The Science of Women’s Health: Ob/Gyn Reveals 10 Truths You Need to Know

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Do you ever feel completely overwhelmed by the conflicting medical and health advice on the internet? Well, today, you and I are busting medical myths and misinformation with a world-renowned double board certified medical doctor. That's right. The amazing Dr. Jen Gunter is in the house.

Mel Robbins: And look, if you're shy about these kinds of TMI things, don't you worry. Your friend Mel is going to go ask the embarrassing questions on both of our behalves. Should you sleep in underwear at night? Is wearing a thong bad for your vagina? How do you properly clean your lady parts anyway? What are the shocking period symptoms that nobody talks about? Don't lie to me. You've thought about these questions before, and I know you want the answers. I sure do. And that's exactly where we're going today on the Mel Robbins Podcast.

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Mel Robbins: Hey, it's Mel, and I am beyond excited that you decided to listen to this episode today because you and I are busting dozens of health myths, especially when it comes to women's health. And look, there's so much misinformation flying around when it comes to how you take care of your body and what's actually normal when it comes to what your body is doing.

Mel Robbins: Well, our guest today has been called the internet's favorite OBGYN. Dr. Jen Gunter is a double board certified fellowship trained medical doctor. She's also a fierce advocate for women's health and a three times international bestselling author. She is hilarious, upfront and trustworthy. And here's why I love her. She provides the science, myth-busting, no-nonsense facts so that you have the science-backed solutions, not fairy tales, because it's in the solutions that you'll be able to take control of your health. So let's dive in.

Mel Robbins: Dr. Gunter, thank you for jumping on a plane and coming all the way to Boston for the Mel Robbins podcast. We are thrilled that you are here.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, thank you so much for asking me, and I'm thrilled to be here.

Mel Robbins: So I'd like to start by having you speak directly to the person that is listening right now. And can you tell them what they may experience in their life and with their health if they listen to everything that you're about to share and they take the research back advice that you're about to give them?

Dr. Jen Gunter: I would say that if you take home one thing from what I'm talking about today is that the importance of facts, of evidence-based information, because that will help you advocate for yourself in the doctor's office. It'll help you figure out what you're seeing online is truth or trash, and it'll help you feel less alone with your own body if you actually know the facts about it.

Mel Robbins: Well, one of the reasons why I was so excited to talk to you, Dr. Gunter, is because you are the internet's favorite OBGYN that people turn to around the world to debunk all the myths that are out there about women's health. We're going to talk about menstruation and how to take care of your body. And before we do, though, I just want to know, how did you get into being a OBGYN? And why have you become the doctor of reason and the doctor of research online?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, I'm probably more motivated by anger than anything else. When I was in medical school, I was really bothered by the fact this was in the mid-1980s. I was really bothered by the fact that everybody who was teaching me about women's bodies were men. And so that bothered me. And I thought, well, I'm going to go into OBGYN. So that was the motivation for that.

Dr. Jen Gunter: And the myth busting also kind of came from that. I had a significant personal health problem that resulted in a lot of significant health issues for my kids. And I got sucked into a lot of disinformation and found myself in that weird spot between medicine and not knowing and was trying to navigate it. And I thought, you know, if it's really hard for me, what is it like for other people? And I was always this annoying person in grand rounds at the back, like correcting everybody. And I thought, you know, if it could affect me, then how does it affect everybody? And so I just decided that I was going to try to clean up the medical internet. And here I am.

Mel Robbins: Thank God. Why is real information about women's health so hard to find?

Dr. Jen Gunter: You know, I think that we do a bad job about teaching people about their bodies in school. So people start out without the information they need. They have limited times with doctors. They don't get listened to many of the times, some of it because the doctors aren't trained appropriately, some because they have a 12-minute visit. And then disinformation is sexy, right? It's a lot easier to tell people that you can solve their problem with some crazy restrictive diet or with some supplement or something else as opposed to talking about, you know, the things that are much more complex and harder to distill to sound bites. So I think it's this really sort of complex array of things that is altogether affecting women.

Mel Robbins: So you do a ton of debunking online. What is the current state of social media in terms of what it's talking about and what rises to the top when it comes to women's health? And how is that making so many of us feel like we're in the dark when it comes to our bodies.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, I mean, fear sells on social media. Fear sells in general with the media, but you see a clip and someone's telling you, if you don't take this hormone, this is gonna happen. If you don't take this supplement, this is gonna happen. And you watch it and this person, maybe they're a doctor or a researcher or they seem like they know what they're talking about. And so you become afraid and then you're much more likely to watch that. And then what happens is the algorithm feeds you that over and over and over again because the algorithms are so smart. I mean, it's why I get fed shark attack videos all the time because I'm scared of those. So once I see them, I watch them to the end. So, you know, the algorithm is not your friend.

Mel Robbins: When it comes to women's health, what is your approach to alternative medicine?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, I believe women deserve facts and evidence-based medicine. And alternative medicine is existing outside of that universe. And so I would say to anybody who promotes that, do not think that women deserve science. Do not think that women deserve studies. Do not think that they deserve the funding to know what's actually happening to their bodies. So, yeah, I think that if your therapies are good, you should prove it. We shouldn't be going based on what you say. We should be going on facts. Women deserve facts.

Mel Robbins: It's true. And I feel so bad for all the young girls that are out there probably getting all their information from influencers on social media.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, I mean, there's, you know, there's good influencers and there's ones that are not at all. And, you know, it's difficult to have a changing body as it is, whether you're going through puberty, whether you're going through, you know, the menopause transition. But then if you don't have the facts to have that foundation, it just makes it so much harder. And that's really why I do what I do, because I don't want people to be going, what the? You know, I want them to have the empowerment that comes with knowledge.

Mel Robbins: Well, it makes a lot of sense because if you also don't know and then you're experiencing this on your own and then you're too embarrassed to ask a question even when you do see a doctor, you're going to just completely start going, oh, there's something wrong with me. Oh, like my body's the bad one or the one that smells bad or I'm doing something wrong. And you might not even bring it up with your doctor because you think it's normal for you to be like that.

Mel Robbins: So, Dr. Gunter, let's talk about hair growth and taking care of your hair that is growing around your, I guess, what would I even say? Pubic hair. Your pubic hair. Thank you. I'm trying to be fancy here. So let's talk about pubic hair. Everybody wants to talk about pubic hair. It's so fascinating.

Mel Robbins: Well, I'll tell you why. As a 56-year-old woman, I'm going to share something that I don't think I've ever shared publicly. Okay. When I got engaged at the age, I guess I must have been 26, 27, I had this bachelorette party and my friends bought me this ridiculous thing to dress up in that just was this weird kind of series of ribbons that was tied together like a teddy. And when I stepped out, everybody was like, because I didn't do anything to my pubic hair. I mean, this would have been back in the early 90s, like trimming, waxing, Brazilian wax. Like this was not a thing. And so I had my first ever pubic hair grooming at my bachelorette party where my girlfriends were literally trimming around this thing that they had put me on. And it was the first time that I'd ever even known that this was a thing.

