--:-- If you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. This is a disorder of self-loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity, they hate themselves. But then they put it on other people. They project it onto other people. So narcissists are miserable. They're miserable. Miserable. Today, I am joined by one of the world's leading experts on narcissism and narcissistic abuse. She hosts the award-winning podcast, Navigating Narcissism. Dr. Ramani Dervasula. So how do you create boundaries with a narcissist? It's not easy. The key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early. If you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Like get away from them. This is dangerous. But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic? Yeah, but I'm like, I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater this morning. It's unfortunately a one in five. You date five people. What are the odds? Can you love a narcissist or is it impossible? The bigger question I often get is can a narcissist love? Is that possible? So the... Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. We have Dr. Ramani in the house. Very excited. Thank you for being here. Thank you. You have been doing intensive work on psychology and specifically about narcissism more recently. And really your content has been blowing up online. Thanks. You've got an amazing book out called, Don't Know Who I Am. Don't You Know Who I Am. Don't You Know Who I Am? how to stay sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement, and incivility. And why is narcissism such a big topic, especially right now in our society? It's interesting, it wasn't for a very long time. I mean, it's fascinating to have been studying something when nobody cared about it. Like I was like, I was that nerd in the lab with the butterfly that nobody cared about. Everyone, I was literally back room of a lab and everyone forgot about me. I was content because I'm a nerd. I'm geeked out. I was like, this is fascinating. And then a lot of things happened. You know, if anyone ever asked me, this is my theory on it, is I think it's interesting. There's a book from the 1970s by a guy named Christopher Lash called The Culture of Narcissism. And in that book, he really gets into the 70s, okay? And he really gets into issues like materialism and also the falling apart of American community structures and family structures And so he pins this sort of pathological narcissism and selfishness to the sort of the erosion of those structures But I think that misses something Then it was kind of quiet. Like this has always been a quiet area, interestingly, in mental health. And then reality TV happened. Social media happened. We had to witness it all. Yeah. And we had to witness it all. Kids are growing up with it now. Political dramas and fights and- Lots of, and materialism was on the rise. So when we look at materialism, social media, and reality TV, that kind of triple threat where everything was about shameless self-promotion, everything was about validation seeking. Look at me. No, look at me. No, look at me. My life's better than yours. It was that, it was, I will never forget the day, actually, I was, when I, someone told me about social media. It was in that space between MySpace and Facebook. Facebook, yeah. And I had small, small children at the time. And I think I was up late. And somebody said, you got to look at this thing called Facebook, right? And I'm like, I don't know what this is. And so at the time I was even married. So really no social life. And I look at it and it's that moment, that penny drop moment where I could feel that dread in my stomach. As though like a ghost appeared in the door. And I thought to myself, oh, my God, this narcissism thing is about to blow up. Because before that, think about it. If you were a narcissist and you needed to get validation, you actually had to get up and get out of the house. Right? Like no one was going to, you had to get up, kind of get ready, go to work. A lot of narcissists got their validation at work, especially men in that era. And then other people like would get it by like going to social events, going to parties, maybe succeeding at something. But it was a different game. Going to the gym maybe. Maybe going to the gym. But now all of it, excelling at something visible like sports or performing or like singing or something like that. But then I was like, oh, hell no. You're telling me that people are going to be able to get validation just sitting at home. And I thought this narcissism thing is going to blow up. That was 2008 when I had that revelation. I started telling people, you know, people said like, oh, honey, you're just, you're running off in your head. Get some sleep. Like you're acting crazy. And I said, no, no, no. This is going to blow up. And then it blew up. And at around that time, we're starting to see the beginnings of reality TV shows like, you know, Survivor and things like that I like hmm this is interesting And then we start seeing more and more and more of the attention reality TV housewife shows and all of that The Bachelor The Bachelor And I thought oh no no no And then the political winds changed and the word came into popular use. So imagine going from something that you studied, only you studied. No one cared about it. Nobody cared about it. And then also it's mainstream. And then the world changed and it became mainstream. Exactly. And but this another thing that was happening too was this I was studying it in my research. I had been funded by the National Institutes of Health to look at personality issues because I was working with folks who were working in community clinics and they would come back from the community clinics back to the main lab at the university and say and they would look frazzled and I'll say, hey, what's up? And they'll say some of these patients they're so terrible and they're ruining everyone's lives. was that there were some patients who come in entitled and grumpy and take it out on the staff. And I thought, that's interesting. These people are not only burning out the staff so they can't give good health care to other people, they themselves, everyone's dreading seeing them, so they're not getting good health care. And then a few years later, I was noticing a pattern in my patients over and over again. It's like they were all talking about the same relationship. And I thought, this is interesting. Nobody ever taught these people about narcissism, because this is clearly what was happening in their relationships. And I'm not kidding you. once they got educated on these patterns they were making changes like this some were getting divorced some were splitting up some were saying i'm going to set boundaries i mean it was it was insta change and they said we were in couples therapy for five years and always about marriage is hard you got to communicate i'm like communicating with the narcissist is i don't know it's like it's impossible he's screaming into an abyss like there's no point wow so So is there hope for people in marriages if they're in a relationship with a narcissist to actually heal the relationship and improve it? Or is it just going to be hard the rest of your life? Going on a probability basis, the answer is no. I think it's going to be hard always. Are there unicorns out there? Sure. But the amount of commitment you'd need on the part of the person who's narcissistic. I mean, we're talking about daily commitment. On the person who is a narcissist. Then the person who's narcissistic has to get into therapy multiple times a week. They have to be willing to have humility. They have to be willing to be mindful. They have to be willing to regulate themselves. That's a long list of things they need to be willing to do. They can't be impulsive. They can't say whatever's on their mind. It's fascinating because I have worked with, I say 25 of the clients I worked with in my clinical practice for a long time now have been narcissistic Why would they even come to work with you if they narcissistic Because something going wrong in their lives Their marriage is blowing up They're having some sort of public shaming. Their career isn't going well. They have to, essentially. Lawsuit. They feel the world is against them. And in this victimized stance, they roll up to therapy. And somebody's wanting to complain, right? Every so often, they're given an ultimatum, maybe by a workplace or by a spouse or someone. Maybe they get caught in an affair, and then they're told that wife or husband or partner or spouse will say, we're not staying together unless you get therapy, which is a fool's errand because if someone else is telling them to do it, even if they do it on their own, there usually isn't much personality. Personality doesn't really change. Personality doesn't change unless you're, like, doing therapy every week and holding yourself accountable on the internet. Listen, I have a certain personality. I got it tested when I was in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. It hasn't changed. I'm a little bit more confident now. That's not my personality. That's just time served. Right. It's like I put in more reps. Yes. I put in more reps. So I'm like, now I know I can do this thing. Right? But it's not that. I was born agreeable. I grew up agreeable. I was an agreeable adult. I'm an agreeable person. That's just who I am. When is our personality shaped? Well, there's two pieces to personality. We're born, the genetic part of personality, if you will, is called our temperament. Our temperament. Temperament. You're born and you're either a crier or not a crier. I can make it ultra simple. There's some kids out there who have really difficult temperaments, are born into the world difficult. Talk to a parent, they're kids who are difficult to soothe, to make them stop crying, to help them sleep. As time goes on, they're just difficult kids. They don't play as nice. They have low frustration tolerance. They're difficult with their siblings. They're punchy, fighty. They get to school. They can't sit still. They're always getting into trouble, and none of the adults like them. These kids with these difficult temperaments actually have this relationship with the world that's pretty unpleasant. Everyone's like, sit down, stop that, don't do that. There's even this vibe these kids get. Nobody really wants to spend time with them because they're a real handful. Is it their fault? I mean, they can't really change that when you're five. No, you can't. The difficult temperament is a risk factor for the adult narcissistic personality. Now, not everybody with a difficult temperament goes on to become narcissistic. So it's not a slam dunk, not everybody with a difficult temperament goes on to become narcissistic. So it's not a slam dunk, but it's definitely when we tell that story backwards, every narcissistic client I've ever worked with without exception had a difficult temperament as a child. So that either they, every so often I'd get lucky, we'd phone the parent during therapy and say, can we talk about this? Sometimes they'd ask the parent and the parent would come clean on that and say, yeah, you were a real, because you had siblings, right? So they'd compare them to siblings. Some siblings have this great, easy temperament. It's not quite, so temperament is that biological part of our personality. It's how you might see your personality in either one of your parents or in a grandparent or an aunt or an uncle. You'll say, wow, I have such a similar personality to them. That's the genetics of it. And the other? All the rest of it is shaped by the world. Environment, parents, society, how you were treated and what you were exposed to. Exactly. So if you had a, let's say, a challenging temperament growing up, is there hope for you to, you know, I guess shift your personality into a different style with environment? I think so. I think so. I think a couple of things have to happen. That kid needs to be met where they're at. So let's say you have a boy with a difficult temperament who's just energy and you get them into athletics or you get them into something where they're using their hands, whatever that might be, building things or something like that. And you really are with them. Instead of saying you're being so bad, you're so difficult, like, wow, look at that rocky you built. Or like, oh my gosh, you ran 10 miles today. Or you threw the ball. Or like, this is great. Like, let's do it together. And they have a parent who wants to maybe do those things with them. I've heard of some, this is where it's interesting. I hear a lot of these stories, if not in athletics, but people who do things like climb mountains, that kind of thing. And sometimes the parents got them into these things because the kid was just a bolus of energy. And then they would, and then the parents would really encourage them, might even go with them. with them or whatever. So I do think if that child feels loved, safe, protected, attached, they feel like they have a safe base to return to, which is usually their primary caregiver. They can relax more into it. And they have success experiences, right? So maybe they're not the best kid in school, but they're really like, they feel loved no matter what, whether they can read or not, whether they can do math or not, they're loved. And that they have these other outlets. That's cool. and that the school is supporting them and meeting them. How many kids do you know who have things line up like that I can count on one hand the number of kids I know who got that lineup I mean who had like all the support and love We love you no matter what Yeah It very challenging It interesting because I interviewed Kobe Bryant before he passed obviously And he said his father, one summer when he was playing basketball, I think he was 13, he said he didn't score one point the whole summer in like this summer competition league. And he said, my father told me no matter what, I'm going to love you. whether you score zero points or you're the highest scorer, I'm going to love you no matter what you do. No matter how good or how bad you are, I love you no matter what. And he said that conversation with his dad gave him the confidence to say, I'm going to go out and go for it. No matter what happens, I'm loved is the way he explained it. And I thought that was interesting. But not a lot of people have had the school support and parent support and sibling support and the encouragement. But it sounds like you can't change a personality, but you can channel a personality into other activities to support their growth. Is that right? So every human being has the same sort of essential ingredients that they need in terms of wanting, you know, like, again, a safe base. Yes. A safe place of attachment. A sense of being loved no matter what. Yeah, their behavior could be called out. Like, no, you cannot tear up the living room. That behavior is not okay. I love you. I love you whether you get the 13 points or the no points. You're still grounded, but I love you. You're still grounded. I love you. And so that sort of consistency and safety. But it was interesting. I was just reading a research paper from 2014. And in this paper, they were talking about basically how do you make a