--:-- Sean Rameswaram: All right. Hi, Mom. Hi, Sean. Guess who's supporting the show this week? Chitra. No, that's you. You are supporting the show, but it's Uber. Oh, Uber? Yeah. Really? Yeah. I've taken Uber a couple of times. Yeah, there you go. Check it out. Do you want to help? Here, read this thing right here.
--:-- Mom: Yeah, I'd love to.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Uber is moving forward, listening to feedback so they can improve and get better every trip. Nice. They're building new features to take the stress out of your pickup and working on ways to keep you better protected and connected throughout your ride. Nice. You can find out more by going to uber.com slash moving forward. That's uber.com slash moving forward.
--:-- Mom: Thanks, Uber. Thank you, Uber.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hello? Hi, David. You can hear me? Yes, I'm good. Is the timing better? Yes, it's better. Let's, let's roll. Okay, let's do it. Tell me your name and how it is you want me to identify you on the radio.
--:-- David Begnaud: All right. So my name is David Begnaud, and I'm a CBS News correspondent.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tell me where you are right now.
--:-- David Begnaud: I'm in Hidalgo, Texas, about 30 minutes outside of McAllen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And why are you there?
--:-- David Begnaud: We are actually looking to speak to people who live near along the border about how they feel regarding the separation of families.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How many kids do you know of are being separated from their families?
--:-- David Begnaud: How many kids have been separated so far? Border Patrol tells us that since the zero tolerance policy was initiated in the sector where we are, which is the Rio Grande Valley area, the busiest area in McAllen, Texas, they have separated nearly 1,100 kids from their families since May.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A Homeland Security spokesman said today that nearly 2,000 minors were separated from their parents between April 19th and the end of May under the administration's new zero-tolerance policy.
--:-- David Begnaud: So the government has all of a sudden been giving media access to the sites where children who have been separated from their parents are being held. Why have they started doing that all of a sudden?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know. Good question.
--:-- David Begnaud: The facility we went to is a facility where kids have actually not yet been separated. So we were allowed entry into a facility where people are detained. It's a former warehouse. It's a nondescript building that if you drove by, you wouldn't notice anything other than the border patrol cars that are in the parking lot.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It doesn't look like a jail from the outside, but when you go into the inside, it's clear that these people cannot leave. They can't come and go.
--:-- David Begnaud: There are cages, right? There's netting at the top of the cages. There is no way out unless they open the door and they let you out. Chain link fences, cages, enough room for people to put their legs out, maybe lay down on the floor, but it's not much more generous than that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: People are allowed to come and go. You go to the restroom, you go to get food, maybe a little recreation, but the bottom line is it will look to any average person like a jail.
--:-- David Begnaud: When we walked in, there were two giant cages. Both had men in them. The men looked to be in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. They were on the floor. Some were sitting on mats. Others had foil blankets that were wrapped around them, the type of foil that you would see marathon runners using after a race to stay warm.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was about 73 degrees inside the facility, we're told.
--:-- David Begnaud: As we progressed into the facility, the next large cage that we saw were unaccompanied minors. Border Patrol says they came across the border alone, and so they are detained alone with others their age.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The cage across from the laundry area was a cage of fathers and children. Some fathers snuggled with their kids sitting on their lap. None of the kids looked miserable. I didn't see any crying.
--:-- David Begnaud: Some of the kids ate snacks like lace potato chips and green apples. Some were drinking milk. Others appeared to have a juice box. Other kids were sort of just sitting around just playing, looking at the floor.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's not much to do. There were no toys. There was one small television that we're told a Disney movie plays on.
--:-- David Begnaud: I don't know how you'd hear the movie. There's really no way.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As we moved on to the next cage, it was mothers and children. Some mothers had what appeared to be newborns. One woman was pregnant. Others had toddlers. They appeared to be fine.
--:-- David Begnaud: The adults sort of all had this blank stare on their face. I don't think they knew who we were. I don't think they knew that we were there to document their story.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: By the way, we were not allowed to talk to anyone. We were told you also can take a camera in The only thing you can do is write down what you see And so we wrote as much as we could in the 15 minutes of time that we had
--:-- David Begnaud: How long have these people been there do you know
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Everyone at the facility is there for no more than 72 hours.