Mel Robbins: Now, fast forward and I'm 56 and I look at how obsessed even teenagers are about their pubic hair. First of all, it's kind of sad. And secondly, I just think that there's probably a lot of misinformation about what you should do down there, what you shouldn't do down there, why to be careful around it. And so I'm just going to turn the mic over to you.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah. Well, and it's not surprising that people have those questions because I swear every second month, every woman's magazine talks about pubic hair. Like it's the most important thing in a woman's life. So yeah, I mean, we have pubic hair for a reason. Most likely it's to protect the skin, to help maintain the pH, help to trap moisture in. So it's probably less important now as it was, say, 10,000 years ago when we didn't have the kind of coverings and ability to protect ourselves from the elements that we have now. It's a personal choice like any hair removal. And obviously, with society, it has sort of waxed and waned, pardon the pun, with importance.

Dr. Jen Gunter: A lot of it, I think our current sort of obsession with it is related to the fact that showing pubic hair used to be a sign of nudity. That was the sign of public nudity. So when people started removing more and more, like in clubs and things like that, they could start to show more and more and more. So that was kind of part of the definition of public nudity. So I think it's got that sort of titillation associated with it. But, you know, no one gets worked up if they see a dude's pubes hanging out from his swimsuit, right?

Mel Robbins: That's true. That's okay. It's okay that it sort of melds into the hair on his thigh. No one's freaking out going, oh, my God.

Dr. Jen Gunter: So, you know, I think it's just a personal thing. If people do all kinds of body modifications, people pierce their ears, they pierce their nose, they get tattoos, they, you know, they remove pubic hair. Some of these things are more reversible than others. And I just think if you like it, that's fine. Just keep in mind that if you start developing irritation, if you start developing problems, then that could be part of it. And sometimes we see issues when people have been removing pubic hair chronically, their skin starts to get drier. If that doesn't bother you and you're just like, well, I'm just going to use a moisturizer. That's okay. You know, you're adults and you make a choice.

Dr. Jen Gunter: But there really isn't a medical reason that we would recommend it apart from there is a condition called hydradonitis superativa, which is a chronic inflammatory condition of a sweat glands on the vulva. It also can affect in your armpits and other places you have these specialized sweat glands. And for people with that condition, removing pubic hair with laser can sometimes be helpful. But people have to remember, when you remove pubic hair, it's traumatizing to the skin. You're raking a razor over the skin. So that's causing, you know, irritation or inflammation. It can introduce infection. We see lots of infections related to, you know, pubic hair removal. So people make choices all the time.

Mel Robbins: Is it normal to feel embarrassed by the fact that you didn't know any of this?

Dr. Jen Gunter: The reason why people don't know is nobody talks about it. So if nobody explains to you the names of your body parts when you're first using them, if nobody talks about it in school, if every message you've seen has been damaging or, you know, that you're dirty and disgusting, you walk through all the stores and you see all of that, you watch a movie and there's no foreplay and no pubic hair, everything that you've seen, you see women's magazines that tell you the most important things, your pubic hair, you know, and you see all this, of course, it would be normal to say, well, how did I not know this? You didn't know this because the system was stacked against you. Because, you know, we haven't even been able to say vagina in print until when was it? Like maybe 15 years ago, 20 years ago. I might be wrong. And maybe this is one of these truthy sounding things, but I heard it wasn't until the vagina monologues that the New York Times could put vagina in print. So if saying the word vagina has been basically forbidden in public until what, like 1990-ish, how could people know?

Mel Robbins: So what are we getting wrong about our vaginas?

Dr. Jen Gunter: That's a loaded question. I would say that there is a large industry out there trying to make you think that your vagina is a broken heap of, you know, something that is the worst possible thing you could imagine. If you walk into any grocery store or drugstore, you see shelves and shelves and shelves of products designed for the vagina and the vulva. And, you know, none of them are necessary really except menstrual products. But you see all these things. And of course, even if you don't have any symptoms at all, how could you not be affected by all of that. So I think the big thing that we're getting wrong is that the vulva and vagina need some kind of extra special care.

Mel Robbins: They don't?

Dr. Jen Gunter: No. You know, the vagina is a self-cleaning oven. Takes care of itself. You don't need to do anything there. And the vulva is just skin. I mean, people have been taking care of their vulvas for tens of thousands of years without special wipes and washes, and nobody died out because of that. So I think it's really important for people to remember that there's really nothing special that's needed. You can use a cleanser down there if you want to on your vulva on the outside where your clothes touch the skin, not inside, just like you use a cleanser elsewhere on your body and you know that you're good to go.

Mel Robbins: So just so I get the terminology right, and I'm embarrassed that I'm about to clarify this as a 56-year-old woman, but I'm going to ask anyway. So the vulva is the stuff on the outside, it's like the curtains and the vagina is the inside?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, so the vagina is inside where you would reach inside to pull a tampon, that type of thing. The vulva is where your clothes touch the skin and the vestibule is where the two meet.

Mel Robbins: Okay, wait. So now you just added a third thing. So the vulva is the outside. So as you're sitting here listening to Dr. Gunter, if you're sitting, it's what's pressing against your pants or your underwear.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Exactly. Okay. Exactly. And then when you open that up, you call that the vestibule?

Mel Robbins: Yeah.

Dr. Jen Gunter: So think about a doorway, right? So if you're outside on the street, you're looking at the building face, that's the vulva. If you step in the doorway, that is the vestibule. And if you open the door and go in, that's the vagina.

Mel Robbins: So does your vulva and vagina have a pH?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Sure. Everything. Your skin has a pH. So your skin has a pH. Your mouth has a pH. Every part of your body that has water has a pH. And so the vagina has a pH that's between about 3.5 and 4.5. It's acidic. And that exists as part of controlling the vaginal ecosystem. That is what allows the good bacteria to grow that stops the bad bacteria from growing. It's what keeps the whole thing as it needs to be. The skin pH is a little bit higher. And so what you don't want to do is introduce products into the vagina, even water, because that can actually damage that ecosystem. And that actually can cause the pH to rise. So an elevated pH in the vagina is a sign that there's something wrong. It's not a cause, it's the result. And so you can't change it with any kind of product, it's an inside job.

Mel Robbins: So is there a pill or a supplement or some sort of product that we need in order to clean or balance the pH of our lady parts?

Dr. Jen Gunter: No. So the whole balancing a pH is this big myth. Anyone who tells you that you can balance the pH of your vulva or vagina has outed themselves as being an idiot on the subject. So you can't do that. There's no product that can do that. And I always tell people you should be blocking people online if they talking about that.

