--:-- Mel Robbins: Hey, it's Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Everyone, today we have a killer episode. What are we talking about? Only public enemy number one, narcissism.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What I've done is I've brought on the world's leading expert on narcissism to talk about this topic with all of us, because you know what? We have to hear about it. We got to understand it. And most importantly, we got to know how to protect ourselves from it. Because here's the truth. Narcissism, it's everywhere.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So here's what I've done. I have asked a friend of mine, Dr. Romani, who happens to be the world's leading expert on the subject of narcissism. She is so fascinating to listen to. Not only has she studied narcissism, been in academia for over 20 years teaching about it, she's a bestselling author, she's the host of the podcast, Navigating Narcissism. And I am so excited for you to learn everything that she is about to teach us today.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So without further ado, welcome, Dr. Ramani. It's so good to see you. And thank you.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So what is narcissism? Narcissism is a person who has a lack of empathy. And I'm going to talk about more performative empathy, which I'm going to get to in a minute. But they have inconsistent or low empathy. They're very entitled. They're arrogant. They're egocentric. They're chronically validation and admiration seeking. They need to be in control all the time. They are poorly emotionally regulated, prone to strong shows of rage if they're frustrated or disappointed or aren't getting in their way. They're very easily provoked and very thin skinned. If anyone gives them feedback or criticism, they just rage very quickly. They can't regulate themselves at those times. They're very pretentious. They tend to be very superficial. I mean, the list goes on, it's that kind of stuff.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Narcissism, I find to be an absolutely fascinating topic. I believe that when you understand what it is and what it isn't, and when you have tools, all of a sudden there is a light at the end of the tunnel that you're walking down and you realize you're not crazy, you're around somebody who's making you believe you are.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Correct. That's beautifully put. And I agree with you in a way what it is. I'm hoping to give people a guide to what they're dealing with and not in an accusatory, you're bad, I'm good way, but in more of a, this may not be good for me.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So let's start at the beginning because people are fascinated by the topic of narcissism. The word is now thrown around all the time.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So I even want to go to step zero from step one here to say narcissism is not a diagnosis. Okay. Wait, what? It's not.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Everyone's like, don't diagnose people. I'm like, okay. I roll up to someone. I said, if I called you stubborn, would you tell me I'm diagnosing you? They're like, no. If I told you, you were agreeable. Would you tell me I'm diagnosing you? No. Then why are you saying narcissism is a diagnosis when it's not? It is a personality style, just like agreeableness, just like introversion. All of those are personality styles. Nobody's getting themselves all the bee in the bonnet when we say those other things.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Wait a minute. I thought that this was like a diagnosis. See, already I'm learning stuff from you.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So narcissistic personality disorder is a diagnosis, right? That is. That's a very specific, three words, specific. It's like, let me put it this way. No one would get mad at you if you walked up and said, gosh, you're sad. You seem a little depressed. Don't diagnose me. We'd be okay with you saying, oh, you're sad. You seem a little depressed, right? Why? Depressed actually is a kind of a clinical term, right? Depression, it's actually called major depressive disorder, is a diagnosis. That's actually more on point.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So let's start here. It is a personality style. It is a maladaptive style. It is an antagonistic style, but it's a style no different than any other personality style. Now, the core of narcissism is a deep insecurity. And that's the piece we forget. These are not people actually who at their most primal unconscious level believe their hype. They are all of this stuff is to create almost a suit of armor around that unprocessed insecurity.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: The narcissistic person is always fighting a battle against shame. And the shame is that at an unconscious level, people are going to see they ain't all that. So if anything even pokes them, like even someone makes a joke at their expense, they lash out to maintain dominance. Because that's what you also want to know what motivates the narcissistic person: power, dominance, control, and frankly, safety, because all those things keep them safe. If they're in control, if they're the boss, if they have all the money, then they feel okay, all the power, whatever the fame, whatever it looks like, then they're okay. That's narcissism.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay, so just so I make sure that I'm tracking and everybody's tracking. So basically, we've collapsed two things when we talk about narcissism in society. There is narcissists and narcissism, which is a personality style that is maladaptive that we all might exhibit at some point?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Nope. No, no, no, no, no. I got a personality. You got a personality. People listening and watching this, they've got a personality and that's their personality. I know I'm, for example, Mel, I'm introverted. Everyone's like, no, you talk so much. Oh, heck no. There was a day the other day where I didn't speak to a single human being and I didn't leave my house. It was the best day of my week. And people, aren't you sad? And you're, we're going out. I'm like, have fun. Don't call me like we're good.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So I am a naturally introverted person. I am never going to be the life of the party. I am never going to want to go to a party. I am not a joiner. And after I spend time with a large group of people, I collapse into bed. That's my personality.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So this leads us to then what is this personality? What is this? So, but there's two things, just so I'm tracking that we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about narcissism as a personality style.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And then narcissistic personality disorder, which is a diagnosis.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: It's a diagnosis. And you know what? I don't even think we should talk about it. Because the fact is only one to maybe 4% of the population has this personality disorder. The vast majority of cases are never diagnosed because they're never across the table from a licensed mental health professional who's actually the only person qualified to issue such said diagnosis. And I'm going to be honest with you, even the majority of people who have the disorder, it's never documented anywhere because the insurance company ain't going to pay for therapy for it because you can't do anything about it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay. So setting aside narcissism as a clinical diagnosis, and let's go back to the personality style stuff, because I think that's fascinating. What do we need to know when we're dealing with somebody who is displaying these narcissistic traits?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: The challenge in this space of the narcissism space is so many people invest themselves and will, can I get this person to change? Can I be better? Can I do different to pull something different out of them? And it's to say, stop. That's not going to change, right? It's like trying to change the weather. There's nothing you can do to make Chicago warmer in February. It's going to be cold, bundle up, great city, but it's going to be cold.