--:-- David Begnaud: At some point within that 72-hour time frame, the mother and father, if they cross the border with the child, mom and dad go to see a judge. At that point, they're separated from the child.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If the judge decides to put the mother and father in jail for days, weeks, months, or years, A federal agency takes custody of the child and they could move the child to another city or state for temporary housing with the possibility that that child is then reunited with a relative who may already be living in the United States.
--:-- David Begnaud: If the judge decides not to send the parents to jail, they go back to the detention center and they're reunited with the child.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But at the end of the day, what is different under the Trump administration is that every single adult who crossed the border illegally is going to be prosecuted.
--:-- David Begnaud: Border Patrol says under the previous administration, not everybody was prosecuted. In this case, every adult is going to go before a judge.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And when the adult goes before the judge, if there's a child who's with them at the facility, they are separated at that point.
--:-- David Begnaud: Who's running this facility? Who were the people you were interacting with who represented the government?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Customs and Border Patrol is the agency that is running the detention facility in McAllen.
--:-- David Begnaud: It is the busiest holding processing detention facility anywhere along the southern border.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what was your impression of their understanding of this situation? Do they seem to be fully aware of what they're doing, of what the parameters of what they're doing are?
--:-- David Begnaud: Look, this is an exceptionally confusing issue. And I actually said to Border Patrol at one point, you can't expect journalists to be able to have a comprehensive contextual understanding of a story if you have a news conference and you allow each reporter to ask two questions, which is essentially what happened.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But to their credit, they are the only federal agency that is really doing this kind of cooperative press conference, talking to answering questions with journalists.
--:-- David Begnaud: We've been trying to reach Health and Human Services for days now, and we can't get them to put somebody on camera who can give us sort of a lengthy interview to answer our questions.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're the federal agency that would take the child from Border Patrol and find long-term sheltering maybe in another city or another state. A lot of questions for them. Can't get a good answer for them.
--:-- David Begnaud: Also ICE, Immigration's Customs Enforcement, they're involved. I can tell you that behind the scenes, there is frustration amongst Border Patrol that they seem to be the only federal agency who is taking the heat.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is the government not letting reporters close to the actual instance of separation?
--:-- David Begnaud: My colleague Gil King actually went into a reunification facility where a Catholic nun who works for Catholic charities here in South Texas actually is involved in helping to reunify families.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're entering the country asking for protection. How can that be breaking the law? They're not running away. They're simply saying, I need your help. My life is in danger.
--:-- David Begnaud: So we are able to see the before, thanks to Border Patrol who allowed us in, and on the back end, thanks to Catholic Charities, this non-profit organization, what they're able to do once people are turned loose.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because remember, not all parents who go before a judge end up going away for months or years. They sometimes, for various reasons, are returned to the facility.
--:-- David Begnaud: And the government told us today that they cannot – in fact, let me actually pull up the quote right here. So the Homeland Security Secretary said today, when a child is apprehended with their parents, Homeland Security is required due to various court rulings to release the child within 20 days.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So there are laws that say in many cases where a judge won't make a definitive ruling to hold a parent that families are reunified. And at that point, they are released into the community.
--:-- David Begnaud: And so there are organizations like Catholic Charities who take them to a church, give them some clothes, give them a voucher for maybe a bus ticket, feed them, and get them on their way with the understanding that they've got to go back and appear before that judge.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You saw pregnant mothers, you saw mothers with newborns, and you saw adolescents with their fathers. I know you weren't able to speak to them, but is there some sense of dread that they might lose their kids?