Mel Robbins: So how do you know if your pH is off?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Well if you don have any symptoms you don need to worry about it.

Mel Robbins: And what symptoms would I be looking for?

Dr. Jen Gunter: So if you have a discharge that different for you if it's yellow or green or has a smell or it's got blood in it, if you have itching either inside or on the outside, you should see your doctor. We check your pH of the vagina to help us make a diagnosis of some conditions, but an elevated pH in itself is not necessarily a sign that anything needs to be done medically. Also, in menopause, the pH of the vagina rises if you're not using estrogen.

Mel Robbins: You said that the vagina is a self-cleaning oven. What does that mean?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, that you don't need to do anything to it. When you think about a self-cleaning oven, if you took any abrasive cleaners to it, you would damage the inside of it, right? That's what that analogy is all about. So you don't need to add anything to it because you're just going to damage it.

Mel Robbins: Got it. Well, now I'm thinking about my oven because I always spray something in there before I, you know, turn the dial. So I'm both being marketed to incorrectly for my oven and I'm being marketed incorrectly for my vagina.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, I just want to say I am certainly not an expert in oven technology and I get around oven cleaning by just not doing it.

Mel Robbins: I saw online that if I eat pineapple, that my vagina is going to smell better. Is that true?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, no, that's a load of garbage. So, and I think it's really important for people to know that anytime they hear someone saying that, the underlying message is they want you to believe that your vagina stinks. It's all based in this idea that they want you to think that there's something wrong or bad or dirty with your body to sell a product or sell a diet or to just get attention and clicks, right? So you can't change the odor of your vagina with any kind of food.

Mel Robbins: What if you don't like the odor?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, if you think that there's something different, medically different, you should go in and get evaluated and get tested to make sure that what's going on is not a medical condition. And if there isn't a medical condition, then I think it's important to talk with your medical provider what's bothering you. But many, many people are really affected by that disinformation I spoke about earlier about all the shelves and shelves of products that they've been subjected to. They've often had awful things said to them by men about how their bodies smell. I spent a lot of time undoing harmful words from men.

Mel Robbins: You know, I'm sitting here reflecting on what you were saying about the way that there's been so much misinformation. And I've always been completely paranoid about smell. And I can think all the way back to college and hearing a male friend talking about somebody he had hooked up with and that she smelled bad. I think it was the first time I ever thought to myself, wait a minute, does everybody talk about this? Like, do we smell bad? And it has been something that stuck in my mind and has made me absolutely paranoid.

Dr. Jen Gunter: So do not worry about it unless there is something that makes you worried and then go talk to a doctor.

Mel Robbins: Yeah.

Dr. Jen Gunter: So your experience is really common. I would say that I have this conversation once a week in the office. I'm not kidding. Once a week, I'm undoing damage created by careless commentary from men. And often this is commentary that comes in the bedroom. Imagine you're supposed to be with somebody who loves you and they tell you that you stink. What kind of person does that? So yeah, there's this whole industry, this industry of feminine freshness. If you look at even today, the marketing, they tell you if you can invest in feminine freshness, you'll have more confidence. You'll have more confidence uncrossing your legs. I've seen that in an advertisement. You know, this is all built to sell product. And I would say that the least educated person about a normal vulva and vagina is a man.

Mel Robbins: Well, they don't have one.

Dr. Jen Gunter: So, you know, it helps to actually understand the equipment that you're trying to fix.

Mel Robbins: You mentioned that you can clean the outside, but you don't want to put anything on the inside. So is there a particular type of product or product to avoid when you're thinking about cleaning your body and your vulva and the vestibule?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, so generally I tell people to avoid everything associated with the feminine hygiene industry. If the wash is specifically for the vulva, it's just part of the pink tax. That's the best thing about it is you're paying more. But studies tell us actually that using these feminine hygiene products are associated with a higher risk of infections and other problems. So you don't want to use those. And they often have fragrance. And there's also the destructive messaging. Like it's a vagina, not a pina colada. Like your vulva shouldn't be smelling like a tropical fruit drink, right? It should smell like a body part. So there's all that destructive messaging.

Dr. Jen Gunter: So what happens is, you know, you can get a buildup of sebum on your skin just like you can anywhere else. And some people want to wash that off. And so a cleanser, just a cleanser like you would use for your face, a gentle facial cleanser. You know, I use either a CeraVe product or Userin, just whatever is, you know, on the market. But you want to be a cleanser, not a soap, because soap raises the pH of the skin and soap is drying. So a cleanser is the best thing, but it doesn't have to be a special vulva cleanser. A gentle cleanser that you use for your face is just fine, unscented.

Mel Robbins: You know, I had to laugh at the pina colada thing because I literally was sitting here thinking, But I want my husband, Chris, to go down and drink the pina colada. You know what I mean? So I am literally subject to the marketing.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, but you know what? He should think that your normal body is like that. It's exciting that you don't need sort of this artificial smell to make you enticing. You know, that's all marketing.

Mel Robbins: I had never thought about it that way. Now, let's talk about discharge. Is discharge normal?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, it's normal to have up to three to four milliliters of discharge a day. And so your vagina is constantly shedding cells. That's part of the way it protects itself. There's mucus coming out and the cells actually bad bacteria attached to the cells. And it's kind of like a way to flush things out. So it's a constantly sort of cleaning process, if you will. I mean, cleaning is not the exact right term, but it's an analogy. So go with it. So the discharge is just part of the normal, healthy ecosystem, you know, ecosystem, just like you have saliva, that's part of your normal, healthy ecosystem in your mouth. Everything's lubricated, so it doesn't feel dry, stuck together. And yeah, so you'll have up to three to four milliliters of discharge, which is pretty significant.

Dr. Jen Gunter: And I actually had a viral moment on TikTok where I showed people what normal discharge looked like on my underwear. And people freaked out because they hadn't seen that. You know, we use all these euphemisms to talk about discharge. And I'm like, look, this is normal. It's a normal amount of discharge. And, you know, get over it.

Mel Robbins: So is it like blowing your nose in a Kleenex sort of situation?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, it can vary. Some people can have very little. They might have almost nothing. And some people can have a healthy stripe on their underwear and anything in between. And that's okay.

Mel Robbins: I have never heard anybody explain discharge and connect it to saliva. But when you talk about it in that context, it makes perfect sense. And again, 56 years old, anytime I see discharge, I'm like, something's wrong with me. That is bad. I don't want that in my underwear. You said three to four milliliters. Like how much is too much?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Everybody's different. And obviously when we talk about that volume, we're talking about within sort of two standard deviations. So if you're soaking a mini pad, you should probably go in and get that checked out. That would be at the upper limit of normal. But many, many times I have women come into the office and they think that their discharge is abnormally heavy and they show me and I'm like, no, that's normal.

