--:-- Noel King: Welcome to Today Explained, World Cup edition. I'm Noel King.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Thanks for having me on the show, Noel.
--:-- Noel King: Here's Mbappe! Oh my word! Maradona turns like a little eel and comes away from trouble. Little squat man comes inside Butcher, leaves it for dead. Pele just seemed to hang in the air. A majestic header for 1-0. Mbappe, Pele, Maradona. Try to put into words what makes them legends.
--:-- Roger Bennett: The Uruguayan poet, Eduard Galeano, used to say about Maradona that he dribbled as if the ball was stuck to his foot. And Messi? He told me Lionel Messi played as if the ball was actually inside his boot between the shoe and his skin.
--:-- Noel King: Are you kidding me? A work of arms. This man is absolutely bad line to pure footballing magic. Coming up on today's Explained World Cup edition, how to become a soccer god. Astonishing, jaw-dropping genius.
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--:-- Noel King: Let me tell you a true story. Last weekend, I got an email from a listener who wanted to discuss their problems with me. And I said, look, I don't think that this is about me personally. At least I hope it's not. Why don't you try BetterHelp.com slash Explained? Absolute truth.
--:-- Roger Bennett: As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Find the one with BetterHelp.
--:-- Noel King: The one is not me, guys. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com. That's BetterHelp.com.
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--:-- Noel King: Support for the show comes from Charles Schwab. At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices.
--:-- Roger Bennett: You can invest and trade on your own. Plus, get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award-winning service, low costs, and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more.
--:-- Noel King: King, she cuts. Oh my, it's today. Explain. Are you going to be offended if I call it soccer? I can also say football. I do not care. They're all the same to me. Perfect. Human beings kicking a football. I would watch horses kick a football. It's all honestly incredibly moving.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Roger Bennett, founder of the Men in Blazers Media Network and co-author of Gods of Soccer. This World Cup is a complicated one. There are some positives, there are some negatives. Where's your mind at?
--:-- Noel King: You're asking a gent who's just spent the last five months of my life working on a podcast series called World Corrupt. This is a strange World Cup. No, I am not going to lie. The winner to organize the 2022 FIFA World Cup is Qatar. Allegations of vote buying and human rights abuses have marred the run-up to the competition.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Some fans are even threatening a boycott. Moving it to November, which has forced football to rip up its entire season and kind of jam this thing in. From May to September, the conditions will be unbearable. So with two consecutive months needed, November and December have been identified as the only feasible option.
--:-- Noel King: Normally the teams have a couple of weeks to train and play a couple of essentially pre-season games and work out their kinks. These are going to be akin to all-star teams flung out into the field with very little chemistry. There's a lot of games that are compressed, over-compressed in a very short period of time.
--:-- Roger Bennett: So I think it will be a World Cup of deep uncertainty. You recently co-wrote a book in which you cataloged this sport's 100 greatest players, in your view, which sounds like a very divisive and dangerous thing to do. Tell me about your book.
--:-- Noel King: Oh, it's a ridiculous thing to do. Can we just be candid? It's a ridiculous thing to do, in that the joy of sports is that it's so subjective. We form our opinions, we call them scientific, and then we know how ridiculous they are, even as we hold them up.
--:-- Roger Bennett: But then we prepare to defend them with the heat of a thousand suns. What makes a soccer player a legend? What is greatness is something that can be awarded by football fans in a variety of different ways. And also the game of football is a wonder because, as Albert Camus said, once a great goalkeeper before he became an even greater writer, he's alleged to have said that everything he knows about morality and humankind he learnt through football.
--:-- Noel King: Football is ultimately about decision-making and the crucible of pressure. And so you do see the whole of humanity reflected. And so to me, greatness can come from goals scored within a context of politics, of culture, of history. Saturday, September 6th, a historic day for Armenia. For the very first time, a Turkish president travelled to Armenia to attend a football game.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Inside the stadium, some fans seized this opportunity to ask for the reopening of their shared border. It can be conferred by moments of humanity themselves that are revealed. And so greatness can also come from tenacity, from perseverance, from endurance. There are greats who come from the body of work. There's greats who come from the innovation, the way they've changed the game.
--:-- Noel King: There's greats who can come in a moment of symbolism for their nation. There's been unrest in Iran since the death of Masa Amini in the custody of the morality police. Iran's football World Cup bound team has dared the establishment with a public act of defiance. The entire squad covered their official jerseys with black jackets ahead of a friendly with Senegal in Austria.
