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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the best-selling book, How to Change, Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes, and everyday people about why we do the things we do. Listen to Choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Support for Explain It To Me comes from anthropic, the team behind Claude. Ever have a question where you just can't find the answer? Claude is an AI that's designed for exactly that – those mysteries that need real exploration. It can help you dig into the layers, piece together scattered information, and work through complexity until things start making sense. It's the thinking companion for anyone who refuses to accept, "I guess we'll never know." You can try Claude for free at claude.ai slash explainittome.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Oh, pandemic, I feel like people are still like, "Oh, human contact?" How do we do this? You treat people like they treat you. Kindness and politeness are important. Getting away from me is the energy right now. I'm not even getting pleasantries no more, and it hurts.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: It's Explain It To Me from Vox. I'm Jonquilyn Hill. And it feels like people are way less polite than they used to be. A quick look online proves that a lot of you feel this way. If I'm holding the door open for you, you need to say thank you. You know, if you don't want to say hello to me, just don't look at me. That's fine. You don't have to say hello to me. But I think it's a polite thing to do when you're walking past people to say hello to them.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Today, you guys, I witnessed a woman listening to a podcast on full blast strolling the aisles of Target. Are we kidding? Does that bother anyone else or just me?
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--:-- Guest: Allie Bolby: Yeah, it seems like we are in a weird time for how we're treating each other. Everywhere you go, it seems like there are people who are acting in ways that are pretty bizarre and are signifying that they do not care about other people's comfort.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Google searches for, "is it rude," have steadily climbed over the last 20 years. And even Lizzie Post, who's the great, great granddaughter of like the famous etiquette maven Emily Post, gets this question all of the time. And her predecessors have gotten it, too, of like, "are we ruder now than we were in the past?" And so it's almost a comfort to know that each generation seems to be facing the same issue of thinking the one that is following it is more rude.
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--:-- Guest: Allie Bolby: Oh, definitely. People openly scrolling on their phones in movie theaters, like not even trying to hide it anymore. I've seen someone like smoking a cigarette on the subway. Like that to me seems like really bizarre behavior.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Yeah, I think the thing that I see the most is people playing music on their phone out loud. And it's not like a crowd is around them and they're trying to like, you know, listen to this. But it's just them and their music out loud.
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--:-- Guest: Allie Bolby: I know. I know. And like I take the bus a lot. I love the bus. And like it is every single time I'm on the bus, someone's like playing a TikTok full blast, having a FaceTime conversation full out in the open without headphones. And I'm like, this is bizarre.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: So we have this anecdotal evidence, but are people actually ruder now? Right. It's like kind of hard to measure rudeness because everyone has like a slightly different definition of it. One of the experts I spoke to defined rudeness as a behavior and action or a comment that is meant to be disrespectful or violates a social norm.
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--:-- Guest: Allie Bolby: So everyone has like a little bit of a different idea of like what they consider disrespectful, you know, but there's some like evidence that people are feeling that we are being a little bit rude. There was a recent Pew Research Center survey that found that nearly half of the country believes that people's behavior is more rude than it was before the pandemic.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: And a UNC business professor conducted a worldwide survey in 2022. So sort of like in the midst of pandemic changes. And she found that 73% of respondents said it wasn't unusual for customers to be rude compared to 61% who said the same in 2012. So like that's a pretty significant jump over a decade.
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--:-- Guest: Allie Bolby: Why are we more rude now? Right. Like in that study in particular, the 2022 survey, she found the number one reason for people being rude was feeling stressed or overwhelmed. And I think that is, you know, in part because of the pandemic.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: The pandemic was a really stressful, crazy time. And it was an inflection point because because rude can be defined as like a behavior that like violates a social norm. And when we think about the pandemic, social norms were being created in real time because we had this like virus that nobody knew what to do about.
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--:-- Guest: Allie Bolby: So there's a lot of new social norms cropping up and a lot of ways to defy those. We had a lot of people, you know, not wanting to mask, not wanting to stay home. Also, like we live in a world that's incredibly polarized and it's only gotten worse since the pandemic. Like inflation, tariffs, stressful news. Like it makes sense that people are more stressed and have shorter fuses than ever before.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Do you think any of this is from a sense of entitlement? You know, we're told to put ourselves first a lot, which is good for a long time. People haven't been thinking of themselves, but is that almost making us a little less empathetic?
