--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Noel King: And I'm Noel King.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today, we're talking about Lionel Messi and how he's transforming American soccer.
--:-- Noel King: That's right. Just before the men's World Cup kicked off last year, we had footy fanatic Roger Bennett on Today Explained. Noel asked him who was going to win the tournament. He said Brazil was the favorite, but...
--:-- Roger Bennett: [audio clip plays]
--:-- Noel King: He said Brazil was the favorite, but I think the story going into the World Cup is that of Argentina. He called it about Argentina and Lionel Messi. That does not make me a genius. He is the single greatest footballer the world has ever seen. It was only a matter of time. But we called him back to tell him he was wrong about something else.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He said America would finally become a fully realized soccer-loving nation in 2026, around the time of the next Men's World Cup. But with the arrival of Messi, it looks like that moment's already here.
--:-- Noel King: God, if that makes me wrong, I'm so delighted to be wrong, Sean. Lionel Messi, week in, week out, is creating transcendent alchemy on fields in this nation from sea to shining sea. Things are getting messy in America, and soccer's starting to look a lot like football.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from the FIFA World Cup of all things. The FIFA World Cup 26 is coming to North America next summer. It is the ultimate celebration of sports and culture.
--:-- Noel King: Halima Shaw passes to Hari Mawati. Hari passes to Noel King. She cuts. Oh, my. It's today. Explain.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ramas Furam, we got Roger Bennett coming up in the second half, but we're going to kick things off with Tom Bogert from The Athletic.
--:-- Tom Bogert: I asked him how messy he's been doing since joining Major League Soccer at Inter Miami. It's going to sound dumb, and I promise I'm actually an expert on this stuff, but it's still somehow taking you by surprise. The greatest player of all time has been the greatest player of all time immediately.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like a month ago, there were real questions about whether the team was going to be good enough around Miami right now sitting in last place. Are they going to be playing in the playoffs? No, no, not a chance. Not a chance.
--:-- Tom Bogert: No, really? Yeah, it's a learning time. Yeah, it's learning time. Whether he was going to be from minute one ready to go or how long an integration period might take.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then his first game when everybody thought he might play five minutes, ten minutes off the bench because he just took a month off after a year in which he won the World Cup and played a lot in France and played a lot for the national team.
--:-- Tom Bogert: He had like three or four training sessions with Miami. They thought maybe he'd be good for ten minutes. In front of over 22,000, in front of LeBron James, Serena Williams, Kim Kardashian. Nope, he played 35 minutes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Here it is. And Messi! What a defense! And the other way! Magnificent!
--:-- Tom Bogert: Because, of course, that's how he announced his entrance to this league. And then going down the line in this tournament, the League Cup, scoring in, I believe, every game.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Played on Messi around Zimmerman. Messi! He is inevitable. And he is inevitable.
--:-- Tom Bogert: And Inter-Miami lead 1-0. Ten goals or whatever, he's top five all time in Inter-Miami goals already, and he has not yet played a league in.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Miami had, I think, something like a million or less than a million social media followers on Instagram before Messi signed, and within 24 hours, they were the most followed American professional sports team, I believe.
--:-- Tom Bogert: Wow. And just like for people who don't know anything about his game or like why he matters so much, what would you say to someone like who just beamed down from, you know, like Venus and was like, what's the deal with this guy? Why is everyone so hyped about him?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Lionel Messi is the greatest player of all time. He is the favorite to win the Ballon d'Or, which is like the MVP across all soccer leagues in the world for the calendar year.
--:-- Tom Bogert: Eight months ago, he won the World Cup and was named the best player. He won the biggest tournament there is to win in soccer and was named the very best player in the world at that tournament.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's the moment for Argentina, but for Lionel Messi. A moment that cements his legacy as the greatest of all time in a moment that will be a memory for not just him, but for Argentina and millions and billions around the world.
--:-- Tom Bogert: How big a deal was that for him? He spoke about this as well, that it kind of took a weight off his shoulders. That was the only trophy that was eluding him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I achieved everything with the national team as I always dreamed of. I achieved everything in my career at Barcelona on a personal level, too. Winning the World Cup was closing my career in a unique way.
--:-- Tom Bogert: He won everything as a player for Barcelona. He won every individual award you can imagine. He won the biggest title there is to win for a soccer player.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Every single event he has ever played in, except for the French Cup, he has won. It is insane. He's a serial winner.