--:-- Mel Robbins: There was a wake up call right there. When you're done listening to this episode and you understand what narcissism is and you learn the signs to spot it, takeaway number one is you cannot change the weather in Chicago and you cannot do anything to change somebody with a narcissistic personality.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Yeah. And let's push this a little bit further. So this is, I'm going to be sort of a provocateur here. Personality is tough. There's different schools of thought on how much personality can change. There's a little wiggle room. And I think the more, the greater a person's flexibility, psychological and personality, the healthier the person is. It's almost like your body. The more flexible you are likely, the more you work it out, the less likely you're going to develop osteoporosis and break bones and all that. Flexibility is everything. But it, I would say it matters more psychologically than it even means physically, right? That's why people stretch before a workout?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, that's interesting. Because what I'm thinking about right now is there's a pretty famous TED talk, but I think it's Dr. Schwartz talking about personality and what he basically says. And now I'm realizing it's the flexibility you're talking about. He, like you said, I'm a professor and I am very introverted, but when it matters to me, I can be flexible. I can stand in front of that classroom and I can profess. But the second that lecture is over, I collapse. I'm done. So the flexibility you're talking about is that an extrovert like me can shut up and be alone when it matters. An introvert like you can step in front of the mic, invite people into your home when it matters. But that flexibility is very limited. It's tied to when it's important to you, but then you go back to your baseline. Is that what you're saying?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Always. In fact, there is a theory, the idea of the rubber band theory of personality. And the idea of the rubber band is that you, we all have our personality, a rubber band is just sitting there in its state. That's who we are, but we can stretch it. We could stretch it a bit, but when back to baseline or even at times of stress, we go to our baseline personality, right? The challenge is, is that that person with a narcissistic personality, not only has trouble stretching, it's not even the stretching as much as the changing.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: The challenge with the narcissistic personality is, is that it's a very egocentric self-serving style, right? It's designed to get them what they need. It's what helps them feel safe, what helps them feel happy with very little regard for anyone else. Other personality styles, agreeableness. In fact, agreeableness is considered the counterweight to narcissism. So narcissism is actually what's called a real personality style is disagreeableness or antagonism right? So if narcissism's disagreeableness, agreeableness is the other side of that. Agreeable people are, I love agreeable people, they're the best. I would just like a little commune full of them. We're never going to take over the world and we're not going to make a lot of money, but let me tell you, so fun. Empathic, warm, flexible, make accommodation for other people, follow the rules, highly ethical. That's agreeableness. Opposite of narcissism, right?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: What's tricky about narcissism is there's different, I forgot to also say they're very grandiose. So they live in a fantasy world. I'm going to have the perfect love story. Look at my perfect life. You can see how social media took this grandiosity and blew it up into something that I've been studying narcissism since before there was social media. And I was like, what the holy hell just happened? I mean, what happened was narcissism's always been around as long as there were human beings. I mean, I'm guessing like Attila the Hun was probably a narcissist. Napoleon might've been a narcissist. I think if you go all the way back in the history books, in fact, when I helped my daughter with all of her ancient and modern European history, I'm like, narcissist, narcissist, narcissist. And I said, you see how much they shaped history to this day. So I think that it's always been there.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: The difference was back in the day, if you needed validation, okay, you and I are both old enough to know about rotary dial phones and no answering machines and no social media. So there was a time if you needed validation, you actually had to clean up and leave the house.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Right? Like you actually had to get up and go, you couldn't become famous, right? Even if you wrote a letter to the editor of the newspaper on some kind of rant. The editor was going to get a hundred of these or they'd get a hundred of these and pick one. So there was no public place to do this. So where narcissists really did their dirty work was they would harm the people around them. Very dominant, probably cruel to spouses, cruel to children. I think if you look at family lines of this intergenerationally, they'll say like, yeah, really brutal father, really brutal grandfather, really brutal great grandfather. And it often links to things like hierarchies, patriarchies, like things that are all very, very hierarchical. One person gets the final say, not because they're a good person, but just because. So these systems have always been there.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: And so what happened though, is one day, I remember it so well. I remember the house I was living in. Somebody said to me, have you seen this thing called Facebook? And they're like, you need to go check this out. They said, created an account. So I did. And I was like, Oh, this is going to be a disaster. You know, it must've been like being like a pulmonologist or a cardiologist when cigarettes were out. You're like, what is happening? And so at that moment, I thought the game's about to change. I had no idea what was going to come with the Instagram and the influencing and all. I had no idea what's coming there, but I thought, wow, nobody needs to leave the house. They can put forth a false version of themselves, the grandiose version, the fantasy version, and sit at home and let the validation come in. My concern was that this was going to make their narcissistic symptomatology worse overall. And I think that has been borne out.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Can I ask you a question? Because this is one of the things that really changed my life. When you taught me that narcissists are not born, they're made. Can you explain that to everybody? Because this is a game changer. I understand this.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So nobody's born this way. I mean, so even in a family structure where you have a grandfather, a father, like these dominant or mother person, you are not born a narcissist. Everyone listening to this will say there are four kids in our family. I have a brother who's narcissistic and the rest of us are really cool and nice and kind to each other. So I think of how many people out there who have siblings like I'm my sister's really kind and my other sister's really, really narcissistic. So if that was the case, it should appear at all siblings or at least 50 percent of them. So how does it get made? It's made.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So here's the most likely explanation is that there may very well be, and this has not been isolated yet, but there may very well be a biological vulnerability to it. And that would be probably delivered through something called a child's baby's temperament. Temperament is the genetic part of our personality. Anyone who spent time around a baby will know some kids soothe really easily. Some kids are just, they're easy. They're easy, smiley, friendly babies. They're really sweet kids, right? And as they grow up, they stay sweet and the teachers like them and they have friends and they're just sweet, sweet, sweet.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Then there are those kids who will not stop crying and they're demanding. And as they grow up, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. And they're always doing things for attention and they're disruptive and they won't sit still. And as they enter preschool and school, the teachers always say, sit down, stop that. So they're already starting to get kind of bad vibes from their constant attention seeking behavior. It's probably an interaction effect. The kid may not be getting enough attention or attachment needs met. So you have this biological vulnerability in the hands of a skilled, attached, warm, present, loving, consistent parent that might be manageable. And that sort of energy might get turned into athletic interests or creative interests. And that child won't feel pathologized for their style.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: But I hate to say it probably for the majority of kids with that style, it's a lot of stop that, sit down. Can't you be more like your sister? You're going in the corner. You're making a mess. You're going to the principal. So that kid is getting invalidated every time they turn around. That invalidation plus the temperament, plus the possibility that they don't have an environment where there's a possibility for secure attachment, plus the possibility of trauma, chaos, and neglect. That's one pathway to develop a narcissist.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So if I can just make sure I'm understanding, what you're basically saying is, even regardless of temperament, if you're not getting your emotional needs met, if you do not feel safe and secure in your house, if you have a parent that abandons you, a parent that's abusive.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You know, somebody with mental illness and addiction, somebody who's unpredictable, that you as a child don't feel safe or you don't feel seen all those emotional needs. And that's what leads to narcissism.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: But not always. In fact, I wouldn't say the vast majority of the time. Many, many, many, many people grew up in situations like that of trauma of neglect of abuse of chaos. And they do not go on to become narcissistic. They typically go on to become rather anxious adults with poor self-appraisal, who don't know their value and worth, a whole nother different burden to carry. But the narcissistic...