narcissistic adult out of a kid. One thing we're seeing a little bit right now is this problem of children being overvalued for nothing. Celebrated for just being. Celebrate it for, like, you're just so great. And you're saying, well, what should we tell kids if they're not great? Well, great means something, right? Great is excelling. So you love a child. You cultivate their strengths. But the idea being that narcissistic parents are very vulnerable to thinking their kids are great because they have to be. They're my kids, so they better be great kids. So these kids are being told they're all that over and over. And you're all that. You're all that. You shouldn't, you're special. You shouldn't have to struggle with the slings and arrows of the world. Well, then they get to adulthood and the slings and arrows happen and they are not having it And that where you see that on top of everything else can also be what fosters the building of the narcissistic child just overindulge And what happens is they almost they're overindulged for their outsides and you're so special, but their emotional world isn't nourished. So nobody is sitting with their emotions and letting them be sad. It's many times like, come on, let's all be happy. It's a lot of that. And that's a dangerous game to play. Would you say with your research, if kids grew up in a healthy family, let's say they got all the tools and resources and their parents were healed from their traumas and gave them discipline but love and all these things in the best way you could. Is it possible for someone to still be raised as a narcissist even if they have this environment of love and safety? Or how does a narcissist become one? Is it only through family environment and the way they were treated? or how does it actually happen? So the problem, if someone had all the fundamentals, right? The safety, the love, the consistency, the freedom from trauma. Great values. The great values, you know, all of those things, supportive educational environment, all of that. You still will have a handful, but you will have dropped the probability from here down to here. Okay. Right? It's like a horse race, right? You've really dropped the likelihood significantly. Certainly. Narcissism is... Creating adult narcissism is a complex interblend of that biological temperament meeting up all these environmental conditions. And there's a range of conditions that can result in adulthood narcissism. At the most extreme and probably the most difficult is trauma in childhood. So a child who is raised and experiences trauma, significant caregiver loss, chaos, abuse, observing abuse, because that results in inconsistent caregivers, right? And so that can put a person at risk for developing an adult narcissistic personality. But here's where it gets tricky. The majority of people exposed to trauma in childhood don't become narcissistic. You see what I'm saying? We're talking about risk factors. You could, but you don't always. So that's one pathway. This overindulgence, this over, like, you're so great. You're so special. You're so extraordinary. My kids are the most extraordinary thing. That's another model towards narcissistic personality development Conditional love Kobe Bryant father I only going to love you if you come back having scored 20 points If you don don even show up Right Now imagine that happening 1 times 10 times I love you when you clean the dishes I love you if you get straight A's. I love you if you make the soccer goal. I love you if you whatever. The child learns that all love is conditional, which is really transactional, basically. All narcissistic relationships in adulthood are transactional. Interesting. You set the tone there with conditionality. A lot of this, though, comes down to something called attachment. An attachment is something that's created in the first year or two of life. It requires an available, consistent, responsive caregiver. One, singular. You need that. That person who is there, who looks at the baby, who responds when it cries, who loves it, who holds it, who feeds it. You need that safe, it's called a secure attachment. A lot of the research really points to the importance of that secure attachment as being something that predicts a lower likelihood of adult narcissism. So if you have a secure attachment, you're less likely to be narcissistic. But if you have an anxious attachment and an anxiously attached baby is the child who absolutely flips out when their caregiver leaves. Like, you know, if the mommy drops them off and they lose it, then the person who receives the child has a hard time soothing the child. And then when the child sees the parent again, they start crying again, almost like, how could you leave me? Abandoned me for five hours. And that anxious attachment style is very much associated with the narcissistic style in adulthood. Yeah. Mm-hmm Can you break down the differences between narcissists Psychopaths sociopaths and then also how you spot them. Hmm. So there's a big difference If I was at a chalkboard here, I'm drawing a Venn diagram with overlapping circles Lots of overlap between narcissism and psychopathy. Lots. The boldness, the meanness, the impulsivity, the disinhibition, the always working the angles, the exploitativeness, the manipulativeness, the entitlement. Absolutely overlapping. So you might be wondering, then what's the difference? Here's the difference. Narcissistic people are insecure. And they are very insecure. And lots of feelings of inadequacy. But that's all happening at an unconscious level. But I want you to think of a narcissist as somebody who constantly has a stomachache. Because they're going through their lives, but there's almost this tension, they're not But I want you to think of a narcissist as somebody who constantly has a stomach ache, right? But I want you to think of a narcissist as somebody who constantly has a stomach ache, right? Because they're going through their lives, but they're like, there's almost this tension. They're not aware why they have it. But the tension that the top's going to get blown off and we're going to be able to see their inadequacies. That's why they're so sensitive to criticism. Oh, my God. Like if I were to say, hey, like, yeah, it's interesting. You got some dust on your shirt. And you're like, oh, really? And you start coming at me. Oh, no, you got this on yours. What are you talking about me? Like, yeah. This and this and this. criticizing you. Yes. You see what I'm saying? That's a hedge against the shame. That's the narcissist game. Psychopath doesn't go there. Psychopath is not anxious. Psychopath is not insecure. They're calm. Their nervous systems are different. So there's a part of our nervous system called the autonomic nervous system. This is the involuntary part of our nervous system. And it's from which the sympathetic nervous system comes off, which you know is fight or flight or freeze. and that fight flight freeze and there's even a fourth part to it called fawn which we could talk about but that that autonomic reaction that like boom adrenaline got you know eyes wide open kind of reaction that's not there for the psychopath so whereas i i don't know if i saw something out there and i saw someone had a hundred dollar bill hanging out their wallet never could i ever like i would have a heart attack from the anxiety of thinking about like no you know because i have a very probably overly functioning autonomic nervous system. But for somebody who's a psychopath, they'd clip that and their heart rate would not go up. They would not think. They just take it, steal it. So they have no anxiety. No excitement around it. No excitement, no anxiety, and they're very stress resistant. And that way, that's why there's so many psychopathic CEOs. If you're going to be a CEO and nothing bothers you, you're able to say, cut those 100,000 jobs. And then you still go off and play golf for the afternoon because nothing gets you. They sometimes make great surgeons because when all hell's breaking loose, they're just sort of calmly doing their surgery thing. It really is. But there is a coldness and a callousness because there is almost like no capacity for empathy, no capacity for intimacy. And psychopaths are almost singularly motivated by power, pleasure, and profit, and mostly by power. They solely want to dominate because that's what they do. Narcissists like to dominate, but they actually kind of seem like dumb dogs next to the psychopaths. Really? Yeah. The closest we get to overlap is what we call malignant narcissism So that when we have all the goodies we see in narcissism But we see is more of a sadism and a paranoia in the malignant narcissists They the most dangerous narcissist They're still not fully psychopaths because they still have the insecurity and the inadequacy it the psychopaths don't come out secure They're not insecure. No, I mean if you if you see a psychopath get mad It's simply because you might have gotten in the way of something they needed to get to get done You know what they'll instead do they'll very quietly figure out a way to destroy you. To get rid of you. Exactly. Or they'll calmly have someone say like, I'll literally look at you if I was the psychopathic boss and you were working for me, I'd be like, and I'd be calm and I'd go, and then I don't know whether that means you should kill that or fire that or whatever, but no problem with that. Right. And very easily. They don't have the emotion, they don't have empathy. No empathy. Does narcissists have empathy? Narcissists have, we tend to say, oh, they don't have empathy. They have what we call, I like to call it, instrumental empathy. They weaponize empathy. So narcissists get what empathy is. They know. They use it against you. They use it to get what they need. They don't necessarily use it against you. But like if they want to get you to do something, oh, man, I heard your mom's sick. Oh, man. Oh, my gosh. How's she doing? I'm so sorry. Like it's rough. You know, my mom was sick. She was really sick for a while too. I get all that. It's the blood rapport. It's the rapport. And then they're getting something from you. Oh, my gosh. So it feels like empathy. You know, and especially when you first meet them, that's why so many people think narcissistic people are charming and charismatic. They know what's right. Or I should say they know what empathy is. They know how to read the room. So they got it. But they can't be bothered with it. They actually cognitively get it. They can think about empathy. I need something from him. Somebody said his mom's sick. So let me work the mom angle here because that's going to help him feel better. What they don't have is any regard for so they have no regard for the feelings of others. They don't care So when they're done with you and they've gotten what they need from you and someone's the next week when they're fully done with you And say hey his mom got sicker and like so yeah, so what do you want me to do about it? So it's very cold when they're done so that it's and that's why people say well Don't tell me they don't have empathy because it seemed like they cried at that movie or they were really understanding my feelings I'd say they needed something at that point So what was the most? the scariest narcissist what was it called Or the most dangerous malignant narcissist Okay so can you explain again what that is So let talk about let view narcissism as almost like this inner core okay And the inner core of narcissism is this variable empathy, usually a lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, validation seeking, a sense of envy for other people or the assumption that other people envy them. The inability to regulate their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed, or stressed. A sense of shame. So if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with rage. A reactive sensitivity to criticism. So if anyone points out anything, they come at them. Blame shifting and responsibility shifting. So they blame other people for what is actually their responsibility. They're very controlling, very egocentric. Everything is about them. Everything is self-serving. Insecure. Deeply insecure. Lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down. All of these things I'm talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it, it's like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy so nobody ever sees it. If I'm walking around telling you I'm all that, well, then I can't be inadequate, right? And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm, then I'm all that, right? but it is actually fascinating to watch that moment if you could put it in slow-mo when the the shame gets activated i don't know they don't get the girl or they don't get the guy or they don't get the job and the rage it just it pops out like that oh man he's an idiot i feel like um i feel like i'm sorry i'm so uh reactive to this not in a negative way but i feel i'm remembering many things in my life. In many relationships, I have always wanted to do therapy with people. And in multiple relationships, they were resistant. They never wanted to do it. They said, no, I'll never do therapy. So resistant. Eventually getting the therapy. So it's so funny you're saying this because I feel like, I don't know, I'm just having these flashbacks here. But in everything you're saying here, it just seems like crazy to me. So I feel like maybe I might have been with some narcissist, maybe I haven't with everyone, but I wondering what attracted me to maybe some people that had this when originally I didn know they had this It didn seem like they had these things It seemed like you know they were loving and supportive and kind and generous. But the more you say these things, I'm just like, okay, that's interesting. So with narcissism, we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors. And those are presentations. Charm, charisma, confidence, curiosity. And they also... Can you have those things and not be narcissistic? You can. Because I'm a very curious person. I care, you know, I'm like... So here's where it gets interesting, right? Is you can be curious. When you can find an empathic, charismatic person, behold them. They are the unicorns of the human being. like someone who's confident and caring when i meet the when i meet the confident charismatic empathic kind respectful humble person i do i literally i'm like okay everyone and i can tell you it doesn't happen often and i'm usually like i look goo goo eyes because i'm thinking and then of course i'm poking at it i'm like no no no i'm gonna find or find what's wrong with it every so often i find it and i'm like it hasn't happened often it hasn't happened often but here's the the charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity. There's also comfort that they also offer. It's like they'll often feel like they're rescuers, I can take care of it all. They'll be very generous. Up front, right? It's all a front game, right? So what happens then? The curtain comes down across all your common sense. And you miss the little things. They're like, this is amazing. Yeah. And either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger in the rage and all the other stuff or you justify it you just well yeah yeah you know well