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--:-- Noel King: Gentle parenting is hard, even for the super practitioners like influencer Olivia Owen. And when you're all done, then we can get you down and you can go play with the toys. It's hard to hear a toddler out. So we definitely will get in the face of our toddler and ask him how he's feeling and help him have feelings worth.
--:-- Noel King: So we're talking about gentle parenting today. Ahead Today Explained is for the children. Hopefully we don't raise a serial killer. Support for Today Explained comes from Saks Fifth Avenue. Fall is here. Might be time to find some nice new pieces you can wear again and again. With Saks Fifth Avenue, it can be a breeze to shop for your personal style, like maybe a relaxed Prada blazer or Gucci loafers that are great for both work and the weekend.
--:-- Noel King: This is very Sean. This is very Sean-coded. Gucci loafers. Saks says Saks makes shopping feel totally customized to you, whether that's from an in-store stylist or a visit to Saks.com, where they can show you just what you want to see. They say they'll even let you know when arrivals from your favorite designers are in or when something you've been eyeing is back in stock. You can find inspiration for your personal style every day at Saks Fifth Avenue. Today. Today. X-Ray. Thank you.
--:-- Noel King: Growing up, we had a wooden paddle that was just always sitting out, And if we misbehaved or acted out or talked back, we would get the paddle. And even though I think this is effective because we were well-behaved kids, when I first had to try to spank my son, I could not bring myself to do it. It just broke my heart.
--:-- Noel King: We asked you to call the Today Explained hotline if you are gentle parenting. And many of you wanted to talk about the way that you were parented. And we get it. the paddle, the wooden spoon, the slipper, the switch. Were our boomer parents just kind of mean? Alison Schaefer is a longtime family counselor and parenting teacher, and she says, no, they were not. But there really is something to the old chestnut that times have changed.
--:-- Alison Schaefer: The history, if we go back and look at sort of North American culture anyway, We came from a history where the goal of parenting was to raise children who would mind our will, to be obedient. And that, if you think about parenting, the general idea of parenting is preparing the child to be competent to enter the greater world once they leave your home.
--:-- Alison Schaefer: We came from a society where you would have gone into the workforce that was very hierarchical, colonialism, where the power was really cloistered up high on top and you had to mind your will and be subservient if you were going to survive, even in the Industrial Revolution, to go work the lines or to go work in the mines. And so obedience was the goal of parenting.
--:-- Alison Schaefer: And to raise an obedient child, you know, you really had only two parenting tools that you had to master. And that was either punishments, which we, you know, the corporal punishment with the paddles or, you know, the threats. But it was fear-based and it worked. It did make kids become obedient. We don't like that so much. We realize that we probably have emotional scars. We know that it hurts self-esteem and whatnot.
--:-- Alison Schaefer: And what we're seeing now with gentle parenting and some of these other brand names is really a move towards a different goal altogether, which is about how do we raise a cooperative child who behaves not because they're fearful, but they behave because they realize it's the right code of conduct. It's the good thing to do. That's a very different goal. And it's very new. It's very fresh. And that's why we're having this cultural confusion.
--:-- Noel King: So that brings us to gentle parenting, a term that is all over the Internet. Does it have a formal definition? So we know Sarah Ockwell-Smith out of the UK came up with it. It's just simply treating our children in the way that we would like to be treated ourselves as adults. But also if we think back to when we were children, what would we like from our parents and our carers? So if we were struggling with something which perhaps came across in our behavior, how would we like them to treat us?
--:-- Noel King: And the qualities that she would include in there are sort of empathy and understanding, respect, healthy boundaries. And then in her particular brand, there is a lot of emphasis on emotions. We're kind of on fire for emotions as a thing right now. As I look at those and dig into what she's writing, I would say, okay, she's most closely aligned with that backbone style of parenting, the firm and friendly.
--:-- Noel King: So on that note, I would say, okay, I'm in with gentle parenting. I'll give that my stamp of approval from my training and expertise. But then when parents come to me and they say, oh, well, we're trying to practice gentle parenting. So the other day when I was trying to get my kid to get off the swing to come home from the park, I did X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, oh, see, that's not firm enough. That's you're actually being permissive.
--:-- Noel King: So I think it's just being misapplied. I want you to be nice about going home though, okay? We had a great time at the park, but it's time to be nice and go home now, all right? We're going home and when we get home, we will get you some lunch, okay? So when your little one makes comments like, you're not nice, I don't like you, don't take it personally.
