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--:-- Noel King: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Noel King.
--:-- Myisha Battle: Thanks for having me on the show.
--:-- Noel King: Today, we're talking about dating apps, and how they're not working for a lot of people. Myisha, you're a sexologist and host of KCRW's How's Your Sex Life. You've met a lot of people who are frustrated with the apps. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've heard?
--:-- Myisha Battle: Yeah, dating is terrible now, according to survey data. And apps are part of the problem, according to these people that I've met. It's just so superficial, I think. It's just like you're swiping on someone with, like, their only looks. You're not looking at, like, who the person is.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really interesting point. I mean, we've all been on these apps, and it's easy to get caught up in the superficiality of it all. But you're saying that it's not just that. It's also the way that the apps are designed, right?
--:-- Myisha Battle: Exactly. Everyone on a dating app is trying to paint a picture of who they are, the best image of who they are. You are trying to get someone else to notice things about you that you want them to see. I hate the small talk and I hate the ghosting. And then I just find that guys, they think that there's always someone better.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really common complaint. People feel like they're not getting anywhere on these apps, and it's just a never-ending cycle of swiping and matching and not really connecting with anyone.
--:-- Myisha Battle: Yeah, and it's not just me. Fort Worth is not alone. We all hate the apps. Why are we all on the apps? I wish so badly I could block myself from the app store of being able to reinstall these apps. That's what I want.
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--:-- Noel King: Hi, my name is Maisha Battle, and I am a sexologist and sex and dating coach. I'm also an author and a podcaster. What's your podcast called?
--:-- Myisha Battle: It's called How's Your Sex Life, and it's with KCRW.
--:-- Noel King: How's your sex life?
--:-- Myisha Battle: It's pretty good. I just went on vacation for my anniversary, so if it wasn't good, I think it'd be pretty awkward.
--:-- Noel King: All right. So you are not currently dating because you are currently in a relationship, yeah?
--:-- Myisha Battle: That's right. But you hear about how it is out there. Yes. And we met on Tinder. So I've been through the trenches multiple times. This last round ended in a six-year-so-far relationship from Tinder.
--:-- Noel King: Good for you. Congratulations. That is awesome.
--:-- Myisha Battle: All right. So people come to you, talk to you about what it's like to be dating right now. How would you describe it? What's going on?
--:-- Myisha Battle: Things are rough out there for most people that come to me seeking help. And in my friend group, people who are dating, I think there are varying degrees of into it to not into it. I feel so defeated right now. I've been trying to meet someone for years. What more do I have to do before I'm just allowed to be happy?
--:-- Noel King: But I think for the most part, if people are focusing their efforts primarily on app-based dating, they're having a hard time.
--:-- Myisha Battle: I'm done with the dating apps. I realize that it's literally like digging through the trash and finding something that is just sparkly enough, but it's still trash.
--:-- Noel King: Yeah, let's talk about why that is. Because Tinder and Bumble and Hinge and OkCupid and all of the rest of them were alleged to have broadened our prospects, right, and made things easier.
--:-- Myisha Battle: With OkCupid, you can find love your way. And yet, that is not my lived experience, and you are hearing from people that that is not their lived experience.
--:-- Noel King: So what is going on exactly?
--:-- Myisha Battle: In some ways, it has broadened our experience of dating. We see more people dating across race, across religious lines, across cultures. So in some ways, it's taken that whole, you know, you have to rely on your immediate community thing and expanded it to the world, potentially.
--:-- Noel King: I mean, some apps don't even geolocate. So I think where people get tripped up is that it does feel like an endless struggle to mine through all of these profiles of all these people who are now opting in.
--:-- Myisha Battle: It's just like you swipe and you swipe and you swipe and you swipe. And for me personally, like I swipe for five minutes and I'm bored.
--:-- Noel King: And there are some problems with how the apps are designed, with how we're being asked to use them now.
--:-- Myisha Battle: So that's the biggest thing that I see is the struggle is people are just tired.
--:-- Noel King: When I'm on a dating app, I'm looking at, are you sexy or not? Like, let me the fuck know. You have five minutes. One Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi, bitch.
--:-- Myisha Battle: More choices we think of as a better thing. I get the sense that you're saying something else is going on with the apps beyond just there are a lot of people on them.
--:-- Noel King: What has changed about the apps?