--:-- Tom Bogert: And the World Cup was just the cherry on top to enshrine him as the greatest of all time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How do you go from being enshrined as the GOAT to joining a team in Miami in a league that isn't known for, you know, sporting a lot of stars?
--:-- Tom Bogert: You want to enjoy your soccer. You want to move on in your career. This is what I was looking for when I made the decision with my family to enjoy it once more as I've done my whole career after two difficult years.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The truth is we had it rough. And he spoke about when he left Barcelona he didn't want to leave. Yes, that is the truth that I was excited about the prospect of returning to Barcelona.
--:-- Tom Bogert: That club was forced to lose him because of how terribly mismanaged their finances were. And the only realistic option was to go to PSG in France.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He wasn't ready to leave. He didn't want to leave. And he spoke about that. But on the other hand, after seeing what I experienced, after leaving the club, I didn't want to be in the same position again, waiting for what would happen and leaving my future in other people's hands.
--:-- Tom Bogert: This was a decision that he's made over a long course of time. He's wanted to come to Miami. He wanted to be part of this league and move the league forward and have this lifestyle and have this kind of chapter at the end of his career.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that was something that he thought about. It's something he wanted. This was not a snap decision. And it's been in the works for a very long time.
--:-- Tom Bogert: So he's at peace. He's happy. But as luck would have it, we're in a place where we're happy, not just because of the results on the pitch, but because of the everyday life with my wife, with my kids, our lifestyle, and the way we spend our time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The truth is, we're enjoying this moment very much.
--:-- Tom Bogert: It was striking to me the quotes that he's had and what a World Cup title really has done to both his psyche, to the way that he presents himself, speaks to people.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's visibly lighter with this kind of pressure off of his shoulders, this one trophy that he had been chasing forever.
--:-- Tom Bogert: So I think that this is part of his victory lap and he's earned it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It seems like there's a lot of innuendo allegations around the details of his final deal with Inter-Miami?
--:-- Tom Bogert: What do we know for sure? We know that this is a unique one-of-one deal for a one-of-one player.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So Inter-Miami are paying him between 30 and 50 million, I believe. And those figures will become public at some point.
--:-- Tom Bogert: The Major League Soccer Players Association releases them for every single player.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm rich! The rest of this deal, where MLS could even kind of compete with Saudi money, and let's be clear, they couldn't completely compete.
--:-- Tom Bogert: The last offer that Messi turned down to go play in the Saudi Arabian professional football soccer league was a three-year $1.6 billion contract.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: $1.6 billion. That's billion with a B. More than a billion dollars.
--:-- Tom Bogert: More than a billion dollars. It's incomprehensible amounts of money that he turned down to come to Miami because he preferred the lifestyle and wanted to be here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the way that they could at least help make him whole a little bit here is he can buy a stake of the Inter-Miami franchise.
--:-- Tom Bogert: So he'll become a minority owner when he retires.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Adidas, his longtime sponsor, is a sponsor of Major League Soccer.
--:-- Tom Bogert: He's going to get royalties from shirt sales and licensing shipped.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The details of the specific details there, I don't believe Republic, but Adidas is helping.
--:-- Tom Bogert: Did you know that Lionel Messi's Inter Miami jersey is completely sold out?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Adidas have stated that they cannot keep up with the overwhelming demand with orders far surpassing their production capabilities.
--:-- Tom Bogert: Apple TV is also helping. They are giving Messi a cut of all new subscribers to MLS season pass, the broadcasting for the league.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it's a unique opportunity.
--:-- Tom Bogert: And it's, you know, I've had fans of other teams that complain, why can't Apple TV offer this to somebody for Orlando? Why did they do this for Miami?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the obvious answer is this is a one of one player.
--:-- Tom Bogert: There are no other deals like for Lionel Messi because there are no other Lionel Messi's.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tell us about this team he's joining. What state were they in before he joined and how quickly did their fortunes change after he joined?
--:-- Tom Bogert: Inter-Miami were the worst team in the league before Lino Messi joined.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They had a transfer ban that handcuffed them a little bit in the roster building.
--:-- Tom Bogert: Another part is they had some injuries.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the third part is they were holding significant roster resources open, hoping and planning that Lino Messi and Sergio Busquets were going to join this summer, and they did.