--:-- Noel King: This is a perfect opportunity for you to say, wow, you're feeling really angry. You're feeling really frustrated. That's okay. I'm here for you. I agree that we need to make sure that we understand that feelings are facts and that all emotions are fine. All emotions can be expressed and there's a place for all the rainbow of emotions that we have But it the dwelling on it that is the problem where we have research that says you know the more you focus on it the more it like adding gasoline to a fire
--:-- Noel King: So if we're suddenly talking about a child's being upset about something and we go on and on thinking we're emotionally co-regulating them, then they don't learn self-regulation because, you know, we're actually dwelling on the fact that, you know, they had a bad day at school and the teacher didn't pick them and something bad happened on the school ground.
--:-- Noel King: Now, instead of them getting over it and moving on to playing and being distracted and new things at home, now suddenly we've carved out another hour to keep the spotlight on this bad part of their day. And we think we're doing a helpful service. When we say gentle parenting, we're both talking about a way of doing things and kind of a vibe of doing things.
--:-- Noel King: But I'm assuming that there are other kind of identifiable styles of parenting. There's all these brands, but if you're looking at the research, we basically look at four styles of parenting. And those four styles are categorizing parenting by those two qualities I mentioned at the top, which is about firmness and friendliness.
--:-- Noel King: So if you are very firm, but you're not friendly, then you're autocratic. You're ruling with an iron fist. That's the strict parenting that we would recognize. But on the other hand, if you're not firm, you can't hold a boundary. You can't say no to your kid. And you're super friendly. You're like, you know, you're a kind, loving, warm parent, but your kids walk all over you. That's permissive parenting.
--:-- Noel King: And if you can do neither firmness nor friendly, then you're a neglectful parent. And the one that I'm talking about that is the one that we're seeing blossoming that's so important for parents to embrace is that hybrid of being both firm because kids do need limits and boundaries. They do need guidance. They do need to be socialized on how you behave in a group.
--:-- Noel King: But we don't need to do it in harsh ways. There are ways that you can learn to enforce a limit and boundary and do training that doesn't require a wooden spoon or a shaming, you know, those types of things from the past. So it's new tools. It's a new approach. And that's what we call democratic. That's that firm and friendly combination that seems to be hard because parents go, was that too firm? Was that too friendly? Where's the line?
--:-- Noel King: When millennial parents or parents of younger children, so I'm thinking millennial, maybe older Gen Z even, when they come to your office because they're having trouble with their kids, what kinds of things are they typically having trouble with? The common misbehaviors that you see in childhood. So what I would see is things like, I can't get them to bed. You know, they keep coming out of their room.
--:-- Noel King: I have to kiss all their teddy bears. I can't get them to stay in the bed or they crawl into my bed. Or I can't get them out the door in the morning. I'm dropping them off late for kindergarten or daycare. The morning is just a screaming match of trying to, you know, get to work on time. picky eating up and down from the table, won't pick up toys, rude attitude.
--:-- Noel King: And more recently, I'm really seeing an uptick also in anxiety, which ties to parenting too, believe it or not. Have the kids changed or have the parents? Like over time, are the, I have to kiss every one of the kids' animals, they want to get into the bed with me. Was that the same way 20 years ago? Has that always been a thing? the behaviors that we're seeing from the children is because the parenting has changed.
--:-- Noel King: And so when parents decided that they wanted to be warmer and friendlier, which I think is fantastic, that quality of parenting is super important. We've learned that we don't want to have small T traumas with our kids. And there is that parenting has an impact. I think we have to remember back in the day, we didn't know that environment changed a child's development. Now we do. And so we're almost apoplectic with concern that if I say the wrong thing or my kid cries, if I don't let them in the bed and they get upset about it, then I better open a bank account and start putting money away for them to get therapy when they're older.
--:-- Noel King: So parents think they're traumatizing their kids all the time whenever there's a big emotion. So they're kind of fearful of their children's big emotions. And that lets the kids really get away with murder. I think that there is an assumption for people who are not gentle parenting that the folks who are doing it are just they're just spoiling their kids or they just don't have enough backbone.
--:-- Noel King: We got a very interesting call from a listener, Josiah in Oregon, who said the reason that he is rejecting more authoritarian parenting is because he is actually thinking 15 years down the line and what his relationship is like with his kid when his kid is no longer a kid. Let me play you that tape.
--:-- Josiah: I had my kids when I was really young. And that means that for a lot of their adult lives, I'm going to be alive and an adult with them. And so I know that what I'm doing now is making that relationship possible for the rest of our lives so that when they have kids, I'll be able to hold those babies.
--:-- Noel King: I hear so much pain in his voice. That was emotional for me to listen to. You can tell. I really don't know what his childhood was like. But he brings up something really important, which is the power of relationship. And that's why we can't be too punitive, because that does break down not only the self-esteem of the child, but what it does is it deteriorates the relationship.