Mel Robbins: Wow. What should you look for in terms of, okay, I want to go see my doctor when it comes to discharge? Because having two daughters, this is one of those things that I hear them kind of complaining about. Like if they ever complain about anything body-wise, it's like, is this normal? Is discharge normal? And so other than it seems like too much, is there a color? Is there a smell? Like what should you look for.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, so white to clear discharge is normal, even a little bit of cream. If you have discharge that is dark yellow, if you have discharge that's green, if you have discharge that's got blood in it, those are all reasons to see a healthcare provider. If there's an odor associated with it, if you have an itch, if you feel irritation, if you have pain with sex, those would all be reasons to see a healthcare provider. And also if you think you could have been exposed to a sexually transmitted infection.

Mel Robbins: There must be so many myths and misinformation when it comes to the female orgasm. So Dr. Gunter, where do you want to start?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah. So I would say one of the biggest myths is that a penis is a reliable way to achieve orgasm. And I would say it's probably the least reliable way. So many, many women are made to feel that if they don't have an orgasm with penile penetration, that there's something wrong with them. And that's actually normal. Lots of people don't. You know, there's nothing wrong with you if penis and vagina sex isn't what gives you an orgasm.

Dr. Jen Gunter: This idea that both people should orgasm at the same time is also, you know, that's Hollywood, you know, which is invests what, like zero seconds in foreplay, right? So some people need a lot of foreplay. Some people want a lot of foreplay, right? So the idea that that you should just orgasm like that, also that's a Hollywood myth. And the idea that orgasm is needed for pleasure, right? So pleasure, desire, all of these things are important in the sexual experience. And so if somebody feels very satisfied with their sexual encounter and they haven't had an orgasm, that's also okay. We shouldn't be making sex necessarily goal-oriented. Obviously, if that's what you like, that's different, but it's important for us to understand there's a big, wide range of what people like.

Mel Robbins: I think that's really important because I would imagine if you're having trouble having an orgasm with penetration or if it's taking you longer than you think it should, and you start to develop a story in your head that there's something wrong with you or that this is very hard for you to do, I would imagine that all of that stress and the story you're telling yourself also interferes with your ability to have an orgasm.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Absolutely. Things that take you out of the moment, right? So, you know, mindfulness plays a big part in a good sexual experience and things that are taking you out of that, you know, just like, is there a pile dirty laundry. You know, different things can take you out of that moment, right? So yeah, I think it's just really important for people to understand that pleasure is generally the goal. And again, people have different desires, different things that they want to get out of sex. And so it's important to think about that whole range of experience.

Dr. Jen Gunter: But in general, I would say the biggest myth that I undo is this idea that, you know, the penis is the bringer of the orgasm. I mean, obviously there's lots of people who, you know, lots of women having sex with women who have a fantastic, amazing sex. There's people who have fantastic, amazing orgasms with vibrators. Like, get over the penis. I mean, it's not the be-all and the end-all.

Mel Robbins: If somebody's listening and they do have trouble having an orgasm, do you have particular advice or recommendations that you would give to somebody?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, there's a couple of good books that I would recommend, Come As You Are. I think it's a really great book by Emily Nagowski and Better Sex Through Mindfulness by Dr. Lori Brado. Those are a couple of good books that I recommend. You know, a sex therapist can be helpful. Just learning the mechanics, understanding things, and exploration, getting a vibrator, trying different things, seeing what pleasures, you know, thinking about all the different tools that might be available to you.

Mel Robbins: So if you're having sex and it's pleasurable, but it's painful, what do we need to know?

Mel Robbins: Yeah. So I would like people to know that pain with sex isn't a normal experience. And if you have pain with sex, your healthcare provider should be helping you out. Too often, I see people who just say, "Well, I told my doctor, he said that was normal," and it's not normal. So pain with sex is a medical condition, and it can be caused by many different things. So a yeast infection can cause pain with sex, for example. The changes with menopause can cause pain with sex. People can develop tight muscles around their vagina, a condition called vaginismus, which can cause pain with sex. People can have nerve pain conditions. They can have skin conditions that can cause pain with sex. There are many, many different things that can cause it. Endometriosis can cause scarring at the back of the vagina, and that can cause pain with sex. There's a condition called painful bladder syndrome. So you think about all the different structures that are around there. So many, many different things can cause pain with sex. So it's important to get an evaluation and get a diagnosis so then you can hopefully get the right treatment.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Dr. Gunter, do all vaginas self-lubricate?

Mel Robbins: So everybody makes vaginal discharge, but there's going to be a spectrum. And with sexual activity, there's also going to be a spectrum about how much lubrication is made in response to it. And there could be a whole different reason for that. Stress could play a role, your physical health, the amount of foreplay you've had, how you're feeling at the moment. And so if you need lube, great, you need lube. And if you don't need lube, great, you don't need lube. If you just like lube because you like it, great, you like lube. Why not try different things?

Dr. Jen Gunter: I take it we should be avoiding the lube that smells like a pina colada?

Mel Robbins: Well, I would just tell people to be mindful that there are lubricants that can be irritating. And there are lubricants that have what's called a high osmolality, and those can actually cause damage to the vaginal mucosa. They can be irritating over time. They can even cause some changes that might make it easier for you to contract HIV if you're exposed. So just be mindful about the warming ones, things like that. There is certainly potential for irritation with some of them. Some of them have menthol in them, which provides that warming or cooling sensation. That can be very irritating to the tissues. As a gynecologist, I always recommend people, if they're having any kind of issues, a silicone-based lube tends to be really very well tolerated. But there are lots of good water-based lubes. You can use oil. So there are lots of different options available. And obviously, if you use something and it irritates you, don't use it again.

Dr. Jen Gunter: That was a big word, the osmo... Osmolality, yeah. How would I even know if it has osmolality? I can't even say it.

Mel Robbins: Well, you would have a copy of the Vagina Bible. Or you would go to my blog, The Vagenda, and you'd be able to look up some of that stuff. So osmolality is basically the concentration of the molecules in water. And when you have a substance that has a high osmolality, it's going to pull water away. So we know the osmolality of the vagina is around 180, 200. And so if you have something that's much higher than that, it can dry out the vagina, can pull water out, and that can actually cause some damage to the cells. And we see some of these products have very, very high osmolalities, especially the things like the warming or the cooling or other types of things.

Dr. Jen Gunter: What are the no's? So as a gynecologist, if I'm looking at a lube, what do I want to get? What's your favorite lube?

Mel Robbins: Obviously, as a gynecologist, we're going to give the more general answer because there are different situations. But I would say, in general, the least irritating lube is a silicone-based lubricant. But not everybody likes the way that feels. So each lube has a different slip or feel to it. So there's water-based and there's oil-based lubricants. And obviously, you can't use oil-based if you're using a latex condom because it can weaken that.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Wait, okay. I didn't know any of this. So hold on a second. So oil-based, does that mean like coconut oil, olive oil? What kind of oil do you recommend?