--:-- Tom Bogert: And then they wanted to have maximum flexibility to add to the roster as they saw fit.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They ended up undergoing a coaching change right before Messi came.
--:-- Tom Bogert: The new coach came in. They signed Messi. They signed Busquets.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They signed their former Barcelona teammate Jordi Alba.
--:-- Tom Bogert: So if you're counting at home, that's the best player of all time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Possibly the best defensive midfielder of all time and possibly the best left back of all time all joined this team midseason.
--:-- Tom Bogert: And yeah, they went from the worst in the league to winning the first tournament that these players played at and doing so in dominating styles at times and then getting by with that kind of experience and quality that, you know, only some of these players really have.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Someone from Philadelphia, you've got to stop Lionel Messi from 30 yards in.
--:-- Tom Bogert: All he needs is a gap, a half a yard, and you're going to be picking the ball out of the back of the net.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what's the impact on the league? How is Messi's presence affecting the league as a whole?
--:-- Tom Bogert: There's a whole lot more eyeballs on it, and the league is not going to be able to turn every single set of those eyeballs into lifelong fans.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's unrealistic. But even if they turn 10%, 20% of the people who are only tuning in, only paying attention because of Lionel Messi, if they turn them into full-time fans, long-term fans, this is beyond success.
--:-- Tom Bogert: Messi has played two road games so far in Dallas and in Nashville.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tickets are out of control, and all the tickets that he's going to in the future are absolutely out of control.
--:-- Tom Bogert: Hundreds and hundreds of dollars when he comes to Red Bull Arena to play the New York Red Bulls.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When he goes to Chicago Fire, millions of dollars in revenue for these clubs.
--:-- Tom Bogert: Outside of the direct monetary value that he's going to bring to the rest of the league in terms of club values and ticket prices and merchandise and all that stuff, he's also going to help drive the conversation to loosen roster and spending restrictions in this league.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: MLS is unique to global soccer and having not just a salary cap, but a very kind of strict set of rules and rules that are kind of always changing and difficult to follow along with.
--:-- Tom Bogert: Messi has helped reignite the debate as to whether they should be loosening the restrictions, whether the training was to go off, whether they should start throwing money like this at, you know, there is no other Messi, but hey, there is a whole lot of other really good stars in the world that maybe teams see that, oh, it is worth it if we spend $20 million on a player or $10 million or whatever it is.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm very curious to see his lasting legacy.
--:-- Tom Bogert: David Beckham's lasting legacy for me was that he helped push the infrastructure forward.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He accelerated that progress a great deal.
--:-- Tom Bogert: The hotels teams were staying at before Beckham got here were a joke.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The meals they had the playing services training facilities stadiums all this have been built, maybe not 100% directly because of David Beckham, but he helped accelerate that evolution.
--:-- Tom Bogert: So that's his legacy to get the league to the point in talent and infrastructure that it was ready for Messi.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And now Messi has a chance to make his legacy that the quality of this league can finally really take off and fan interest can come with it.
--:-- Tom Bogert: And is he going to win the MLS Cup on the way? He's got to get there first.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's my favorite storyline for the rest of the season.
--:-- Tom Bogert: Inter-Miami are 14 points below the playoff line with 12 games left.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Every single game is going to be like a final.
--:-- Tom Bogert: They have to win probably nine, maybe eight, depending on other results.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But there is going to be no game that's like, oh, yeah, you could just rest him here.
--:-- Tom Bogert: Or, oh, like, this doesn't matter. Who cares?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like, every single game is going to have stakes from, again, from his debut a month ago in a knockout tournament through whenever his season ends.
--:-- Tom Bogert: And that's, it's must-watch TV, man.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Just plain and simple.
--:-- [Theme music starts]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, you know what the Argentinians are known for, right, Tom? What are they known for?
--:-- Tom Bogert: Steaks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Perfect. Perfect.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tom Bogert is a staff writer at The Athletic. Find his stuff at theathletic.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Finally turning soccer into football in a minute on Today Explained.
--:-- [Theme music continues]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards.
--:-- Noel King: These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But with your rent, frequently, you just pay month after month. You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head.
--:-- Noel King: Not anymore, says Built Rewards.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Built Rewards says it lets you earn points on your rent.