--:-- Roger Bennett: So ultimately it's about action, but it's also about context now. Do you believe that legends are made at the World Cup? They undoubtedly are You asked me about greatness And when you think of greatness you think as a football fan of the true greats like Pel An almighty leap by the famous Brazil number 10 Pel just seemed to hang in the air A majestic header for 1 And Maradona, the Argentinian wonder who inflicted agony and trauma on the English nation after the Falklands War.
--:-- Noel King: Schultz came out, Maradona challenged him, Peter Schultz is claiming he was fouled, and that goal is going to be allowed. Which, as a kid, when he handled the ball into the net against my English heroes, and then minutes later scored one of the single greatest goals I've ever seen, destroying the whole team, running through the whole team, slaloming through them.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Maradona turns like a little eel and comes away from trouble. A little squat man comes inside, but you're leaving for dead. outside Fennig leads him for dead and puts the ball away and that is why Maradona is the greatest player in the world and then slapping the ball home deliriously as a kid I went outside into my backyard and smashed a football through my own lounge window and my father who was quite a strict bloke just popped his head out as the glass tinkled around him and said I understand your pain Roger I understand.
--:-- Noel King: And now I have a photograph, I'm looking at you from my office, of Maradona handling the ball, which he signed over my English heroes, to remind me of the memories in sport, which often feel the most traumatic, are often the ones that you carry with you in life. And they ultimately turn into the most wonderful.
--:-- Roger Bennett: And the world cup is the greatest stage it's the most watched they're estimating five billion people i don't know how they actually work that number out will be tuning in to this thing i always think about it like a soccer themed bar mitzvah to which the whole world is invited it's stopped wars it's created heroes and the greats are always inextricably connected to it but so are human beings who came out of nowhere this is the power of the world cup
--:-- Noel King: There's a 1990 world cup i remember a footballer tuto scalacci who was a minor minor character in world football no one outside of italy probably understood this kind of balding wild-eyed striker the 27 year old was the last man to be named in the italian squad on the back of one good season at juventus and out of nowhere where he just came off as a substitute off the bench and scored six goals in seven games.
--:-- Roger Bennett: This has got to be a chance, and it's a goal for the Italians, and Scalacci, within moments of coming on the pitch, has given Italy the goal they so desperately, desperately needed. By the way, barely made the blip again. I mean, Scalacci was just a random bloke who was almost last starfighter plucked out of obscurity to become a world great.
--:-- Noel King: But there are now, you know, thousands of babies named after Toto Scalacci. Many years have passed, but what I did is still fresh in people's minds, and I hope it will be for many years to come. And that is the power of the World Cup. The heroes will be forged in the next month whose name we never even breathed before.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Tell me about one who's playing in this World Cup. Tell me about a contemporary legend. Watch out world there's a new number 10 Kylian Mbappe's star is shining now Kylian Mbappe was a 19 year old French phenom just a gentleman who grew up outside of Paris in the French suburbs which are revered as just a melting pot of footballing it's like a petri dish to just the the number of people packed in there the amount of coaching that's dropped in uh in a few square miles and just the number of football obsessives it just produces a strain of incredible football is none more impressive than this human being who is a blur of speed i've never seen something like this in my life this guy he started to run but like it looked like everybody was walking
--:-- Noel King: And he led France to a World Cup win of Wunder and became a Goliath that stood resplendent over the entire world. Of course you have to work. Of course you have to do, like you said, sacrifice. Of course there is a lot of things, but the most important thing is you have to dream. And that's something free and that's something gives you the power and the patience to do the things after.
--:-- Roger Bennett: And it was magnificent to see someone that young, that skill-soaked, that confident, almost essentially in an American term, point at the bleachers and just hit home run after home run after home run and lifting a delirious nation on his back and carrying it to glory.
--:-- Noel King: Then it's this stage where there's just an instantaneous global heroism forged and kids all over the world will try and mimic and mime and make believe that they are doing the overhead kick that propelled the netherlands to glory in the semi-final shouting out the name of the goal scorer whose name is still to be revealed it's like a telenovela that's being played out live, unscripted with the whole world watching.
--:-- Roger Bennett: It makes a Marvel comic blockbuster movie seem small in comparison. Tell me, who are the heroes or the legends who will be on the field beginning next week? Brazil are very much the favourites. That Technicolor, yellow and green, golden, shining giant, a collective fist. Neymar, Vinicius Jr., Richarlison's done well at Spurs. We know Rodrigo was brilliant this weekend for Real Madrid.
--:-- Noel King: It is just a wealth of options for Brazil. England, as ever, overly expectant of their nation. They got into the semi-final at the last World Cup and are dreaming of going further. Self-sabotage and doom is no doubt their national fate. England are not in good form going into this World Cup without a win in any of their last six matches, which included a 4-0 drubbing at the hands of Hungary, who didn't even manage to qualify for this World Cup.