--:-- David Begnaud: I didn't see angst on people's faces. I have to be honest with you. I didn't see fear, but I think it's hard for me as a journalist without talking to somebody to accurately convey how they feel.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I couldn't ask them questions. They just looked at us. Some were smiling, chatting with other people standing next to them. Everything seemed okay as okay as it can be when you in a detention facility
--:-- David Begnaud: Is this actually working? I mean I think Jeff Sessions has come out and said this is meant to be a deterrent. We cannot and will not encourage people to bring their children or other children to the country unlawfully by giving them immunity in the process.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is it working? I asked the border sector chief, does the separations and what you're seeing, can you say that the program is effective, right? This deterrent way of turning people away.
--:-- David Begnaud: And his answer was, it's too early to tell. And I tried to pin him down several different ways to get him to answer the question. You're separating families. Can you just tell me, do you think that this is working as a deterrent? Is it helping you? Is it dropping the numbers?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He said, it's too early to tell. In all fairness, many observers say it is too early to tell in two months.
--:-- David Begnaud: What we know for sure is that it's causing a huge emotional response around the country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: David, thank you so much. Yeah, no problem. Good luck.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Up next, this business of separating kids from their parents at the border has gotten so big, so controversial, that some Republicans are turning against President Trump. This is Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You said you've used Uber a few times? Yes. How was it? Good. You liked it?
--:-- Mom: I haven't had a problem with them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You didn't have an Uber problem? No. When did you use Uber? Go to the airport. Like when? Like last year, this year, two years ago? This year once. Maybe a couple of times last year.
--:-- Mom: Did you know that Uber has turned the page and is moving forward? That's what I heard. You heard that? Yeah. Oh, because you read it before?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you want to know specifics? Yes. The company's goal is to improve the experience for both riders and drivers. They've been listening to feedback, working on ways to keep you better protected and connected during your ride so they can get better every trip. Sounds good.
--:-- Mom: With new features, Uber is making it easier for you to verify the details of your ride, showing your driver's name, car, and license so you can make sure you get the right ride every time. Great.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you remember where you can find out more? Uber.com. Slash? Slash. Slash.com. I think it was uber.com slash moving forward. Uber.com slash moving forward.
--:-- Mom: Thanks, Mom. You're welcome.
--:-- Dara Lind: I'm Dara Lind. I'm a senior reporter at Vox covering immigration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, Dara, a bunch of Republicans in the House are speaking up against children being separated at the border. Even Paul Ryan. What are they saying? What is he saying?
--:-- Dara Lind: So there are a lot of expressions of sadness and regret, right? There's a lot of like, it is sad that this is happening to people. We don't want kids to be separated from their parents.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think I just made that really clear. There's less momentum on Congress's part to do something about it. And why are they speaking up now? What's changed for them?
--:-- Dara Lind: It's become, I think, very clear that the family separation issue isn't going away. That, you know, there continues to be a lot of outrage about it. The stories of people being separated from their children are mobilizing, I think, some people who wouldn't consider themselves Trump critics most of the time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The other thing is that the Trump administration isn't explaining this very clearly. They're tripping all over themselves. They don't appear to be agreed about whether this is something they have to do or something that they are choosing to do, why they're choosing to do it.
--:-- Dara Lind: So it's making it very hard for Republicans to feel that they are being defended by the administration on this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I guess we can expect the president to be sort of inconsistent and haphazard. But what has his Department of Homeland Security said about this?
--:-- Dara Lind: So Trump's Homeland Security Secretary, Christian Nielsen, last night tweeted that we do not have a policy of separating families at the border, which is true in literally the most narrow sense.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The official policy is that they prosecute everyone and they just put that policy in place knowing that that meant that families would get separated.
--:-- Dara Lind: But as of Monday morning, she was actually actively defending it. She was saying that, you know, the kids are in great conditions, that you shouldn't listen to the media, that this, you know, kind of making it seem like something that was not a punitive policy, but that's something that people were actively being cared for.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She's saying the kids who are being separated from their parents are not in harm's way, are doing fine.
