneliness is deadly in its own way. It seems to be spiking across the Western world.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: And I wonder if there's like a competing phenomena here that, you know, people are maybe drinking less and thus they're more lonely because they're socializing less and they're not leaving the house.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you think there is any relation between alcohol consumption and loneliness?
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Well, that's an interesting way of thinking about it. I guess I'll just sort of go off the top of my head. I think it depends on what kind of activities you do.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So for people whose social networks and a lot of their activities are very alcohol-centric, Well, then if they stop drinking, they may lose some of those friends or some of those activities may be more difficult.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: But I think one of the ideas behind Dry January is to see how we feel not doing that and actually to like maybe reach out to other people or to try other activities that are less dependent on alcohol because lo and behold, they might be pretty good and they might help with loneliness.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So actually, I think your question, which is a really good question, points to the fact that for many people, alcohol equates to being social or not being lonely.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: And I think that I understand that that's the reality for some people. But I also think that it's good for people to see all the other things that can open up to them when they drink less or not at all.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: other, you know, sort of other things that they can do and sort of kind of achieve a balance.
--:-- [Support for Today Explained comes from Chime]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Chime. Nobody likes fees and complicated banking, says Chime And Chime gets that says Chime Chime is a financial technology company that says they understand that every dollar counts So when you set up direct deposit through Chime they say you get access to fee features such as free overdraft coverage getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit so much more.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Chime says with qualifying direct deposits, you can be eligible for free overdraft up to $200 on debit card purchases and cash withdrawals. Plus, they say you don't need to worry about monthly fees or maintenance fees.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can work on your financial goals through chime today. You can open an account in two minutes at chime.com slash explained. That's chime.com slash explained.
--:-- [Support for Today Explained comes from LifeKit]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for the show today comes from LifeKit, the podcast from NPR. What's in your life kit? I'm asking. They didn't ask that. Every day you have to make choices that might shape the direction of your life, but you can't flip to the back of the book to find an answer key.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Instead, you can listen to the LifeKit podcast from NPR. LifeKit offers real stories about common issues like relationships, finances, parenting, and your career.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you're looking to move with more intention or just need thoughtful guidance on living better, LifeKit delivers strategies to help you make meaningful, sustainable change.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: From fitness routines to mental resilience, navigating personal goals to tackling burnout, each episode is full of relevant insights and clear takeaways about things we all could use a little help with.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: LifeKit wants to help you approach your own life with confidence and clarity and walk away with a game plan you can implement right away.
--:-- [Support for Today Explained comes from strawberry.me]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Let's be honest. Are you happy with your job? Like, really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown, or one we never wanted in the first place. But still, we stick it out.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we give reasons like, what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: And maybe the most common one, isn't everyone kind of miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's time to get unstuck. It's time for strawberry.me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be.
--:-- Dr. Tim Namy: Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, create a plan, build your confidence, and keeps you accountable along the way.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So don't leave your career to chance. Take action and own your future with a professional coach in your corner. Go to strawberry.me slash unstuck to claim a special offer. That's strawberry.me slash unstuck.
--:-- [Support for Today Explained comes from Abstaining from alcohol seems to be having a moment]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Abstaining from alcohol seems to be having a moment, which is great news for Ross Henfler. Yeah, that's right. Like a lot of young kids, I grew up just thinking that drinking was one of the things you did on the way to adulthood.
--:-- Ross Henfler: And especially as a young man, I felt a lot of pressure to drink and drink heavily at a fairly young age. And I never liked the taste. I didn't appreciate the peer pressure that came along with it, the sense of having to prove my masculinity by drinking a lot.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And fortunately, I was lucky enough, this is in the late 1980s, to encounter the punk rock scene. And I met some people that were straight edge.
--:-- Ross Henfler: So-called straight edgers don't even drink. They don't smoke. And they don't do drugs. Who had made a commitment not to use alcohol, drugs, and tobacco and made it cool not to use.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: All Straight Edge is. It's a way to live your life better. It's a way to live your life positive, and it's a brotherhood.
--:-- Ross Henfler: And I fell in love with not just the hardcore music, but with that lifestyle as well.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Straight Edge emerged in the punk rock and hardcore scenes of Washington, D.C. in the early 1980s. And it was really just a bunch of young people in that scene who loved the question-everything mentality of punk, the arts, the aggressive music.
--:-- Ross Henfler: But weren't so interested in kind of the heavy drugs and alcohol use that were really going on in the scene at that time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So there were a couple of bands, the Teen Idols and then more famously Minor Threat, who promoted kind of an alternative.
--:-- Ross Henfler: Minor Threat wrote this song called Straight Edge. and the idea being that one shouldn't be picked on or judged for the fact that they don't want to use, that there are other paths.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it was really a statement for individuals to live life in the way that they wanted to live life. But it must have struck a chord because even pre-Internet age, it caught on all across the U.S. and soon beyond.
--:-- Ross Henfler: And now, in 2023, is a worldwide movement with young people in many, many countries adopting the universal symbol, the X, on the hand or in a tattoo or on a shirt to proclaim their allegiance to that identity.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Grown-up Ross still doesn't drink, and now he's a professor and the chair of sociology at Grinnell College in Grinnell, Iowa.
--:-- Ross Henfler: I asked him why there's so much less of a stigma associated with abstaining from alcohol in 2023.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, I think in a lot of ways, attitudes have just shifted, and there's not one perfect explanation for that.