--:-- Noel King: And we do need family, and we do need strong relationships within the family for a healthy development, and especially in the teen years. Because in the teen years, your biggest parenting tool is the power of the relationship and your child not wanting to disappoint you when they're out and about in the world, because you can't follow them everywhere.
--:-- Noel King: You can't go to every party. You can't sit in every classroom to make sure they're not on their phone and that they're listening to the teacher. So you have to really rely on influence rather than control. Being a good disciplinarian does not mean that you are going to lose the relationship You can be a very good disciplinarian Kids need leadership Security comes with boundaries and predictability and stability and they want to know there somebody big in the house who looking after them.
--:-- Noel King: Because if you're six years old and you think that there's like nobody running this place because you're so permissive and can't set a boundary, and when I cry, I get my way, then I'm the most powerful person in this house, and I'm just a kid. That's not safe. Allison Schaefer, family counselor, longtime parenting teacher.
--:-- Noel King: Coming up, a gentle parent speaks. Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards. These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program. You swipe your card and you get one cent on the hundred dollars. But with your rent, frequently, you just pay month after month. You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head. Not anymore, says Built Rewards.
--:-- Noel King: Built Rewards says it lets you earn points on your rent. By paying rent through Built, they say you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, perhaps a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and so much more.
--:-- Noel King: Your home isn't just where you sleep. It's your community. And Built wants you to go out and do things in the community. You can eat at your favorite local restaurants, then earn more points. You can get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios. You can enjoy exclusive experiences just for Built members every month.
--:-- Noel King: When you're ready to travel, they say Built points can be converted to miles or hotel points all around the world. You can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood wherever you call home by joining Built.com slash Explained.
--:-- Noel King: That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash Explained. You're listening to Today's Waste. I'm Noelle King. We're back with Lauren Nicholson, one of the parents who called in to tell us about gentle parenting her two kids. She's a 39-year-old sales rep for a publishing company in Atlanta, Georgia.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: My daughter right now, my five-year-old, is very fussy about her socks, putting them on, and specifically how they feel. She's very tactile, and mom knows. She's just very weird about how her clothes feel. And so it's like, you want to acknowledge that this is a very big deal to her, but you also need to teach her that this does not matter, and you cannot let this be a big deal.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: So how do you kind of coach her through it, but also like acknowledge like you need to get out of your head here. You need to get out of your own way, child. And so like not overreacting. And how does that present? Like how does that make your morning harder?
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: Oh, my word. She's on the floor crying, going, my socks don't fit right. and then you know her other her younger sister is running around pulling out her hair bow not putting on her socks taking off her diaper flinging it around while you're trying to get out the door on time because if you are late to her school they will literally lock the door and make you go in and fill out a form and shame you into writing why you're late and why are you late.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: Oh, because my daughter's socks didn't fit right. You know, it's like you can't put that on a Google form. That turns into five minutes late, which turns into 10 minutes late, which means I'm not getting to work on time, which means my day is disrupted all because my five-year-old is frustrated over this one little thing.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: And so you're taking deep breaths because internally you're going down the rabbit hole of all of this is ruining my morning. Okay, so the reason that we're talking to you, Lauren, is that I presume you identify as a gentle parent.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: I would say all millennials can relate to being gentle-ish parents because we were raised, most of us were raised by boomers. I can see my mother's face right now. And boomers maybe are more of an authoritarian kind of style of parenting. And I think millennials can relate more as a, we'll call it, we're relating to our kids' feelings more.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: And I think gentle parenting is a very hot button topic because if you go out in the world and you say, I'm a gentle parent, you will be judged like parents will come for you and look at you like what so I think it's more about acknowledging your kid in the moment I think that we parent our kid for exactly who they are I think that's maybe what gentle parenting is trying to accomplish is parent the child you have as opposed to parenting in broad strokes the same way for all your kids.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: But I don't know. I'm not a parenting expert. So how do you handle, let's say, a little tantrum on the floor about the socks in a way specifically that you think is differently than the way your mom might have done? It depends on which parenting blog you've read, which internet mom you're following that day, which answer you want to get.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: That's the problem with being a parent in the modern world. It's overwhelming. The consumption of advice you get, like who knows what we're doing? We're all just grasping at straws. But the basic concept is, I can see that you're really upset about this right now. I'm sorry about that. That must be really hard for you.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: Can I help you? It looks like maybe you need a little bit of help. let's get this situation solved so we can move on okay if I am under caffeinated and tired it is girl put your socks on we're moving forward so it's just like we try to look at our kids and treat them like almost like adults but they adults so we just trying to acknowledge their feelings a little bit more not every day not all day but that the goal in kind of the way that we parent them
--:-- Christy Doak: If I've heard Lauren and her husband say, I see you're frustrated. One time I've heard it 10 million times. They're always talking it through and giving her time and space to talk through it. It is very gentle. And it takes, who has that kind of time? No wonder you're late. You just say to her, Sutton, if you have these pairs of socks, pick the most comfortable socks. You have 30 seconds. If you don't, I'm picking four, you're going to wrap the door.