--:-- Roger Bennett: But I think the story going into the World Cup is that of Argentina Who will have Lionel Messi an aging Lionel Messi and Lionel Messi who late in his career has found a new joy, almost a new freedom, is playing as he did as a kid. Messi, Messi with a record-breaking goal! 2-0 Argentina, number 55. when he's played in the light blue and white of Argentina the jersey there's almost been too much pressure it's almost weighed of chain mail and dragged him down he's disappointed the nation the sight of Lionel Messi leaving the field having been defeated at the World Cup with tears running down his face
--:-- Noel King: I always think that's what Prince meant when he sang this is what it sounds like when doves cry this Argentinian team though fifth World Cup for Messi he's actually playing in a cohesive collective joyous way and that notion of Messi to me undoubtedly the greatest footballer that there's ever been to haters they'll say yes but he never won a World Cup like Pele did like Maradona did that's really the storyline going into this World Cup that everybody's looking at Can Lionel Messi ascend to his rightful throne by winning it all?
--:-- Roger Bennett: This is what it sounds like when the doves cry. Support for Today Explained comes from Chime. Nobody likes fees and complicated banking, says Chime. And Chime gets that, says Chime. Chime is a financial technology company that says they understand that every dollar counts.
--:-- Noel King: So when you set up direct deposit through Chime, they say you get access to fee-free features, such as free overdraft coverage, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit, so much more. Chime says with qualifying direct deposits, you can be eligible for free overdraft, up to $200 on debit card purchases and cash withdrawals.
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--:-- Noel King: Support for this show comes from Macy's. It's almost fall, and that means it's time to cycle your wardrobe to the cold setting. Because while everyone loves a breezy summer outfit, let's be real, layering is even more fun. That's why Macy's Fall Fashion Guide has everything you need to piece together the perfect look for you.
--:-- Roger Bennett: It's your one-stop shop for fall's latest trends and must-haves, curated by their experts. Add a statement shoe to your collection, like the calf hair loafers from Steve Madden. Or tap into your romantic side with flowy dresses from Cece and sheer pieces from INC.
--:-- Noel King: You can even throw in some textural layers for contrast, like a faux fur bomber jacket from Karl Lagerfeld Paris. Whether your old favorite sweater or coat is on its last threads, or you're just craving a new vibe to switch things up, Macy's has got you covered this season.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Find the perfect layering pieces for you by exploring the Macy's Fall Fashion Style Guide. Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com.
--:-- Noel King: I didn't think I'd ever need to tell you this, but I would be a bad parent if I didn't. Soccer was invented by European ladies to keep them busy while their husbands did the cooking. Why do you have to hate what you don't understand? I don't hate you, Bobby. I meant soccer. Oh, oh, yeah. I hate soccer. Yes. It's Today Explained, World Cup edition.
--:-- Roger Bennett: We're back with Roger Bennett of the Men in Blazers Media Network. And Roger, I want to switch gears to talk about your adopted home, the United States. Are there any Americans in your book of soccer legends?
--:-- Noel King: Oh, there are so many Americans in the book of soccer legends. I am a real American. Fight for the rights of every man Listeners who are hearing my accent, I am from Liverpool, but do not be thrown by my accent.
--:-- Roger Bennett: I adore America in the same way Kenny Powers loves America. I grew up in a time of economic turmoil for the city of Liverpool during the Thatcher era, just worshipping all things American. You know, the John Hughes movies, the music of Run DMC, Tracy Chapman, The Love Boat, Fantasy Island, the Chicago Bears.
--:-- Noel King: All of them made me want to move here at the earliest opportunity, which I did. And arriving here before the 1994 World Cup in Chicago, it was a horror to realize that the game I love really didn't have much of a footprint in my adopted nation.
--:-- Roger Bennett: But watching the rise of football in the United States since then has been the joy of my life. In Men in Blazers, the growth of my media network, which focuses purely on football, we feel like we are a surfer on a very large wave. And that wave is the American fan base moving towards men's and women's football.
--:-- Noel King: We are living in incredible days. And so the book is littered with incredible American heroes. heroes, your Mia Hamm's. And also your Brianna Scurries, the African-American goalkeeper who grew up in Minnesota. She was the only African-American girl on almost every team she ever played for.
--:-- Roger Bennett: You see photographs of her on youth teams, always the only other African-American face. And she propelled herself through force of will to play for the United States national team, became a World Cup winner and the first African-American woman to be in the National Soccer Hall of Fame.
--:-- Noel King: Through all the teams that I was on, living in a rural town in Minnesota I was the only black player on every team I just knew that I was on my way And it really didn hinder me at all I may be a different person looking different have different preferences but this is what makes a team great, all the differences.