he's got a big job or she's really stressed or she doesn't mean that or that's just their culture oh my gosh you just said that someone i was with was like well this is my culture no no i mean this is my culture i go no and i tell me no empathy like it makes no sense to me like i've heard that excuse and i get to say this because i'm from a very different culture And I'll say, oh no, I do not know a culture where meanness is permitted. And to say to that person, if that's your culture, then go with God. Exactly. Because. Squirreling at someone and being angry and not regulating your emotions is not culture. No, that's not a culture. But yet, I'm amazed at how often. I was reading an article by a linguist recently. not regulating your emotions is not a culture. not regulating your emotions is not a culture. No, that's not a culture. But yet, I'm amazed at how often... I was reading an article by a linguist recently, and the linguist was talking about how people talk over each other in certain cultures, right? And they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting. And there's interrupting and there's interrupting. Narcissistic interrupting is not only... It's contemptuous interrupting. What's that mean, like dismissive interrupting? It's dismissive like, okay, all right. You know, you're talking and then I not only cut in, but it's basically like. Your point of view doesn't matter or yeah, you're an idiot. You're an idiot. I know it's really, yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So you shared some of these signs of malignant. No, that's okay. So let's go back to the core. So we got the core of lack of empathy, all that stuff I talked about. Entitlement, yes. Yes. Now the problem with narcissism is there's subtypes. Oh my gosh. Not all narcissists are creative. We really do need a whiteboard. I'd be writing notes up there because what we have then is the classical narcissist, the sort of 57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist. It is the big, charming, confident, I'm the one, I'm the best, no insight, very little empathy, kind of, but very like big salesperson-y. That's the grandiose narcissist. Grandiose. This is someone who says when you meet them the first day, I love you. And we're going to be together forever. Once in a lifetime love story. This is magical, right? It's that. Oh man, flashbacks for me. Grandiose. Okay. But then when we talk about the malignant narcissist, again, we have all that stuff, lack of empathy and all that other stuff, but they are more menacing. They are more controlling. They're a little bit more scary. They're sadistic. They're paranoid. What if they have both of those things? Usually they can. They can. And that's a horrific combination. Because then that person's real charming on the front end. And then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way in with them, now you're dealing with their malignant, manipulative, scary. And when we see controlling when we see manipulative narcissism manipulative I sorry malignant narcissism we seeing people who are often they more they more likely to be aggressive to be violent to be abusive to isolate people from ever being able to get help from being abusive in the workplace. We hear these big, awful workplace abuse stories, a lot, especially a lot in the Me Too era. A lot of those folks are malignant narcissists. Right. So how do you, and Tyler, if we have a whiteboard in there can you bring it one way into the sharpie or with a uh erase dry erase marker because i think we have i think we have a small i think we have a small whiteboard if you find one or see if matt has one um so what happens if you're with a narcissist you you maybe it's been a year you've been dating someone or your your boss didn't seem like it at the beginning but then you're figuring out oh check check check they've got a lot of these things but you're you know the first six months was seemed great or it seemed like it was amazing but now we're seeing the curtain you know pull back and some of these things are coming out and we're not feeling good about the relationship we're in whether it's a working relationship a friendship an intimate relationship we've spotted it yep what i'm hearing you say is there's really no way to change a narcissist no so trying to change them is not going to happen that's a fool's errand so does it mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and and rip the band-aid and get out or how does So it's not that simple, right? We can't walk away from all relationships. People can't just quit their jobs. Let's say a person starts figuring this out five years in a relationship and they're married and they have children. What if it's their family of origin and they're like, I've done my homework and this is actually my parent or my sibling. People say, well, I don't know that I'm willing to cut off from my entire family. So I'm not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you just got to always go. In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism is called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. And I wrote it from that point of view because it's too simplistic to say, well, get up and go. Like you said, rip off the Band-Aid. So if you're – and neither path is easy. But in an ideal world, I will be frank with you. And there's actually an interesting group in Israel that's gathering – has gathered some data on this, on narcissistic abuse. and they found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best outcomes was going no contact, like having no contact with them. Completely blocking, cut you off. Completely done. Because it almost like a toxin right If there a toxic gas the best way to feel better is to eliminate Have no more toxic gas You have a little bit you just going to be feeling a little bit of pain consistently It going to be holding onto it Correct. But a lot of people don't have that. So the biggest, if you're going to have to stay in this relationship, you have to engage in something that I and others have called radical acceptance. This is never going to change. This is who they are. This is who they are. This is it. So, and then I tell people, I have something called the deep technique that I talk about. And the deep technique is when I tell people, if you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So deep, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. And so when they're coming at you, and if you can remember, you really are keeping it tight. It's a lot of, it's like you're in a deposition yes no okay sounds good sure now yeah narcissists don't like that because they're gonna bait you they're gonna bait you and they when i tell you when they bait you they they don't play they go for everything everything that's gonna make something else i'm making stuff up they start making stuff up they go after your friends they draw your friends in it threatening to shame you publicly whatever it is right and so then at some people people take that bait and then the narcissist It's like game on. You know, and they're all in. I got you. I got you. Because when you're fighting, they're fighters. That's what they do. In fact, there was a great research study that came out from Ohio State University, Ohio boy. Yeah. And phenomenal study that came out this year. And over 450 studies they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression. There's nothing soft about this. This is about aggression. They want the fight. They are always a better fighter. And they want the fight, so they bait you. You've got to be made a steal. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain. This is crazy. To not get into the fight. Yeah, I won't speak names here, but in a previous relationship, I remember I learned to let go of jealousy in my 20s. When I was in my teens and 20s, I was jealous. And, you know, if my girlfriend or the person I was dating was with other guys, I just did not handle it. Right. I was, you know, afraid. I was like, oh, what's happening? it was just like jealous. Then I remember a friend of mine was like, you've got to kill the jealousy monster inside of you. This is not serving you and your relationships. If someone cheats you going to find out about it and then you move on or whatever But being jealous about something that not happening It just making you anxious and worried and it hurting you and it hurting the relationship So it took me a while, but I learned in my 30s and in a specific relationship Which was someone who got a lot of male attention. Let's say a lot always And I was never was insecure jealous about I think I was just so confident like Like, you know, whatever. I mean, this person was getting a lot of attention in public and in line or whatever they did. And I was just like, okay. Like, it never bothered me. And I don't know why. I think maybe it's just because I'm older and I'm in maturity. And I was just, I felt so confident. I was like, okay, if they want to go with someone else, go be with them. If I'm not the right fit for you, why would I be jealous and insecure? But it's almost like they always wanted me to react to something. Yes, yes, yes. And I was like, okay, if you want to be with them, go be with them. All right. You know, and I never reacted. And they are always trying to be like, oh, this person took my number today. And I was like, okay, well, what do you want? There's a name for that. And that thing you're talking about is called triangulation. Triangulation. Every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome. You just don't know it. Because they always need that third person in the relationship, whether it's someone gave me the number or someone's noticing me. This person DM me or this person is hitting on me. They're always trying to create that sense of intrigue or the idea that somebody is more into them. Again, it's often them creating the jealousy or they'd be incredibly jealous of their partners. There's a difference between jealousy and pathological jealousy. There's two different things. So jealousy is normal. we are a actually we're a pair bonded species we human beings we are we we we liked we pretty much are about generally normatively have sex with one person people like no that person she already said yeah they were only having sex with them they weren't having sex with you right they were still sexually monogamous with one part they weren't banging you they were banging someone else you were on paper in a relationship with them you came you went to the same home but their sex was someone else okay but we tend to be pair bonded we tend to be monogamous all right so jealousy is a threat to that think of it Darwinian Lee right if I'm in a if I'm in a relationship and a threat comes in, to that. Think of it Darwinian-ly, right? If I'm in a relationship and a threat comes in, right? Normal jealousy is that sort of evolutionary jealousy, right? I'm with a person. If somebody comes in as a threat to that relationship, I've lost the resources and support for our offspring, right? That's all that Darwinian stuff, movie production. Pathological jealousy. Pathological jealousy, though, that starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia and- Oh my gosh. and negative mood states and all that. Jealousy doesn't feel good, but when I've worked with couples, they're like, I'm jealous. I'm like, that's good. That means you still got skin in the game. Because when people, I've been with people, worked with couples or worked with individuals, and they'll say, I'm not even jealous when people notice my husband. I kind of feel sad because I'm like, yeah, this thing's kind of done. I feel like, yeah, I don't feel jealous. I feel like I trust the person I'm with. Yeah, but that's, we're talking about pathological jealousy, right? So I think of my partner. ironically on my drive here he was talking about something and about this woman who i knew we were going to see who had hit on him and this dude is so loyal it levels into a whole new level and i remember thinking in the driver i'm like i got that little funny thing in my tummy okay i i don't like huh he doesn't even live in this country and so i'm thinking that's and i was like that's good that's good that i'm still feeling like i still got a dog in the fight but it doesn't mean you're like i but for days letting it stress you out and like only because we're talking about Yeah, of course. Yeah. And so the paranoia jealousy is some, I mean, that's a narcissist thing. This is paranoid. Yeah. Okay. So I remember in this specific relationship, it was like she would make things up. She'd be like, Oh, this person is hitting on you. And I was like, no, I don't even know this person is. And then we'd just be like used against. And then it was like, well, I'm not speaking to you for a couple of days because you're, you're lying. You must be lying to me. You must not be telling me the truth. I'm like, what it's just like it kept going on and on so yeah if you want to use this if you have any examples next time we have been yeah i think this would be this would be cool to show on youtube people love this yeah um okay so there's a little bit of jealousy is normal means you care um but the path what did you say what's apparent paranoid the pathological jealousy pathological jealousy yeah that's a narcissist that's more of an it's more paranoid it's more antagonistic it's more about you must be doing something you doing so it accusatory it almost delusional oh my gosh Okay There so much that coming up for me And what would you say, again, are the main causes? What are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a narcissist? Is it all trauma-based? No, it's partly trauma. It's also that temperament. It is chaos in the early environment. It's lack of secure attachment. It's overvaluation of the child. They should be the child can do no wrong. And they're so wonderful. I mean, it's interesting. We're about to see something fascinating happen. And I don't know how it's going to go down. We're about to see, because what? Facebook's coming up on 20 years soon, right? We're about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world. Every moment being documented and shared. Since they were born. Since they were born. This is the first time we're going to be seeing this. So I bless the people out there who are going to start collecting this data because we now have, you know, you're going to see what happens if you were, because I had kids way before this. So I did not. The only people saw their pictures were the people I actually put them in an envelope, mailed a picture, kind of thing. Came over to the house and looked at the actual baby. But this is a whole new game for kids who basically were accessories to their parents' lives. Like, look at my child this, look at my child this, look at my child this. Every day there's a new picture. So do you think it's okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children's special moments? Or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they're, whatever, 10 or 12? It's a super interesting area. There's some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this, which is these children aren't consenting to this. Are these children consenting to you showing them have a meltdown? Or, you know, we