Mel Robbins: So some people use oils, but there are also commercial oil-based lubricants as well. So anything that's oil-based or an oil can weaken latex. So you can't use that. But you can use water-based and silicone-based lubricants with latex condoms.

Dr. Jen Gunter: So Dr. Gunter, what is the hymen? Does it break when you have sex? What is this thing?

Mel Robbins: I wish people would just forget the word hymen. Just erase it from the collective knowledge because it is probably the most misunderstood body part. When we're infants, we have a pretty large hymen. It's a big mucosa, this big membrane that covers a large part of the vagina. And if you think about when you're an infant, you're leaking stool and you're leaking urine, and it would kind of make sense that you might have a bit of a barrier there. But then as you grow, the hymen basically becomes a nothing burger. And when you get exposed to estrogen when you start to go through puberty, it just becomes like the vagina. And some people, a very, very small percentage, might have a little bit of tightness left in that hymen when they're older. That would be the minority. That would be like, I run a specialty clinic where I see people who have pain with sex, and I might see that like once every two years. So again, that shouldn't be something in somebody's common collective. I tell people, think about the hymen like baby teeth. It's something you had at one point in time. It served some kind of purpose, and now it's not an issue. So the hymen doesn't break with sex. There's no cherry to pop. It's not a freshness seal. Most people don't have any bleeding the first time they have sex. So this is this whole myth that has been created by, I would say, the virgin industrial complex. Virginity is a social construct. It's nothing physical. There have actually been studies. We can't tell looking at somebody whether they're sexually active or not. We can't tell based on physical exams.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Really? Yeah. I didn't know that.

Mel Robbins: Yeah. So it's this whole awful industry, and there are these awful doctors offering to rebuild a hymen. This isn't even a thing. It's just so awful and it's so predatory, and it's all made to make women feel as if they're damaged or spoiled. Which is how different is that than making women feel that they stink? Everything is about making women feel smaller and damaged. And whenever you hear any message, you always want to think, okay, if I follow that thought to its conclusion, does that make me less of a person? And if it is, then that thought is wrong.

Dr. Jen Gunter: It's so true. I've never really thought about the enormity of the messaging. I don't ever hear women or men standing around talking about how somebody's balls stink, or that once a guy loses his virginity, something happens to his penis.

Mel Robbins: Right. Or the more erections the guy has, the more rubbery and flaccid his penis might get.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Right. That's another big myth. The more you have sex, your vagina is going to get stretched out. I'm like, have you ever even seen a woman? What is wrong with you? Does your mouth get stretched out from eating? What is wrong with you as a person to say that? There's a lot wrong with you.

Mel Robbins: Well, I'm sitting here laughing because I'm like, it doesn't. I've bought into all of these myths.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Right. I mean, but if those things got stretched out, then what would happen when you had a big bowel movement? Seriously, your body is designed, your muscles, everything is designed to stretch and come back, and it has elasticity. And this idea that the only body part that gets worn out or overstretched is the vagina is this big patriarchal, awful myth.

Mel Robbins: That's so true. Yeah. I mean, because it bounces back after you have a kid. Again, if we worried about things getting stretched, then how does that work with an erection? Think about how the skin is stretched and then it goes flaccid. Well, my gosh, if you have four or five of those, your penis is going to be ruined. Unbelievable. You're the best. Oh, my God. I wish I knew you when I was like in my teens. I've spent decades living as if these myths were true.

Mel Robbins: Well, you know, I think if I ever write an autobiography, it's going to be titled, "Wait a minute." That's a great, great title for you. I feel like right now is a great moment to take a break. And during the break, here's what I want you to do. Digest what we just talked about, but share this with anybody that you care about because we all need this information. Everybody deserves the truth. And that's what you're getting from Dr. Gunter today. And when we come back, we're going even more TMI. Does lace underwear cause a UTI? Pubic hair myths. The truth about cleanses. Stay with us because we're going there and we'll be waiting for you after a short break.

[BREAK]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins and you and I are here with Dr. Jen Gunter and I am asking her all the questions that we've been afraid to ask our doctors, and Dr. Gunter is showing up. So wait a minute. Do you need to wear underwear?

Dr. Jen Gunter: No. I mean, you can. You don't have to. If you like to, that's great. I'm a practical person. I don't like to get discharge on my pants because some of them are dry clean only. I don't have to wash them more often, but it's each to their own. It's totally fine. It's not serving any specific health purpose. People managed without underwear for millennia. If you want to wear it, great. If you don't want to, don't. It's all good.

Mel Robbins: Now, I remember growing up, my mom always used to say, "You got to sleep without underwear on because you got to let it all air out." And that seemed to make sense to me. But now I'm sitting here going, "Wait a minute, does your vagina need to breathe at night?"

Dr. Jen Gunter: Now your vagina doesn't have lungs, so no. Oh, my God. No, you don't need to air it out. The one minor exception might be if you're wearing latex against your skin all day, something that traps moisture and causes rubbing and irritation. So in the same way, if you think about a baby in a diaper, it's so occlusive because it's meant to stop any urine from getting out. So the idea that if you've had something occlusive on your skin for long periods of time, yes, it is good to give your skin a break from occlusion. But that's not what underwear is. I'm always like when people say that, have they seen underwear? What underwear is like that?

Mel Robbins: Well, what about shapewear? Is it bad for your vaginal health?

Dr. Jen Gunter: No, it's not. Your vagina is on the inside. Nothing on the outside is going to affect it. So if your shapewear is irritating your vulva, then it's probably a bit too tight. Just like if it's irritating your groin or something else. Just like if your shoes are too tight and they're uncomfortable. But if it's comfortable and you're fine, then wear what you like.

Mel Robbins: I saw something online where a person was going off, of course, about the fact that lace underwear can give you a yeast infection.

Dr. Jen Gunter: I don't know where people come up with these things. I think, though, again, follow it through to the end. Who wears lace? Loose girls, right? Black lace. So if you think about this white cotton underwear myth, where does that come from? Well, who wears black lace underwear? In the 50s, that would have been those kind of girls. I mean, awful ideas. So the idea that the color of your underwear is going to have some kind of health repercussion, well, then why isn't my green shirt affecting my skin? Why isn't your black shirt affecting your skin? How does the color of fabric only uniquely affect the vulva? That doesn't make any sense at all. Lace is fine if, again, if it's irritating you, if it's in the wrong place. We've all put on underwear where it's just caught in the wrong place in your groin. Then put a different pair on. That's really about the fit. So obviously a thong is fine as long as it's not irritating you.

Mel Robbins: Yeah, exactly. Everything's fine as long as it doesn't irritate. Look, if you want to wear something that's too tight, look, I personally don't because I like to be comfortable, but I'll admit I have worn uncomfortable shoes because they looked cute. So each to their own.