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--:-- Guest: Allie Bolby: Yeah. Yeah. Like this pendulum has really swung from like, like work hard, sacrifice to now prioritize your own comfort at all costs. And I understand it. Like the world is crazy and it's stressful right now and everything feels really hard. And so one way of controlling that is to to make your world a little safer, a little less chaotic, and to self-soothe.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: And to do that, people are sort of pushing out other people that they see as problematic. And, you know, I think we've taken it a little too far.
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--:-- Guest: Allie Bolby: It can sometimes be hard to confront people on their rudeness, but it's not always clear whether what they're doing is actually rude. How do you know if something is rude or not?
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Yeah, it is so hard because there's a lot of ambiguity. Recently, like I was finishing up a run. I was like chatting with a neighbor and she was like, "Oh, I said hi to you like a couple blocks back, but like you didn't say hi back to me." I'm like, "Oh, my God, like because I had headphones on." I had my music. I like when I run, I'm like very in the zone.
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--:-- Guest: Allie Bolby: I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, I just totally did not see you." I'm so sorry. But like she kind of called me out on it. But like she could have easily been like, "Oh, Allie was being rude." Like she totally ignored me. Like she saw me. She just wasn't saying hi.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Because like there are a lot of times when like people are just like not paying attention. Like you don't know what their intentions are. And so I think it's like a very, very fine line to walk of like telling someone to like stop it.
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--:-- Guest: Allie Bolby: Okay. That's if you encounter something that is rude. How do you keep from being the rude one?
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: My mom will probably be really happy that I quoting her here but she always says like the only thing you can control is yourself and your own behavior. Like, that was something she always tried to instill in us.
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--:-- Guest: Allie Bolby: And that, I think, is the easiest thing we can do when it comes to rudeness. Like, if we just perpetuate polite, nice behavior, like, that is, number one, modeling it for the people in our life, especially kids.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Like, we can remind ourselves that not everybody is being rude. You're like, "Oh, yeah, that guy held the door open for me the other day." Like that was really nice. And like it just helps you remember like this world is not all bad.
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--:-- Guest: Allie Bolby: And like I can do those little things like that, too, to sort of, you know, bring some positivity to the world.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: All right. Thanks, Allie. That was a really polite conversation. Thank you.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: So we can control our own behavior. But what about the self-help industry making billions of dollars off of our self-control? That's up next.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Support for the show comes from Framer. On the one hand, you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. On the other hand, we all know what it's like to stumble on a janky website and assume that the operation behind it is janky as well.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Bottom line, if you run a business, you need a website. And if you need a website, you need Framer. Framer is the design-first no-code website that lets anyone ship a production-ready site in minutes.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: That means that you have the freedom to build a website that is professional, polished, and uniquely yours. No code and no compromises. Built-in AI will handle the heavy lifting by generating starter layouts and the coding behind the scenes.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: You'll be able to A-B test your design, set up funnels, and see exactly where people click, all from one place. And once you're ready to publish, Framer handles hosting, blazing fast load times, and SEO while you sit back, put your feet up, and do literally anything else with your time.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Ready to build a site that looks hand-coded without hiring a developer? Launch your site for free at Framer.com and use code MARKETS to get your first month of pro on the house. That's Framer.com, promo code MARKETS.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Framer.com, promo code MARKETS. Rules and restrictions may apply.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Support for Explain It To Me comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Some questions need more than a quick search, the kind where you want to really understand what's happening, not just get a basic overview.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: That's where Claude comes in. Claude is an AI thinking partner designed for people who enjoy digging deeper. It lets you upload documents, explore multiple perspectives, and piece together the context that might make complex topics finally make sense.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Claude can analyze documents up to 200 pages, search current sources with proper citations, and work through problems step-by-step. What makes it different is how it explores complexity with you rather than rushing to simple answers.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: It helps you connect scattered information and understand the deeper patterns. Whether you're researching for work, trying to understand current events, or working through personal decisions that matter to you, Claude matches your curiosity and commitment to getting the full picture.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: You can try Claude for free at claude.ai slash explainitome. And see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: We're back. It's Explain It To Me. And we wanted to ask the question, are we doing so much self-help that we've ended up actually self-helping ourselves into being antisocial?