--:-- Myisha Battle: So early days online dating was really built on this premise of we want to find you the best matches. You've always wanted to know who's on Match.com And we want you to know it's okay to look We guarantee if you don't find someone special within six months We'll give you six months free We want to create quality connections for the world And that has been actually pretty successful But where things changed was when we added swiping Oh. So the swipe was not designed to help us find partnership. Oh. The swipe was designed as a prototype for essentially a hot or not app.
--:-- Noel King: In both Bumble and Tinder, users see a picture of a possible date. When you swipe left, it's not someone you're interested in. If you swipe right, then you are interested. And if they interested as well then you connect
--:-- Myisha Battle: Yeah There actually I believe a pending lawsuit for this design that has now been brought into all dating apps You don't own the concept of swiping right or swiping left. You don't own the concept of matchmaking. And that premise in and of itself came about because people wanted to create a game and they pivoted and created Tinder. so that has exploded and gamified literally the process of dating but a lawsuit filed on valentine's day argues that popular dating apps tinder hinge and the league are portrayed by their match group as effective tools for establishing off-app relationships while secretly doing everything in its power to capture and sustain paying subscribers and keep them on app and
--:-- Noel King: There's definitely a sense that even though online dating was used for a number of reasons, including casual to long-term partnership, that there's something about how the gamification changes how we treat each other in this environment.
--:-- Myisha Battle: Hey, so why did the apps change? Like, why did they gamify?
--:-- Noel King: Dudes. What do you know? Dudes did it to us. Oh, men. Okay, gotcha. Tech dudes.
--:-- Myisha Battle: We want to build products that get you out into the world with people experiencing something. You know, and this is where app dating is going. They needed to get us all hooked on the apps.
--:-- Noel King: An eHarmony survey in the UK found nine in ten singles who use online dating platforms believe they are addicted.
--:-- Myisha Battle: So everything was free. Free, free, free, free, free. Come in, do what you want, but the dating apps would like to have us reliant upon them for infinity. Because once we're in the pipeline, they can monetize us. They can sell our data. They can upsell us. They can offer these premium features with the promise that behind these paywalls are easier times ahead.
--:-- Noel King: Like, you hate swiping around? Well, hey, behind this paywall, you can have access to all the people who like you, which is a time saver, and it's something that I do recommend. But now we've gotten into, okay, well, we'll show you your most compatible matches, and I'm using scare quotes for that, because how are they supposed to know? How are they supposed to know? We don't know.
--:-- Myisha Battle: There's a lot of mystery. There's a lot of like tinkering behind the scenes that they're just making a lot of empty promises and not showing us the proof that these things actually work.
--:-- Noel King: So am I a success story? Yes. Do they work to some degree? But for the most part, people are really coming up against and feeling how much these companies want their dollar and how much they don't want them to find partnership.
--:-- Myisha Battle: What you're saying about the tech bros creating a thing and then wanting, needing to take our money in order to sustain the thing sounds a lot like what has happened with other tech companies, Uber, TikTok, Amazon. We did a show about this. Our guest memorably called it inshittification. Colloquially, I think a lot of people just use it to mean things are getting worse.
--:-- Noel King: Are dating apps going through the inshittification phase right now?
--:-- Myisha Battle: Dating apps have been inshittified, period. Fully and shitified, huh? Yeah. There's a trend now. I'm sure you've seen this because this is your line of work. But regular people, celebrities saying they are boy sober. That's the straight woman version of it, right?
--:-- Noel King: So do you think that's okay? Like, what do you think about that trend?
--:-- Myisha Battle: I love it. Yeah. I love it. Women, femmes, trans people are most likely to be subjected to harassment and violence through dating. So women are tired. They are tired. They're some legitimately traumatized from their experiences that they've had with dating men. So if they need a break, they need a break. It's, I think, a choice that a lot of people are making, not lightly.
--:-- Noel King: Is there evidence that people are going off of the apps? Like, we're all talking crap about them. Are we stopping it, though?
--:-- Myisha Battle: I think the cycle of abuse ends with Gen Z. Zoomers, over to you. I do. I mean, I think, you know, there's a perspective of their whole lives have been online, digitized, you know. And there's like a real disillusionment with like, wait, this is dating? Like, this is exactly like everything else that I do. This is weird.
--:-- Noel King: And also they're currently in college or finished college and they have communities that they can pull from instead of relying so heavily on the apps.