see all these silly child videos and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness because these things stay evergreen. They didn't agree to that. And as much as we say, oh, no, it's so cute, they didn't consent. It's a vulnerability, right? So there's some, I know some folks in the developmental sphere of psychology saying, oh, this may not be entirely cool. Yeah. Because they're not agreeing. What happens when the kid's 23 and they start going back and seeing all these like things that their mom or dad posted and they're like, huh, that's not really cool. I wish you wouldn't have done that to me. But it goes beyond that because even when the child is young, there's this sense of things are constantly being done to them without them agreeing to it. Posing and put these clothes on and do this and let's post you. Yeah in a public way And then the child also gets this sense of their utility their importance to their parents is their social media persona You look so pretty in your dress You look so cute in your costume. Like you're wondering, are you costuming your child for Halloween for you or for them? Or for the validation online. Yeah, for the validation the parent is getting. Yes, exactly. Man, that's tough because I have friends who never show their kids stuff and then I have friends who do show their kids. and man it's just like yeah how do we how do we navigate that conversation and how do we i think we're building this airplane in the sky oh man and so the challenge becomes then that i would say it's a it's a balancing act between parents talking to each other both parents but also i think there's a larger issue of how much is the child feeling that they're valued, validated for being the kid who poses in social media, right? Because what does every child want? They want their parents' love. Love and attention. All they want is their parents' love and attention. So if they start to recognize that if I'm looking good on social media and mommy's getting validated, then they'll put on the weird thing they want her to wear or do the thing that she wants them to do. But what's not happening is that their interest, what they value, may not be cultivated or everything's a photo op. It's as though the child feels that they're constantly on display versus just having a moment where they're being present and mindful and it doesn't all have to be documented that i'm i've been with this psychologist i'm concerned about when these chickens come home to roost and they're going to what let's say there are there are parents that are posting about their kids online you know maybe they have a small following maybe it's to a private group of their friends and family that's a kind of a different game and and and or that's the ones that have a bigger following. If they were gonna be posting and they have a bigger following, I'd say not to their friends and family. What would be appropriate that you think psychologically in a healthy manner to be able to talk about your family and your kids, is there a healthy way psychologically that's going to not mess them up or, you know? Being present with your children emotionally, being aware of their needs, of not turning them into a performing pony in your circus. Do you know, I mean, again, I say this as the mom of two kids, right? And there are moments when you think, well, this is the day we're gonna take such and such picture Somebody sick someone crying someone has torn their dress someone this and if you get angry at them because they ruined your finally laid plans that child then starts getting that conditional sense of i am only about this person's finally laid plans listen we all do it we all screw up we all do that conditionality to our kids it's almost impossible to not it's it's how quickly we catch ourselves and say that's not what they want this is not this is we're going to Disneyland because they want to go to Disneyland. We're going to the parks. They want to go to the park, not because what a great day for a photo op. Like I've been on vacation and I've watched families like practically, I mean, literally screaming, we need this live hourglass mask card. And I'm like, oh my God. Pay attention, look here. Let them just splash and be sandy and muddy. They're at the beach. And it's that kind of obsessive zeal because all of that social comparison of people wanting to put out the false self and what is narcissism but the false self. We're perfect. Ah, narcissism is the false self. Is the false self, yeah. It's a mask. It's always a mask because it's the mask of what they think the world wants. Oh, right. How the world wants them to look, which is why more and more people are looking the same. They're getting the same cosmetic procedures. They have the same bodies. They're driving the same cars. They're really sort of shills for this sort of artificial mask. That's a narcissist's game. Narcissism's the opposite of authenticity. it's so interesting because um four years ago i wrote a book called the mask of masculinity which is about and i interviewed a lot of psychologists and and um you know experts on uh on these kind of personality traits and these these masks that men wear and i did i wrote about it because i realized i was wearing a mask a couple of different masks for many different years of my life to protect myself to try to fit in to try to be liked and loved by society one of them being like the the athlete mask it's like I always had to win at all costs I needed to be number one and if I ever lost or got second then no one would ever love me so at all costs I was like training and developing myself to be the best athlete I could be and I was a horrible loser I was a sore loser I couldn't handle it I would get angry I would be like moody I would be like frustrated and I'm not good enough I'd beat myself up and train obsessively until I got better And so I could make sure that, you know, I could put myself in a better position athletically. And there's these different masks that men wear and I realized that it's all about trying to fit in. It was all about men trying to fit in a better position athletically. in a better position athletically. And there's these different masks that men wear. And I realized that it's all about trying to fit in. It was all about men trying to fit in and trying to belong. But it's not the authentic self. Correct. And that, I mean, that's maybe we'll have a different day. I'll come in and talk to you about the authentic self because it's such a big conversation. When we look at the work of Carl Rogers, right, the humanistic psychologist and other humanists like Abraham Maslow. So these were the big players in that humanistic universe. This idea of authenticity and self-actualization. So if you're ready to view human growth as a mountain, self-actualization is the summit. It's the top. In my lifetime, I've met five self-actualized people. And it was unforgettable. And they were always older. I think it's hard to self-actualize when you're younger. And they were deeply authentic. I mean, like, you did feel like you were in the face of greatness with them. But some from ordinary. One was a man who was an auto mechanic in Johannesburg. And I was like, I am in the presence of absolute greatness right now. What did that feel like, his experience? It was like absolute serenity. I felt at one with him, at one with the situation. I felt more calmed down. I felt like I could keep listening to him. He was a man with almost no education who, again, he fixed cars in Johannesburg. and actually in a pretty, you know, not in the nicest of surroundings. And he was joy. Like he was just human joy. And it's not because he was laughing, but he was so proud of what, and anyone looking at it, like there's not a lot happening here, but it was this genuine, authentic, like, please come into my, look at my beautiful space. This is my life. And the other person I met who was same thing, joy, and that man, that Johannesburg man I'm still not in touch with, but this other man I am, and he is somebody who had a moment in his life and he decided to devote his life to children and families living in poverty in India and I worked with a school he was working with in India and I remember sitting with him we were kind of actually kind of sitting next to an open sewer and it smelled like an open sewer he's just chilling he's just chilling and I'm like I could have sat there all day and it was hot and there were flies it was uncomfortable and and he was magnificent. And it wasn't just, the mechanic guy wasn't out there saving the world. He was fixing cars. This guy happened to be doing something for a very small community in this village in India right In service yeah But he was in service The other one was not But there was such a congruence between who they were as human beings and how they conducted themselves and how they were in the world. There was no sense of someone has more. I want what they have. Someone's got it better. Why is that happening? How come they got their turn first? And I remember when I think about them, I have the photograph of the gentleman from Johannesburg, this other man I'm still in touch with. And I need that to sort of try to get myself recalibrated to my center. But again, the opposite of narcissism, no mask whatsoever. They were just in themselves. What a life, like what a gorgeous life. You mentioned the deep technique, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. so how do you argue or communicate with a narcissist to get like your point across if you need to get it across uh you don't you don't you can't so the sometimes i tell people okay but do we life is meant to be lived in a beautiful way not with them so that we should just rip the bandage you know i mean not necessarily we can't right so like i said you know i'll give you an example, okay? Narcissistic divorce. Family court and family law is not written around saying narcissistic parents aren't good for kids. So if you're a parenting of the narcissist, we're going to give the other parent full custody. Not happening. State of California, 50-50. All right? Unless somebody doesn't want that. So what happens then is a person says, if I decide to split up from this person, I'm only going to be with my kids 50% of the time. and I don't want them with that influence 50% of the time. So some people will stay. My favorite is when people file for divorce like the day of their youngest child's 18th birthday. I'm like, I know what that was about. You see that happen quite a bit. They literally wait till that day. And then at 18, those kids are free agents. So no one can say you have to be here, you have to stay here, you have to celebrate this holiday with that or anything. They get to call their own shots. So how do you... You just have to have extreme patience, I feel like. It's beyond patience. It's radical acceptance. Patience is endurance. Radical acceptance. This thing sounds exhausting. Is getting it. It is absolutely exhausting. It's just knowing that this isn't going to change. You ever spend time in Chicago I sure you have right Go to Chicago It February in Chicago Oh it miserable Are you you gonna go for a run in just your shorts and no shirt no unless you crazy okay why because in February in Chicago it cold radical acceptance yeah so you just accept it right if your window is facing east and you don't want the sun to wake you up get curtains radical acceptance you cannot talk to an artist so I tell people there's like another concept I use is something called true north. Sometimes you have to get into the argument. True north are those things that you're going to fight for because they're important to your core values, so who you are. For some folks, it's their kids. For some people, it may be a cause they believe in or a belief they have or they will not listen to a prejudicial language. True north gets activated and they'll say, I'm taking the fight. They pull off the gloves, they pull out the earrings, and then they're in. They're just, they'll go at it. It is exhausting. Nothing good happens. Nothing good happens, right? But at least they can say, I took the fight, Dr. Romney, so I could live with myself. Right. To know that I fought for my kids. I stood up for what I wanted, yeah. I stood up, but do not get into the fight about the dishwasher or, you know, why were you late to the party or why were you rude to my sister or whatever. I mean, if you keep taking every fight, it's exhausting. The minute you let go, you know what happens though when a person finally gives up, they're overwhelmed with grief. They're like, there's nothing here. There's nothing to talk about. I can't tell them good news because they make fun of it or they dismiss it. I can't tell them bad news because they get really angry and rageful. So all we can really talk about is the weather. I'm like, uh-huh. Dead. But that's, I mean, what do you do with the rest of your time? You cultivate other stuff in your life, interests. Can you love a narcissist or is it impossible to love a narcissist? That's a subjective question, right? Love is such a complicated word. It means something different to you. It means something different to me. It means different things to the people out in the street. So the, and that's the bigger question I often get is can a narcissist love? Is that possible? It depends. Besides loving themselves. What is cold to you, right? You're in short sleeves. I'm in a sweater. Yeah. You know, so it's a subjective word. So can a, lots of people love narcissists. They do. They're like, I love this person. I, they represent something to me. And maybe this is where it starts getting to a philosophical question. Maybe when we love someone, it is very representational. We love what they stand for. We love what we believe they are But we don know maybe we never know someone enough to love them So again that a philosophical conversation When it comes down to it there are people out there who will say I do parents are a great example. People have narcissistic parents. They're like, I love my mother or I love my father. I can't stand them. Sure. But love is much more metaphysical. Yeah, of course. What's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist? That they love themselves. They don't love themselves. Oh, hell no. It's self-loathing. This is a disorder of self-loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity. They hate themselves. But then they put it on other people. They put it, project it onto other people. You're a horrible, lying, disgusting person. You make me sick. Oh my gosh. They're talking about themselves. Oh my gosh. Sometimes you just want to give them a hug. So narcissists are miserable. miserable miserable miserable it's awful it's i actually say that the compassion we can find in ourselves is people like i want to get revenge on them i say you don't have to they have to keep being them they have to live with it the universe wins on that one like they have to keep being them it is a imagine every day you're comparing yourself to everyone you're thinking they have that and they have that how come i don't have this and how come this and they're constantly anxious They're constantly angry. They constantly feel like a victim. They feel like everyone is out to get them That's a very difficult