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Jessica Lam Shapiro is the author of a book called Promise Land, My Journey Through America's Self-Help Culture. She grew up around self-help, and it left her kind of skeptical of it all.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: My dad was a child psychologist and he wrote parenting books. And I later found out that he used me as an example in his parenting books. So I'm not going to say I was being experimented on, but I was a little bit being experimented on because he had theories about child psychology and how to raise kids. And then he implemented those theories as a parent, but also as a self-help writer.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: So how long have these books been around? So the first incarnation of self-help where they actually used the word self-help was in the mid-1800s.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: There was a writer named Samuel Smiles. He wrote for the Leeds Times. And there was a society called the Mutual Improvement Society, and they invited him to give a lecture. And he told these stories, these anecdotes about working men, you know, rising from poverty into positions of power.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: And it was hugely successful. People love the stories. So he started doing more and more lectures and then eventually made it into a book and the book was called Self-Help. It came out in 1859.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: It was immediately a bestseller. The spirit of self-help is the root of all genuine growth in the individual and exhibited in the lives of many. It constitutes the true source of national vigor and strength.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: So it was like popular way before I thought. And then you can also find predecessors in like the Greek Stoics, which is like, you know, 160, 180 AD.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: There was a Roman emperor named Marcus Aurelius who wrote a book called Meditations. And that book is actually sold as a self-help book today. Like if you go to your bookstore and you look in the self-help section, you can find Marcus Aurelius' self-help.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Oh my God. Every man I know reads about stoicism. So yes, I do know the name quite well. It is essential for you to remember that the attention you give to any action should be in due proportion to its worth.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: For then you won't tire and give up if you aren't busying yourself with lesser things beyond what should be allowed.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Like when I was writing the book, I was like, "Oh, you know, this is Don't Sweat the Small Stuff." Do you remember that book? It was like a best-selling book. I don't know, when I was growing up, so 80s, 90s. And it basically is the same thing with a different, you know, more dire message. Like we're all going to die one day, so who cares? That's the stoic version of Don't Sweat the Small Stuff.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: But, you know, repackaged for like today's happy America. It's basically the same message. So like any self-help book you find today, there's always a predecessor of like 100 years or earlier that like somebody basically wrote the same thing.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: How big is the self-help industry? I actually had to look this up. The global self-help industry is worth between 45 and 59 billion dollars.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: It's also called personal growth or self-improvement, not always self-help. And this isn't just books, but it's also like courses and TikToks and affirmation a day calendars.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: So you did all of this work and part of it was to find out if self-help books are a scam. Are they a scam?
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: This is a very difficult question. I wouldn't say that they're a scam. And then again there are so many self books There good ones There bad ones There bad ones that have some good qualities So like if you kind of take everything as a gospel you can kind of pick and choose like what's helpful and what's not helpful.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: We it seems like we love self-help if billions of dollars are being spent on it. I'm looking at my bookshelf as we speak and I can see a copy of Radical Candor by Kim Scott. Like I and that's just one of the many self-help books I have.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: Why are we so drawn to these? I mean, I think it's a really appealing idea that whatever your life is, it could be better. You could be richer. You could be hotter. You could be smarter. You could be more popular. You could be faster.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: It's just an idea that's very appealing to us as human beings that we could just be more awesome than we are right now or have more awesome stuff than we have right now.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: That's like the whole manifesting thing, right? At its base. It's actually a very appealing idea. And it appeals to me. I mean, I don't, I'm always trying to do things better. I'm trying to learn. I'm trying to be smarter. I'm trying to be more social, leave my house more, you know, be a better dog owner.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: I have read books about dog training. It's interesting because you started out pretty skeptical of self-help, you know, going into writing this book, do you still feel that way? Or have you found redeeming things in it?
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: I've definitely found redeeming things in it. You know, I absolutely think you should always retain a bit of skepticism and a little bit of cynicism when you're encountering self-help, just to, you know, stave off the weirdest ideas, because there are some really weird ideas out there.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: But also, you know, I was in my 30s when I wrote the book. I'm in my 40s now. And a lot has happened politically, socially, the pandemic happened. And those were like some tough times for me and for everybody.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: So I feel like I have a lot more sympathy for like the urge to self-help and just sort of the idea of it, even if it doesn't get realized in the books.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: What's changed about self-help in recent years? Anything at all? One thing I've noticed is that they've kind of become better and more mainstreamed.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: I'm thinking of like someone like Brene Brown, who is an academic researcher and actually has, you know, studies to back up the things she's saying, but also is sometimes seen as a self-help writer. And certainly her books have helped people.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Vulnerability is our most accurate measurement of courage to be vulnerable, to let ourselves be seen, to be honest. If we're going to find our way back to each other, vulnerability is going to be that path.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: So there's kind of an elevating of the discussion where it's like a little bit more intellectual. And I think that appeals to more people. And so they've brought in like a whole new audience to self-help.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: And I think in a way, the books have become better as a result, and they're certainly better and more interesting reads.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: Do you think we're overdoing it on self-help? Like, are we trying too hard to fully optimize ourselves to be our best selves?