Dr. Jen Gunter: So Dr. Gunter, what do you want us to know about yeast infections?

Mel Robbins: Unfortunately, diagnosing a yeast infection or bacterial vaginosis over the phone or remotely is very difficult because the symptoms can overlap a lot. And there are lots of things that can produce identical symptoms to a yeast infection.

Dr. Jen Gunter: What are the differences between them?

Mel Robbins: So bacterial vaginosis is a change in the vaginal microbiome that has allowed emergence of what we call anaerobic bacteria. So bacteria that is less healthy for the vagina. Normally that bacteria is kept in check by the good bacteria, but it's been allowed to overgrow and it has changed the bacterial makeup of the vagina and it can produce an odor. It can produce a discharge and that can be a little bit irritating as well. Sometimes people get an itch. Everybody's different. A yeast infection is an overgrowth of yeast. The pH of the vagina remains the same, whereas the pH rises with bacterial vaginosis. And we don't really understand why people get recurrent yeast infections. We all have yeast in our vagina. We have yeast on our skin. We all have yeast everywhere in small amounts. And why for some people yeast starts to overgrow, we don't really know. There certainly are some factors that are linked to it. Sometimes it could be that people acquire a strain that's more virulent, more aggressive. There may be local immune system issues with the vagina as well. Estrogen in the vagina can sometimes increase the risk of yeast infections. That's why we see more in pregnancy as well. So there can be lots of different reasons for that. But other things can cause itch as well. So people can develop a dermatitis of their vulva and it can be very itchy and they can be misdiagnosed as having a yeast infection. So it can be hard to tell over the phone. So I always tell people if you believe you have a yeast infection, it's ideal to talk with a healthcare provider. But if you end up using an over-the-counter product and you don't get better, then you absolutely need to be seen. Because the majority of yeast will be treated with an over-the-counter product. So that should work about 95% of the time. So if it hasn't worked, then you need to be seen because then either if you do have a yeast infection, you might have a resistant strain. So you need to have that checked out. The more likely thing is that you never had a yeast infection to begin with. So you kind of get one remote treatment. And if that doesn't work, then you really need to escalate it.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Gotcha. And again, it's the same factors. If you're having pain while having sex, if there's a smell that's not normal or bothers you, if the discharge has changed, if you're itchy, those are all the same symptoms?

Mel Robbins: And the problem is they can overlap with many different conditions. So you can get itch and irritation from low estrogen in menopause. You can get itch and irritation from BV, bacterial vaginosis. You can get itch and irritation from yeast. You can get itch and irritation from a dermatitis on the vulva. So sorting those things out, if you're a specialist, it's not that hard if you ask the right questions and do the right tests. But it's important if you have those symptoms to see someone who can help you.

Dr. Jen Gunter: There's a lot of stuff online about boric acid being used to balance the pH of your vagina. Is that true?

Mel Robbins: No, you can't balance the pH of the vagina. If you put acid in the vagina, it's just going to return back to its pH very shortly after that. Boric acid doesn't work by raising the pH of the vagina, by the way, or affecting the pH of the vagina. It works because it's basically a detergent. It's like bleach, basically. It kills everything, which if you have a serious yeast infection that can't respond to other medications, then that might be an option. And we also use it as part of a multi-step regimen for bacterial vaginosis because the boric acid can destroy biofilms, which are complex sort of bacterial colonies in the vagina that can allow bacteria to persist.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Is that something people buy over the counter?

Mel Robbins: Yeah, and there's been a huge explosion of this. And I see people come in who've been using boric acid for months or using it all the time. And the thing is, it kills your good bacteria too. So you don't want to be using it. You don't want to use it to just touch up your pH or touch things up. People do that all the time and it's advertised. There are influencers on social media that advertise because they're paid to. And I would say that boric acid is probably the most misunderstood thing out there. And I'm not the only person who's seen this explosion of people using it. I was talking at a medical conference a few years ago, and I mentioned that. And these other OBGYNs who do the same thing, they were like, "Oh my gosh, I've seen the same thing." And yeah, it's a tool that we use in very specific situations, but it's not something that you should be using chronically. And the very rare situations where we may recommend that, you should really be under the guidance of someone who understands chronic yeast infections.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Wow. I'm just kind of letting all this sink in because you're right. The internet is this huge wild west of misinformation. And if you also put that against the backdrop of a history of chronic shaming of women for just normal body function and being marketed to for all of these products that we don't need and in fact can damage the way that your body is naturally designed to work, it's kind of scary.

Mel Robbins: Yeah, I mean, the internet is an amazing propaganda tool. It's also an amazing research tool. It's like a car. If you drive it correctly, you can go and see amazing places. You can visit the Grand Canyon. You can go to the Redwoods in Northern California. You can go to New York City. You can do amazing things in a car. And you can also drive on the wrong side of the road and kill someone. So it's like any tool. If it's used correctly and you're taught how to use it, it can be amazing. And if it's used incorrectly by people who are wanting to use it incorrectly for malice, people wanting to use it incorrectly just to sell products, and people who just don't know any better, you get all that as well. And so if you don't know how to sort it out, it can be a problem.

Dr. Jen Gunter: I am loving this so much and what I'm noticing is every time I ask you a question that I felt kind of embarrassed to ask, I feel even better. I love how much information you're sharing. So thank you for just being factual and blunt with us. We need to take a break, but when we come back, we are going to continue busting even more myths, including Dr. Gunter's takes on periods, how much water you need to drink, seed oils, apparently that's very controversial these days, your immune system, and so much more. So stay with us because we will be waiting for you after a short break for a word from our sponsors.

[BREAK]

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your buddy Mel. This is my own ad, and I took it out because I got something to say to you. You deserve to be happy. You deserve more time to put yourself first, time to breathe, and I want to help you get that time. So I've created a brand new zero-cost workbook for you. It's designed using the latest research to help you get clear about what you want. It's free, and it takes you less than a minute to get your hands on this puppy. Just go to melrobins.com slash what, W-H-A-T. There's nothing more important to spend your time on than yourself, and allow this workbook to be your guide to defining your next chapter. Just go to melrobins.com slash what and see for yourself.

[BREAK]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins, and you and I are here with Dr. Jen Gunter, and we're talking medical hot takes. So, Dr. Gunter, what are the biggest myths about periods?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, I think one of the biggest myths is that you're releasing toxins or impurities during menstruation, and you're not. It's just blood, like the blood from your arm, with some endometrium, which is the lining of the uterus, and some inflammatory fluid and some cervical mucus. And then by the time it comes out, it's picking up some of that vaginal discharge.