way to live the nervous system must be always heightened to kind of kind of yeah different than their psychopathic cousins They're obviously feeling yeah. Yeah, but narcissists really really It's in a very uncomfortable way to live because you always feel like they always feel like they're getting the short end of the stick Mm. And so what are the signs then if you're a kid and you've thought one thing about your parents, but all of a sudden you're starting to see like, oh, maybe they might have a parent who's narcissistic. What would you say are the main signs if a parent for a kid would be narcissistic? Let's say a child is anyone under 13. I don't even think kids start understanding that their parents are messed up until they're around middle school or high school. Selfishness, inattentiveness, real inattentiveness. Dismissiveness. Dismissiveness, devaluation of their emotions, shaming them, humiliating them, expecting them to be like them, devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. What do you mean you don't want to go to Harvard? Or like, ugh, expecting them to be like them, devaluing them if they don't shaming them, humiliating them, expecting them to be like them, devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. What do you mean you don't want to go to Harvard? Or like, oh, you want to go to that college? Like any kind of contemptuous dismissiveness of their children, that's all narcissistic parent behavior. Wow. Rage. Rage is a big one. And I think that's probably the one my clients have brought. Anger. Anger, but rage. Like that, walking on eggshells. If anyone says to me, I felt like I was always walking on eggshells around my parent and probably dealing with an antagonistic or narcissistic parent. Yeah, I think I was telling you beforehand, I felt that for a part of my life and then things started to shift. But I've definitely walked in eggshells for many relationships in the past, which makes me be like, why did I jump into different relationships where I felt that way? Which maybe I hadn't learned to heal the past yet or I hadn't learned to... But you didn't jump into a relationship where you walked in eggshells. I didn't feel that in the beginning. You didn't feel it at the beginning. But it was like six to 12 months later when I was like- Then I justified, oh, let's just get back to where it was. One of the great, I would say your greatest vulnerability, quite frankly, to narcissistic relationships is your history as an athlete. Athletes are actually at not only great risk of being narcissistic, but for falling for narcissists. Why is that? And a lot of that is because for any gifted athlete, all you needed to do was work harder. You just had to go to the gym or had to run or do whatever. Whatever it was you needed to do, it just meant more reps. There was always a way to make it better. You're going to do the Sunday workout. You're going to go to the gym at four in the morning. Five is it. Right? And so the more in you had this belief, you got better and you were in control. So the belief is you could extend that to anyone. I just got to talk to them harder. I'm going to be more clear. I'm going to make this work. More loving, more present, more giving. Everything becomes a workout. Oh, my gosh. This is what I did in the last 10 years, in every relationship the last 10 years. And I remember just being like, it never felt enough. And it was always draining. Correct. It was never enough what I gave. There was always something wrong with me. There was always something to pick at. Yep. And they never wanted to go to therapy with me. It was funny because I was like, what meant, you know, I don't want to generalize, but I was like, I'm a guy who wants to go to therapy and get feedback from my, like, I'm not perfect. Give me feedback. Tell me how to improve because I'm an athlete. And I'm like, I want to improve. And they never wanted to I was just like I think women would kill for this you know for a guy who wanted to go to therapy with them Not a narcissistic woman Oh my gosh But that idea of surrender is kind of actually the opposite of what an athlete is conditioned to become right And that's really the core of the narcissistic relationship. It's a sense of surrender. I'm not engaging with this. I'm not doing this. It doesn't work. And then you just fold it and step away. No, it was more like, I want to make this work. Exactly. What can I do to make it better? How can I improve? Tell me what I can do. I'm here. I'll support, I'll do this. And then it just, it drains your energy. Athletes, entrepreneurs are at risk. Anyone who's a doer and it's worked for them, they're screwed. It wasn't until I really started lifting the veil with my therapist, Arsabat, is like I started to really realize like, okay, I don't need to keep working, working, working. You talked about this in one of your recent videos, like the marriage and relationships should be hard work is kind of the narrative. And when I realized like it shouldn't feel like, it should feel like commitment that there's attention and presence but it shouldn't feel like this draining hard work no otherwise otherwise i'd rather be single if that's the way it is exactly and i think that that and i have to tell you a lot of people have had a lot of harm done to them in therapy where therapists say to them it's hard work relationship for hard work no no no no no it's not i mean yeah maybe having to say no like having to sit through a football game you don't want to watch i don't know that this is hard work like because they sat and watch your french film with you it's just an uncomfortable moment. I'm just going to read my book while you watch your football game. I guess we're good. Yeah, that's fine. I can show up for a few hours. That's not hard work. Yeah. Hard, you know, and the other person's kind, right? Again, every healthy relationship, every healthy relationship has the same core ingredients. Kindness, compassion, patience, mutuality of regard, reciprocity, respect. Yeah. Every single one. And as long as you got that. Flexibility. Flexibility. Flexibility. No narcissistic relationship has even one of those ingredients. That's why they don't work. They don't work So yeah They're always going to be hard work because you have not one of the essential ingredients Like you're trying to make a bake a cake without flour eggs or sugar. Good luck with that. Oh My gosh, this is just bringing me back to someone so many realizations How do you know when you're entering a new relationship if the person is not a narcissist? Like maybe you've been in a narcissistic relationship where your parent was or whatever it is and you have some PTS from those experiences and you feel like well I supposed to be walking on eggshells but i don need to it kind of healthy like is the shoe gonna drop like when you know the person isn't a narcissist how long does that take to find out about the same amount of time it takes to discover that they are in the sense that the difference is narcissists actually there's red flags right i call these green flags green flags mean go and green flags are things like watch the person watch how the person behaves under conditions of stress so let's say that you're running late to the airport great because that's a great example of a stress right how are they acting and are they you know they're saying oh i'm a little worried about this but we're gonna make it work and listen what's the words is gonna happen we'll get rebooked and they're calm and like you know listen i'm just glad to be here with you like we'll figure it out to make the most of the moment yeah we'll go to an airport hotel if we have to but we're gonna be fine i'm narcissist when they're running late to the airport? Oh, oh no, no, no, no. What happens? And it just, it's just, I'm not going to curse, right? But it's chaos, stress, accusations. This is your fault. Entitlement. Let me speak to the manager. Get me on that plane. Get that plane back to the gate. Oh my gosh. Like that's the narcissist, right? Whereas with somebody, you watch them. And it doesn't have to be something as dramatic as the airport. It could be even something like, hey, I noticed you've been working late. How about I make some dinner? So it's the noticing. It's the presence. It's the mindfulness. It's the willingness to be flexible and make compromise when it's needed, to meet you halfway, to listen to you. And more than anything is to also see the growth potential in you, so not to be threatened by your own success. So if you go up to this person and you're like, hey, you know what? I got this totally cool new opportunity. And the healthy person says, that is amazing. You have worked your whole life. I saw this in you. What can we do to make this work for you? Whereas everybody else, not just narcissists, but insecure people will say, oh, I guess that's just going to mean more time away. And you're going to be traveling a lot. There's going to be a lot of women on the road. And you're like, oh my gosh, they just got the job of their dreams. And that's the key. And I'm a big believer that, you know, there's actually something in work. I'm going a little off topic, but you're an off topic guy, you can handle it. There's something called the Michelangelo phenomenon, and it's a big relationship theory. Is there a graph for this? No I was gonna say I wanna use the chart I start trying the Sistine Chart At some point I want to use this So the Michelangelo phenomenon is this idea that the one person in the relationship sees the absolute potential in the other in such a way that they say what do we need to do to get you to your dream Like, do we need to, should we, like, should we take a second on the house? Should we cut back? You know, should we move closer in? Like because I see or you know what can be as simple as they eat a cake that their partner made and said, okay, this is the best cake I've ever had. Have you ever thought of making this into a business? Or a partner of yours might have said, you asked the most amazing questions. You need a podcast. Like it's seeing that something bigger in the person. That's a good thing. That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. That's everything. That's a good thing. It's the best thing. And very few relationships get that because what you've got to do is that person who's saying, go be your best you is secure enough to say, I'm not going to lose you. Like I see all the good in you. And I want the best for you. And I want the best for you. And I believe in you. And I'm here with you. And that might even mean the person encouraging you might have to make sacrifice. Things like, you know, I know that you're going to have to go take this course for six months and I may not see you. And that's OK because this is our future together. That's the Michelangelo phenomenon never what's the opposite narcissistic relationship? because I Yeah, I think I've I'm just having so many realizations here, but I am In in the previous I would say ten years of my relationships, I think I was just really good at choosing Specific people because I was always like I always saw the masterpiece I said I said you're a masterpiece and I can see what's possible for you with all these skills and gifts but there was like some insecurities with some of them, not all of them, and they never were able to see it within themselves. They weren't able to see it. And then I remember when I would accomplish something big in some of these relationships, not all of them, it was almost like they would get depressed or sad and say, oh, and then make it about what they're lacking and what they don't have and wanting to put their intention back on them. I remember I got an email for a year. I was training to become, to make the USA national team. Was a dream of mine, to go to the Olympics and make the USA national team for a sport called team handball. It's a big sport in Europe, not that big in USA. I remember getting an email team was a dream of mine to go to the Olympics and make the USA national team for a sport called team was a dream of mine to go to the Olympics and make the USA national team for a sport called team handball which is a big sport in Europe not that big in USA I remember getting an email and literally almost in tears that I was selected for the USA team and it was just like a dream for for a couple years of a journey this was 10 years ago and I remember I showed her my girlfriend at the time I go I just got called up on the national team and I'm like getting kind of emotional just chills now back in that moment and she didn't congratulate me she just kind of went back into god i wish i was doing what i wanted to do and i wish there's this and i was just like what bingo right there just okay well yeah let me come back and help you i kind of put my attention back on like you know you're gonna get these things going and you know i'm here for you but it's like this diminishing i had this happen at one of my big events one time i host this annual event called the summit of greatness and a relationship out of the time made it all about them at the event that I wasn't there for them because the attention was on me and people were coming up to me and I was like this is something I've been working all year to host and then I said you know what let me pause in my event for two hours to give the attention to this person and I and I was always trying to see the masterpiece but it's like I don't know I'm like you're having so many realizations for me right yeah I mean but that's the idea that that ego and it's interesting not Not everyone who's not capable of this sort of Michelangelo phenomenon in a relationship is a narcissist by any stretch. They may just have more of the low-grade insecurity that so many people are plagued by. Right? So all insecurity doesn't mean narcissism. Right? Insecurity paired with all this entitlement and lack of empathy and all of that is the problem. And so it's so unfortunate because it is there then you get... We're talking about self-actualization for the individual. I think there can even be actualization in relationships where two people, they really see they see the greatness in each other it can't just be you the only one seeing the masterpiece they have to see the masterpiece in you well because it's just draining yeah if it's just one person right it's also a mirror that's not reflecting back at you oh yeah man this is crazy so what i'm hearing you say the ultimate experiment in a relationship is when both parties are seeing the masterpiece in each other and supportive of each other. And when one is succeeding, the person I'm with right now, she's incredible, she's just a walking success. Everything she does is just successful I so happy for her I want her to succeed I like this is amazing Let celebrate you And she happy for you She happy for me It has to be a two street She's like, you're crazy. She admires the work I'm doing. She admires the mission we're on to help people. And she's like, what can I do to support you? It feels interesting. I mean, it feels beautiful. It is beautiful. I mean, that's the key though, because that ability to sort of co like and again to have that that um that co-located growth that michelangelo if you will you're in essence you're