--:-- Roger Bennett: These are the stories that Pat LaBorte that I hope our young audience really engage with, learn from, and feel inspired by. Are there any American men legends? or do the women have the edge here?
--:-- Noel King: Our women are one of the greatest drivers of the growth of the game in the United States. Americans love the best. We love the best. The NFL is the best football league in the world. Take that, Canadian Football League.
--:-- Roger Bennett: The Major League Baseball is the best baseball league in the world. And the confounding thing about football is we have a league that's flourishing here on the men's side, MLS. But everyone knows the best football in the world is played in Europe. So that was in the early 90s, very confounding for Americans. Why is the best not here right now?
--:-- Noel King: And the women's game, Americans are not only the best, but the perpetual best. 1991, 1999, 2015, and now 2019 for the fourth time, the United States of America are crowned champions of the world. They have defined the field. Title IX does not exist in other parts of the world.
--:-- Roger Bennett: And they have grown the field, pioneered the field in this recent fight for equality, really led other nations to reconsider how they've structured their football. And they've been incredible pathfinders. And we often joke that if our men's team was half as good as our women's team, they could be world beaters.
--:-- Noel King: And the lovely part of this moment in time, though, as we approach a World Cup, On the men's side, there is hope, there is wonder. We have a young team filled with talent-soaked young kids who have all moved en masse to Europe to define their skills against the best, for the best.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Of the 48 players called up to the US men's national team over the last year, 38 are under 25 and 19 are under 21, while over a third are on the books of sides in Europe's top five leagues. Football is flourishing.
--:-- Noel King: As I said, I feel like a surfer on a massive wave of Americans falling in love with the game I love. I'm almost like Kelly Slater, but a bald Kelly Slater. And it's all down really to the growth of football in the United States.
--:-- Roger Bennett: And when this World Cup comes here in 2026, it will finish the job that 1994 was meant to do, which is to make America a football-loving nation, a normal football-loving nation, and no longer like space to Captain Kirk, football's final frontier.
--:-- Noel King: I played soccer as a kid. And I remember coaches saying, it's really going to take off. It's really going to take off. This is what, 1995? You're promising me that in 2026, the United States will finally develop a real, lasting, profound interest in soccer.
--:-- Roger Bennett: I am vowing to you, Nola. that I will be on your podcast, wherever you are podcasting in 2026, or whatever form of technology we are doing in the metaverse, will we still be podcasting? Who knows? But I will respond to you, Noel, and you will say, oh my God, our cup overfloweth with football.
--:-- Noel King: And that's because Americans also love overnight transformation. And the 94 World Cup was meant to turn us overnight into a football-loving nation, as if football was like a yo-yo or a pogo stick or a hula hoop. But it hasn't worked like that.
--:-- Roger Bennett: Instead, the growth has been slow and steady, World Cup to World Cup. And I'm almost grateful for that. Football cannot be a fad. It has to be an authentic passion. And the growth, the slow and steady growth of the sport here on the men's and the women's side has created deep roots and authentic fan culture, incredible passion, propelled by the fact that, number one, it's a perfect sport for the internet age.
--:-- Noel King: Baseball's golden era was because it was so perfect for the golden era of radio. The NFL raised the prominence because it was the perfect televisual sport, all those camera angles, TV timeouts, room for commercial. It's the internet that's connected America to football.
--:-- Roger Bennett: You can become as informed a fan of Liverpool from Los Angeles or Arsenal from Alabama as if you live a stone's throw away from their team's stadium. Game-changing. The amount of football that's now broadcast on channels who are fighting for the rights because they know it will bring a devoted young audience to their streamers.
--:-- Noel King: EA Sports FIFA, the game, which has inculcated a sense of the crazy world of football, the characters, the teams, the tactics to dorm rooms across the United States. All of these things have combined together.
--:-- Roger Bennett: While our women have become back-to-back world champions, while our men have started to play for the greatest teams in Europe and most perhaps significant in the long term over the next couple of decades, while American sports investors have poured over to become owners of some of the big Liverpool, Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea, all now in American hands.
--:-- Noel King: And so the future of the world sport is undoubtedly incredibly american and so american sporting appetites have changed and finally finally 2026 all of the commercial investment all of the infrastructure all of the hype that delirious month that we will please god be able to share together that that now is what will put football finally over the top in the United States.
--:-- Noel King: Today's show was produced by Hadi Muwagdi and Haleema Shah. It was edited by Amina Al-Sadi, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Efim Shapiro. And it was hosted by Noel King.
--:-- Roger Bennett: It's Today Explained, World Cup edition.