--:-- Christy Doak: That's my version of gentle parenting. rather than slamming the socks, I do respect that she has these challenges. Who has time to talk it all through? And they do. They talk everything out.
--:-- Christy Doak: Back in the 80s and 90s, if Lauren had thrown a fit about something that you thought was, you know, a bit minor or a bit absurd, how would you have handled it? What did you, how did you talk to Lauren? What did you do? Um, with a lot less talking. I'm just going to say a lot less talking. Probably a lot less acknowledgement of her feelings, I think, and a lot more, this too shall pass.
--:-- Christy Doak: I think now there is so much acknowledgement of her feeling, and it has given her, I think, a sense of entitlement that I didn't allow my kids to have. She's very into herself, and it plays out in ways that I wouldn't have put up with.
--:-- Christy Doak: And I don't know if that's good or bad. I can't think of a time that child has ever been yelled at. Now, in my day, I was a gentle parent. I'm not kidding you. I can't think that they've raised their voice with her. Lauren, I'm not exaggerating. I've probably yelled at her more than you've ever yelled at her. You think?
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: Absolutely. We do. We totally holler at her. We raise our voice, but like the yelling and the like, no, we don't really yell at our kids. We don't. They're kind of, the style of parenting that they have now doesn't have consequences. I took toys away more often. I sent them into their rooms more often.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: Lauren's children and my other daughter's children as well, they don't have, there's no consequential parent, no consequences for the behaviors. It's generally a conversation. And it's generally a let's talk about why did you hit your sister? Well, I'm like, you hit your sister, sit in that chair. I don't see that happening.
--:-- Christy Doak: Do you think, Christy, that it was easier to be a parent when you were raising your kids in the 80s and 90s? I think it was easier to be free of judgment because there weren't so many eyes on me. And so I think that Lauren feels more judged than I ever felt because she's out there and she works in the field where she sees a lot of other mothers.
--:-- Christy Doak: I was younger than she was, and I just didn't see it as much. Judgment's always been there. It's just now very up in your face because people look at it on the internet.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: One thing I'm trying to understand, Lauren, is whether gentlest parenting feels like something that you must do or something that you want to do, because when you were four or five and you were told, look, just get it done, you didn't really like that, and so you're trying to do it differently. Is this entirely a choice?
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: I don't think that we look back on it and go, oh, we were yelled at and we had such a horrible childhood and our parents stomped around and screamed and this and that in a sense where we want to make a great change. And I give my parents incredible credit because I was my daughter. I was my five-year-old. I still am anxious and nervous and type A, which explains why I love all the blogs and the Internet.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: And my parents really did help me. And they weren't screamers and they weren't yellers. And they had boundaries and they had rules and they had consequences. And I think at the end of the day, that's how all parents should parent. Kids shouldn't have, kids shouldn't just be like, you know, out in the world roaming. They do thrive on stability, structure, boundaries, consequences.
--:-- Lauren Nicholson: I think what's happened is, is like most things, maybe this generation has swung the pendulum just a little too far. these conversations are important because I'm listening to my mom talk about it and she will say this stuff to our faces like it's just funny because she'll tease us and we know it but we still do it well I don't think you're doing anything wrong with your kids I do think occasionally if there's something that I think is a red flag and I try not to give advice because I do think that you're a great mom I think you and Greg are doing it the best you can other than all of the talking.
--:-- Christy Doak: And I would say their daughter with me when she has a sock issue, if I say, you have three pairs of socks, let's put them on, believe me, she picks the socks, she puts them on, we're out the door in five minutes.
--:-- Noel King: Thank you to all of you who called in with your stories. I'm not going to tell on you. Victoria Chamberlain produced today's show, and we think she turned out great. Miranda Kennedy edited, Andrea Kristen's daughter and Patrick Boyd engineered, and Laura Bullard checked the facts.
--:-- Noel King: The rest of our team includes Avishai Artsy, Hadi Muagdi, Amanda Llewellyn, Miles Bryan, Peter Balanon-Rosen, Travis Larchuk, Rob Byers, and Sean Ramosper. Our supervising editor is Amina El-Sadi. Our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy, and we use music by Breakmaster Cylinder.
--:-- Noel King: Today Explained is distributed by WNYC. The show is a part of Vox. You can support our journalism by joining our membership program today. Go to Vox.com slash members to sign up. I'm Noelle King. This has been Today Explained.