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think we're like obsessed with betterment, obsessed with productivity. You know, I don't think that's healthy necessarily.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: You know, self-help books are appealing because like, you're thinking like, "Oh, well, I'm going to go to therapy for years and I'm going to spend thousands of dollars. I could just buy this book for 20 bucks and feel better immediately and maybe get something out of it."
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: But I think we're really losing the sort of community aspect when you're talking about self-help and everything is done by yourself.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: I think when you do that, you lose the opportunity to have a community and to strengthen your relationships with other people because I know that's what it's done for me.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: When I try to help myself on my own, I'm still by myself. Whereas if I ask for help, you know, I'm strengthening my relationships and I'm getting a lot more out of it than just the help that I was looking for.
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--:-- Guest: Jessica Lam Shapiro: And I think that that sense of community is really important. And so many people are feeling lonely and alienated and, you know, behind their computer that like to get out from that and actually make contact with another person or an organization, I think is really beneficial.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Coming up, how to get that community back. Let's be honest. Are you happy with your job? Like, really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown, or one we never wanted in the first place. But still, we stick it out. And we give reasons like, what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: And maybe the most common one, isn't everyone kind of miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for Strawberry.me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, create a plan, build your confidence, and keeps you accountable along the way. So don't leave your career to chance. Take action and own your future with a professional coach in your corner. Go to strawberry.me slash unstuck to claim a special offer.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: That's strawberry.me slash unstuck.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Why shop at Burlington? Maybe it's the deals that are new each time you drop by. Maybe it's the brand names you'll be shocked Burlington has in store. Or maybe it's the quality of the items, the amazing selection, and the newest trends.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: If you like to save, but also like to stay in style, Burlington is your answer. And the question you'll be asking yourself is, why go anywhere else? Burlington. Deals. Brands. Wow.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: We're back. It's Explain It To Me. So we're more lonely than ever these days, and that's partly because of the ways we are and aren't interacting with each other. In other words, our boundaries.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: I spoke to Nedra Glover-Tawwab about this. She's a licensed therapist and author of several books, including Set Boundaries, Find Peace.
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: Needs and expectations in our relationships that make us feel safe and comfortable. The boundary can be verbal. It can be a behavior that you start to exhibit. But it is a way for you to show up in your relationships. Hopefully, save them, keep them well, be better in them.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: So you write a lot about boundaries. What got you interested in boundaries?
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: Well, when I first became a therapist, so many of my clients were talking about work-life balance, challenges with family, challenges with their partners. And one of the very hard things to do in relationships is to be assertive.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: And we started to talk about boundaries not with using the B word of boundaries but about self What would you want them to know How do we manage this situation? Which for me, translates to boundary issues.
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: How often does this come up in your clinical practice? I would say all the time, but I don't use the word boundaries. We talk about their situations. And I like to think of it as coming up with solutions.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: I would say all the time, but I don't use the word boundaries. We talk about their situations. And I like to think of it as coming up with solutions.
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: I don't think using terminology is always the best way for us to work through our issues to say, okay, so you're a people pleaser. Let's do this thing. We can just talk about whatever issue you're talking about.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: You allow someone to use your time in a way that you are uncomfortable with. How do we prevent that in the future?
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: We don't have to use the word, you're a people pleaser. I don't have to give you a label. We're really talking about what's presently in front of us.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Is it possible we're overdoing this therapy speak, especially I think among middle class young people these days? Are we sort of twisting these concepts at all?
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: We are twisting them. I liken it to us using medical terminology in our everyday conversations with people, which you don't typically see people doing.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Like I'm not naming bones when you told me you hurt your knee, right? Like I don't know all of the parts of the knee, but I find that with therapy, people are saying like bipolar, this person has a boundary issue. They have an attachment. This it's this thing without the clinical skills to actually diagnose and help people troubleshoot in a way that is actually helpful and not just labeling them.