--:-- Ross Henfler: And I think it's important to note that there's declines in drinking, especially amongst young people, in many different countries, you know, across Western Europe, across North America, Australia, New Zealand.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is really something bigger than any one, you know, one country or one state or one city.
--:-- Ross Henfler: Speaking, you know, for the U.S. case in particular, there was a recent study in the Journal of the American Medical Association, the pediatrics version of that journal, that looked at young people from 2002 to 2018, the number of college students that choose not to drink that abstain completely rose from 20 in the early 2000s to just about 28 percent you know in 2018
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the same was true for non folks who are almost at 30 percent choosing not to drink So there is some good data out there that's just demonstrating that it's not as big of a priority for a lot of people.
--:-- Ross Henfler: Teen drug use in the United States is in decline. A government study finds that the overall use of alcohol, marijuana, prescription medications, and illicit substances dropped among American teens last year.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But why? What are these kids doing instead? Are they vaping? Are they spending all their time on TikTok? What is it?
--:-- Ross Henfler: Well, you know, I have to say that as much as previous generations want to sort of say, Kids these days have it so easy. That's just not the reality for young people today who, I think, in many ways experience a very uncertain future.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, all of the social problems that many of us think about on a daily basis, but they're just a little more risk-averse. They don't want to do anything that might jeopardize their future prospects.
--:-- Ross Henfler: They're not even sure if they work hard and go to university, if they'll be able to pay off their student loans or get a good job or just have a reasonable standard of living.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So there's just a lot more of kind of being careful, you know, planning for the future.
--:-- Ross Henfler: And then on top of that, I think that this decline in drinking in some ways overlaps with the rise of social media.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: According to Pew Research, 97% of U.S. teenagers go online every single day, and 46% say they're almost constantly online.
--:-- Ross Henfler: 54% of teens say it would be really hard to give up social media.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Some young people feel like they're under constant surveillance.
--:-- Ross Henfler: So anything that they do while intoxicated could be recorded by anyone. And they could be, you know, the next meme circulating at their high school or their, you know, their workplace or their university.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there's also just better ways to connect. So there are all kinds of groups, sober groups on Facebook, on Twitter.
--:-- Ross Henfler: And there are people making TikToks about their sobriety. After five years of trying and failing, here's how I finally got sober.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Whereas in the past, one might have felt really isolated in their sobriety. Now there are ways to reach out and connect with like-minded others.
--:-- Ross Henfler: Hey, my name is Dagan. I am fighting for sobriety.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Are we seeing residual benefits in society? Are there fewer alcohol-related deaths? Are there fewer instances of, you know, drunk driving? Do we yet see the sort of payoffs of fewer young people drinking beyond their health, presumably?
--:-- Ross Henfler: Right. Yeah, I'm not so sure we're seeing a lot of those payoffs quite yet.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I think it's a really powerful thing to note that the heavy drinking of the 1990s and into the early 2000s wasn't just a natural state of affairs.
--:-- Ross Henfler: It wasn't just something that was going to happen regardless. Like there were industries that were promoting this and profiting from connecting youth culture, especially to alcohol use.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hello. Hey, who? What's up? Nothing, V. Just watching the game, having a bud.
--:-- Ross Henfler: What's up with you? What's up? Yeah! You know, we find ourselves in, you know, kind of a culture where alcohol is almost inseparable from most social gatherings, no matter what your age.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when you say, let's grab a beer, it's never just about the beer. Come on, I'm buying you a beer. Okay.
--:-- Ross Henfler: And so I think the real impact here to keep our eyes on is will this cultural shift persist? You know, it's kind of remarkable to have people suggesting, you know, it's okay not to drink. It shouldn't be remarkable.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But in the face of all of the pressures and all of the moneyed interests that, you know, we're profiting in many ways from people suffering, it's pretty fascinating to watch unfold.
--:-- Ross Henfler: To bring this back to your straight edge experience in the late 80s and early 90s, how does it feel to be someone who doesn't drink in 2023 for you?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, I feel like I'm finally in better company.
--:-- Ross Henfler: So I haven't had alcohol for well over 30 years at this point.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That means I went through my later high school years, all of my college and graduate school years and beyond being sober and often being the only person who was sober in my social circles.
--:-- Ross Henfler: And so now to see people that have never heard of punk or straight edge, sometimes identifying as straight edge, even if they're not in the hardcore scene, it's kind of wild, actually.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's a little surprising. But for me, I just always wanted people to have a better sense of themselves and their choices.
--:-- Ross Henfler: And we think of peer pressure as something that middle schoolers have to deal with, not adults. We're supposed to grow out of that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the fact is, is our social surroundings create our opportunities and constraints.
--:-- Ross Henfler: And going against that grain can feel tough. So having gone against that grain for several decades, it feels good to see that that's beyond my little punk rock scene and is now more widely accepted.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ross Hentler, sociologist, Grinnell College.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our show today was made by Amanda Llewellyn and Miles Bryan with help from Matthew Collette, Laura Bullard, and Afim Shapiro.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks to Bill Schufelt at Athletic Brewing, too.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The podcast is taking a couple days off to close out 2023, but we'll be back in your feeds on January 2nd.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Happy New Year. Thanks for listening to Today Explained this year and next year and the one after that and the one after that and definitely the one after that and the one after that.