--:-- Myisha Battle: So right now we're seeing that they're not the primary users of apps. Millennials, Gen X, those are the hot demographics right now. But it could also be, too, that there are other digital ways that younger people are connecting. They're not shy to use Instagram and TikTok to make connections with people, for instance.
--:-- Noel King: So, yeah, I think we're going to see the disenchantment result in some apps shutting down. That's my prediction. Bold prediction, Myesha.
--:-- Myisha Battle: I mean, Bumble is already hanging on by a thread. They're really grasping at straws and trying to add these features in that I don't think anybody wants. And I just think things are really on the brink. So unless somebody comes out with something, you know, amazingly transformative for the dating app space that is not reliant upon swipes, I think we're going to have them for a while, but I think the interest is definitely waning.
--:-- Noel King: Myesha Battle, she's a sexologist and dating coach. How to date IRL, coming up next.
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--:-- Noel King: Can anybody find me? Somebody to love It's Today Explained. We're back with Myesha Battle, love guru, dating coach, author, host of How's Your Sex Life in a six-year relationship, courtesy Tinder. Wow. Myesha, in the first half of the show, we talked about being disillusioned with the apps and deciding that we don't want to be on them. If we're burning out on the apps, what's taking their place?
--:-- Myesha Battle: There's been a lot of conversation recently about our lack of third spaces where people can meet organically. You know, we're generally experiencing a loneliness epidemic and it's affecting people on very deep levels. People are lacking friendships, but they're also lacking spaces where they can just, you know, go and flirt and feel like they have community to connect with, whether that's sexually or, you know, finding long-term partnership.
--:-- Noel King: So I think we are in need of space and there's a conversation about space. And I think what's next comes building out of spaces where people can connect. And I think that bars are kind of out of fashion for people. Not the move anymore.
--:-- Myesha Battle: Yeah. So there's this need for places to also just be out in the evening sober and to find connections and meet. So I think that there's going to be this movement.
--:-- Noel King: But until we get there, I have encouraged all of my clients to not rely so heavily on the apps. to have them going, to use them for connections for sure, but to also live a really rich life and do things that connect you to people in general, because that is supportive of their goals of finding partnership.
--:-- Myesha Battle: We forget that most people do meet still through community connections. So those friends, those invites that you get, accept them. Those random events that are happening in your neighborhood, go to them. And I also think there's something to being in a place repeatedly. A lot of us have lost the space of work, not to say that work is a place that you meet people to hook up with. Although, you know, it has been. But it's a place where you form relationships, you start going to happy hours after work to, you know, blow off steam.
--:-- Noel King: That's a great point. I mean, we've lost a lot of those kinds of spaces in our lives.
--:-- Myesha Battle: Those co-workers invite their friends. Now you're in a group. Those group, you know, connections form into other things. So I think that's really important to realize that we've lost something in terms of community that we have to rebuild and we have to be pretty strategic.
--:-- Noel King: Okay. So I don't particularly like who I am on the apps. I do all of the things that you said people are doing. It moves too quickly. I'm judging. I'm not really thinking about anyone's individual feelings, which is not something I feel good about. So my rule is if a man asks me out in real life, like even if that man is yelling at me from a car or like working on the house next door to my house, unless there seems to be something really off about him, I say yes to a date every single time.
--:-- Myesha Battle: And I'm told by some of my friends that that is weird because you're not going to meet quality men if they're like yelling at you from their Honda Civic.
--:-- Noel King: And yet, and yet, I always, it has not led to anything long-term, but I always do have a really good time and I never feel like a bad person.
--:-- Myesha Battle: There's value in that, Noelle. Like there's real value in that. That the other thing too We are so singularly minded when it comes to dating that we forget that just connecting with people can be fun Learning about somebody who's quite different from us is fun. It's interesting.
--:-- Noel King: What do you do with your time? How long are you working on this house? Like, how long does it take you to redo a roof? Like all of those things.
--:-- Myesha Battle: I don't know the answer to. I mean, you know, I have family who does construction, but those are not questions that I've asked them.
--:-- Noel King: So, you know, it's, I think, very human to want to explore connections like that, even if they don't result in long-term partnership. If they result in fun, I keep doing it.
--:-- Myesha Battle: So, look, I say this. I'm a journalist. I talk to strangers for a living. This does not make me uncomfortable to say, sure, I'll go out with you. But I want to respect that there are introverts out there. There are lots of people who are like, oh, I'm far too shy to do that or, oh, I'm just not comfortable.