--:-- Mel Robbins: Are you talking about me?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Oh, no, no. I was actually talking about myself, Mel. So yeah, that was all me, you know? So it's a, but at the end of it, what we see is that it's still, the problem is, is that these paths aren't linear. I always say narcissism is a story. The development of narcissism is a story we can tell backwards, but never forwards.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So if I, I'm thinking, I have some clients who have been through horrific early childhood trauma, horrific, physical abuse, sexual abuse, violence. They grew up in chaos. To tell you that these are some of the most empathic, loving human beings I've ever met would be actually missing the mark. They're just solid people. If anything, they don't understand their value. Like their harm is very internalized. It's like, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing enough. But there's so much goodness, so much empathy. They've gone on to become amazing parents, all of that, right? So that early chaos does not damn someone by a long shot. But it does set up these what are called adverse childhood experiences. It definitely, if we view this from a probability standpoint, there's more negative outcomes that could come, either internalized, disliking oneself, or externalized, and that's more of what narcissism could potentially look like.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Now, there's a secondary path to narcissism. And that secondary path is actually one we probably should be monitoring in modern times quite a bit, which is the overindulged child. The child who gets whatever they want. Money is spent on them lavishly. You're so great. You're so smart. There was a study done out of Amsterdam. Now, it'll be interesting to see what happens when these kids turn into adults. He was studying children. But what he found, this guy, I think his name is Eddie Brummelmans at the University of Amsterdam. And what he found was that children who were told they are more special than other children, those were the kids that were already showing entitlement and other sort of soft signs of narcissism. So it's not that you're telling your child they're special. It's that you're more special than somebody else. That was sort of the penny drop moment, which is very much what you could imagine a more narcissistic parent doing. My child is more special than the other children. My child deserves special treatment. My child should play the whole game. My child should get this. My child should get that.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: But you're looking at kids where they're not taught the most critical things. What are the three most important things that you want to foster in a child? Healthy, secure attachment, a capacity to self-soothe and regulate, especially in the face of disappointment, and empathy.
--:-- Mel Robbins: All right. Well, let's dig into each one of those because they're intrinsically tied to understanding narcissism.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Secure attachment happens when a child has at least one primary caregiver that is consistently available, that the child feels that they can call that caregiver when they need them. That secure attachment develops over the early years. And we're talking birth to like two or three. This is something where you got to lock this in early, right? That securely attached child in those early experiments done by John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth sort of seminal work in the field. What they found was that the child who was securely attached, when mom would leave them with a strange situation, that would be preschool or babysitter or something like that, the child would whimper a little, like, where are you going? But then they would actually calm down very quickly with the soothing of a caregiver. And then when the parent came back to pick them up, the child would be thrilled to see them.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: In children who are more anxiously or avoidantly or insecurely attached, there would be almost difficult to soothe when the parent left. And when the parent came back, the child would actually either go into absolutely like another meltdown, almost like, how could you leave me? Or they turn their head away from the parent. You see, whereas that securely attached child would actually be happy to see the parent when they return. So that secure attachment is number one, and that's created by consistency and availability in that early environment. You need one parent doing that and one primary caregiver, to be honest, it's anyone, whoever that child identifies as such.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Number two is that children need to learn how to soothe themselves and they need to learn how to be disappointed. And we're not letting them do that. Like sometimes you fail, sometimes you don't get the teacher you want, sometimes they run out of chocolate ice cream by the time you get up, and you know what, you sometimes you lose at Chutes and Ladders. I remember like saying, I'm gonna win this game and you know people don't let them win. Am I gonna let them win? So I'm getting up to the top of the Chutes and Ladders and I'm going to win. And I'm saying, wow, that felt good. And when my daughter said, that's not fair. I said, oh, ho, ho, ho. I won this game. Let's be present with me winning. You want to play again? Sure. We can do that again, but you need to learn to be present that not every outcome is the way you're going to want it to be. That's number two.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Number three is empathy. You've got to foster empathy in children and foster compassion. That can be through books they read, stories they experience. Sure. But above all else in the home. How do they learn that? It's modeled for them. They see parents empathizing or caregivers empathizing with each other. They see extended family empathizing with each other. They see empathy in the classroom. They see empathy in the world. And you can imagine a child who sees none of that, or the parent is acting in a very entitled manner, like, oh, let's just go to the head of line. We're more important than these people. Or, oh gosh, you know, we're not sitting in that line. All these things parents do that they think are innocuous in an airport, at a soccer game, at a theme park, your kid's learning and their brain is just an explosion of neurons and dendrites. And that's getting filed away under we're special.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You know, the reason why this is so interesting to me is because I think one of the challenges when you have either a narcissistic parent or sibling or boss or somebody that you're in a relationship with is that you think that somehow everything is your fault. And when I learned from you that narcissists are made in childhood, it just opened up this door for me to go, oh, wow. So they didn't like choose to be this way. They're not consciously doing this. It's what it is.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: It's a regulation issue, right? So it's the sense that a narcissistic person never quite feels safe in the world, right? Because they never feel safe. They're always on the offense and the defense simultaneously, right? I'm going to win. I'm going to dominate me, me, me. And are you looking at me? You're looking at me and then rage, rage, rage. So that constant offense defense that they play makes them very antagonistic unless things are going exactly the way they want.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: And where narcissistic people are tricky is that if they feel safe, I got to tell you, it might be one of the most engaging, entrancing, exhilarating, charismatic, charming experiences you've ever had. They've hung the moon. They've hung the sun only for you. It is, I mean, it's dopamine. It's literally a Jekyll and Hyde experience. It is. But then at a time they don't feel safe or they're bored, it's over and people will spend their lives trying to get back to that hung the sun, hung the moon kind of a moment. And if they really don't have any more use for you anymore, then that's it. You ain't got to feel that again.
--:-- Mel Robbins: This is so fascinating. I have to stop you right there for a quick word from our sponsors. But when we come back, I want to dig into the warning signs. What are the signs that we need to know that you're dealing with a narcissist?