--:-- Noel King: By paying rent through Built, they say you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, perhaps a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and so much more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Your home isn't just where you sleep, it's your community, and Bilt wants you to go out and do things in the community.
--:-- Noel King: You can eat at your favorite local restaurants, then earn more points.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios.
--:-- Noel King: You can enjoy exclusive experiences just for Bilt members every month.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When you're ready to travel, they say Bilt points can be converted to miles or hotel points all around the world.
--:-- Noel King: You can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood wherever you call home by joining built.com slash explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash explained.
--:-- [Theme music continues]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Every day, millions of customers engage with AI agents like me.
--:-- Noel King: We resolve queries fast. We work 24-7 and we're helpful, knowledgeable, and empathetic.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're built to be the voice of the brands we serve.
--:-- Noel King: Sierra is the platform for building better, more human customer experiences with AI.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: No hold music, no generic answers, no frustration.
--:-- Noel King: Visit sierra.ai to learn more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today, Explain is back, and we're joined by Roger Bennett, founder of the Men in Blazers Media Empire.
--:-- Roger Bennett: I think you have to go back to the Boston Tea Party, that rejection of all things European.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think you can make that case.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Yeah, I think you could say there's a moment, 1930, the very first World Cup. The United States men got into the semifinals.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We don't talk about that achievement enough.
--:-- Roger Bennett: We do have a rich and remarkable football history that flows in our blood.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the game of football never really developed collegiate roots, which has been critical for all serious American sports.
--:-- Roger Bennett: And during the Great Depression, it was an immigrant sport played out with Greek teams playing against Italian-rooted teams, playing against Jewish-rooted teams, German-rooted teams.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And during the Great Depression, those leagues just folded.
--:-- Roger Bennett: And so the history of football in this nation has always been there, but it's been one of booms and busts, of false dawns, great prophecies.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Everyone remembers Pelé coming to these shores in the 1970s.
--:-- Roger Bennett: And it felt like soccer was like a Frisbee or a pogo stick or a yo-yo, just a great fad sweeping the nation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The roots were never deep enough.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Our women's team, you know, won back-to-back World Cup. It's often been just a delirious dream team.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But on the men's side, the side of which we've always dreamed of becoming world champions, we've often been far away.
--:-- Roger Bennett: 1994, the World Cup was meant to put the sport over the top. Instead, its growth has been slow and steady and remarkable.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Really, soccer, the perfect sport for the internet age in the same way as the NFL bloomed in the golden age of television and baseball in the golden age of radio before that.
--:-- Roger Bennett: So it's been, all I can say, it's been a bloody long time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You mentioned Pele briefly, and of course, Beckham showed up in the United States too at some point.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Yes. Has this strategy of building American football around a star been the wrong approach? Or does Messi's popularity and sort of game-changing arrival signify that it was the right approach, but maybe it needed to happen at the right time?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, I wasn't here for Pele, so it's hard for me. I didn't witness it firsthand.
--:-- Roger Bennett: And I was for David Beckham. It was remarkable. Flashballs everywhere because the Beckham era has begun at last.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: These things just take time.
--:-- Roger Bennett: We're not just competing against the NFL and the NBA for bandwidth, but Americans love the best. They love the best.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They love the dream team.
--:-- Roger Bennett: They love Charles Barkley leaping up to dunk on a hapless Angolan opponent in the Olympics.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Delboing him on the side of the head as he dunks when the US are already 50 points up.
--:-- Roger Bennett: That's what we love. A little contact after he makes the layup on the way back down the floor.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Just a little elbow to send the message here.
--:-- Roger Bennett: We love the best. We love biblical smitings.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the best happens to take place in England, in the Premier League, in the Champions League on the men's side, in other nations.
--:-- Roger Bennett: And it hard for us to realize that at this point in time MLS is not the best.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So what I say is all of it a star can do nothing on their own that permanent but the context is what's changed.
--:-- Roger Bennett: The internet has connected Americans to Liverpool, to Arsenal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They can follow along every single injury, every single rumor as closely as if they're at the same zip code as fans who live and die by that team.
--:-- Roger Bennett: They're streaming. There's more football available to watch live in the United States now than if I lived in England.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So all of these things play their part. There is that deep convergence now and it's truly robust it's magical it's not a fad.