you're realizing the statue from the raw piece of marble every day and you're both sculpting that for the other it's beautiful you know but that's again no narcissistic relationship is like that and with a narcissistic relationship it's really the them show like everyone is just sort of in the audience watching them and celebrating them they can so they can be the only great one in a relationship. Really? Yeah. So is it possible that two narcissists would be in a relationship together? I actually love when that happens, so it kind of gets a lot of water supply for everybody else. Oh my God. Because they're both miserable. They're like perfect for each other. Here's what it is. They're very volatile relationships. They're very superficial relationships. A lot of people who are power couples, that's sometimes what you're seeing, like this kind of, they're all about the, they're only about the aspiration. They're not about the empathy. But in any relationship of two narcissists, as soon as somebody doesn't stay in their lane. So let's say one classical trope of two narcissists in a relationship. One partner, very wealthy, very powerful, very successful. The other one, very beautiful, looks good, goes places with this one, looks good with them. It all looks good together, right? Compliment each other. Ish, compliment's a strong word. the first time this one though might look someplace else because this one's a narcissist person this person the powerful one it's narcissistic may notice someone else this person gonna blow up because they're they're doing their beautiful thing full time and they're like how can someone be more you're not looking at me obsessive then not giving all the attention lots of jealousy lots of volatility lots of meaning lots of egocentricity lots of on social media it's like I'm so blessed, hashtag love my person, hashtag best relationship ever. I mean, I laugh when I see that, because I'm like, ooh, yeah, there we go. You know, another super narcissistic relationship where it's all about advertising the relationship. But it very superficial very volatile no empathy There no depth to the intimacy It almost transactional that that what happens when two narcissists get together I honestly would be fine with all the narcissists pairing up like Noah's Ark, as long as none of them have kids. Because that's a real mess. You're a mess. You're traumatized. It's a really empty way to grow up. Those kids that grow up, they either become incredibly anxious as adults or they become narcissistic as adults. It's not a good look. I don't know if I'm inspired by this conversation or depressed. What's the percentage of people in the world who are narcissists? Do we have that even? Okay. So here's where it gets interesting. So let's start with something we haven't talked about yet. So give me a way to talk about this. A lot of people use the term narcissistic personality disorder. I actually think it's phenomenal that you haven't been using it because it's a mistake to use that languaging. And I'll tell you why. Narcissistic personality disorder. Okay. NPD. So lots of people out there will say, oh, I'm in this relationship where I've got this and they have narcissistic personality disorder. I'm always like, slow down, sister. Okay. Because narcissistic personality disorder, like all diagnoses, require a full workup, a lengthy clinical interview. It even takes me, I'm very honest with you, if I have a client in my office, it usually takes me four to six sessions to be confident that that's what I'm dealing with, with a disorder. Because you could have narcissistic personality traits. Correct. It's different than a disorder. It's very different. And it gets into the weeds in terms of diagnostic stuff you don't want to- It could be more like when I'm triggered, I have narcissistic traits as opposed to- It's more complex than that because it's that in order to give someone a diagnosis and the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the DSM, in order to give someone a diagnosis, that person who is showing the symptoms has to either be uncomfortable themselves, like we call it subjective distress. So depressed people are like, they're like, I'm miserable. I can't, I'm miserable. I'm sad all the time. I can't get out of bed. That's subjective distress. Or they have to have something called social and occupational impairment, meaning that the symptoms are getting in the way of their lives in a way that they're aware of, right? It's causing problems for them. Where this gets dicey with narcissistic personality is that, first of all, a lot of narcissists are on top of the world. They think their lives are great They walk around saying I the one I the guy I the one I the best Look how great I am I got money I got success I got the girl Whatever it is it working for me So everything working for them So that no subjective distress No. Social and occupational impairment. Now, in some cases, they may be having trouble at work. And then, yeah, sure, they'll meet that criterion. But for a lot of folks just walking around in the street, they're making bank at work. They got a partner and a side piece. Like everything's working out for them. So they don't even think they're having that impairment, but what they're doing is they're blowing up other people's lives. We as therapists cannot issue a diagnosis of social, we can't say that they have social and occupational impairment because someone else is bothered by them. Make sense? It has to be that the person is saying, I'm not going to work on time or I got a DUI. Those are examples of social and occupational impairment or behavioral impairment. I personally think they need to get rid of the diagnosis. I think it's worth nothing. It's a diagnosis with no treatment. So why would you have a disease that you can't treat? There's no point to that. So let's, okay, so now let's go to the numbers because the epidemiological studies are studies that tell us the number of people or the percentage of people who have a given mental illness, a given disorder. So the epidemiology statistics on narcissistic personality disorder, put the rate somewhere between one and six percent. Okay. That's people who are diagnosed with a disorder. Diagnosed with this. Okay. So they've gone into research studies. But most people aren't diagnosed because they would never come in and do these sessions. So the million dollar question. How many do you think it is? This is my number. This is the Dr. Romney number. Okay. I'm going with 20 to 25 percent. Oh, of the world or of the US? The world. 1 in 5 to 1 in 4. You think it's narcissistic? 1 in 5 is probably, and I'm saying adults. Let's take the kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay? So 18 and above, 20%. That would make it 1 in 5. And I would tell you in a major metro like L.A., I'm going to 25%. I think that just the pressures of the city, especially New York, L.A., L.A. being an entertainment city, the nature that sort of the, it's a company town. And the business of the town is very superficial and very validation seeking. So I'd say 25% here. So that's one in five. So buddy if you know five people one of them is narcissistic When you know someone is not a narcissist what are the the qualities that they possess The real quality it's it's empathy When you know someone is not a narcissist, what are the qualities that they possess, When you know someone is not a narcissist, what are the qualities that they possess, the real qualities? It's empathy, kindness, respect, flexibility, self-awareness, the capacity to reflect on their impact on other people, emotional regulation, managing... This is more of the emotional regulation, like managing negative states like frustration and disappointment, genuine curiosity about others, setting goals from an internal space rather than what they think the world expects of them. That's a good one, yeah. Having a strong sense of identity, a sense of who they are, having a solid sense of values, conscientiousness, agreeableness. These are the things that make a person not narcissistic. It's nice to be around those type of people. Oh, they're so good. And I feel blessed. I have a fair number of those in my life. But I'm very careful. I curate my world the way some people curate their closets. Like I don't, and I've made the mistake, because recently this year I've let more than a few in. So it happens. You've let narcissistic friends in. Yeah. I'm getting, you know, and I got to tell you, it just means that people who've been through what's called narcissistic abuse or all the negative psychological impacts of being in a narcissistic relationship. One thing I work with people on is just narrowing their social world. Like it's, it's unfortunately a one in five. What are the odds? Right. They're pretty darn good. You date five people. one of them and depending on what swimming pool you're pulling these people out of it could be one in three oh my gosh so many memories um i wonder yeah this is for a whole another conversation off camera about why i think i attracted some of these things um this is fascinating what um so even you you attracted people in your life hundred percent and i know what my vulnerabilities are. I'm very aware of it. What are they? My personal vulnerabilities are things like I devalue myself. I feel like I'm not enough. I pity people kind of easily. And so narcissists actually are pitiful people. And that pity can sometimes drive me to say maybe I should try harder So at this point in my life I closed off in a way that actually sometimes makes me feel guilty And I like yeah if that the price of poker I good Like I don't, I've been through too many times at this rodeo that I don't want to do it. So it's definitely my own lack of valuing of myself is what's made me vulnerable to narcissism. If I boiled it down to one simple thing is that I feel like I'm not good enough because I feel like I'm not good enough. I let those kinds of people in. So what I found, unfortunately, is that it's just better off to close the gates and not let anyone in. Unfortunately, yeah, that's kind of the downstream effect. Or, I mean, would you say the greatest defense against attracting narcissism is to fully love yourself? It's to fully love yourself, to be deeply authentic. I consider myself authentic-ish, authentic adjacent. But I know I've got a ways to go because I still struggle with the monkey on my back of feeling like I'm not enough kind of thing. Yeah. And I know that. And that's my work in my own therapy on that consistently. But I know where my barriers are. So anything that pings that, it's great. It's interesting. I've got my staff is fantastic. I mean, and they're much younger than me. That's what's so remarkable about it. They actually act like guard dogs. That's great. They're like, we feel like one's coming. No. And I'll be like, I kind of feel bad for them. I'm like, good for you. Go feel bad in another room. We're not letting them in. So they're, I mean, these two are gangster. I mean, they're the two most amazing young women. Yeah. So what's the key to learning how to love ourselves fully so that we don't, so that when we see someone coming in, we just say, no, we're okay. We don't need to let you into our life. So let's go back to the Carl Rogers, the humanist I was talking about before. It's to lift the conditions of worth from our lives, that we are lovable and cherishable simply because we are. I mean, if we could get totally into a different conversation about we're all made of energy. Who judges energy, right? Like, you know, we're all lovable because we're the stuff of life, you know, and that makes us beautiful and lovable. Who said this? Carl Rogers talks about conditions of worth. Dr. Romany says, and many others I do believe say, we're energy, like who judges energy? It's like judging the sun. I guess we do, like we wear sunscreen. You're right, right, right. But you know what I mean, like it's a, these conditions of worth like whatever people say to themselves I not attractive enough I not smart enough I not rich enough I not accomplished enough I not this enough I not that enough those conditions of worth I would be lovable if As soon as you put love and if in the same sentence, you're screwed. So it's very much like dropping all that and saying you're lovable because you are. Everyone is lovable. Everyone is cherishable. All of us, not because somebody's more beautiful or somebody's more famous or somebody's more attractive it's not or rich or something like that but it's hard because we're given the message of you're better if you look this way act this way do this way live here drive this it's it's a lot to break out of and so I think that um and those narratives even go deeper than materialism it's almost like as a kid many kids were were taught were they almost felt like you grow up with a parent who's not attentive in any way or not interested of why I'm not they're not paying attention because I'm not interesting I'm not enough and I get attention when I sell in something that they like and so let me do more of that to get more attention exactly and if I lose at that then they're not going to love me that's exactly right so it all becomes like people think like if I do these things and I can be loved rather than you're just lovable and so that's the um that's where people most people lose the plot And I think the other piece is people don't understand narcissism. I think that a lot of people say, oh, come on, everyone can change. Or some, I just got to get to know them better. Or they don't really mean that. We enable it. We justify it. But if people really got to learn like, no, that's unacceptable. That tantrum they just threw, not OK. That entitled behavior, not OK. I honestly get to the point where I don't care why they're behaving like this. They're behaving like this. So how do you create boundaries with a narcissist? It's not easy. I mean, I think that the narcissistic people, the key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early, set boundaries early, because then they get disinterested and they walk away. You're not an easy mark anymore. Right. So charm and charisma come walking in the door. I think I'm the only person in the world who's telling people, if you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Like, get away from them. This is dangerous. But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic? Yeah, but I'm like, I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater at this point. Right, right, right, yeah. Just fall out. So it a because charming charismatic people I would say then always make sure they have humility There you go If you have the humility back That the unicorn That's the unicorn. That's when you're like, they're charming and they're humble. They're all that. They're incredible. And they're like, listen, you know, I'm great. Can you just tell me about you a little bit? Talk a little bit about you. There's a humility. That's a keeper in your life. Yeah, that's a keeper. Or you can see how they're talking to other people, their interest in other people. They're not talking down to people maybe because, let's say, they're in a service position that evening, right? That they're not, and not in a smarmy, like, oh, the server's my best friend. But, like, they're