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--:-- Mel Robbins: So, Dr. Ramani, what are the five warning signs that someone is a narcissist?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So I would say number one would be that they're very reactive if they experience any form of feedback or criticism. So if you say anything, even a really thoughtful critique like, you know, I would consider rewriting this paragraph, they'll throw the paper in your face.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Really? Really?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Oh, so you're James Joyce. You write it, you know, that kind of thing. So very reactive, very quick.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Number two, oppositionality. If you tell them to do something, they'll go out of their way. They don't like being told what to do. So you might ask them, could you wear a mask? That was a big one during the pandemic. Could you wear a mask? How dare you tell me to do this? Could you not park there? That's reserved parking for the people who are coming for whatever reason. How can these spots are, I'm parking right here. If you tell them to do something, it is as though they feel they're being dominated and controlled. They ain't having that. That's another thing is you see oppositionality.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Their empathy is very superficial. Some people say, no, no, no, they had empathy. I'm like, talk to me about that empathy. And what you'll see is that it is very performative. It's very superficial.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So can you give us an example?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: An example might be, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, your brother's sick? Oh, wow. That's got to be really, really hard. Are you okay? Are you okay? That sounds nice. Then very quickly it'll be like, and now you want to talk about like, I'm the other person now. Yeah, I know he's been sick, but it's brought up all this other stuff for me. You know, like I'm really feeling lost and I'm realizing how much my brother is, how I, they don't want to hear it. So they'll come in with, they'll say, I always say this, narcissistic folks are great at thank you cards and thank you gifts, but they're really bad at true gratitude. So they will be seemingly empathic, but as soon as you go in a little deeper, like you're actually really talking about how your brother's illness affected you. Now you'll see, they'll tune out like, Ooh, too much emotion coming their way, too much need. So it's very quicksilver, what I call thank you card empathy. Like it'll seem so on point, but they're not really present with you.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: They'll cry at a movie, but when that same exact thing happens in their life, they're actually treating the other person badly and they don't even connect it to you. Like you were just crying when that man beat someone in the story. And then yet you were threatening something like, how do you not see, and they don't see it. They do not see it. So there is a performative quality to the empathy. And there's also a transactional quality to their empathy. They'll be really warm to you when they need something, but when they get it, they'll actually click out. And that's a really bad feeling because you recognize, Oh, they were just nice to me to get that thing. So I'd say it's this inconsistent, performative, sort of pseudo superficial empathy. That's another thing.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: The fourth I would say is egocentricity. It's really hard for them to not hijack a conversation, interrupt people, and constantly make it about themselves. So even when somebody might say, I went abroad for my very first trip and it was amazing and I went on an airplane and I did this and I did that, I got my first passport, like really sweet, it's so beautiful to hear people and you just sort of drink it all in. The narcissistic person, give them like three minutes and they're like, what airline did you take? Yeah, I take that airline. It's not that great. Oh, what hotel do you stay in?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Like, "Oh, the hotel I'd recommend in Rome is this. It's—oh, I went there. I went to that restaurant." And it just becomes, now it's their travelogue and they're yammering on. They just love to hold court, and it's always—the conversation always steers back to them. They cannot simply be present with somebody else telling a story. They'll interrupt, or they'll be contemptuous, like, "Oh my gosh, we're listening to this summer vacation story? Great. What a good use of my time."
--:-- Dr. Ramani: If anyone's ever watched *Succession*, I'd say the best contemptuous narcissist performance I've ever seen in my life is Roman. And what is the fifth sign? I would say it's constantly having to put other people down to lift themselves up. You know, "He thinks he got the right Tesla? That's just the baseline model." Or, "Nobody stays on that side of that island." It's putting other people down, and it is contempt. I would wrap up contempt in that. Narcissistic people are notoriously contemptuous. It often comes out as snobbery, but it can even come out as, "Oh God, dude, nobody's doing that," and they make fun of someone. It can really hurt the other person. And then what the narcissistic person will often do is turn around and say, "Oh, I was just making a joke." So now if you react to it, it's a joke. But if you say something to them and say, "It's just a joke," they'll still rage at you.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: And I'll throw in a sixth sign—or it could be 5A—is gaslighting. They are constantly doubting reality. "I never said that. I never did that. I didn't put that there. That never happened." And then when you try to push back on that, they'll say, "Oh my God, you're so sensitive," or, "Have you seen a shrink? Because people don't usually react the way you are." So they leave you feeling as though you're impaired. So I'd say that gaslighting is, like I said, 5A, because I gave you contempt as 5A.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay. So I don't know if anybody else listening is having the experience I'm having right now, where I have a pit in my stomach, because I have at least one person—a very prominent person—that I have in my mind in my life. And I'm like, check, check, check, check, check. Somebody's talking at the table. They're rolling their eyes at other people. Somebody leaves the room, they just immediately trash them as they leave. What I want to know is—we'll get into what to do—but now that you're really pulling apart the signs, and we've learned that there are sort of two tracks in childhood where this behavior and this personality type is made, what is the impact if you have a parent that is like this? If you've been raised by somebody that exhibits all five of these, or you're like, "Oh my god, I think my mom or my dad was a freaking narcissist," check, check, check—how does that impact you now that you're an adult?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So, it's not good. That's the best answer I can give you. It is not good. So let's remember two things. First of all, I'm going to add a 5B to that list: look for entitlement. That idea that they won't wait in line. They're special. They expect special treatment, and they get really angry if they're not given special treatment. That's another sign to look for.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: But let's remember this about narcissism: it's on a continuum. Not all narcissists are the same. So a person who is dealing with more of what we call a milder, lighter narcissistic person is having a very different experience than somebody who's dealing with a rather severe narcissistic person. And I think that has muddied the waters in this conversation. Because if a person dealing with a milder narcissist hears the story of somebody dealing with a severe narcissist, they say, "Well, maybe I'm not dealing with a narcissist because I'm not living in terror. I'm not isolated from all my friends." But that person dealing with a lighter narcissist is still feeling unseen, unheard, self-blaming, and all of that. It's just at a different level.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: The reason I bring this up is with the parents, right? I do think that any narcissism in a parent is never good for a child. But at the more severe levels, it's absolutely devastating. What it does is it hijacks a child's sense of self-identity and autonomy. They don't believe in themselves. They believe that their needs are—in fact, they've been shamed for their needs their entire life. "You want something from me?" That's what the parent's attitude is, maybe not that explicitly. But people who grow up with narcissistic parents, the vast majority become rather anxious adults who are not aware of their own self-worth, who have very inaccurate self-appraisal—usually in the wrong direction. They devalue themselves entirely. They don't trust themselves. They down-sell themselves. They don't aspire to things that they actually could do, because in some ways they so internalized the way they were shamed by that parent.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: But above all else, they sort of lose their entire sense of self because their parent never let them develop it. Because in essence, the parent really experienced the child as an extension of themselves. What does that mean, when the child is the extension of the parent? It means that the child should have no needs outside of that parent. So if the child goes along, everyone gets along. If they're, "Mommy, Mommy, you're so pretty and I'll do anything you want," and they eat the way the parent wants, and they do the sport the parent wants, and they excel at what the parent wants, and they just become literally the parent and have no identity or need outside of that—everything's going to be just fine. But that's not how kids work. The whole point of being a child is to individuate and become autonomous. And once that happens, the parent is not interested in that, and they don't like it. So the child will always feel that they're almost in psychological servitude to that parent. They're not allowed to have a reality outside of the parent.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Wow. Let's talk a little bit about this sort of whiplash, because when you're dealing with a narcissistic parent or spouse or boss, it feels like—I keep reading these comments from our audience about—on one hand, you're like, "Okay, there's the tantrum behavior," but you still feel responsible for them. You still feel guilty when you're mad at them. You still want to please them. Correct?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Correct. Why? Because—there's a guy named Daniel Shaw who writes about this brilliantly, and I want to credit him because I'm going to use his language. He talks about—and I'm going to use a technical term and then bring it down to how all of us would make sense of it—he calls having a narcissistic parent a "loss of intersubjectivity." That's a fancy way of saying, "It's my reality. It's my way. You are almost like a non-entity here. You, everyone exists to serve me. I don't want you to have needs. I don't want you to be something separate."