Mel Robbins: So what are the shocking symptoms of periods that no one talks about?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, I don't think anybody talks about period diarrhea, although I've certainly made that my personal mission to talk about that. So about 12% of people who menstruate get period diarrhea. And if you've had it, you know, and if you don't, then you're really lucky. And I had terrible period diarrhea. I mean, there were days where I'd have to go to the bathroom 10 times. I think I'm a prostaglandin overproducer. And yeah, so that's a symptom that people can have. And it's always amazing to me, whenever I talk about menstruation, I ask people in the room to raise their hands if they've ever had menstrual diarrhea. And usually it's higher than 12%, but I also think that my audience probably skews more to people who've had medical issues. So that's probably why. But then I ask, and they're almost all women in the audience, who's never heard of it. And there's always women who put their hand up. And I don't fault them. Nobody talks about it.

Mel Robbins: Well, I didn't think it was a thing. I just thought it was obvious because you're having cramps. So wouldn't everything be impacted by the cramps that you're having?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah. I mean, not everybody gets it. It's due to the prostaglandins. And we all have this different sensitivity, for lack of a better word, with prostaglandins. Probably some people make more. Maybe some people have more prostaglandin receptors. There's a scale in which people have menstrual cramps. There are people who are like, "I don't know what you're talking about. I don't feel anything ever." And there are people who have really bad menstrual cramps not due to another medical condition like endometriosis or something like that. So there's this whole spectrum. And some of that may be the fact that some people just either make more prostaglandins, which are the hormones that are produced during menstruation that are part of the menstrual cycle.

Mel Robbins: So Dr. Gunter, is there a cleanse that actually works to clear out the pipes and drop pounds, medically speaking?

Dr. Jen Gunter: No. When you hear the word "cleanse," you should think "scam." You should translate that into your head. Because it harkens back to the time when we were trying to get closer to God. You needed to cleanse yourself to be closer to your deity. And if you think back several hundred years, we thought about bodies in the sense of humors. You had black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood. And it was this imbalance. And we wanted to get back in balance. We wanted to get more pure. We wanted to get closer to God. And when germ theory was discovered, there was kind of a branching off. But it's really fascinating that the wellness industry has really tapped into that sort of purity culture. I mean, it's been with us for thousands of years. So "cleanse" is really a very purity culture type of term.

Mel Robbins: Is there a term that you would use instead? Because I do feel like there's this desire, at least when I think of wellness, like I want to do a reset. I want to, if my gut's not in good health, I want to do something that's going to reset it. I see you furrowing your brow at me.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, there's no reset. I've been brainwashed.

Mel Robbins: So you're saying you want to have a... that sounds like a religious experience at a temple or church, right? So obviously how you feel about your body is different for different people. And there are lots of people who say, "Wow, I feel really reset when I go away for a weekend." And again, that means different things to different people. But is there something medically that you should do to kind of reset your body? No. You just, if you want to start eating healthy, start eating healthy. If you want to start exercising, start exercising. There's no purity test that you need to pass or supplement that's going to get you there.

Mel Robbins: Do you actually need to poop every day?

Dr. Jen Gunter: I mean, the normal range is anywhere from three times a day to every three days. There isn't a set what you should do, but a lot of wellness influencers love to talk to you about that. I love to push that because there aren't going to be that many people who poop exactly once a day. The best way to look after your body from a gastrointestinal standpoint, this is a very generic example, is to eat 25 grams of fiber a day. And the average American diet, I think, has like 10 or 11 or 12. And if people are looking to make one dietary change, unless there's a specific reason your doctor's advised against it, adding fiber to your diet reduces your risk of breast cancer. It reduces your risk of colon cancer. It reduces your risk of type 2 diabetes. It's interesting. There are all these miracle cures that are out there, but they're just not sexy. Like add more fiber. It's easier to call it the "stand on one arm reflex diet." But yeah, it's just fiber. If people could take away two things for good health, I would say, whether it's for your menstrual cycle, whether it's for menopause, whether it's for your vagina, whether it's for any body part, it would be exercising and eating more fiber. Those would be the two take-home messages.

Mel Robbins: What are your favorite ways to get fiber?

Dr. Jen Gunter: So I'm a big fan of high-fiber cereals because I'm lazy. So if I have a high-fiber cereal in the morning, then I'm a third to a halfway there. I love Kellogg's Bran Buds. Call me Kellogg's, I would totally advertise for you. So they have 13 grams of fiber in a third of a cup. So you're halfway there and it's like 70 or 80 calories. And I mix it with a little bit of raw oatmeal, a little bit of walnuts, a little bit of blueberries, a little bit of milk. You're good to go. I've had more people tell me that I have changed their lives with Bran Buds than with anything I've recommended.

Mel Robbins: I'm filing a new sponsor of the Mel Robbins Podcast. We're going to make sure that they know that you're the one that recommended it. Other than exercise and 25 grams of fiber a day, is there anything else you can do to boost your immune system?

Dr. Jen Gunter: No. Boosting your immune system isn't even a thing you want to do. And what do you mean "boost your immune system"? What part of it? Your T cells, your B cells, your adaptive immunity? I have no idea.

Mel Robbins: Exactly. I just think I'm supposed to.

Dr. Jen Gunter: No. In fact, there are some diseases that are related to an overactive immune system. So "boosting your immune system" is a medically nonsensical term.

Mel Robbins: Wow, okay. Everyone is talking about seed oils online, at least. Are they bad? Are they good? What is a seed oil?

Mel Robbins: I don't even know. Well, I guess a seed oil is oil made from seed like canola, and it's not bad. I don't know. Somebody somewhere came up with an idea that they're inflammatory, and they're not. They're fine to use. They're great. I love my canola oil. It doesn't have much of a flavor to it. It's a good neutral oil. It's got a high smoking point. It's really good to cook with.

Dr. Jen Gunter: So yeah, I mean, people love to jump on these all-or-nothing things. They sound truthy. "Oh, it's inflammatory." It sounds truthy.

Mel Robbins: On one hand, listening to you, I feel so empowered because you're bringing the research and you have such a level of cutting through the crap. It appeals to my common sense. And I know the person listening is like, "Yeah, that's right. If I really did stop and think about it, it doesn't really make any sense." But for somebody who doesn't have a medical degree and doesn't have the time to sift through all this research, it's so overwhelming. One person says this, another person says that. An influencer is trying to sell me protein powder. I'm doing a cleanse, a reset, trying to pick my kids up from school, thinking about this and that, and I don't know which pill to take. It's overwhelming.