not like that. It's none of that. It's really like, oh, let me wait for the server to come along and see if I can get or whatever. They're just really, they're present in a situation. They're not elitist. They're not status conscious. that kind of humility you know that they don't brag you know that they're all that and they're not going on about how all that that they are that's cool they're not talking about oh let me tell you about my new this and my new that and this accomplishment and my no they're they're just they're actually able to be with you be present with you it's rare because again people who are that hyped up they're hyped up from all sides you have to be really resistant authentic self-actualized to not to not drink the kool-aid yeah what else do we need to know about narcissists is there anything else you think that's important for us i think that um one in five of your friends is a narcissist i mean again if we're using this number of 20 okay which i don't think is a bad number to be honest with you i think that just in i mean it's it's a spitball number and it's it's just sort of boiled up in this world, and it may be a fervent myth. I don't know. It's hard to get good data on this, right? You know, the assessment of narcissism is one of the hardest things in the business of measurement and psychology, because who's going to be honest about it, right? There's all these backdoors we try to do to figure it out. But I'd say the other things, let's talk a little bit about what happens to a person who's been in a relationship with a narcissist. Because I think that we've been talking, we've been so much focused on the narcissist, the question is, what if I've just been through this? Is there a sense of PTSD that you're going to face? A lot of PTSD. You'll see it's a, there's confusion, self-doubt, a sense of powerlessness, helplessness, sometimes even hopelessness, anxiety, a lack of powerlessness helplessness sometimes even hopelessness anxiety a lack of self-doubt a sense of powerlessness helplessness sometimes even hopelessness anxiety a lack of not feeling motivated anymore sort of sense of like i can't be bothered with life rumination regret yeah something we call euphoric recall you remember the good parts of the relationship and say why can't we have that part again i'm like well no because that part wasn't really wasn't real it was like this explosive um it's with people have physical symptoms they have trouble sleeping because of the rumination. They might find themselves engaging in less behaviors that are involved, like self-care behaviors, we call them, like things like working out or eating well or even taking their medications on time. They just almost let themselves go because being in these relationships is just basically like completely being overwhelmed by them. So people aren't in good shape when they're coming out of these relationships. Because they'll start beating themselves up. How could I stay in this? What was I thinking? Well, that's the worst part. It's the self-blame and the self-shame because the self-blame is this is my fault. I'm the one who stayed. I should have known. I'm a fool. And then a lot of people go back. Why? Right. So here, why? Because they think, let's talk a little bit. I want my whiteboard. Yes. I got to use the whiteboard. So let's talk about the narcissistic relationship cycle. Okay. Step one is something called, I'll write it down. I'll lift it up. Love bombing. Okay. Love bombing is that big, seductive, exciting experience that happens early in a relationship. We have a magical connection. Let's have a picnic on the beach. Wild and crazy sex. Texting for 12 hours straight. Good morning, princess. Good night, my darling. Let's take a vacation for our third date. I want you to meet all my friends. I'm so into you. Let's move in after a month. My lease is up love bombing. It's exciting. It's intoxicating It's seductive and what it does it's a narcissist ground game That's how they're able to get you to not notice all the red flies because you're so focused on the ten dozen roses on your doorstep That you're like getting or the unreal sex you're having or these amazing like constantly being these text messages or being going to San Francisco on your fourth date, you know, and you're thinking like like okay red flags What red flags I having my fairy tale This is incredible yeah The minute the narcissist knows they got you when you kind of let down your guard because some people are like this seems too good to be true and then they're like okay i love you too i i'm boom that's the day something called devaluing starts okay now devaluing is characterized by invalidation little digs like um oh gosh you know my ex-girlfriend could cook um or oh my you know it's like the digs it's it's little it's subtle you're like how where did this go like where's where's this because it's not feeling so good and people in devaluing are confused as heck they're thinking how do i get back here now they start blaming themselves because it was this now it's this it must be me oh my gosh now then i just feel like you're going through my life right now okay we go to something called the discard now the discard is not always a breakup is this is this where like they won't speak to you for two weeks the silent treatment it's the um it's the deeper level manipulation it could be infidelity it could be significant lying it could be um even sometimes even the other person leaves the relationship at this point like the not narcissistic person literally. Like, I'm out. I'm out. I can't do this. And then comes a phase. Oh, my gosh. Called, I'm going to write it and then unveil it to you. Yes, yes. Very love-bombing of me. Hoovering. Hoovering is when the narcissist tries to suck you back in. They don't like to lose. And in the majority of cases, once after the discard, you're gone. Try to woo you back. Try to woo you back. Love-bombing part two. Now, love bombing part two is never as heavy as love bombing part one. It's always love bombing light the second time around. But it'll be like, maybe what was I thinking? You're the best thing that ever happened to me. This could be because they cheated on you. And they say things like, you're so much better. And you know what? People fall for that because that's that triangulation dynamic, that idea, very edible, that you're the favored child, that you're the favored one. And the hoovering is- Choosing you. Then in the part of the hoovering is a dynamic called, you're going to love this one, is my guess after the way you been putting Future Future faking Okay Future faking is no as soon as this deadline is done we going to or i going to get therapy or i know let just put it off for another six months for sure i'm going to do it then they keep moving the goalposts and future faking is what keeps people in the game because they're like they're promising six months we're gonna have kids we're gonna have kids yeah for sure you know like i just need to get my career established and now you're 50 and you don't have kids or we're gonna you know we're gonna definitely move closer to your parents i know we had talked about moving back there and i know you said there's some better opportunities for you years you're waiting or i'm gonna get into therapy i'm gonna work on these anger issues and then if you push it god you know what you're really impatient you're like you are not a nice person just see what i'm going through my life and i need time and yeah that's the cycle of every narcissistic relationship Not everybody gets hoovered, okay? Sometimes the narcissist moves into something else and then they're done. So people sometimes feel bad if they're not hoovered. They're like, oh, what's wrong with me? It doesn't always happen and consider yourself lucky. I always say the lucky are not hoovered because then it goes back to, the cycle goes again and again and again. So what is hoovering again? Hoovering is when they try to woo you back in, suck you back in. Oh, they bring you back in. And they'll do that if, let's say, they're the one who left you, okay? and you finally start getting your life in order and maybe you're dating someone else and they find out that's when they want you back. They just want to mess your stuff up. Or you're in a good place. They don't want you happy. You've got a job you want. They don't want you happy. They don't like losing. And they don't like the idea of anyone else winning. It's all about domination. Oh my gosh. Okay. So I tell people like, maybe you could get a good trip to San Francisco and a couple of flowers and get out. And then get out. Like before you get in too deep. But if that happens where they'll give you like a month or six weeks or two months of love bombing on you and then you're like, you know what? They're going to get mad. I'm not in the right place. This isn't for me. Like it's not you. It's me. I'm not ready. They're going to get mad. They're going to get mad. So either way, once you get in, once you go on the first weekend love bomb extravaganza, you're. You're kind of sunk. Yeah. Cause and they're, they actually. You need to get out then. Yeah. They want to get out. You want to get out the first weekend. You want to get out. Listen, here's an interesting tell on narcissistic people. And it applies more in LA than in a place like New York. They drive really badly. They drive dangerously. They cut people off and they come up on their bumpers and they cut people off on the freeway And that actually been documented in that it so a narcissist is a bad driver a driver dangerous driver not bad not like dumb driver fast cut people off Hong Kong road yeji driver yeah oh my god use the whiteboard I like it any else we should use on there you got another grab or a diagram I love this stuff I love this this is fascinating anything else we should talk about about last thing yes give to me gaslighting oh i wanted to ask that i had a okay so gaslighting's the word of our time and if nothing else i want your podcast is so amazing that i want to make sure that people get things right here so what is gaslighting gaslighting is the denial of a person's reality and the taking a part of another person so that they have completely not only given up on their reality, they've given up on themselves. So let me say that in a little bit more of a clear way. Gaslighting is a grooming process. It's not a one-off, right? So let's say a day like today, we'd set up our shoot and everything. And I would say, and we had our time, we were going to meet the date. And I said, you never said we're meeting on that day. And you'd be like, what? And then you go back to your email and say, no, it's right there, right? But for a minute, you might have doubted yourself. I don't have that much power to gaslight you because we don't really know each other. Maybe you trust me a little, but it would be enough to throw you off for a minute and say, did I not send that email right? And you catch yourself, okay? The reason it's called a grooming process is it happens over and over again. I never said that. I never did that. You're being too sensitive. Stop making such a big deal about that. You really aren't committed to this relationship and they keep saying things to you that are not your reality so what do people do when they're gaslighted initially they defend themselves no no you did you really did like you said that or i i'm not being too sensitive like and now you're getting more and more and more worked up right yeah and then you know they'll say things to you like oh yikes somebody is a little bit crazy like have you seen a therapist so now what are they doing not only they doubted your reality and you're a little off balance, then boom, they close it by saying there's something wrong with you. Oh, man. And you start believing it. Oh, wow. Many people are gaslighted, will start wondering, maybe I'm the narcissist, maybe I have a mental illness, maybe I need to narcissist, maybe I have a mental Many people are gaslighted, will start wondering, maybe I'm the narcissist, maybe I have a mental illness, maybe I need to get help, there's something wrong with me. And at that point, the gaslighter fully controls this person. Oh my gosh. That's the process. And so, but initially, the person who's being gaslighted has some level of trust in the gaslighter. Maybe they're in a new relationship together. Maybe this is a family member. Maybe it's a boss or a respected colleague. You've got to have a little of that from the jump. There has to be some skin in the game for someone to be able to gaslight someone. Then they're groomed. Now, let's say the first time someone gaslights you, say, no, here's the email. This is the time you said we're meeting, and don't ever do that to me again. The gaslighter's probably going to move on to a new target. Ooh, they'll stop with you. Yeah, because, yeah, so they'll say, like, this is not a fertile target. I'm going to move on to another one, right? So early on, when a person says you're being too sensitive, say, no, That's my emotion. Don't you dare play judge and jury on my emotions. I'm sad right now. I'm going to stick with that. That's a good one. That's what I'm talking about. That's a good one. And then the gaslighter will probably lose interest. But they'll always get their last dig in. They'll say, she's just a really difficult person. So they'll still have to get their parting shot and say, I'll wear that as a badge of honor. But look how solid you have to be in yourself and understand gaslighting. In fact, I'm doing a gaslighting seminar on Saturday. literally three hours all gaslighting because that's how much people are confused by this it happens at work it happens in families it happens in relationships it happens from the world at large like no every everyone can every the playing field's equal and then the people like it can't be equal because like so the first lighting the first time you feel like someone's gaslighting you what should you say without them saying because i feel like this happened to me in a previous relationship where I'd be like, no, I never said that. And then it was like they'd bring up three other things that were unrelated to try to confuse and be like, well, this, this, this, this. And I'd be like, just focus on the one thing we're talking about. And so I have to go around all these other things and talk about them where I forget what we were talking about in the first place. That's gaslighting. That all that deflection. It's very exhausting. It's like, let's just focus on this thing. So a great example, a gaslighting thing that people will do is they will say something like in a relationship and you know I really uncomfortable with how much time you been spending with that person and there been a lot of communication between the two of you like it doesn feel good I didn feel good to me this feels shady it feels like a boundary violation like this isn't okay they'll hit back with let's go back to when you were in college and you and you're like wait and then you know what I tell people have a whiteboard say okay I'm I'm going to table that. We'll get to that. Let's write that down. I don't want us to not talk about it. Let's go back to the original issue. So keep going back to the original thing. Go back to the