--:-- Dr. Ramani: In a healthy parent, the child will be sad and the parent will stop and be with their sad child and listen to them and empathize, even if the parent's in a good mood. Whereas a narcissistic parent will say, "This is my birthday. What is happening here? Get this kid away from me. How dare he cry on my birthday?" It's that kind of thing. So the child is not allowed to have any sort of experience outside of that of the parent. And the parent really expresses resentment at the child having needs. Thus the child internalizes a sense of shame and even guilt over having needs. So when they go into adulthood, that shame and guilt persists, because that relationship—a lot of therapists don't address it that explicitly. It's not an easy cycle to end, because remember, unlike an adult narcissistic relationship, the child needs the parent. The child needs the parent for safety, for shelter, for food. It's not like you can divorce a parent and say, "I'm going to start dating again and see if I can find someone better." That is not how this works. The child knows the parent is the only game in town. And identity is very much shaped by that attachment relationship, by that caregiving parental relationship.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So what you're learning is that you're a pain in the neck. Don't need so much. You're not good enough, because if you were good enough, that parent would be regulated, that parent would be happy. So you're doing something wrong. And the narcissistic parent explicitly and implicitly communicates that to them. "I wish you'd never been born. You're so terrible. I would have had such an amazing career if it weren't for you." A child shouldn't be hearing that. They'll shame a child's weight: "Oh goodness, somebody's eating too much." It's because you're a bad reflection on the parent if you don't look the way the parent wants. You're not doing what the parent wants. "My kid wants to play violin? He won't even play sports." All of those things are the child being supposed to be a functionary for the parent.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: And so as that person goes into adulthood, I would actually say it's almost a three-part whiplash. There is the sense of, "You know what the tantrum is. You see it coming." You then have the experience of, "Is this my fault? I need to calm them down. I feel bad." And then you have the third experience: you may still have some good moments with that parent. That parent may be really smart, really interesting, really fun. In fact, a lot of people say, "As I got older, there were parts of my parent I enjoyed because I noticed there was something fun, but I still felt the shaming and the blaming."
--:-- Dr. Ramani: And it's very interesting for a lot of narcissistic parents. They like babies, because babies are sort of like an accessory, like a bag. You can take them around and show them off. Once they stop being "baggable" and carryable, not so interested in them. Not so cute on social media. Then there's this huge long period where that child needs more than it can give back. Then the child gets into late adolescence and early adulthood. The parent's interested again. They can go out to dinner with them. They can go to a bar with them. They can go on an interesting vacation with them. They can bring them into the family business. And so now they're interested in their kid. And for some kids who desperately wanted that love, they go all in on that. They're like, "I'm going to play tennis with my dad," or, "I'm going to help my mom in her business," because now they're going to get that love—the love you wanted when you were four and you couldn't quite work in the family business. And that's where we get to this idea of the trauma bond.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So what do you do now? If you're sitting there listening to this and you're going, "Oh my God, that's me. And I do keep jumping back into the fire. It's like, are they super hostile? Or are they loving me? Did I get it right? And now I'm getting affection? Or are they trying to annihilate me because they're not getting what they need from me and I'm not behaving?" As an adult now, if you're going, "This is me," what do you do?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So a couple of things. Number one, I am not going to sugarcoat this and say there's like three easy steps to pushing back from a narcissistic parent. This ain't TikTok, folks. This is hard work. There is no three-step, five-step, ten-step, or even 172-step plan here. I'm going to take a deep breath because I need every one of you to hear this is not TikTok. You need to wake up and realize that first of all, you're not changing the weather in Chicago, and you're not going to change the personality type if your parent is a narcissist, or you are in love with one. So number one is the acknowledgement. And this is the hardest part of all.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Although you're this person's child, narcissistic people view all the people around them as objects. Like my coffee maker or my tea maker. This morning I made a cup of tea. I don't think about my tea maker unless I want a cup of tea. When I want a cup of tea, me and my tea maker interact. The rest of the day, I don't think about it once.
--:-- Mel Robbins: At all?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: At all. Why would I? I don't need a cup of tea. And that's how a narcissistic person thinks about other people. "Do I need something from you? Yeah. Oh yeah, I do need something from you. Now you're my central focus. I'm thinking about only you." But just like if that tea maker waddled over to me and said, "Hey, could you listen to me?" I'd be like, "What? You're a tea maker. Go away. This is not *Beauty and the Beast*. Appliances do not talk. Get the hell away from me. You are a tea maker. Learn your place." So for a narcissistic person, we all serve a function for them, whether it's their lover, whether you're their accountant, whether you're their cleaner. That's why narcissistic people always have a team around them. It's always about the team. I'm like, "Of course you have a team around you, because everyone serves a function for you."