--:-- Dara Lind: In fairness, there is a lot of confusion, I think, in the controversy around this. There's a lot of outrage at the idea that the particular facilities that people are being held in may not be what you would want a kid to be in you know whether they in cages or not But at the same time some people are much more concerned about the fact that they being separated from their parents at all
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Nielsen was trying to answer the first group of criticism but that really doesn't address the second group
--:-- Dara Lind: What might change here I mean the House is talking about a few pieces of legislation now, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, the pieces of legislation the House is talking about kind of date back to the last immigration debate. Even though the compromise bill that they wrote did just come out last week, it's much more geared toward the concerns they were discussing then, what to do with immigrants who are facing the loss of their protections under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals or DACA program, what to do about legal immigration.
--:-- Dara Lind: So like there's nothing in either of the bills they're set to vote on that would actually change this policy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why are they even discussing these two bills right now? Are they responding to this controversy over separating kids at the border with a piece of legislation that has nothing to really do with that?
--:-- Dara Lind: This is really the result of a much longer fight that some moderate Republicans have been fighting because they feel that they're vulnerable in November in the midterm elections without doing anything to address immigration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they're concerned about not having done anything on DACA. That's, you know, the other issue that Republicans do feel they're vulnerable on immigration wise.
--:-- Dara Lind: So it's kind of interesting timing for the House that this issue has kind of been forced to the fore at the same time that there is a totally separate immigration issue boiling over.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But it certainly doesn't appear that they're trying to address it. They're just, you know, Republicans are claiming that Democrats not getting on board with it is somehow preventing there from being a solution to the separation issue either.
--:-- Dara Lind: Right. President Trump keeps blaming this on Democrats. What have Democrats said back to the president saying that this is democratic obstructionism?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: At this point, every Democrat in the U.S. Senate has signed on to a bill from Dianne Feinstein that would simply prevent Border Patrol agents from separating families.
--:-- Dara Lind: The bill ensures children may only be separated from their parents in the event they're being trafficked or abused by their parent, by their parents.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That would throw a wrench in the Trump administration's efforts to prosecute large amounts of people who have crossed into the U.S. between ports of entry.
--:-- Dara Lind: But it would certainly prevent family separation. And there haven't been Republicans who have signed on to that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Instead, Trump is just saying that Democrats are being obstructionist.
--:-- Dara Lind: Since this is sort of a new policy, the zero tolerance at the border, do we have any idea what the long-term impacts on these kids might be?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's been a big outcry among the American Academy of Pediatrics and other medical professionals that you don't normally see on policy issues.
--:-- Dara Lind: And that's because people who study child psychology understand that when children deal with other traumas or stressors in their life, having a strong, intimate relationship with someone can really help them regulate those emotions.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like essentially having a parent there helps a child cope with all kinds of other difficult things.
--:-- Dara Lind: So when you're both putting the child through a difficult experience and removing the close, well-regulated adult who's supposed to help them learn how to process things, you're throwing them off kilter and taking away the way that they learn how to get back on kilter again.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So they're very concerned about the long-term mental and physical health effects of that.
--:-- Dara Lind: You know we heard from David Begnaud up top that he was in a facility in Texas where he was seeing kids who hadn't yet been separated from their their parents and they seemed more or less fine to him he wasn't allowed to talk to any of them but they didn't look you know like they were in agonizing pain have you seen or heard anything from kids coming out of this experience how they feel what they're saying?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We have seen some reports from families who are taking in kids as transitional foster children that they're crying every night because they can't see their parents and they don't necessarily understand what's happening to them.
--:-- Dara Lind: But I also think that this is kind of a ticking time bomb scenario. Kids who are traumatized and dealing with things that they've never experienced and don't know how to process aren't necessarily going to be able to articulate those feelings very well, it's not necessarily an indication that they're not traumatized.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think, you know, we know enough about child psychology enough to know at this point that just because a kid isn't crying doesn't mean they're not very sad.
--:-- Dara Lind: Daryl Lynn, immigration reporter at Vox, thank you so much.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Ramos from This Is Today Explained. You heard it from my mom at the top of the show here it is for me uber is moving forward listening to feedback so they can improve and get better with every trip they're building new features take the stress out of your pickup and working on new ways to keep you better protected and connected throughout your ride you can find out more by going to uber.com moving forward That's uber.com slash moving forward.