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: So I think that the terminology in a way, it boxes it in. It leaves us without nuance. And we're not giving people enough flexibility in who they are and saying that you're a people pleaser.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Are we meant to apply these things, you know, sort of blanket across the board with everyone we interact with? Or is this more about these really personal, closer relationships?
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: Well, I think boundaries can be universal, but they should also be flexible. There are levels to boundaries. You see a lot of people pleasing when people don't have boundaries, and I would label those as porous boundaries.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Then we have rigid boundaries, which we're starting to see a lot of, and that's what you're speaking to. Rigid boundaries is where we have these walls, we have these hard rules, and we keep everyone out.
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: Everybody gets the same rule. Well, I'll tell you, because I have so many variety of relationships, everybody doesn't even need the same rule.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: What's some advice you give your clients about how to set better boundaries? And I mean that both when the boundaries are too porous and when they're too rigid. Like, how do people do better?
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: Yeah, well, with too rigid boundaries, I often find that they have a lot of discomfort around holding the boundary. And so we explore, is this a boundary you even want to have or is this a boundary that you feel like you should have?
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Is this some sort of punishment you're trying to issue? Is this guilt that you're feeling?
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: So very often with folks who come to therapy, they've been tolerating things for a very long time. And so that's why we've seen a lot of overactive boundaries, right? Because people have been tolerating their uncle, their cousin, their friend, their job for so long that when the boundary comes out, it's a yell, it's a scream, it's aggressive, it's firm because we're tired.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: And so we have to think about what are the boundaries that I can implement here that I can actually live with? What are the boundaries here that would make me feel comfortable in this relationship?
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: If all of your boundaries end in a cutoff, because I see that sometimes, the boundary is a cutoff. There is no in-between. It's either we're in relationship or we are not.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Have there been any things in between that help you all stay in a relationship in jobs? We call that a performance review plan, right? So you give somebody some things that they need to do, or you take on some things that you need to do so the relationship can be better.
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: But we are going right from problem to firing. How do you encourage your clients to connect with people if they want to and they're struggling to?
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: We do a lot of scripting. It's September right now. And I'll tell you, this is the time of year, particularly October, where a lot of my clients start talking about their family stuff.
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: And so during this time, because, you know, a lot of my clients, I've seen them for years. So guess what? We can start right now in September and we start talking about, OK, so when you go home for Thanksgiving and you got to sleep on the couch and your sister gets to be a room, what are we doing different this year?
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: What are we? These are boundary things, right? So the different thing that they might do is they stay in a hotel. They decide to have the conversation before the holiday that perhaps this would be a rotating thing, right? Sometimes they get the couch. Sometimes I get the couch.
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: So it's really about being proactive when you know situations will occur.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: We've spent this episode, we've talked about, I don't know, just how so much of life is individualistic now. We've talked about self-help and all these different things, but it does seem like at the end of the day, the only thing you can control is yourself.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: So maybe it's just thinking, okay, what are the ways that I control myself in these situations? You know, one of the things that I think about often when I hear people lamenting about relationships is we actually need more community than we have.
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--:-- Guest: Nedra Glover-Tawwab: And that's why we put so much pressure on the one friend or on our parents or the one sibling. We just need more people. Many of us, we're hyper-focused on very few relationships. So now it's leading to depression and loneliness because we don't have enough people to be kicking people out of our lives.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: That's therapist and author Nedra Glover-Tawwab. We're doing an episode on how fatherhood and our idea of a good dad is changing so if you're a dad give us your thoughts why did you decide to become a dad and how has fatherhood changed your friendships we'd love to hear from you give us a call at 1 800-618-8545 or send us a voice memo to askvox at vox.com.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: This episode was produced by Avishay Artsy. It was edited by Miranda Kennedy with help from Megan Kanan. Fact checking by Melissa Hirsch and Isabel Lichtenstein. And our engineer this week was Matthew Billy.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: Special thanks to Noelle King, the co-host of Today Explained, who's very well read. If you want to check out more podcasts from Vox Media, head over to podcast.voxmedia.com.
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--:-- Host: Jonquilyn Hill: I'm your host, Jonquilyn Hill. Thanks for