--:-- Mel Robbins: I'm trying to pick my mouth up off the floor, because this is a revolutionary idea for me: that a narcissistic person isn't ever thinking about you unless they need something from you. And yet, if you have ever been in a serious relationship with a narcissist or you were raised by one, you think about them all the time. All the time. You're ruminating on them. They're not thinking about you unless they need something from you, or you're a blockade to something they need. Like you're not signing the deal, or because you're sick they can't go to something. Now they're thinking about you because they're mad at you.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Right. Going back to that parenting issue. So as you get into adulthood, you are an object to them. So like, "What can I do? What can I do?" You're never going to be able to read their mind and give them everything they want. There is no there there. You will never be able to—none of us are mind readers. You're never going to be able to fully anticipate. And what's so sad is people who are all in with narcissistic parents or even narcissistic partners will literally try to devote their lives to anticipating the narcissistic person's every need so they can finally, finally win them over, so they could do it just right. That's not possible because none of us are mind readers. Remember that?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So what do you do? You give up. At that point, you're like, "Okay, I can only be the best person I can be, live in a way that's in line with my own values." Right now, this is what I'm saying: this is not an easy TikTok strategy, because even as you do that, even when the day comes you realize, "My parent is never going to change. None of this is my fault. It's really just my genetic bad luck that this is the parent I pulled." Again, I am not responsible for any of this. I need to stop taking my bucket to an empty well. They're never going to notice me. They're never going to have empathy for me. I cannot live my life as a sacrifice to them and forever keep trying to please them and not living my own true authentic path. All of those things are important.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Here's the part that I'm saying is the work. And then when you tell your parent, "No, I'm not coming to dinner this Sunday. I didn't feel good last month. I'm taking a pass." "Really? You're not coming? I was making that special thing, and I really miss you, and I'm thinking of you, and you know I'm getting older..." 90% of people are going to break under that one, and they're going to show up. And guess what's going to happen at that dinner again? The criticism, the humiliation, the devaluation, the invalidation. So I say to people, you've got two options here: either be with the guilt of saying no, or go to the dinner with realistic expectations. And almost make it a game, like a personal bingo. It's not quite a drinking game, because if you took a shot every time they invalidated you, you'd be loaded before the main course came. But I've literally done this where I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to collect points at this dinner. For every five invalidations, I'm going to get a scoop of ice cream." And then it's like a little thing that pays out during the week. Tuesday, I'm going to get ice cream. On Thursday, I might get a massage. Fifteen invalidations is usually a massage for me. And that keeps you objective.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: And I'm like, "I'm gunning. Do it again, do it again, do it again. We're at 13. I really want the massage."
--:-- Mel Robbins: So let me ask you this question. Should you ever confront a narcissist? Like somebody is going to come listen to this podcast and be like, "All right, that's it. I'm calling dad."
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Nope. Nope. I can't. If we only said one thing in this entire podcast episode, it is: never, ever call out a narcissist. We will be giving the single most brilliant piece of advice.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Wow. I need to hear more about this, but I've got to take a quick break so we can hear a word from our sponsors. But when we come back, Dr. Ramani, I want to know why is it that you say we should never call out a narcissist?
--:-- Mel Robbins: So, Dr. Ramani, why do you never call out a narcissist?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: I'm going to temper that with: it depends on what you want. If you're doing this because you want a gotcha moment—"Ha ha, I see you"—okay, and they're going to rage at you, and they're going to scream at you, and there might be a smear campaign. They may be telling everybody out there that not only are you an ungrateful kid, but you are the narcissist, and you're the one who's harmful, and everybody needs to keep their distance from you. I mean, they will really do such a number on you. And they're not going to change. So if all it is for you is to say, "I see you," I think the better way to play that is you see them, not change your behavior. Stop being supply for them. Stop engaging with them. Stop taking the bait.
--:-- Mel Robbins: So are you saying if you call home and the first thing out of somebody's mouth is, "Haven't heard from you in a long time," you should not say, "You know, the phone works both ways"?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: No way. No. If you know this person is narcissistic, absolutely not. So they say, "Haven't heard from you in a long time." And you say, "No, you haven't." Oh. And where are they going to go with that? Because what you've done is you've taken away the volley. They're playing tennis. You need to play solitaire.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Can you give us some other role plays? So put another conversation starter out there for me.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: "Why don't you come to Thanksgiving?" And the assumption in this one is you've committed fully to not going. "Every day you've got to come to me." Okay, so you go—this is where—and I'm going to step back before I role play that. I'm going to introduce the concept of "True North." True North is a big healing technique we call for folks—or at least it's more of a management technique than healing, I should say. True North is that you need to figure out what in your life is worth fighting for. So maybe you're not going to Thanksgiving this year, not only because you don't want to see them, but your kids are playing football that day, and you do not want to miss that football game. Or you have a big deadline at work the Monday after Thanksgiving and you want to get it done. Or you said, "Screw it, this is the year we're actually going to go camping, we're going to go to Hawaii for Thanksgiving, because that's what my family has always wanted to do." You've decided to take a trip with your friends. Your True North is what is healthy for you. You've got to be clear on that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It sounds like it's a balance between how much guilt can you tolerate, right?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: It is, it isn't. Because the guilt—people feel guilt when they believe they're doing something wrong. So to which I'd say, "What did you do wrong?" You feel guilt if you committed a crime. You feel guilt if you stole something. You feel guilt if you cheated on someone. So when my clients tell me all the time, "I feel guilty," I'm like, "Tell me what you did wrong." And that's when I get the pause. They're like, "I don't want to go to Thanksgiving." I'm like, "I'm sorry, help me understand where that's wrong." "Well, that's what they want." I'm like, "I hear that, but how is that wrong?" Because the axiom to that is: not doing what they want is wrong.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay. Everybody, did you hear that? This is a huge takeaway. So if the lights are going off in your head and you're starting to go, "Wait a minute, I definitely either had a parent that had some narcissistic personality, or I'm in a relationship with somebody like this," the reason why you feel guilty is because if you don't do what they say, that's wrong.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Correct. That's exactly it. And that's what you were trained to believe. You were trained to believe that. And if you had a parent like that, or let's say this is even happening in your committed relationship or your marriage, then you were almost indoctrinated into believing not doing what another person wants is wrong. And I like to make the argument about it for me. This is foundational. Because what happens is the tantrum throwing, the shaming, the gaslighting—"I didn't say that"—all the adolescent, toddler tantrum behavior is what actually has trained you to believe that not doing something that that person wants is wrong. That's why you feel guilty.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Holy shit. Yeah. Wow. How the hell do you get rid of that programming?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Well, first of all, one of the only paths forward to healing is getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. I don't like that answer, and I know people don't like that. And I'll tell you why. Everyone goes to the damn gym and they lift the weights and they do the this and they're cross-fitting that and they're in pain because they want a hot ass or they want abs or they want arms. They want to look good. Why are you willing to tolerate pain there, and you're not willing to tolerate pain here? Pain's pain, folks.