--:-- Noel King: What tips do you give your clients for meeting people in real life?
--:-- Myesha Battle: Yeah, groups are really important for introverts. Groups, meetups, recurring activities that they feel comfortable doing. And, you know, the pandemic, again, did rob us a lot of our joy and spontaneity. So it's really important to kind of double down on that again and say, well, you know, now I can occasionally attend that talk at that place that I like to go to, or I can join a running club or a group that works out in the park.
--:-- Noel King: Or, you know, there's so many groups that are fairly low stakes that, again, can expand your community. And to stay open, to have those conversations when you're there.
--:-- Myesha Battle: And for my introverted clients, that's a big ask, right? It's like you got to talk to strangers. You've got to do it. You've got to do it at least with one person today when you're in this group. And then, you know, see where that connection leads.
--:-- Noel King: Again, there's something to being in community that kind of meets on a regular, consistent basis that helps people kind of find their rhythm with that communication.
--:-- Myesha Battle: And even if it's a book club, you know, I have a lot of straight female clients who are like, but I love reading and I love knitting. These are very female. Like, if I join a book club, it's going to be all women. I'm like, yes, but those women have friends. Those women have partners. Those women have, you know, maybe dinner parties that they would invite you to.
--:-- Noel King: That's a great point. I mean, we're social animals, and we do connect with other people in those kinds of ways.
--:-- Myesha Battle: They, you know, we're social animals. So the group is not the end, right? It's also thinking more long term about I'm joining a group. I will build friendships. Those friendships may lead to partnerships. They don't necessarily have to, though. They can be supportive in a different way.
--:-- Noel King: I think we should go back to setups. Yeah. Yes. Well, more people. Okay. My thing is more people who are in relationships should be setting up their single friends. Amen.
--:-- Myesha Battle: In like a cool way, in a non-pressure-y way, but like to be on the lookout. I'm a dating coach, so I think about this all the time. I've even thought about like, can I connect my clients sometimes, you know? Oh my God, you should. Yeah. I mean, a lot of them don't live in the same area, so it'd be difficult. But I had that thought before because it's just ingrained in me to think about connection. Like, who would be cool together?
--:-- Noel King: I just think about that. And so if there are people in my life that I think should meet, I want them to meet. Whether that's two friends that I have that I think should meet. I love a, you know, kind of friend connect. Or, yeah, maybe this is something romantic that the two of you can explore. I think that's great, too.
--:-- Noel King: All right. Let's say you do meet that person in your softball league, right? Right. And you're into them and you think, I want to ask them out. It's 2024. Everything's a little touchy. You just never know. What sort of advice do you give to someone who says, I've got a person in mind, I want to ask them out, but I just don't know.
--:-- Myesha Battle: Just do it. Just do it? Yeah. Okay. And if they're like, no, I don't want to go out with you, do you have to quit the softball league? No. No, you most certainly do not. You can take a week off to lick your wounds and feel bad about it. And 100%, that's okay. But then go back and see who else is there and then be cool with it.
--:-- Noel King: Yeah, no, I think like to be human is to suffer rejection, you know, and it's okay. You know, people are either not dating, not open to dating, they're partnered, they are not into you, whatever the reason. And that's okay. That's their reason. And they're helping you to, you know, get over your crush and move on to the next person because they're not a viable option anymore.
--:-- Myesha Battle: I think it's really important to shoot your shot when you have it. Here's the thing. All of us deserve love. That's what I come back to time and time again with my clients when they feel sad and desperate I know that they deserve love I don't care who they are I don't care their race their ability their age like everybody deserves love it's just that simple and everybody deserves quality sexual experiences too.
--:-- Noel King: I'm a big proponent of like following your joy. And like, if that means you have a weird one night stand, that's fine. It's on the way to your long-term goal of having a partnership. It's fine. On the way to love, I think we all make a lot of mistakes. And those mistakes actually help us learn and grow.
--:-- Myesha Battle: At the end of the day, I guess I'm just a sap. I just believe that people are going to find love. And my hope is that we all do.
--:-- Noel King: Maisha Battle, host of How's Your Sex Life. She's also an author and a dating coach. Hari Mwagdi produced today's show and Amina El-Sadi edited. Matthew Collette fact-checked. Patrick Boyd engineered. I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained.