Dr. Jen Gunter: It absolutely is. That's why I always try to think about how I feel when I'm in a situation where I don't know things, like at the computer store or with my car—I'm a black hole with those. The secret of medicine is that most of it isn't that hard; there's just a lot of it. There are certain things you need to know. If you want to be a doctor, it's good to know all the stuff around it. But as a patient, there are core things you need to know. I think one of my superpowers is weeding through and saying, "This is a core thing, and this is a core thing." It's always hard because you're trying to take a complex subject and make it available to a lot of people. There are always exceptions. I always tell people, when you're listening to a podcast or reading a book, appreciate that this is a general conversation. There are people who have individual reasons things might not work for them. But the general truths are true. The general truth is you don't want to put soap on your vulva. The general truth is you don't need to clean inside your vagina. The general truth is removing body hair is a choice, not something you have to do. You can do it if you want, but there might be some risks. That's what being a grownup is all about. Also, understand that there are so many forces trying to weaponize the way we don't talk about women's bodies against us. There are so many people trying to make a buck.

At the end of the day, the reason I do this is because when I was pregnant, I had a very complicated pregnancy. I had triplets. One of my sons died at birth. My other two boys were in the intensive care unit for a very long time—they were one pound eleven ounces and one pound thirteen ounces. My son Oliver also had a complex congenital heart defect. He needed his first heart surgery when he was three pounds. They both came home on oxygen. My son Victor also had cerebral palsy. I know what it's like to be overwhelmed. I know what it's like to have people offer you an easy answer and head down the wrong path. I made choices for my kids that I wish I hadn't. I get how hard it is to take all of that in. I want people to know that I'm coming from that place. I've been there. I know how awful it feels. I just don't want other people to feel like that if I can have any part of fixing it.

Mel Robbins: Well, thank you. You have cut through so much crap for us today. I'm sure the person listening, just like me, is feeling a mixture of tremendous gratitude and empowerment. And then also the question I always have: What do I do? What do I do? What do I do? Other than sending and sharing this episode with everyone you know and checking out all the resources—which there will be so many listed in the show notes—if you were speaking directly to the person listening who just wants to feel empowered, and our audience more than anybody is really about action, what can I put into action in my life? What is the most important thing? Will you just speak to that person directly?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Something that I think is a very important thing to consider is to always fact-check the information you get. Investing in learning how to check information is a really great tool—not just for the disinformation about medicine, but all kinds of disinformation about so many different things. So invest in learning. The other thing I would say is that anybody trying to tell you that you need to fix something urgently, that you're wrong, that you've got to act on this—that's a sales pressure tactic. Unless you're in the emergency room and you're literally bleeding to death, there's always time to step back, gather information, and not act out of a place of anxiety or panic. Urgent health situation? Different. But in general, the stuff you see coming at you on social media? You have time to stop, reflect, absorb, and look for other sources.

Mel Robbins: That one certainly hits home. I think everybody probably has a situation in their family with somebody they love. My husband's father was diagnosed with esophageal cancer, and six days later, he was in an emergency room—no second opinion—and the surgery went horribly wrong. There's no doubt in my mind that that rushed surgery, not taking a breath and reminding yourself that you have time, ultimately killed him.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Oh.

Mel Robbins: I do think that's a really important thing for you to hear: you have time. Is there a particular way you would recommend we research? Most of us go into our doctors with printouts from WebMD and probably get the giant eye roll from the docs. "Oh, here we go. Done the research." But is there some way you would recommend we conduct our research, or other sites you would send us to?

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, I'm not a believer in hacks, but I'm going to give you my number one hack. Google is not a medical library. Google is a repository of information, and it's not curated for you in a way that's helpful. It's a popularity contest. There's so much search engine optimization. What comes up first is not always accurate. We all take what comes up first or second. And if the first, second, or third thing isn't what you want, instead of going further, we all just start the search again. What you can do is take your topic and find out the name of the medical professional organization that governs that area.

Mel Robbins: How do I do that?

Dr. Jen Gunter: For example, for menopause, you would put your question—"hot flashes treatment"—and then put "menopause society" or "NAMS." They used to be called the North American Menopause Society. That will force everything menopause-society-related to come up first.

Mel Robbins: If I were doing that on a type of cancer or a certain type of bone break, if I use the word "society," does something come up?

Dr. Jen Gunter: You could start with the American Cancer Society. On that page, you might find, "Okay, esophageal cancer is under this." You could also ask the doctor: "What's the organization that writes the guidelines for this condition?" Or you could just Google that: "What is the organization that writes the guidelines?" But they're not all what you think. I can never remember the name, so I'm not going to say it, but there's one pediatrics organization that's actually basically a hate group, but they've got a name almost identical to the American Academy of Pediatrics. You have to be very careful. There are bad actors out there. So ask the physician who writes the guidelines, because there are guidelines. You could put "WHO," World Health Organization. You could put "CDC" because there are guidelines. If you're dealing with cancer, someone's come up with the guidelines for esophageal cancer. Someone's come up with the guidelines for endometrial cancer. Start going there. The American Cancer Society would be a great place to start. Try to get articles from there. Often you can find references in those sites and go on. Also, some places have medical libraries where you can talk to medical librarians. Smaller hospitals don't necessarily have that, but some places do. My son, who has the heart problems, is having open heart surgery next month. That's how I looked up all the things his doctor told me. I believed her and I trust her—she's fantastic—but I wanted to look things up as well. That was the strategy I took.

Mel Robbins: Well, Dr. Jen Gunter, the entire Mel Robbins Podcast family is going to be sending your family all kinds of loving energy for a wonderful outcome.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Thank you.

Mel Robbins: Thank you so much for being here and pouring into us. I feel really empowered. It feels really good knowing that somebody as smart as you is out there cleaning up the internet and busting the myths and misinformation on behalf of all of us. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Thank you so much for having me. It's been great.

Mel Robbins: You're welcome. And to you listening, I want to thank you for being here with us today. I'm sure you feel as empowered as I do. Make sure you send Dr. Gunter and her family incredible healing vibes. We are linking to all the resources cited in the show notes. I wanted to be sure to tell you, in case nobody else does, that I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. Today you learned so much common-sense, research-backed medical advice that will help you take control of your health and advocate on behalf of yourself and your family. I hope you go do that. I'll talk to you in a few days.

[Sound of shuffling, off-mic chatter]

Mel Robbins: So Dr. Gunter, thank you for jumping on a plane and flying across—I can't even speak.

Dr. Jen Gunter: [Laughs] You were just warming up. It's all good.

Mel Robbins: Also, I just realized I should probably clean my glasses.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah. I just took off a layer of street grime from mine. Now I'm like, "Oh my God, I can actually see." It's amazing.

Mel Robbins: Do you like that? Yeah. I'm going to do one more. Hold on a second.

[Pause]

Mel Robbins: Okay.

Dr. Jen Gunter: Whatever it's called.

Mel Robbins: Dr. Gunter, no problem. I'll do it.

Dr. Jen Gunter: All right. Thank you for letting me talk so much.

Mel Robbins: Oh, thank God you did. You were awesome.

[Legal disclaimer]

Mel Robbins: Oh, and one more thing. This is not a blooper. This is the legal language the lawyers write that I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.