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, okay. I mean, I thought I had learned everything there was to learn about narcissism from you, but I'm having major breakthroughs right now and insights. So should authentic or empathetic people—how do we protect ourselves from narcissists in life?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: It's a tough one. I think that every so often, Mel, every so often—and they're like that perfect seashell that's not cracked you find on the beach—I find these people who have never encountered narcissism. They had two loving parents. They grew up in a happy home. They love all their siblings. They met someone in college. They fell in love. They both got good jobs. I hate these people. I'm just kidding. I do. I wish this was everybody, honestly. I'm happy for them. And those people, you talk about narcissism to them, and I could be talking about some sort of—they think I have a tinfoil hat on. They really do. And I get it, because they have absolutely no schema for that.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: But going back to the world of the authentic and the empathic, that's also—especially the authentic folks—it's a rare group. Here's the thing about authenticity, Mel, something we lose, and I think it really gets brought into stark relief when we're talking about narcissism. People talk about authenticity like it's an easy thing. The hardest thing in the world is to be authentic, because to be authentic is to be unpopular. To be authentic is to blaze your own trail, even when other people are cluck-clucking at you and stigmatizing you and giving you the side eye. "What are you doing? People don't do that. You're supposed to do the sort of missionary position, follow-the-rules kind of life." And authentic people say, "No, that's not who I am. That's not what I'm about." Authentic people are very clear on their values, what they stand for, what matters for them.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So I'm not saying that authentic people don't feel guilt. They'll feel tremendous guilt, but they'll also feel committed to the potential within them and the people they care about. And to say, ultimately, giving into this person's abuse is not doing me any favors, for sure. It's not doing my kids any favors. It's not doing the people I care about any favors. And it's actually not doing them any favors, because it's reinforcing them in this sick cycle. And I don't want to be part of this. So we've got to get away from the idea that authenticity is easy. Authentic people actually often have smaller social networks than other people, because they've called away all the dead weight. They've cleared away all the dead branches. They said, "No, I will not have people around me that are unhealthy, that are invalidating." It is a brave stand, and it's not an easy stand.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: And some people say authentic people are selfish. They're cold. They're uppity. They'll really paint them as, "Oh, who do you think you are that you get to do that?" And all the authentic person is doing is trying to draw a boundary against unhealthy people. It is not easy to do, because a lot of people feel like you have to put up with the unhealthy people. "That's what we do. Families stick together," and all that kind of stuff. And to which I say, "No." I mean, why would we punish a person for genetic bad luck for the rest of their lives?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Is it normal for people to listen to you and start to worry, "Am I a narcissist?" Because I'm also sitting here going, "Oh my God, I kind of sound like this sometimes. Like when I'm frustrated. Is this me? Did this become my personality?"
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So here's the thing. Not all of us—all of us, sometimes even every day—have moments when we're not graceful. What we need to look at is how quickly and how authentically we make amends. So if you snap at someone at work, you catch that and within very quickly say, "That was not okay. I take responsibility for that. You were not responsible for that. I was having a bad day, but that's not your problem. And so I apologize." When we do those things out, no narcissistic person in the world is ever going to do that unless a publicist makes them, and then you can tell, because they're trying to save face. Or they'll say my favorite, the narcissistic apology: "I'm sorry you feel that way." That's how narcissists apologize. "I'm sorry you feel that way."
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, I'm like, "Oh, hell no."
--:-- Dr. Ramani: The minute I hear that, I'm like, "This conversation's done." And I don't storm off. I usually—you've got to learn your sort of nod, Mona Lisa smile, and say, "You know, I've got to jump." Now, some people say that's passive aggressive. Well, there's no path forward. And if I'm not in the mood for a fight, you'll say, "Okay, you know, I've got to jump. Thanks again." And then close off the conversation on whatever else needs to get done.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Can you talk a little bit about family roles where there are narcissistic parents? I found that to be fascinating.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Yeah. So in a narcissistic family—and assuming there's more than one child, and even if there's not, that child could still be placed in a role—we have some classical roles that kids fall into. And roles are never healthy in a family system, because in a way you can see that each of these children are either being put in the role or have taken on this role as a survival need, versus a child just getting to be a child.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: So the number one classical role is the golden child. This is the child who has been anointed by the narcissistic parent. It could be that that child resembles the parent. The child is getting a lot of validation from the world. They may be good at something. So they're the one who is always doing well at sports, or people like them, or they sing well, whatever it may be that the parent is getting a lot of validation from. So they make that child the golden child. Now, usually to have a golden child, you need another sibling to sort of create that dynamic, because that other child is not the golden child. So it's clear there's a sort of chosen child in the household.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Do golden children remain golden children permanently?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Not necessarily. If there's a point at which the golden child decides to step out of ranks or do something that aggravates the narcissistic parent, the crown shall be removed from their head.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: The other primary role in these families is the scapegoat. The scapegoat gets the worst of it. I would say in some cases, the scapegoats get it so terribly in narcissistic families, they come out of childhood with something that looks like complex trauma. They are constantly criticized, compared to other kids. They're literally not given—one kid's tuition will be paid for and the scapegoat's will not. The scapegoat will be expected to get a summer job to help the family. The golden child will get to go to some special camp. It's a stark, marked difference. The scapegoat will endure abuse that other siblings in the family don't endure.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Why is the scapegoat the scapegoat? It's hard to know. I've heard every reason in the book. The scapegoat simply knows they're the scapegoat. It is a terrible legacy to take into adulthood, because they will forever wonder why. What was it about me?
--:-- Mel Robbins: What do you have to say to somebody who's listening saying that was me?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: I would say we start with trauma work, validation of their experience. Because for a lot of scapegoats, they were told, "You were treated no differently." So we start with straight up: you were treated differently. That happened, and that's the foundation. You kind of jump and grow from there, knowing that this was real. And then you explain to them how narcissistic families work and how narcissistic personalities work, because ultimately it wasn't their fault. It wasn't the scapegoat's fault.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: The next type is what I call the helper. The helper child is almost like a personal assistant. They are constantly exhausting themselves to do things for the parent. They may watch younger siblings. They might try to keep the house clean. They feel like they have to do this, not to be a responsible player in the household, like everyone doing their part, but because they feel this is the only way to get seen, recognized, or avoid the narcissistic parent's abuse.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Another type of child we see is the fixer. The fixer is like a mini diplomat who's trying to insert themselves at all times, trying to make sure—for example, if you have a narcissistic parent and a non-narcissistic parent, there can be really terrible verbal abuse, sometimes even violence, but more verbal, emotional abuse. That fixer child will constantly be inserting themselves, almost like a court jester, to keep the parents from fighting. They will stay up later than they want to, to make sure the parents don't argue. They'll sometimes fall on the grenade to protect the scapegoat. So that's the fixer.