--:-- Roger Bennett: A messy coming is possibly the crown jewel the most radiant light the most powerful spotlight that the game could cast upon itself and watching it these past couple of weeks has been, it's honestly, it's been something that I have to pinch myself as I watch Messi on our shores, humiliating our defenders.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I have to just pinch myself and say, oh my God, it really is real and it's magnificent.
--:-- Roger Bennett: It sounds like you might buy into an argument that I see being made a lot online and in group chats with my friends, which is that Messi's arrival to the United States is actually just embarrassing because it shows you how inferior the rest of MLS is.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you feel that way?
--:-- Roger Bennett: I think that argument is slightly bollocks, if I'm allowed to say that on your beautiful podcast.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Lionel Messi, yes, is embarrassing MLS defenders with his play.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Lionel Messi is the greatest player of his generation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's embarrassed defenders everywhere he goes.
--:-- Roger Bennett: In Paris, Paris Saint-Germain, he humiliated defenders at will.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When Lionel Messi hit the goal record for an individual, Budweiser did an incredible campaign where they sent the goal number that Messi scored on the front of a beer can to the goalkeepers who had conceded that goal.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Some of them got crates of beer. Some of them played Messi a lot and conceded goals to him a lot.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And all of them posted on their Instagram these cans with pride.
--:-- Roger Bennett: They weren't humiliated. They were honored to be humiliated by Lionel Messi.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I'd almost look at it that way.
--:-- Roger Bennett: And the most remarkable thing about it is that Lionel Messi is now embarrassing people on our shores.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Lionel Messi is now Florida man.
--:-- Roger Bennett: That I can't get over. That's genuinely, that's the most remarkable part of all of this for me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's so much joy over his arrival in Miami.
--:-- Roger Bennett: You can feel it online. You can feel it in the United States.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I did some traveling this summer and I'm seeing Messi inter-Miami jerseys in Europe.
--:-- Roger Bennett: People are actually wearing American football jerseys in Western Europe.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there anyone who isn't excited about this news or is everyone just stoked?
--:-- Roger Bennett: I imagine there's one person who's probably hating every single second of it and it's Cristiano Ronaldo.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Who I imagine is like hate eating an extra almond and then doing a hundred angry chin-ups in a very tight pair of underpants while being fanned with a large feather by an assistant.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Who's quaking in fear, wondering when this temper tantrum will go away.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It will never go away because Lionel Messi, this is the most remarkable thing.
--:-- Roger Bennett: The goals are unbelievable. What is it? As we speak, 10 goals in seven games.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My word, what a start for Lionel Messi in his Major League Soccer career.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Yes, some of the goals are embarrassing defenders, embarrassing goalkeepers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Joseph Martinez settles Messi. Some of the goals are unbloody liable.
--:-- Roger Bennett: There was a goal at the weekend. He was playing Nashville. Five Nashville defenders tried to shut him down.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I saw it. Incredible. They could not have been closer to him if they were like genuine, if he was wearing them as clothing.
--:-- Roger Bennett: And somehow he was able to find a crevice of space and work out.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Honestly, genuinely Oppenheimer would not have been able who do this calculation in physics as quickly as Lionel Messi did to work out the exact angle, trajectory, wind speed, and fire the ball right into the corner.
--:-- Roger Bennett: It was delicious.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So some of the goals are utterly transcendent, but the thing that I love most of all, Sean, is how much Lionel Messi is clearly loving all of this.
--:-- Roger Bennett: This is a man who is a god that walks amongst us.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We've seen footage of him walking around Argentina surrounded by thousands of people mobbing it immediately.
--:-- Roger Bennett: He's like public property. People feel they can grab him, they can kiss him, they can just violate the poor man.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: To watch football is to understand humanity, to understand how humans propel themselves, motivate themselves, experience glory, experience failure, humiliation, tenacity, perseverance, collective, empathy.
--:-- Roger Bennett: All of these things are playing out in the greatest telenovela novella that's playing out live before your eyes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What can be better than that show?
--:-- Roger Bennett: Roger Bennett, he's got podcasts, search for men in blazers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's also got a weekly show on YouTube all about Lionel called This Week in the Messyverse.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Hadi Muwagdi produced, Amina Al-Sadi edited, Serena Solon fact-checked, and Christian Ayala mixed this episode of Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you.
--:-- [Theme music continues]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Fascinating.
--:-- [Theme music fades out]