original issue. Until they have a discussion and resolve. They'll get mad. And they won't discuss. They won't discuss. So how do you find resolve? You don't find resolve. In these relationships. There's no resolve. There is no closure. And that's the radical acceptance. Oh my gosh. So you just got to accept this person isn't going to have these conversations. this person's not going to have rationality for certain things. It's going to be their way or the highway. Correct. And they won't be flexible. No. And you've either got to live with it and accept it for a certain period of time, or you can choose to move on. Right. But being in an argument is only going to make your life worse. Correct. And you might say, like, that seems lonely. Yeah. And so I have worked with people who've stayed in long-term narcissistic relationships who have done everything from get very involved in, like, a religious community, church community, something like that. to do a lot of things with their friends, really build friendships. Unless the narcissist tries to control them hanging out with their friends. If you have a controlling narcissist, none of this will work. Like malignant narcissists, it won't work. But if you can build out friendships, if you can build out collegial relationships, if you're working, church community. Some people do this in online communities if they're not able to easily get out of the house and have friendships that way. develop hobbies they care deeply about a garden building something whatever their groove is music something like that i've known people that have lovers you know to say like i haven't my body hasn't been touched in 15 years and so they'll do that and they'll say i felt a little guilty but they're having sex with other people i haven't been touched and they're like you know i know i'm not and they're like i know i'm not very attractive but they found everyone's got someone everyone finds someone and they find their someone and so i've heard it all i've heard people do all finding their way to get that support when they have to stay. That where you get un The right person saying that not okay or this person conduct okay But I think where most people destroy themselves is they like a moth to flame They're like, I can fix this. And I'm telling you here, you can't. Stop trying to fix it. Stop trying to fix it. It's just not going to work. That was probably my challenge is I wanted to fix. Which, again, your athletic background, it makes sense. I mean, people who have had a track record of being able to get things done, they're the ones who are very vulnerable to staying in these relationships too long. I think I was attracted to it and then wanted to stay in it. It's attractive. And then I was just like, it just becomes exhausting when it's a full energy on someone else as opposed to a combination of let's work together on a shared vision towards our relationship, towards life, not all the energy in one place. Correct. Correct. And it is very draining. And I think a lot of people do feel like, you know, a good relationship is me doing everything they ask or catering to them. No, relationship. Being unselfish all the time. Yeah, being unselfish all the time. No, it's about give and take. I'm not saying transactional give and take. It's that you feel supported enough that when they say, hey, do you mind going to this dinner for work? And you're like, of course I'll go to that dinner for work. Because you care about them. And even if you both think it's ridiculous, you're kind of giggling at each other or, you know, having fun with it. is that you understand that there's a give and take, and you give graciously. And the other person gives graciously. This isn't just about grinding your teeth and being irritated you have to go, but really that giving with grace. But I'll be frank with you. It really comes down, though, to finding somebody who has a good personality. And I keep using this word agreeableness, right? Being agreeable. Being agreeable. And that's actually a personality style. How do you know when someone's agreeable? All those things I talk about, flexibility and warmth and kindness. Just the time, just staying over time, seeing their words, their actions. Agreeable men make less money. Agreeable men make less money. The research has shown that pretty clearly. Bless their hearts. And so for everyone out there who wants somebody who's got the money and the stuff, the probability that that person's going to be agreeable is a lot lower. So you just need to find a unicorn, someone who's agreeable and who has money. I have not. You've never seen that? I know. Yes, I have. I can think of one person off the top of my head. Okay. Billionaire. most agreeable man in the world, sweet, sweetest, married to a raging narcissist. You can't. You can He a darling Oh man But just gets walked all over in his relations Oh my God Beyond Walked all over But in his business he can go and have Killed it He can be assertive and yeah. I've met a few agreeable rich folks. I mean, really... I mean, not just rich, like really good at what they do. They are unicorns. They definitely... But what was interesting with some of the... A couple of these folks, agreeable, very wealthy. At the end of their career, they got taken down. They got people in their company. They were a soft target. They were the vulnerable target. They were the vulnerable target. They built the company. And they're going to take the equity from them, or they're going to be the one to blame. Yeah, they did. They got a group of people. Because they weren't willing to fight for what they… Well, no, they weren't willing to be disagreeable. They just wanted to keep the peace at all costs. And because they were collaborative people, they actually thought they were bringing up the next generation. It's interesting because, man, over the last decade, I really started doing a lot of healing work when I turned 30. I've talked about this many times on my show. I was sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know. And it definitely shaped a part of me for my life until I started to heal that process and really go through a healing journey of the shame that I felt for so long, the guilt, the insecurity, not feeling enough, we're not feeling lovable, all these different things, into kind of reshaping the story, the narrative, and finding the value in the process and in the pain, I guess, and really finding the value from 25 years of holding it in and channeling it, saying, how can I be of service at a greater level? How can I use this to support other men who have gone through sexual abuse? And that's why I wrote the book, The Mask of Manhood. Yeah, one in six men have been sexually abused, one in four women, obviously. And what I always tell people is that, you know, men just don't talk about it, you know, and they hold it in. And then they become angry or reactive or rateful or, you know, dismissive or whatever it is. They put a mask on. And, you know, that shame causes that mask, at least it did for me and a lot of men that I've talked to. So I can't remember where I was going with this, but for many years, I had to learn how to kind of unwind and heal that process. And it's been a beautiful journey of healing where I can, because I used to be very competitive. kind of unwind and heal that process. kind of unwind and heal that process. And it's been a beautiful journey of healing where I can, because I used to be very competitive. It was like, I had to win at all costs. And now I'm like, well, that didn't work for me. You know, it got me results, but it left me feeling empty and alone and unfulfilled. And I didn't have peace because I always needed to win. Then I started transitioning and when I hit 30, to I just want to collaborate. And I just want to support others and work together. And it feels a lot more peaceful inside and fulfilling. What do you think the function was of trying to win? Oh, to get love, be accepted. To get love and be accepted. I was going to say maybe to be safe. Yeah, to get love, to be accepted, to feel like I was, yeah, to fit in, you know, because I didn't feel like I had any friends growing up. So it was like, well, if I win, people recognize me and they like me. Right, right. And I'm desirable. Right. If I lose, then who wants to be, you know, around me? Yeah, and then the shame gets activated. But it's also safety. That's why if I win, I'm safe. That's the ultimate get for any human being. I'm not alone. I'm not alone. If I'm accepted, I'm safe. If I'm loved, I'm safe. And it's funny, when I moved into, and Jay Shetty talks about this a lot when I talk with Jay about this, he's like, just being in collaboration is the key. And I was like, I know that's what I feel like for the last eight years. Because you're safe when you're still collaborating. You're still with people. You're helping each other accelerate together. Right. But there's a fear, and I think one of the big impediments to collaboration is the sense that others will leave you behind. So if you become an island unto yourself, you feel safer, right? So I think that's often a blockade. I'm at the top of the mountain, everyone else is down. Yes. If they leave you, it's not the collaboration that's the issue, it's the potential for abandonment. Interesting. Like if I'm in this business, like the billionaire friend, I'm at the top, but then I collaborate with others, but then they take it all and they leave me behind. Well, they took it all away. I mean, this was somebody, and that man, that agreeable billionaire, was collaborative from the day one of his career. So how do you stay collaborative and live in abundance and want others to win around you but also not get taken advantage of? It's not easy. With the one in five number I'm giving you, it's not easy. I mean, it is, you know, what is the best offense is a good defense. You better have a good defense Get your contracts in order Get your contracts in order Document Don head in the sand i mean a lot the reason narcissism is proliferated the way it has is enabling people keep giving it a free pass oh come on now you know don't what is it don't don't hate the don't hate the player hate the game is that how that works right it's a player and yeah so it's it's a player yeah no so like it's it's a we have all this kind of culture around and And in some ways, people want to see... The best example I can give is that people hate the idea. When we see a magician do a trick, we know they didn't do magic. We know they had something up their sleeve, but we want to believe it's magic because that makes the world seem more interesting. With narcissists, we want to believe in the magic. We want to believe that they're going to be... We want to believe that this charismatic person is real, that someone this larger than life is larger than life rather than an ordinary person who who's just has ordinary things and could fall and you know and um we want superheroes we want that's why we've always written myths as a species but the myths should remain stories not the person who's trying to scream at you from the other cubicle i'm ready you've got uh some great books thank you don't you know who i am how to stay sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement, and incivility. And you've also got another book called Should I Stay or Should I Go? I'm just laughing because of all my experiences in my life. Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. It just feels like the best way to set yourself up for success is don't commit to being in a relationship with one in the first place. Take it slow. Learn the person. Learn as long as you can. Spot the red flags. You talk a lot about this in these books. You talk about this on your YouTube channel, which is amazing. I was watching some of the videos. Very inspiring. So if you want to make sure you learn this, do not get committed until you learn the person you're with. Learn the person. Take it slow. And don't justify bad behavior. When you witness bad behavior, unfortunately, it's like if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, scorpions sting. There are no such things as scorpions that hug And so once you see a scorpion it going to sting you So walk the other way And once it stings you once don pick it up again I even dated a couple of scorpios Not that all scorpios are nice, but it's funny. How else can we be supportive of you right now besides checking out your website, YouTube, social media, the books? You do workshops now. I do workshops. If you go to my Instagram, following me on Instagram, we often put, you know, we put the, let people know what's coming up then. We're going to have a healing program and recovery program for people who have been through narcissistic relationships. That's coming up next year. Yeah, just follow me on YouTube. We're always making our announcements there. Every day we have a new video coming out. So you will be 365 days wiser if you just keep watching. Yeah. Dr. Romney everywhere, right? Yeah, Dr. Romney everywhere. Everywhere. There we go. Okay, cool. A couple of final questions. This one is called the three truths. That's what I ask everyone at the end of our interviews. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on earth many years away. You get to live as long as you want, but it's the last day. And for whatever reason, all the content you've ever created has to go with you or go somewhere else. But it's not here. We don't have access to any of your information anymore. The books, the videos, everything's gone. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from all your life lessons and experiences. And this is all we would have from your information. What would you say would be those three lessons or three truths? If someone else is cruel to you, it's not your fault. Okay. You came into this world lovable and will always be lovable. And trust and honor your truth and don't let anyone ever take it away from you. Those are beautiful. Those are beautiful. Before I ask the final question, Dr. Romney, I want to acknowledge you for your commitment to this information, to this message. I feel like there's a lot of people, including myself, who have gone through a lot of this, who always struggle feeling like they're wrong and they're bad and they're not good enough in these types of relationships. And so for you to commit your adult life to this, to researching, studying, teaching in university in an academic level and now you know to the masses with your information your books your content I really acknowledge you for the gift and also the pain that you went through and your journey to learn these things and experience it so you can help educate and teach others to hopefully heal the relationships they've been through, make sure they don't get in those relationships and have a much more peaceful life. Well, I appreciate that. Pain is a hell of a mentor. Absolutely it is. and it's going to keep coming until we learn the lesson. It's going to keep coming. My final question is, what's your definition of greatness? My definition of greatness is humility, self-awareness, compassion, and empathy. There you go, Dr. Romney. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. This is amazing. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.