--:-- Mel Robbins: One thing that really struck me in what you're saying is having one parent versus two. I guess I just assumed there was always one.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Oh, there can be two.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Two narcissists are attracted to each other?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Oh, heck yeah.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Flashy, superficial, grandiose. "We're going to be the greatest thing ever. We're going to save the world together. I'm hot. You're hot. Let's go be hot and save the world." You don't think those people are drawn together?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Actually, that's true. You see them all over social media.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Social media, LA, all the time. And that's a nightmare scenario for a child because nobody pays attention to the children except when it's a good social media moment. Like, "I'm a mom blogger and they've got their sort of teeth-whitened husband smiling and the children are in white shirts."
--:-- Mel Robbins: White shirts. Who puts a child in a white shirt? I never owned anything white for my children. They're in their twenties now.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: But they've got the white shirt and the white teeth and the "look at us." But when the cameras are off, not so interested in those kids anymore.
--:-- Mel Robbins: That's true. And kids know when it's phony.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Exactly. And this is the first generation of kids raised with social media from front to back. The data now needs to be collected on that.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: But we've forgotten about the truth teller. The truth teller is a profound child in the narcissistic environment. This is the kid who sees it and gets it. They don't have a vocabulary for it. In some ways they're a bit horrified because they're like, "Oh God." The truth teller struggles. They may have fantasies like, "I wish this parent would leave" or "I hope they never come back. They're terrible. This is awful."
--:-- Dr. Ramani: The truth teller can overlap. You'll have scapegoats who are truth tellers. You'll have helpers—the helpers, not so much. The poor helpers are sort of lost in trying to make mom a martini. But the scapegoats can sometimes be truth tellers. The truth teller can sometimes ultimately be scapegoated because in a weird way, the narcissistic parent almost has this sense that that little kid has their number. It brings up a lot of shame for that parent. So they'll try to silence that child, do the equivalent of excommunicating them, putting them in the cheap seats, and ultimately scapegoating them.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: And then every so often there's the brainwashed child who thinks the narcissistic parent is just great and doesn't see it even into adulthood. When other siblings say, "Mom's a narcissist," they'll say, "Don't say that. She gave up everything for us. You're too selfish to see." They're fully in the cult.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Dr. Ramani, you are unbelievable. Thank you for my personal therapy session. It's funny how that happened. Oh my gosh. I learned so much. I think there were a number of things that really stood out to me. Obviously, you can't change the weather in Chicago. That's relieving. I also love that insecurity is at the core of someone who's a narcissist. That helps me distance myself by feeling a little empathy. I know that's weird, but the empathy is kind of tied into the guilt a little bit. Like I actually feel bad. I wish this person were happy.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Are they happy? Because they don't know? They're not. And in that balancing act, Mel, one thing that so many survivors are afraid of—they feel it's so dismissive to say "I don't want to lose my empathy and my compassion." Empathy and compassion doesn't mean you hang out and be someone's emotional punching bag. Empathy and compassion means that you can gracefully step away. Even if they're raging at you, you don't need to get in the mud with them because you do recognize that they're having their pain. But empathy and compassion doesn't mean you forever remain someone's prisoner.
--:-- Mel Robbins: That's beautiful. The other thing that I learned in this episode that was incredibly helpful, and I'm sure was helpful for everybody else, is the moment you said when we role-played about the calling—"I haven't heard from you in a while"—that idea that they're not thinking about you unless they need you.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Correct. Even though there's suffering. They need supply. Narcissistic people care deeply how things look to the world. So it looks good to the world if you show up for dinner, if you show up for Thanksgiving. That's what it is. Their supply comes from—it's not "Did we have a loving, compassionate Thanksgiving even if we ate it out of takeout boxes?" It's "Does it all look good?" It doesn't matter if everyone is miserable. If I screamed at everyone, I need the picture. I need the picture. It's all about narcissistic supply. So they need you there. They need someone there. By and large, narcissistic people need other people. Some narcissists are introverted, but by and large it's an extroversion pattern we see in them. It's "I need to look good. I need you to tell me I'm great. I need you to come over and I need to feel like, look at me, I've got a big family." Not that they care about the people in the family. It's just, "Look at everyone around the table. This is my family." You're a thing, versus human beings who may that year have had an incredibly difficult year. That's a year you don't want to get on the plane or drive the four hours, or you've been not feeling well. A compassionate family member says, "Hey, listen, I'll send you some takeout. Get some rest. I love you." Thanksgiving is about that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Wait, people do that?
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Yes, they do. Again and again, those are our agreeable folks. But no narcissistic person is ever going to do that. Imagine that was your reality—that someone's like, "Hey, you need to do what feels right for you." You'd want to show up. You're like, "Hell no, I'm driving through a snowstorm to get to you. It's too cool to spend time with you." So the very person who'd give you permission to say "you need to do what feels right for you" is exactly the person you would trudge through the rain to get to. Whereas the narcissistic people feel entitled to you being there when they want you there. Which is why you also experience a lot of rage.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay. This has been so amazing. When we let our audience know that we were going to have you on, the comments and forums blew up with questions about dating and work. So we're going to have you back. We've got to do part two of this conversation. We have to focus on dating, how to spot it, what to do. I want to talk about work. So we will definitely have you back. But you also have a tremendous amount of resources for people. I know that you're thinking as you're listening to this, or watching us on YouTube, "Okay, I've got to dig in deeper. I want to go deeper into my own healing." So I'm super excited that you have so many resources. We're going to link to everything in the show notes and also in the comments here on YouTube. Because here's the thing, everybody: She's the world's leading expert in this. I know that we've spent a lot of time talking about narcissism and understanding it so you can spot it, so you can get some distance from it, so you can understand the biggest takeaway. She kept saying: It's not about you. It really isn't. You did nothing wrong. It feels like it is. And you're not changing the weather in Chicago.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Correct.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Absolutely amazing. You are a complete gift. Thank you for all of your wisdom, your time, your expertise, the tools, the learning today. Every time I spend time with you, it deepens my healing. It makes me smarter. I just love having you in my life. So thank you.
--:-- Dr. Ramani: Thank you so much, Mel. My pleasure.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I can't wait to have you back. We're talking dating and work next, people. Here we go. And for you, in case nobody else tells you today: I love you. Dr. Ramani loves you too. We believe in you and we believe in your ability to not only create a better life, but to heal from the things that are painful in your life. We are both here to support you. So thank you for spending your most precious time with us.
